So now I am thankful for the 12-step programs, and trust the Lord to correct the traps which 12-step people often fall into -- for example, putting 12-step program ahead of the Lord, arrogance toward people who are not in a 12-step). (bold my emphasis)
I do not like the 12 step program for myself personally, yet it has helped many that I know and love, so I can't knock it at all.
While it is not for me (I still refuse to go to a group that mentions "Higher Power", and doesn't put a name to it), both my brother, and a couple of other good friends have beat their addictions by doing just that.
I know of others who believed that the 12 step was devilish, just because Jesus is never mentioned, and Higher Power could be anything, but reguardless of that, they have come to see that for some (many), folks are being helped by the program.
Unfortunately, many do put more importance in the program, and consider it "the deliverer". But you made a good point about Jesus can be where He is needed, and when He is needed.
If the "programs" (AA, NA, Al-Anon, etc.) can help -- more power to them. I used to scoff at them, but no more. They help bring healing into folks lives.
Interesting you bring this up now because I just told someone about Al-Anon which does the 12 steps also.
I go to Al-Anon and it is the ANSWER I have been looking for for all these years because it teaches HOW TO renew the mind. AA does the same.
Yes, I noticed at the very first meeting that the HOly Spirit was indeed present. Even though the name of Jesus isn't mentioned, probably 99% of the people are Christians and say so (and I'm in a pretty strict one--it's not against the rules to say you're a Christian or that you read the Bible). It is against the rules to preach. But, doesn't change the fact that people are helped greatly and the Lord is present.
AA was started by Christians and I don't disagree with their reasoning not to make it a Christian organization. Probably a lot of people have come to Christ through this organization because one of the steps to recovery is to call someone in the group when you need someone to talk to and almost everyone is a Christian so what are they gonna talk about?
What else? Oh, personally I don't have a problem with the terminology used, namely Higher Power. While reading Of Plymouth Plantation recently about the Pilgrim's voyage to America and their efforts to settle here, I noticed that Bradford made reference to their Higher Power more than once and apparently everyone knew who that was (not Buddah, ha).
One point you mentioned that doesn't apply to AA or Al-Anon is "the 12-step programs probably can't get funding if they allow the use of Jesus Christ." They are actually self-supporting and probably self-propagating too! LOL. They are not allowed to accept outside funds. The basket is passed at every meeting and that's how they support themselves.
So, to summarize, I support them and recommend them highly, especially to anyone who has ever been in The Way.
I know 12 step programs work for some people. BUT...I've been to various ones before (there are 12 steps for every situation) and I come away with a very icky feeling. Way too cult like. Way too Wayish. Way too Napervillish. Just, Yick.
Something is amiss there and I just don't want to go there. Yet it seems that these things are the new cult of choice for textbook professionals.
Personally, I think they are all big dorks who haven't a clue what they are talking about yet think they are doing some big social good by shoving these programs at people. At least somebody is collecting a paycheck I guess.
I'm a big advocate of intervention and recovery programs because so far they show the best recovery results. Part of their success comes from the underlying belief that the addiction is a spiritual disease that can only be resolved by a belief in something more powerful than oneself. This is called letting go and is viewed as a healthy step in recovery. For an addict however, this can be a bitter pill to swallow because by the time he has reached the point of entering a recovery program, usually all faith in God is lost and if not then certainly God is ultimately to blame for the addicts troubles. And then of course there is the holier n thou attitude some church folks seem to exibit to those who make bad choices...
So that is partly why AA n all emphasis spirituality rather than a particular set of beliefs and tread somewhat litely at that (altho the Lords Prayer usually the closing prayer). They believe an addict should deveop an individual relationship with the God of their understanding because in essense that is what we are supposed to have anyways, it's not about dogma, not about pomp and circumstance hell its not even about God just blessing those that think like you do, but an inside relationship with a loving God that leads to a peaceful and productive life where there was once chaos and destruction.
really?> I always thought it was others who were in recovery that helped one another stay strong without the addiction.
I have heard of people being court ordered to go to meetings for a dwi or other charge .
The cultish part I agree but you know I do not know what it is like to have to drink or do a drug without a choice and it must be difficult to find others outside of your group if you have directed your life in that circle .
I mean what do you do really one day wake up and telephone all your drinking buddies and say I do not want to drink anymore lets go bowling instead?
I think AA and those groups gives them others to talk to about changing your life and the struggles and rewards of it . I bet they do get a little close and appear to have all the answers and anyone who disagrees is not welcomed.
well I know it is a long road and people fall off the wagon and who eles is there to welcome you back with faith if not these groups who have been through it themselves?
I have a hard time wondering how difficult and a struggle it is how could I know? but those who are dedicated to the meetings do 'get it" so I encourage those that find support and help in these groups to attend .
they welcome anyone as long as they follow "the program"
well maybe that program is a better one for some than the one the had before the meetings in life like drugs and drinking.
change like that is very hard and people feel lost, they neeed a connection to humanity somewhere to get life going and feeling good about what they want to do.
GS is like an AA group lol I can see that and theoff shoots is the next town neighboring bar crowwd. whatever people need God provides, everyone grows into themselves on a different path.
my friend was on herion for thirty years (very functional addict believe it or not ) now the methodone progrom for life and he goes when he wants to go overboard and be more of a druggie than he is, just to hear the horror stories of how bad the road can be.yet he will never be clean( he is in his fifities now) has no intention of living life sober and some you know lose respect for his choice and consider him weak in the meetings so it isnt a perfect fit for him . He is able to help many in the groups realize alot of good things, he gives them alot of hope becuase he has been able to be married have his own business own a home raise children etc, and that helps many think they can have a better life as well. it is good.
I quit drinking while going to AA. I was court ordered to go. It really helped me get honest about what was going on with me. They are there to share their experience, strength and hope. No preaching. As I learned how other people stayed sober I was able to take their experience and see if it worked for me. When one guy shared how he dealt with the anger, he said, “I get so angry by not drinking I just have to go outside and weed-eat everything in sight!” Didn’t work for me, but I did throw myself into home repairs and my dog, Jesse Joe.
I had experiences similar to you, Rottie. I tried quite a few meeting that left me with a very icky feeling. The bright lights, sitting in a circle, looking at people I didn’t know or even want to, was not my idea of a good time. But then I found a meeting that dimmed the lights; I didn’t feel so exposed. They were set up more like a living room, with some of the chairs in the back. I would sit in the back by the door with most everyone’s back to me. When everyone got up to do the Lord’s Prayer, I would sneak out. I attended this meeting until I stopped going to AA. Every meeting has it’s own personality and I tried a few before I found one I liked.
Kit, I don’t know if the bumper sticker you saw is 12-step related but they do have “thirteen steppers” at the meetings. They are people that attend just to find dates. A “thirteen stepper” generally doesn’t have anyone’s best interest at heart but his or her own. Groups are still made up of individuals.
I have often felt the same way, as you WordWolf, about GSC and 12-step programs. People often share their experience, strength and hope here. Say what you will about GSC, but for me it is a place I feel understood. I don’t have to post, just from lurking I know people understand what I have gone through in TWI. I’ve gained from their experience and strength. They have given me hope.
Not everyone can deal with 12-step programs. That’s ok. For me though, it helped me take an unmanageable area of my life and change it to something I could live with.
Shelly! Welcome back!! I had been thinking about you and wondering where the heck you went. Good to see you!
I think 12 step programs are wonderful, but I, too, understand the ickyness feeling in them. My ex-husband was a crack head, so I went to a co-dependent group. It was the worst. It seemed like everybody was there just to bitch, cry, and complaine. I wanted to go beyond that, and this group didn't allow that. I don't think I was really co-dependent though. I never tried to hide or enable his doings. I sure didn't know what to do about it though. So I ended up divorcing him because he couldn't participate in the marriage like he should.
HI SHELLY! I remember you! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm glad that you and Wayfer understand the ickiness feeling, but I do understand that they all may not be like that. I guess it's like a church, some are a better fit than others.
So, I guess what I glean from this thread is, 1) It is nice to be remembered, and missed! 2) Avoid icky feelings at ALL costs, but do what you have to do. Which is why I hadn’t been posting for 11 months. (Well, that, and becoming too lazy to type out my thoughts.) I become emotionally involved with a particular poster and I didn’t like what I was becoming. You would think they have 12-step programs for that? -->
Okay Shell, I don't know what you have been going through but I sure am GLAD to see you back. Please try to make it an occasional habit! I missed your honesty and posts.
I read a book called "High Bottom Drunk" about a guy's tries to get sober before joining AA and how he felt odd going to the meetings and hated them, but kept going until he found a group he did like and people he did relate with who didn't talk about God all the time and just fit his goals and ways of thinking.
I bought it off the website of the author pretty cheap and he even signed it. It's a great book.
I went to a graditude meeting this A.M. It is my favorite cause it's focus is on graditude. The group I attend is non-judgemental and fun loving bunch of folks that are managing their lives through 12 steps. I laugh my a@@ off every Sunday about the stories of hope. So many share in a humorous way and you walk out of the meeting blessed and supported.
I quiet going to Thursday nite closed meetings cause the women that attend are therapist in recovery. So the flavor is more of a "we will fix you/your not being honest/intervention" therapy session. It has no place in a Bill W. meeting.
I attended AA for 3 months befor I got sober. It was the best neturally spiritual place I could fine and feel safe. I liked that there was no religious overtones. It afforded me the time I needed to heal and find my own way spiritually .
So in all organizations you have the good and the not so good. I found what fit for me and am one thankful alcoholic.
A. A. does work. My group had 3 ministers in it at one point, with one constantly quoting from the bible. He also quotes Dr. Phil. Overcomers is a christen group that works for some people. A. A. is self-supporting so as not to be unduly influenced by anybody.
Therapists are recovering alcoholics, too. A good meeting, imho, doesn't have "cross talk" where people talk to you about your issue to the whole room. I don't like that and it's not suppose to be like that. I will comment on something somebody says in how I relate to it, but not speak the person's name. I was in an A. A. group for about 3 years that was cultish imho because everything revolved around it. I spent at least 4 nights a week at a meeting of an hour to an hour and half, sometimes going to coffee afterwards. I spent a lot of my extra time at events sponsored by A. A. and also extra money for those.
I pulled away when I got married the second time. It helps to listen to the solutions and to observe the examples you don't want to be. Not drinking or drugging is just the beginning of recovery. Learning to live and function without addictive behavior is the part that keeps you sober along with believing in a "higher Power" which many choose to call God.A. A. has some good ideas and has helped a lot of people. You just have to have a sense of "self" of what is healthy and what is not. They say to exercise at least 4 times a week to gain fitness and I was trying to gain serenity at the time. I can't fault the people I let influence me in A. A. I will not go into details here. There were some untoward experiences that I walked away from here in Lincoln. I don't like to listen to people trash A. A. that don't like it after a certain point in time. If someone always brings it up negatively than I ask them to talk about something else. We have to find our own way.Here, on this thread, sharing about not liking it is fine. I'm talking about every time I see somebody. I am super picky about where I go to meetings at. I don't have a sponsor which is suppose to be a major "no, no" and I won't until I find the right person. Not someone who will think she will run my life. STEP 3: Came to believe in a power greater than yourself and turned your will and life over to that power. Great step! Good topic!
Since many here have struggled with this in their life I want to ask question . I am chubby but not to fat to function in a manner that gets the job done in life. I can buy from stores and fit in my car etc. I have enough energy to last at a physical job. but I over eat .
alcohol abuse is different most can not do what they want to do if they are drunk . it is illegal and difficult to get or keep a job becuase others do not trust your judgement. It messes up your real life with your relationships .
my question is why. why do people want to get drunk or do drugs? I have been a little drunk relaxed you know a little loud and silly. but I would never go to the point of not knowing what I am doing or being able to safetly drive a car etc.
I know after a while it can be physical , and that has to be oover come. alcohol is a depressant it just makes you sadder if it is to forget and I do not forget anything if I have a couple of beers so I do not get it .
why if alcohol is messing up your life why do you still drink?
I like food so I over eat but I do not think it is for the flavor is it? why is it so difficult to say Im not doing that agin?
is it your friends? that cant be it as many hide the problem and drink alone .
it can not be social pressure I do not drink and my friends and family like me and I am welcomed drinking tea or water where ever I go .
I do not think it is always self esteem issues where people are shy either snd need a drink to "open up" .
what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?
I smoke I do not like that and I have been unable to quit but it does not change me or get me into trouble .
oneyedjackswild1 here... remember i sent ya those hooter girls about two years ago! :D-->
I did the 12 step.
Had a wonderful sponser.
I just could not dig the religious overtures the lords prayer and holding hands. AA was very cultish to me especially after being labled possesed by liviathan by a Reverend. That was in 95 when I was told at that ROA i could not be a twig co any mo because of my drinking.I was drinking heavy to become numb all that i saw going on in twi.
Yepper AA helped me. I told my sponsor what I was previously involved and he seemed to understand and placed his right hand on my right shoulder and prayed for me. I will never forget that moment of intercession to this present day.
But I could not go on with AA because of its structure seemed to me TWI in essence. I was with them for a year. Had to leave because that adventure seemed to stop short my 20 years TWI.
Hi, MJ, you asked, “my question is why. why do people want to get drunk or do drugs?”
I can’t speak for others, but for me it was because it felt good. It sure as hell beat the alternative. Wasn’t happy and drinking helped me avoid dealing with that unhappiness. Of course, you couldn’t have told me I wasn’t happy. But I wasn’t.
“alcohol is a depressant it just makes you sadder…”
Very true. But I wouldn’t accept that. I even had blood work done hoping there was something physical that explained why I was so depressed all the time. If I admitted I was depressed because of the drinking I would have had to give up “my best friend.”
”why if alcohol is messing up your life why do you still drink?”
I kept drinking because even though alcohol was messing up my life, it was better than dealing with the simmering rage I always felt inside. I didn’t like me drunk, but I didn’t like me sober any better. Actually, I liked me sober even less. I finally made staying sober more important than me. It wasn’t until two years after I stopped drinking my anger began to dissolve. But that is another topic.
”why is it so difficult to say Im not doing that agin? is it your friends? that cant be it as many hide the problem and drink alone .”
No, it was never my friends. But to say I’m not going to do it again, which I did often, is saying that now I am going to deal with Shelly. I hated Shelly. It was easier to drink.
”it can not be social pressure I do not drink and my friends and family like me and I am welcomed drinking tea or water where ever I go .”
Your family and friends know you as a nondrinker. Imagine if your relationship with then was based on eating steak dinners. Now imagine you have gone vegan.
”I do not think it is always self esteem issues where people are shy either snd need a drink to "open up" .”
You are probably right. With me, however, it was self esteem issues.
”what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?”
Instant gratification. You don’t have to work for anything. You just drink and, BAM!, instant gratification.
”I smoke I do not like that and I have been unable to quit but it does not change me or get me into trouble .”
True. Plus with smoking you don’t wake up with a hang over AND you remember what you did the night before.
”is it a desire like smoking?”
For me it was/is. It is still instant gratification. Why deal with the frustration and anxiety of not doing something, when all I have to do in order to feel better is keep doing it?
Thanks for asking, MJ. I never want to forget why I drank, or why I stopped drinking. You helped me do that.
Thanks for your honesty, Shelly, and welcome back to GS, how ever long you might stay. :)-->I've missed your insights around here!
As for AA, NA, etc., hey, whatever works is a good thing! They might not be everyone's cup of tea, but 12-step programs have helped an awful lot of people beat their addictions.
thanks shelly that was good just one more question. you said imagine my friends new me as a steak eater and i turned veg.
I hear you put Im a social person and I meet new people join new clubs and have new neighbors meet new family member all the time and they never Knew me as sober or drunk but they like me ( I think) what Im saying is that is the part I do not get about folks who say they drink for social reasons... that it helps them get along or every one knows them as a drinker... well if you have favorite bar and it is all about booze I suppose but life isnt like that and no one lives in such a small place they would only accept you as a drunk you know?
it might be because you think that is the only way you can meet or be accepted but it isnt. I dress up and I look like a different person from my work clothes and It doesnt matter to me if Im in jeans and a tee or a suit I am still me, booze doesnt allow a person to be comfortable with themselves and then I think they forget that is is them people love without the alochol because they feel different sober. very sad. I also think drunk people hurt one another alot being stupid under the influence and saying or doing things they normaly would not and that causes guilt that makes you want to drink to forget and then it can happen again. I hate hanging out with drunk people I know they are foolish and stupid and often mean out of the chemical .
yes quiting any habit is difficult like posting! but I know it can be done congrats shelly.
“. . . . why do people want to get drunk or do drugs? I have been a little drunk relaxed you know a little loud and silly. but I would never go to the point of not knowing what I am doing or being able to safetly drive a car etc. I know after a while it can be physical , and that has to be oover come. alcohol is a depressant it just makes you sadder if it is to forget and I do not forget anything if I have a couple of beers so I do not get it.”
I don’t drink and drive. In the Navy I learned that getting drunk and doing something usually gets you in trouble and gets you labeled “alcoholic”. They really trained us well. There are a lot of 'social-drinkers' but such are the young men. And they will get in trouble for their in-discretions. I am one of the old guys, who when we tie-up to a pier, sits down just off of the pier, maybe under a tree, with a brocery bag of fifths. (It is against regs to drink on the piers, or on-board, and I dont want to walk far. The farther you have to walk at night, the more likely you will stumble and trip over something. Once you need stitches, if you have alcohol in your system, then you need treatment. So the safest thing is to avoid the EM club, and avoid driving. Just walk to the end of the pier and sit under a tree, within full-sight of the sub).
Beer is silly, it don’t do nothing. You ‘rent it’. Whiskey, Rum, vodka, Tequila, even ever-clear works much better. And I dont have to work for hours to get ‘there’.
“why if alcohol is messing up your life why do you still drink?”
Sometimes watching the news gets me so mad, or it could be anything; I have known so many good friends whose lives have been ....ed away. I was a part of ruining some good men’s lives, and I was a part of the mechanism that caused the deaths of many others. It does not take much for me to get ‘down’ and when I do, I just get angry. I get worked up, I shout and scream. Most of the time, I can focus on doing something. But at night, when things get quite I need help. I drink enough so that I can sleep.
“is it your friends? that cant be it as many hide the problem and drink alone”
I drink alone. So do many of my friends. So maybe you could say that 'really' we drink socially, just not together at the same time. We each drink seperately, all of us.
“I do not think it is always self esteem issues where people are shy either snd need a drink to "open up". “
I don’t ‘feel’ right in social settings. I certainly have been in bars. But I just don’t feel comfortable in them. I feel like an ‘outsider’ whenever I walk into one. Even at my retirement party. I bought a keg and reserved the back room at the EM club at Capodichino Italy. Others who showed up, had a good time, some got drunk and danced, I poured. When in a ‘social’ settings, I feel like I need to be alert and aware of what is happening around me. In recent years, most of the time when I have been in bars I have been in uniform armed and have been on ‘duty’.
“what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?”
When I get drunk it is something I want, and I want it right then and there. For me I guess it is mostly just to suppress the anger.
Shelly-
“can’t speak for others, but for me it was because it felt good. It sure as hell beat the alternative. Wasn’t happy and drinking helped me avoid dealing with that unhappiness.”
Same here.
“what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?”
Instant gratification. You don’t have to work for anything. You just drink and, BAM!, instant gratification.”
Thanks to God, AA, and my own willingness and hard work, I celebrated 15 years of sobriety on July 13th.
There is nothing in AA that dissallows Jesus Christ as a part of your "program". However many folks have been burned or percieve to have been burned by Christianity that it sometimes "seems" like AA is anti-Christian. ( A few AA folks are indeed anti-Christian and are less tolerant than the Christian's they despise) I once attend an AA meeting in Chicago, where a person was called down by the meeting "chairperson" for saying that Jesus was his higher power, but others were allowed to say anything they wanted about their "higher power". Interesting for an organizatin that started out by hittng folks over the head with the Bible ( figurtatively)
AA's Big Book says that it is "God as we (individually) understand him". So that allows for a person to adopt any concept of God or a higer power that a person wishes, including a door knob, nature, Allah or Jesus. No concept of God or of a higher power, according to AA's "Big Book" or other official material, is disallowed or promoted. You decide for yourself.
I think the whole idea here is that alcohol, drugs, etc is kicking your butt and you need to get humble and admit that you can't shake it alone, and that help must come from a power greater that yourself ( whatever you conceive that power to be).
Yeah, some AA groups can be a bit cultish where some enthusisastic and misguided members attempt to define God for everyone else, but I don't pay much attention to those folks. And hey, if the group holds hands as says the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting, just leave the meeting before that starts. That's what I used to do.
And some AA members seem to try to (and do) make the group itself the higher power not only for themselves but for everyone else as well. These are the folks who after 10 years of sobriety think they will get drunk and die if they don't attend 5 AA meetings per week. (Meeting dependants I like to call them). But better that than having them drunk and on the streets driving. I dont pay much attention to these folks either.
I guess what I am saying is that each AA or 12 step group has it's own "flavor" and like most other religious organizations there will be zealots and power mongers who try to run the show (especially in the larger groups).
However, in spite of it's flaws AA has probably been responsible for more folks recovering from Alcohol and Drug abuse than anything out there, including well meaning Christain organizations.
I highly reccomend AA for anyone who wants to quit abusive drinking and druging, especially when it is messing up their lives.
But for those whose haven't "hit bottom" yet, nothing seems to work to well, including AA and other 12 step programs. Usually is is pretty futile to try to convince an alcoholic to quit drinking when they don't think they have a drinking problem.
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dmiller
I do not like the 12 step program for myself personally, yet it has helped many that I know and love, so I can't knock it at all.
While it is not for me (I still refuse to go to a group that mentions "Higher Power", and doesn't put a name to it), both my brother, and a couple of other good friends have beat their addictions by doing just that.
I know of others who believed that the 12 step was devilish, just because Jesus is never mentioned, and Higher Power could be anything, but reguardless of that, they have come to see that for some (many), folks are being helped by the program.
Unfortunately, many do put more importance in the program, and consider it "the deliverer". But you made a good point about Jesus can be where He is needed, and when He is needed.
If the "programs" (AA, NA, Al-Anon, etc.) can help -- more power to them. I used to scoff at them, but no more. They help bring healing into folks lives.
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waterbuffalo
Kit,
Interesting you bring this up now because I just told someone about Al-Anon which does the 12 steps also.
I go to Al-Anon and it is the ANSWER I have been looking for for all these years because it teaches HOW TO renew the mind. AA does the same.
Yes, I noticed at the very first meeting that the HOly Spirit was indeed present. Even though the name of Jesus isn't mentioned, probably 99% of the people are Christians and say so (and I'm in a pretty strict one--it's not against the rules to say you're a Christian or that you read the Bible). It is against the rules to preach. But, doesn't change the fact that people are helped greatly and the Lord is present.
AA was started by Christians and I don't disagree with their reasoning not to make it a Christian organization. Probably a lot of people have come to Christ through this organization because one of the steps to recovery is to call someone in the group when you need someone to talk to and almost everyone is a Christian so what are they gonna talk about?
What else? Oh, personally I don't have a problem with the terminology used, namely Higher Power. While reading Of Plymouth Plantation recently about the Pilgrim's voyage to America and their efforts to settle here, I noticed that Bradford made reference to their Higher Power more than once and apparently everyone knew who that was (not Buddah, ha).
One point you mentioned that doesn't apply to AA or Al-Anon is "the 12-step programs probably can't get funding if they allow the use of Jesus Christ." They are actually self-supporting and probably self-propagating too! LOL. They are not allowed to accept outside funds. The basket is passed at every meeting and that's how they support themselves.
So, to summarize, I support them and recommend them highly, especially to anyone who has ever been in The Way.
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WordWolf
I've compared the GSC to 12-step programs for survivors of experiences
to people before....
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Kit Sober
12-step program isn't on the United Way or other non-profit fundings?
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RottieGrrrl
I know 12 step programs work for some people. BUT...I've been to various ones before (there are 12 steps for every situation) and I come away with a very icky feeling. Way too cult like. Way too Wayish. Way too Napervillish. Just, Yick.
Something is amiss there and I just don't want to go there. Yet it seems that these things are the new cult of choice for textbook professionals.
Personally, I think they are all big dorks who haven't a clue what they are talking about yet think they are doing some big social good by shoving these programs at people. At least somebody is collecting a paycheck I guess.
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herbiejuan
I'm a big advocate of intervention and recovery programs because so far they show the best recovery results. Part of their success comes from the underlying belief that the addiction is a spiritual disease that can only be resolved by a belief in something more powerful than oneself. This is called letting go and is viewed as a healthy step in recovery. For an addict however, this can be a bitter pill to swallow because by the time he has reached the point of entering a recovery program, usually all faith in God is lost and if not then certainly God is ultimately to blame for the addicts troubles. And then of course there is the holier n thou attitude some church folks seem to exibit to those who make bad choices...
So that is partly why AA n all emphasis spirituality rather than a particular set of beliefs and tread somewhat litely at that (altho the Lords Prayer usually the closing prayer). They believe an addict should deveop an individual relationship with the God of their understanding because in essense that is what we are supposed to have anyways, it's not about dogma, not about pomp and circumstance hell its not even about God just blessing those that think like you do, but an inside relationship with a loving God that leads to a peaceful and productive life where there was once chaos and destruction.
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mj412
do the people that run the AA meeting get paid?
really?> I always thought it was others who were in recovery that helped one another stay strong without the addiction.
I have heard of people being court ordered to go to meetings for a dwi or other charge .
The cultish part I agree but you know I do not know what it is like to have to drink or do a drug without a choice and it must be difficult to find others outside of your group if you have directed your life in that circle .
I mean what do you do really one day wake up and telephone all your drinking buddies and say I do not want to drink anymore lets go bowling instead?
I think AA and those groups gives them others to talk to about changing your life and the struggles and rewards of it . I bet they do get a little close and appear to have all the answers and anyone who disagrees is not welcomed.
well I know it is a long road and people fall off the wagon and who eles is there to welcome you back with faith if not these groups who have been through it themselves?
I have a hard time wondering how difficult and a struggle it is how could I know? but those who are dedicated to the meetings do 'get it" so I encourage those that find support and help in these groups to attend .
they welcome anyone as long as they follow "the program"
well maybe that program is a better one for some than the one the had before the meetings in life like drugs and drinking.
change like that is very hard and people feel lost, they neeed a connection to humanity somewhere to get life going and feeling good about what they want to do.
GS is like an AA group lol I can see that and theoff shoots is the next town neighboring bar crowwd. whatever people need God provides, everyone grows into themselves on a different path.
my friend was on herion for thirty years (very functional addict believe it or not ) now the methodone progrom for life and he goes when he wants to go overboard and be more of a druggie than he is, just to hear the horror stories of how bad the road can be.yet he will never be clean( he is in his fifities now) has no intention of living life sober and some you know lose respect for his choice and consider him weak in the meetings so it isnt a perfect fit for him . He is able to help many in the groups realize alot of good things, he gives them alot of hope becuase he has been able to be married have his own business own a home raise children etc, and that helps many think they can have a better life as well. it is good.
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Shelly
I quit drinking while going to AA. I was court ordered to go. It really helped me get honest about what was going on with me. They are there to share their experience, strength and hope. No preaching. As I learned how other people stayed sober I was able to take their experience and see if it worked for me. When one guy shared how he dealt with the anger, he said, “I get so angry by not drinking I just have to go outside and weed-eat everything in sight!” Didn’t work for me, but I did throw myself into home repairs and my dog, Jesse Joe.
I had experiences similar to you, Rottie. I tried quite a few meeting that left me with a very icky feeling. The bright lights, sitting in a circle, looking at people I didn’t know or even want to, was not my idea of a good time. But then I found a meeting that dimmed the lights; I didn’t feel so exposed. They were set up more like a living room, with some of the chairs in the back. I would sit in the back by the door with most everyone’s back to me. When everyone got up to do the Lord’s Prayer, I would sneak out. I attended this meeting until I stopped going to AA. Every meeting has it’s own personality and I tried a few before I found one I liked.
Kit, I don’t know if the bumper sticker you saw is 12-step related but they do have “thirteen steppers” at the meetings. They are people that attend just to find dates. A “thirteen stepper” generally doesn’t have anyone’s best interest at heart but his or her own. Groups are still made up of individuals.
I have often felt the same way, as you WordWolf, about GSC and 12-step programs. People often share their experience, strength and hope here. Say what you will about GSC, but for me it is a place I feel understood. I don’t have to post, just from lurking I know people understand what I have gone through in TWI. I’ve gained from their experience and strength. They have given me hope.
Not everyone can deal with 12-step programs. That’s ok. For me though, it helped me take an unmanageable area of my life and change it to something I could live with.
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Nottawayfer
Shelly! Welcome back!! I had been thinking about you and wondering where the heck you went. Good to see you!
I think 12 step programs are wonderful, but I, too, understand the ickyness feeling in them. My ex-husband was a crack head, so I went to a co-dependent group. It was the worst. It seemed like everybody was there just to bitch, cry, and complaine. I wanted to go beyond that, and this group didn't allow that. I don't think I was really co-dependent though. I never tried to hide or enable his doings. I sure didn't know what to do about it though. So I ended up divorcing him because he couldn't participate in the marriage like he should.
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RottieGrrrl
HI SHELLY! I remember you! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I'm glad that you and Wayfer understand the ickiness feeling, but I do understand that they all may not be like that. I guess it's like a church, some are a better fit than others.
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dmiller
Amen to that. Some churches have more comfortable pews than others. Makes it worthwhile to check them all out, programs as well as churches!
;)-->
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Shelly
Thanks, Wafer Not! and Rottie.
So, I guess what I glean from this thread is, 1) It is nice to be remembered, and missed! 2) Avoid icky feelings at ALL costs, but do what you have to do. Which is why I hadn’t been posting for 11 months. (Well, that, and becoming too lazy to type out my thoughts.) I become emotionally involved with a particular poster and I didn’t like what I was becoming. You would think they have 12-step programs for that?
-->
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RottieGrrrl
Okay Shell, I don't know what you have been going through but I sure am GLAD to see you back. Please try to make it an occasional habit! I missed your honesty and posts.
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Belle
I read a book called "High Bottom Drunk" about a guy's tries to get sober before joining AA and how he felt odd going to the meetings and hated them, but kept going until he found a group he did like and people he did relate with who didn't talk about God all the time and just fit his goals and ways of thinking.
I bought it off the website of the author pretty cheap and he even signed it. It's a great book.
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imbus
I went to a graditude meeting this A.M. It is my favorite cause it's focus is on graditude. The group I attend is non-judgemental and fun loving bunch of folks that are managing their lives through 12 steps. I laugh my a@@ off every Sunday about the stories of hope. So many share in a humorous way and you walk out of the meeting blessed and supported.
I quiet going to Thursday nite closed meetings cause the women that attend are therapist in recovery. So the flavor is more of a "we will fix you/your not being honest/intervention" therapy session. It has no place in a Bill W. meeting.
I attended AA for 3 months befor I got sober. It was the best neturally spiritual place I could fine and feel safe. I liked that there was no religious overtones. It afforded me the time I needed to heal and find my own way spiritually .
So in all organizations you have the good and the not so good. I found what fit for me and am one thankful alcoholic.
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reikilady
A. A. does work. My group had 3 ministers in it at one point, with one constantly quoting from the bible. He also quotes Dr. Phil. Overcomers is a christen group that works for some people. A. A. is self-supporting so as not to be unduly influenced by anybody.
Therapists are recovering alcoholics, too. A good meeting, imho, doesn't have "cross talk" where people talk to you about your issue to the whole room. I don't like that and it's not suppose to be like that. I will comment on something somebody says in how I relate to it, but not speak the person's name. I was in an A. A. group for about 3 years that was cultish imho because everything revolved around it. I spent at least 4 nights a week at a meeting of an hour to an hour and half, sometimes going to coffee afterwards. I spent a lot of my extra time at events sponsored by A. A. and also extra money for those.
I pulled away when I got married the second time. It helps to listen to the solutions and to observe the examples you don't want to be. Not drinking or drugging is just the beginning of recovery. Learning to live and function without addictive behavior is the part that keeps you sober along with believing in a "higher Power" which many choose to call God.A. A. has some good ideas and has helped a lot of people. You just have to have a sense of "self" of what is healthy and what is not. They say to exercise at least 4 times a week to gain fitness and I was trying to gain serenity at the time. I can't fault the people I let influence me in A. A. I will not go into details here. There were some untoward experiences that I walked away from here in Lincoln. I don't like to listen to people trash A. A. that don't like it after a certain point in time. If someone always brings it up negatively than I ask them to talk about something else. We have to find our own way.Here, on this thread, sharing about not liking it is fine. I'm talking about every time I see somebody. I am super picky about where I go to meetings at. I don't have a sponsor which is suppose to be a major "no, no" and I won't until I find the right person. Not someone who will think she will run my life. STEP 3: Came to believe in a power greater than yourself and turned your will and life over to that power. Great step! Good topic!
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oilfieldmedic
Hi Folks:
A.A. saved my butt...God saved me through Jesus Christ.
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mj412
Since many here have struggled with this in their life I want to ask question . I am chubby but not to fat to function in a manner that gets the job done in life. I can buy from stores and fit in my car etc. I have enough energy to last at a physical job. but I over eat .
alcohol abuse is different most can not do what they want to do if they are drunk . it is illegal and difficult to get or keep a job becuase others do not trust your judgement. It messes up your real life with your relationships .
my question is why. why do people want to get drunk or do drugs? I have been a little drunk relaxed you know a little loud and silly. but I would never go to the point of not knowing what I am doing or being able to safetly drive a car etc.
I know after a while it can be physical , and that has to be oover come. alcohol is a depressant it just makes you sadder if it is to forget and I do not forget anything if I have a couple of beers so I do not get it .
why if alcohol is messing up your life why do you still drink?
I like food so I over eat but I do not think it is for the flavor is it? why is it so difficult to say Im not doing that agin?
is it your friends? that cant be it as many hide the problem and drink alone .
it can not be social pressure I do not drink and my friends and family like me and I am welcomed drinking tea or water where ever I go .
I do not think it is always self esteem issues where people are shy either snd need a drink to "open up" .
what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?
I smoke I do not like that and I have been unable to quit but it does not change me or get me into trouble .
is it a desire like smoking?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Hiya oilfieldmedic!!!
oneyedjackswild1 here... remember i sent ya those hooter girls about two years ago!
:D-->
I did the 12 step.
Had a wonderful sponser.
I just could not dig the religious overtures the lords prayer and holding hands. AA was very cultish to me especially after being labled possesed by liviathan by a Reverend. That was in 95 when I was told at that ROA i could not be a twig co any mo because of my drinking.I was drinking heavy to become numb all that i saw going on in twi.
Yepper AA helped me. I told my sponsor what I was previously involved and he seemed to understand and placed his right hand on my right shoulder and prayed for me. I will never forget that moment of intercession to this present day.
But I could not go on with AA because of its structure seemed to me TWI in essence. I was with them for a year. Had to leave because that adventure seemed to stop short my 20 years TWI.
I no longer have a problem with alcohol.
I can't believe I am posting this.
Rok On
Song
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Shelly
Hi, MJ, you asked, “my question is why. why do people want to get drunk or do drugs?”
I can’t speak for others, but for me it was because it felt good. It sure as hell beat the alternative. Wasn’t happy and drinking helped me avoid dealing with that unhappiness. Of course, you couldn’t have told me I wasn’t happy. But I wasn’t.
“alcohol is a depressant it just makes you sadder…”
Very true. But I wouldn’t accept that. I even had blood work done hoping there was something physical that explained why I was so depressed all the time. If I admitted I was depressed because of the drinking I would have had to give up “my best friend.”
”why if alcohol is messing up your life why do you still drink?”
I kept drinking because even though alcohol was messing up my life, it was better than dealing with the simmering rage I always felt inside. I didn’t like me drunk, but I didn’t like me sober any better. Actually, I liked me sober even less. I finally made staying sober more important than me. It wasn’t until two years after I stopped drinking my anger began to dissolve. But that is another topic.
”why is it so difficult to say Im not doing that agin? is it your friends? that cant be it as many hide the problem and drink alone .”
No, it was never my friends. But to say I’m not going to do it again, which I did often, is saying that now I am going to deal with Shelly. I hated Shelly. It was easier to drink.
”it can not be social pressure I do not drink and my friends and family like me and I am welcomed drinking tea or water where ever I go .”
Your family and friends know you as a nondrinker. Imagine if your relationship with then was based on eating steak dinners. Now imagine you have gone vegan.
”I do not think it is always self esteem issues where people are shy either snd need a drink to "open up" .”
You are probably right. With me, however, it was self esteem issues.
”what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?”
Instant gratification. You don’t have to work for anything. You just drink and, BAM!, instant gratification.
”I smoke I do not like that and I have been unable to quit but it does not change me or get me into trouble .”
True. Plus with smoking you don’t wake up with a hang over AND you remember what you did the night before.
”is it a desire like smoking?”
For me it was/is. It is still instant gratification. Why deal with the frustration and anxiety of not doing something, when all I have to do in order to feel better is keep doing it?
Thanks for asking, MJ. I never want to forget why I drank, or why I stopped drinking. You helped me do that.
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Linda Z
Thanks for your honesty, Shelly, and welcome back to GS, how ever long you might stay.
:)-->I've missed your insights around here!
As for AA, NA, etc., hey, whatever works is a good thing! They might not be everyone's cup of tea, but 12-step programs have helped an awful lot of people beat their addictions.
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mj412
thanks shelly that was good just one more question. you said imagine my friends new me as a steak eater and i turned veg.
I hear you put Im a social person and I meet new people join new clubs and have new neighbors meet new family member all the time and they never Knew me as sober or drunk but they like me ( I think) what Im saying is that is the part I do not get about folks who say they drink for social reasons... that it helps them get along or every one knows them as a drinker... well if you have favorite bar and it is all about booze I suppose but life isnt like that and no one lives in such a small place they would only accept you as a drunk you know?
it might be because you think that is the only way you can meet or be accepted but it isnt. I dress up and I look like a different person from my work clothes and It doesnt matter to me if Im in jeans and a tee or a suit I am still me, booze doesnt allow a person to be comfortable with themselves and then I think they forget that is is them people love without the alochol because they feel different sober. very sad. I also think drunk people hurt one another alot being stupid under the influence and saying or doing things they normaly would not and that causes guilt that makes you want to drink to forget and then it can happen again. I hate hanging out with drunk people I know they are foolish and stupid and often mean out of the chemical .
yes quiting any habit is difficult like posting! but I know it can be done congrats shelly.
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Galen
MJ-
“. . . . why do people want to get drunk or do drugs? I have been a little drunk relaxed you know a little loud and silly. but I would never go to the point of not knowing what I am doing or being able to safetly drive a car etc. I know after a while it can be physical , and that has to be oover come. alcohol is a depressant it just makes you sadder if it is to forget and I do not forget anything if I have a couple of beers so I do not get it.”
I don’t drink and drive. In the Navy I learned that getting drunk and doing something usually gets you in trouble and gets you labeled “alcoholic”. They really trained us well. There are a lot of 'social-drinkers' but such are the young men. And they will get in trouble for their in-discretions. I am one of the old guys, who when we tie-up to a pier, sits down just off of the pier, maybe under a tree, with a brocery bag of fifths. (It is against regs to drink on the piers, or on-board, and I dont want to walk far. The farther you have to walk at night, the more likely you will stumble and trip over something. Once you need stitches, if you have alcohol in your system, then you need treatment. So the safest thing is to avoid the EM club, and avoid driving. Just walk to the end of the pier and sit under a tree, within full-sight of the sub).
Beer is silly, it don’t do nothing. You ‘rent it’. Whiskey, Rum, vodka, Tequila, even ever-clear works much better. And I dont have to work for hours to get ‘there’.
“why if alcohol is messing up your life why do you still drink?”
Sometimes watching the news gets me so mad, or it could be anything; I have known so many good friends whose lives have been ....ed away. I was a part of ruining some good men’s lives, and I was a part of the mechanism that caused the deaths of many others. It does not take much for me to get ‘down’ and when I do, I just get angry. I get worked up, I shout and scream. Most of the time, I can focus on doing something. But at night, when things get quite I need help. I drink enough so that I can sleep.
“is it your friends? that cant be it as many hide the problem and drink alone”
I drink alone. So do many of my friends. So maybe you could say that 'really' we drink socially, just not together at the same time. We each drink seperately, all of us.
“I do not think it is always self esteem issues where people are shy either snd need a drink to "open up". “
I don’t ‘feel’ right in social settings. I certainly have been in bars. But I just don’t feel comfortable in them. I feel like an ‘outsider’ whenever I walk into one. Even at my retirement party. I bought a keg and reserved the back room at the EM club at Capodichino Italy. Others who showed up, had a good time, some got drunk and danced, I poured. When in a ‘social’ settings, I feel like I need to be alert and aware of what is happening around me. In recent years, most of the time when I have been in bars I have been in uniform armed and have been on ‘duty’.
“what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?”
When I get drunk it is something I want, and I want it right then and there. For me I guess it is mostly just to suppress the anger.
Shelly-
“can’t speak for others, but for me it was because it felt good. It sure as hell beat the alternative. Wasn’t happy and drinking helped me avoid dealing with that unhappiness.”
Same here.
“what is the attraction? what do you get from being drunk if you know it isnt something you want to do ?”
Instant gratification. You don’t have to work for anything. You just drink and, BAM!, instant gratification.”
Yeah.
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Goey
Hi,
Thanks to God, AA, and my own willingness and hard work, I celebrated 15 years of sobriety on July 13th.
There is nothing in AA that dissallows Jesus Christ as a part of your "program". However many folks have been burned or percieve to have been burned by Christianity that it sometimes "seems" like AA is anti-Christian. ( A few AA folks are indeed anti-Christian and are less tolerant than the Christian's they despise) I once attend an AA meeting in Chicago, where a person was called down by the meeting "chairperson" for saying that Jesus was his higher power, but others were allowed to say anything they wanted about their "higher power". Interesting for an organizatin that started out by hittng folks over the head with the Bible ( figurtatively)
AA's Big Book says that it is "God as we (individually) understand him". So that allows for a person to adopt any concept of God or a higer power that a person wishes, including a door knob, nature, Allah or Jesus. No concept of God or of a higher power, according to AA's "Big Book" or other official material, is disallowed or promoted. You decide for yourself.
I think the whole idea here is that alcohol, drugs, etc is kicking your butt and you need to get humble and admit that you can't shake it alone, and that help must come from a power greater that yourself ( whatever you conceive that power to be).
Yeah, some AA groups can be a bit cultish where some enthusisastic and misguided members attempt to define God for everyone else, but I don't pay much attention to those folks. And hey, if the group holds hands as says the Lord's Prayer at the end of the meeting, just leave the meeting before that starts. That's what I used to do.
And some AA members seem to try to (and do) make the group itself the higher power not only for themselves but for everyone else as well. These are the folks who after 10 years of sobriety think they will get drunk and die if they don't attend 5 AA meetings per week. (Meeting dependants I like to call them). But better that than having them drunk and on the streets driving. I dont pay much attention to these folks either.
I guess what I am saying is that each AA or 12 step group has it's own "flavor" and like most other religious organizations there will be zealots and power mongers who try to run the show (especially in the larger groups).
However, in spite of it's flaws AA has probably been responsible for more folks recovering from Alcohol and Drug abuse than anything out there, including well meaning Christain organizations.
I highly reccomend AA for anyone who wants to quit abusive drinking and druging, especially when it is messing up their lives.
But for those whose haven't "hit bottom" yet, nothing seems to work to well, including AA and other 12 step programs. Usually is is pretty futile to try to convince an alcoholic to quit drinking when they don't think they have a drinking problem.
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