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Did Terri Schiavo's parents ever try to get guardianship?


waterbuffalo
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Ok this is from the standpoint of distance and not a parent, cause I just can't imagine what I would do if I were the parent.

1. You can get a medical expert to testify to just about anything if you pay them enough money. Not all of them. Certainly there are those with ethics, but there are also those who are lacking in ethics. So, I simply don't have that much faith in expert testimony that comes in this late in the game. Particularly if it is contradicting not only her treating physicians but also the court ordered physicians.

2. Quality of life does matter. Someone posted in an e-group I participate with, about a particular type of brain injury that mimics the "vegetative state" (boy do I hate that term). The difference is in the former type of situation the person is aware of everthing going on and can feel pain, but simply cannot communicate. Now imagine living like that for 10 or 15 years! I'd say let me go, kill me even and end my suffering.

Who gets to decided qualifty of life? Well I do know this - I DO NOT WANT the government making that decision. However, I would be pretty comfortable leaving that decision up to the doctors and the family - jointly.

3. In general, I would agree that a feeding tube in and of itself is not life support as we would normally think of it. I would likewise agree that removing the tube is sentencing a person to a rather long, slow death. However, if the person is suffering and wants to die, I'd say remove the tube and give them all the pain meds it takes to keep them comfortable. Hell, I'd say o.d. them and make it easier for them still.

If you think this never happens, think again. It is done for terminal patients who have reached the end and are merely suffering. No one talks about it, most don't even know it occurs, but it does. I think it is merciful.

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agreed abby but it is their choice.

many disabled have dnr's and some do die of choking to death in a sezure or on asparated food without imediate care they die and if they have a DNR they do die, of unnatural causes.

But it is their wish.

Some parents have made standing orders for their children born disabled that last a life time.

But in terry's case we have no such orders . somone eles is deciding and when and how she should live and die.

the very fact we do not agree on what is a quality of life is the reason this is so scary who does decide if not the individual ?

the courts a dr, an ex husband a parent ? out of control .

makes me want to get a living will, my friend the one who pulled her husband off a respirator has been in my face about it NOW everyone is talking about it.

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WE have no treatment for many issues in health and disabilities. should they all die?

We can just take away all their food .

Who is deciding what she is or isnt thinking?

A cat scan reveals information . We DO not know enough to decide what is or how people think and do and do not by far. One nuerologist testified today he thinks'life" is within terry he is a pro life individual he spent 90 minutes with her, nost of these experts look at an X ray and decide whether she feels something or not and how she thinks. they do not know .

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Okay, here is the portion of the USA today article.

"Florida courts have ruled that Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, a condition caused by extensive damage to the cortex and other parts of the brain that are responsible for consciousness, higher thinking, memory or even sensations such as pain, hunger and thirst.

"She's not experiencing hunger — she's not experiencing anything," Albin says.

Patients in such a state don't get better because the body is unable to repair such a massive injury to the brain, says James Bernat, a neurologist at the Dartmouth Medical School in Hanover, N.H.

"If you're in a state like this for three months or more, your chance of recovery is zero," Albin says.

That point is disputed by Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who are battling Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo, to get Terri's feeding tube reinserted.

The condition is confusing because patients in a persistent vegetative state still have the use of a primitive part of the brain, the stem. The brain stem allows them to go through sleep-wake cycles, keeps them breathing and produces facial expressions that can make it look as though they are aware of their surroundings, Albin says.

But those movements are merely reflexes, says Bruce Sigsbee, a neurologist in Rockport, Maine."

mj: The argument would be that your case is much different because you were in recovery. Not a permanent vegetative state.

I agree this has turned into a freak show. That hospice she is at has other people DYING there and these nuts are out there with megaphones screaming all over the place. I cannot believe the hospice is putting up with that.

I absolutely agree that you can get some medical expert to testify about anything if you pay them. Just watch the Michael Jackson trial. He's even got doctors talking to the judge making excuses for him every time he pulls one of his stunts.

And I also believe quality of life matters. It's scary what medical technology can do to keep a person alive at any cost. As I said on another thread, and I don't mean disrespect to this situation, but I'm glad they haven't found a way to keep a brain alive in a jar and call that "life."

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makes ya want to get a living will right?

me toI keep seeing my mother at my bed side forcing me to live with her every single day !

Im calling a lawyer .

Well that is what bothering me that others are deciding what her life is and isnt.

It is to late! now they are just killing her.

rottie

lucky my recovery was accep[table for them unlucky for terry her recovery is not.

many people live everyday with feeding tubes Rottie.

I dare say many disabled have as little or less functioning as Terry it is that population I am concerned about. some of them if born as such do have DNR but not all and they do live a long well you might say suffering life. But who is to decide?

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quote:
Originally posted by mj412:

A child is a child and legaly and that is the core of the issue here who says who is to live and die.

That’s not only not the law, it’s morally wrong. It ignores one of the core aspects of both civil marriage and religious (Biblical) marriage. The one decision that affects this matter that we know without a doubt that Terri Schiavo made was to marry Michael Schiavo, thereby publicly declaring him and legally making him (not her parents) her proxy decision-maker in situations such as these. That, we absolutely know, was her choice. For anyone to attempt to replace her choice (Michael Schiavo) with someone else, without demonstrating clearly good reasons, is to defy her will and declare null her rights as a free adult human being.

I’ll say it again. Terri Schiavo chose, and legally designated, Michael Schiavo to make exactly the sorts of decisions he has been making. He is carrying out the charge that she gave him, which he legally (and “before God”) accepted. For anyone, without clearly showing good cause, to attempt to prevent him from carrying out that charge is to defy Terri Schiavo’s will and legal rights. If they were successful, they would potentially undermine the rights and responsibilities of all spouses and the very basis of marriage. I’m not talking about “the sanctity of marriage.” I’m talking about the legal basis of and one of the reasons for marriage.

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I was wondering about the husbands right but then why are they questioning this law ? because she has not lived as his wife for many years I suppose.

Im glad im single.

Her parents disagree but it is because this has been so many years ya know.

My friend husband parents where still alive in their late 90's and her husband was their youngest child and the only one who has died. They didnt want her to do it either but she did anyway and we all stood behind her and they stayed close although dad did die just a few motnhs later of heart break he said. They respected her as his wife.

What is up in this case ? maybe the fact she has lived so long also this is murder and Im not so sure if wedding vows carry that far ya know!

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It's not murder, mj. If Terri Schiavo said that she would not want to have her life prolonged in a situation such as this, and there is no reason to believe that she did not, then it is honoring her wishes and standing up for her rights.

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I have to agree with Long Gone here. Terry is Mrs. Michael Schiavo. He and he alone has the LEGAL right to make these decisions. Not her parents, not the state of Florida, nor Jeb Bush, nor Congress nor the president. Mr. Michael Schiavo has the sole right and responsibility to make this life or death decision for Mrs. Michael Schiavo.

His motivation for denying her rehabilitation, therapy and ultimately her life is totally, absolutely, completely, completely completely absolutely IRRELEVANT. He could be doing this out of a deep sense of responsibility to carry out his wife's wishes, or because he's got a billion dollars worth of life insurance policies to cash in. It doesn't matter. It is his legal right and responsibility.

That said, I think what is legal in this case and what is moral are miles and miles apart.

Who the heck knows whether she can think/feel anything? Amazingly enough, after 35 years as a medical secretary, I have clearly observed that doctors don't really know much about the mind/brain at all.

If I were the judge, I would rule thusly:

Terri Shiavo gets extremely intense therapy in all areas in which she needs it for six months. The best in the country in each field must be flown in to treat. And after six months, we re-evaluate. Then we'll see. oh, and Mr. Shiavo pays the bills, since he got that handsome settlement to use for her care.

But I'm just a secretary.

WG

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But all we have is his say so and years later.

For some reason the family doesnt trust his judgement and maybe a good reason.

Look my friend did just take her husband off a respirator and he died of natural causes . that was loving and up to them to decide . she thought maybe if she took him off he would live , he didnt his choice or whoever makes those type of choices the body I guess. some have been taken off and lived.

Terrry will starve to death that is murder it is different. She is not being kept alive by unnatural forces. she is given what we all have a right to have food. Just because a person can not feed themself they should die? Just because a person has a different personality they should die now? come on.

If she decided then she should have it written up. But we do not know that is the case maybe it is but crap guys listen marriage does not come before murder. A person choosing NOT to have certain medical care is a Choice and a right . BUT terry isnt chosing here and what marriage allows a spouse to decide whther you should be killed? not whether you should have certain medical choices they are killing her .

Did she say to her husband gee if my cat scan says this I want you to starve me to death?

this is different than extra medical care to keep somone alive. she is alive she is just hungry for a little food and water . good god.

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Have any of you seen someone die because someone decided to not give them food or drink?

I have. It was horrible to watch. It was a slow death. I will never forget it as long as I live.

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In the '70's I was working in a nursing home. There was a beautiful elderly lady that was a resident. It was well known that she had lots of money. She was very friendly. I don't remember ever meeting her family.

One day she suffered a stroke. I don't think it was too bad of one. Her family who never came and visit her decided to do npo which means nothing by mouth. So it was doctor ordered.

She was not allowed to be given water or food until she died. Her family still never came to visit.

She lasted about 2 maybe 2 1/2 weeks maybe a little more.

It was very slow. Very awful to watch. She looked so thirsty. It looked very excruciating.

It has stayed with me after all these years of watching someone die in a way that was very inhumane that most wouldn't even do to their own dog much less a family member.

Would you want to die in that manner? I think if they wanted to get rid of me that bad put me to sleep like an animal. At least then I wouldn't have to suffer.

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Well, my first job after being m & a'd by twi was in the nursing home Terri was in before she went to the Hospice House. I took care of her a lot over the two years I was there. She seemed to really enjoy oldies music. She seemed to be aware but unable to communicate anything clearly.

I remember the sound of her groaning in pain from cramps every month. I ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE SHE FEELS PAIN. They were planning her hysterectomy when I took another job.

Michael came in to visit like he was a celebrity - strutting around barking orders, threatening to get people fired, bragging to the staff right in front of Terri about his life, talking about his girlfriend(s), acting like a drill sargeant grilling us about her daily showers. He did keep her in very nice and very stylish clothes. He attended St. Pete Jr. College for more than one degree - reportedly on the money he won on her behalf from the doc that prescribed diet pills she was taking when she had the heart attack.

As I recall - there were specific requirements that he had to uphold in order to continue being her representative, one being that he hade to visit her at least once every day and there was a certain level of care he had to maintain to be able to spend her money. My understanding is that the money has run out or is about to. She may be considered indigent now, but where I took care of her was a private pay facility, and very expensive. It is a topnotch facility.

It was usually unpleasant when he came to visit. Her parents and siblings seemed to genuinely want to be there to visit with her, but Michael was definitely "performing" when he came around. He seemed to be there mostly to be seen having been there. He didn't talk sweetly to Terri or really show any affection or personal connection. I never saw Michael there at the same time as her folks.

Generally, I believe in living wills, but I see Terri as an exception to the rule. I think that her family should be able to take care of her. I don't know if that's the mom in me or the optimist that prays for her to wake up right now like that lady in Kansas City did after a 20 year coma recently or that guy in Arkansas last year that woke up from a 19 year coma. It could happen. And if it doesn't happen I still feel that it's better to err on the side of conservation and life. If she just laid there with her eyes closed and never moving at all I might see it differently, but only might.

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I forgot to mention that it's been said that Michael wants to marry the woman he lives with that he's got two kids with. He wants to marry her in the Roman Catholic Church - can only do that if he becomes a widower, not if he divorces her or allows her parents to have custody.

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quote:
I have to agree with Long Gone here. Terry is Mrs. Michael Schiavo. He and he alone has the LEGAL right to make these decisions. Not her parents, not the state of Florida, nor Jeb Bush, nor Congress nor the president. Mr. Michael Schiavo has the sole right and responsibility to make this life or death decision for Mrs. Michael Schiavo.

WG (and Long Gone) too: Ahem!!! -- Michael Shaivo has been living with another woman for over 10 years now, and has fathered two children by the person who IS NOT HIS WIFE (by normal, ethical, legal, standards).

Oh -- scuse me -- in most states (I am not sure about the land of the big swamp -- ie: Florida (sorry Raf - that is what is becoming) -- if you live with a woman for seven years -- it is common-law marriage.

Mr. Michael has two wives. And this bozo is now a candidate for the Mormon church, and could probably be a leader there, if he pulls this off successfully.

THE ONLY WAY THAT MICHAEL SCHIAVO COULD HAVE COMPLETE SAY -- IS IF HE WERE NOT *MARRIED* TO ANOTHER WOMAN.

However -- he is married to two. One by law, and one by common-law. He has totally been a pompous *sob* when dealing with the one he was truely married too, in order to get what he wanted, while living with the other.

Not only that -- he was found to be injecting Terri with an extra dosage of insulin, at a time that was not her normal med time, and that dosage could have, should have, but did not --- put her into remission, as he (supposedly) hoped it would do.

Well -- I will agree with one thing -- Terri did decide to marry this guy. She seemed to have made a bad choice kinda like we all did with twi -- eh??

This man who has two wives, is breaking the law, and (IMHO) has no right to dictate that one should die.

my 2 cents worth

David

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In NY it is a felony Count to have any animal without proper food and water.

If you leave your cat outside in cold weather you can be charged with a felony here it happens every winter . If your goat does not have water or food you can and will be charged with a felony count here. People can be sentenced to the death penalty for felonies in NY.

Terry and her life and how ever she must live is worth more than your goat isnt she?

this is so odd that people feel they have the right to Kill her, better check your hamster and make sure he has food because that is agaisnt the Law. think about what they are doing.

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Did anyone see Greta Van Susteren's show last night? They showed a picture of a normal brain vs Terri's brain. 80 percent of Terri's brain is gone. 80 percent! It was replaced with water, hence the term "water on the brain."

The neurologist said she was functioning off the brain stem. Which controls breathing, allows her to sleep and wake up, and produce facial expressions.

After seeing that I can't help but wondering if these people trying to help her live, aren't sentencing this woman to a living hell, like she must have been in the last 15 years.

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David, what you wrote is not only irrelevant, but also wrong. First, Florida doesn’t recognize common law marriages. Neither do most other States, including your own. Second, even in the few (15) States that do recognize common law marriages, no matter how long a couple might live together or how many children they might have, they are not considered to be married by common law unless they hold themselves forth to be married.

Most of the horrible stuff being bandied about all over the Web is utterly false, grossly misleading, or wild, unsubstantiated speculation. In order to be the monster some are trying to portray him as, Michael Schiavo would have to have marshaled a conspiracy of doctors, judges, and hundreds of other people, and kept them all marching in lockstep for 15 years. It’s just plain nuts!

Assuming the man to be a mere mortal, like the rest of us, and not the devil incarnate, the only reasonable explanation for his actions is that he is honestly (even if misguidedly) trying to carry out Terri Schiavo’s wishes, as a matter of conscience. Otherwise, he’d be a fool not to have taken the millions he was offered and washed his hands of the matter.

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quote:
Originally posted by dmiller:

Not only that -- he was found to be injecting Terri with an extra dosage of insulin, at a time that was not her normal med time, and that dosage could have, should have, but did not --- put her into remission, as he (supposedly) hoped it would do.

Yeah, right. That assertion comes from the suggestion of that possibility in the Carla Iyer affidavit, which is not only unsubstantiated, but clearly false. She was an LPN, not an RN, at the time she claims the events in the following quote from that affidavit happened.
quote:
It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I'd check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri's mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift, as I recall. Normally Terri's blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is medically possible that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting, but I don't have any way of knowing for sure.
An LPN wouldn’t have the authority to do this on her own volition. Also, if she did it on a doctor or RN’s orders, there would be records. And especially, if she or anyone else even remotely suspected that Schiavo or anyone else had injected a patient with unauthorized medicine or other substances, there would be records of the event and some kind of investigation. (Unless the mighty Schiavo’s huge conspiracy was hard at work.) This woman is either intentionally lying or just plain nuts, maybe both.
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For the record, I worked at that nursing home and I know that LPNs WERE the supervisors (so to speak) on the floor 24/7. The nursing home has 3 levels of care: A Wing was for Rehab (where there WAS an RN on duty at all times, B Wing for Medicare patients and C wing, where Terri resided, for the private pay patients. The RN would come down to the B and C wings occasionally, but the floor was run by LPNs.

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David, I didn't mean anyone to think I'm on Mr. S's side. I think he is a horrible person, and what he is doing is completely self-serving and morally wrong.

All I meant was, he's got the law on his side. What he is doing is legal but NOT moral.

Sometimes I almost wonder if he is so insistent she must die because he's afraid of what she could say or do if she was fully aware.

WG

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Bowtwi,

Hey, thanks for the ***eyewitness account *** of Terri's care and information about her husband. I had never speculated about his conduct when he was with her because I didn't think about anyone here or in my world knowing her/him. You clearly do since you cared for her and witnessed his conduct with Terri. It doesn't sound loving.

You know, even Jesus was given water to drink when he was dying by the Roman beasts. It is appaling that we in America cannot do as little for Terri.

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quote:
Generally, I believe in living wills, but I see Terri as an exception to the rule. I think that her family should be able to take care of her. I don't know if that's the mom in me or the optimist that prays for her to wake up right now like that lady in Kansas City did after a 20 year coma recently or that guy in Arkansas last year that woke up from a 19 year coma. It could happen. And if it doesn't happen I still feel that it's better to err on the side of conservation and life. If she just laid there with her eyes closed and never moving at all I might see it differently, but only might.

I agree with BOWtwi. If it's God's will, she can still wake up. Others have. Lots of people have even been raised from the dead in recent years.

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