Goodness, if I was his common law wife, I'd be writing everything down NOW! But, what if this was one of his kids, and he could sue for malpractice for a large sum of money, deny their rehab, and then decide he knew what their wishes were because they shared that with daddy...
What harm is there in erring on the side of life for Terri? A feeding tube, bathing her, and turning her is not such a big deal.
If they want to save some government money by euthanizing someone, lets start with those who have been **sentenced** to death for crimes against mankind. AFter all, they're getting fed, housed, college degrees and law degrees for free, and endless court costs for repeated appeals because after all, they didn't do it---they were framed.
If it's murder, Cynic, it's not judicial murder. The applicable laws were written and passed by the legislature and approved and signed by the Governor, all of whom were elected by the people. The judges acted in accordance with those laws, right down the line.
Those laws have been on the books for years and have governed hundreds of decisions to terminate artificially provided sustenance and hydration. If people think the laws are wrong, they should work to change them, not castigate judges who faithfully apply them.
A controversial point seems to be whether she is in a "persistent vegetative state."
Controversial only to those who are unqualified to judge, like us. There is consensus among the doctors who actually examined Mrs. Schiavo. The one exception is a fraud. He's not a Nobel prize nominee, as he promotes himself to be. He got a congressman to write a letter recommending him for the nonexistant "Nobel Peace Prize in Medicine."
The morphine is not for pain. It is to make the respiratory functions less dire. Apparently during this type of death, the breathing speeds up and down and it does appear the patient is in respiratory distress. This must be done more for the families than for Terri herself (if she is not feeling pain).
They did this for my father during the last several hours of his life.
And I suppose the Teddy Bears and soft music are for the families, too?
quote:
He said that he spent more than an hour in Schiavo's room yesterday and that she was peaceful, with soft contemporary music playing and a teddy bear at her side.
Sorry, the hypocrisy of this is rather nauseating. You have one side saying that she is aware and fighting for her life. You have another side that says that she is peaceful and having essentially the time of her life. The one side that says that she is a fighter is saying things that no way could be true (an morphine drip for somebody you're trying to dry up, yeah right). The other side says music and teddy bears...for a total vegetable who is not aware of anything around her (if she is appreciating the teddy bear and music that means she is aware...if she is aware, that means that a person is still in there...why then are you killing her?)
Both sides, drop the hyperbole and give me some facts. Schiavo/Felos: if you are telling the truth, why not allow some news cameras in to do a few minutes of filming when the parents are around? (If she is not aware, it will be plainly obvious...even if her parents are there). Schindler family: drop the obvious BS and drop Randall Terry. Its weakening your case.
(Not that either side will read those words, of course)
Terri Schiavo has never had an MRI or a PET scan, nor a thorough neurological examination. Republican Senate leader Bill Frist, a specialist in heart-lung transplant surgery, has, as The New York Times reported on March 23, "certified [in his practice] that patients were brain dead so that their organs could be transplanted." He is not just "playing doctor" on this case.
During a speech on the Senate floor on March 17, Frist, speaking of Judge Greer's denial of a request for new testing and examinations of Terri, said reasonably, "I would think you would want a complete neurological exam" before determining she must die.
Frist added: "The attorneys for Terri's parents have submitted 33 affidavits from doctors and other medical professionals,all of whom say that Terri should be re-evaluated."
Long Gone,
The "judicial murder" charge is possibly some demagogic hyperbole from Hentoff, but Greer's alleged failure to allow an MRI test and further neurological evaluation, along with the refusal by federal courts to intervene, seems, at minimum, repulsively cold-souled -- especially against the background of the nature and extent of scrutiny that get judicially bestowed on some death-penalty cases.
In 2003, Hammesfahr was placed on probation for 6 months for charging for services not rendered. (The Judgment) In those same proceedings, he was also accused of false advertising, but the evidence on that charge was held not to be clear and convincing. The judgment quoted some statements from his advertising, including his claim to be “the first physician to treat patients successfully to restore deficits caused by stroke…” He now advertises that statement as being the judge’s, both on the front page of his web site and in this press release.
In the second trial in the Schiavo case, the judge noted that Hammesfahr was a self-promoter who made great claims but provided not even a single name or case study to back them up.
I am appalled at what they are doing to that woman in Florida. Trust me. I was only trying to share what the morphine was for. Not that I agree with it. Although, in my father's case, I was never asked. My mother and older brothers and sisters made that decision with the doctor.
Gosh, the good doctor certainly has an impressive resume. Looks like the only thing he hasn't cured yet is death itself. Well, give him time.
Maybe the congressman should get ahold of the Swedish Chef as an additional character reference. I think that would lend a little more credibility to his "nomination"...
"Ferda shnerd a yumpin yimminy fer da Nobel peace prize fer medicine and physiology und everting elsa."
I was only trying to share what the morphine was for. Not that I agree with it.(snip)
I understand. I also understand that morphine can be used to depress bodily functions as well. The hyperbole on both sides is getting to the point of silliness...unfortunately, the lack of factual, neutral, independent information in the past several years has turned this entire event into an absolute circus. In light of that, I still maintain my original point: on one hand, it made no sense to anybody that she'd get a morphine "drip" if she's being dehydrated. On the other hand, if this is totally peaceful and euphoric (on one hand) or if she is a total vegetable, incapable of having any kind of awareness of the world around her (on the other hand), there is absolutely no need for morphine suppositories, teddy bears, or music.
if Micheal was after the money as it has been stated why put her in such a top notch facility?
Her care is being provided for by Medicaid. See here.
quote:
So Micheal is the devil incarnate because he wants to marry someone else. I'm in my second marriage should I burn next to him...what about people in their 3 or 4th marriage are you holding the matches?
No problem, but don't you think he should get divorced before getting engaged again? Nobody would begrudge a widower the ability to get romantically involved. Few would begrudge a divorcee the right to move on. But to move on while still married and to insist upon control of the fate of the person you've moved on from??? That's an issue. What makes this especially poignant is that the parents have stated that they would be happy to support a divorce action. In fact, they've gone so far as to plead with Mr. Schiavo to divorce their daughter and move on with his life.
quote:
As for him wanting her to die so that he can get married in a Catholic Church (roflmao),
Your bigotry is disgusting.
quote:
with all the money everyone is saying he got he could easily have bought a wedding at the vatican.
Not if his first wife is alive and he doesn't get an annulment...
quote:
The nurse who claims she spoke to Terri and the one who claims Micheal had her fired why wait so long to speak up...
Actually, although I don't attach too much relevance to what they stated, they also say that they made their sworn affadavits for a court hearing back in 2003. So, although you are right about questioning why they waited from 1997 to 2003 to speak up, it's not like they just brought this up for the current media circus in 2005.
quote:
for heavens sake everything that is done in the hospital is written on the charts..yet nothing about her speaking or Micheal shooting her up with insulin until there is a tv mike in front of them.
They also made the insulin charge in those affadavits. They stated in those affadavits that Michael removed pages from the charts. True? Don't know. Existing? Yes See here and here.
quote:
Now I go on record saying that I do not know what I would do if I were in any of their shoes.. but I do know this much if it where me lying there pull the plug, lose the feeding tube, give me morphine..if that dosen't work get a pillow an help me to the next world and live your life here.
You're business. Hopefully you have the documentation done that state your wishes and designating a proxy to act if you are in that kind of condition so that it won't be an issue in your case.
I believe it mark. I have worked in nursing homes and can believe this sort of thing happening. Its sad that this sort of things happen. If you've never worked in nursing home that things like this happened, I guess it would be hard to believe.
if Micheal was after the money as it has been stated why put her in such a top notch facility?
He's already spent pretty much all of the money that he won in the class action lawsuit. Unfortunately, a large chunk went into fending off the Schindler's lawsuits, as well as her care. The idea that he's after her money is laughable, because that money no longer exists.
quote:
Originally posted by sharon:
If this where yr 1 month 3 of her vegetative state I would understand better the uproar..but she has been like this for 15 YEARS!! Not 15 days, weeks or months...this woman has no brain left never mind brain function...
I agree, and the only reason her body has been kept alive is because her parents are delusional. The dad was on TV a few days ago telling the cameras that Terri was talking to him and telling him that she didn't want to die. I think he needs to see a psychiatrist, and I don't mean that in a rude way. The Schindlers are deluded, and unfortunately some religious anti-abortion nuts, Republicans trying to make this into a political issue, and the media who put this on our all of our news rather than more important things have made the delusions of the Schindlers worse. All of those involved should be ashamed of themselves. The doctors who have evaluated Terri independent of the ones hired by Schiavo or Schindlers have agreed that she can not recover and that her brain is gone. The only reason that there is some controversy is because some people who use their PhDs to pretend to be experts (which many people here buy, for some reason) have said things to the contrary. All for political, religious, or some other reason that has nothing to do with the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by sharon:
So Micheal is the devil incarnate because he wants to marry someone else. I'm in my second marriage should I burn next to him...what about people in their 3 or 4th marriage are you holding the matches?
I don't think that we have any right to complain since we've not been in his shoes. Sure, the fact that he's moved on in some ways is not what we all view as moral. However, he has proven many times over that he cares for Terri, much more than the parents who are keeping her corpse alive for selfish reasons. Even in their case though, I find it difficult to condemn them because I've never been in that situation so I don't know how I would react.
quote:
Originally posted by sharon:
As for him wanting her to die so that he can get married in a Catholic Church (roflmao),
That is a joke, because you can marry in a Catholic church without being Catholic or abiding by their rules. Even then, the whole conspiracy of the Catholic marriage is pretty extreme and there is absolutely no evidence of it. It just shows how weak the views of those who oppose Michael carrying out his wife's wishes are. The Catholic church marries divorcees.
quote:
Originally posted by sharon:
with all the money everyone is saying he got he could easily have bought a wedding at the vatican.
Not really, since he spent it all on caring for Terri and lawyer fees with the Schindlers.
quote:
Originally posted by sharon:
The nurse who claims she spoke to Terri and the one who claims Micheal had her fired why wait so long to speak up...for heavens sake everything that is done in the hospital is written on the charts..yet nothing about her speaking or Micheal shooting her up with insulin until there is a tv mike in front of them.
Someone either paid her to come out and say that or she is a habitual liar. It's highly unlikely that if Michael Schiavo wanted to have Terri killed, he would have attempted something that could be considered murder, kidnapping, or anything else like that.
quote:
Originally posted by sharon:
Now I go on record saying that I do not know what I would do if I were in any of their shoes.. but I do know this much if it where me lying there pull the plug, lose the feeding tube, give me morphine..if that dosen't work get a pillow an help me to the next world and live your life here.
More than 80% of Americans agree with you. On this site we sometimes get the more extreme religious viewpoint because some folks have moved on from TWI to another cult without changing behavior or their easily-victimized mind. Very few people would want their corpse to be kept alive unnaturally, very few would want to interfere with the wishes of a wife based upon the word of a husband who has shown dedication to her, and very few believe that the federal government has any business interfering with private family business.
… if she is a total vegetable, incapable of having any kind of awareness of the world around her (on the other hand), there is absolutely no need for morphine suppositories, teddy bears, or music.
Perhaps not a “need” but definitely a purpose, much like the purpose for flowers and music at a wake.
Very small quantities of morphine are used to ease breathing in imobile patients. It happened to me.
I have chronic breathing problems and last May when I had that catastrophic accident, I was positioned in such a way that breathing would be difficult anyway. My arms were strapped, splinted or hung in such a way that my chest couldn't move easily.
I was given something for pain because there was a lot of it....but I became quite short of breath after the second day and a very small dose of morphine was added to my IV and it was very helpful.
However much or little was used was not touching the pain and when I asked the nurse if I could have something for pain she came quickly with a shot! But it wasn't morphine. After the ER they changed the pain med to something else...but I forgot what they used.
More than 80% of Americans agree with you. On this site we sometimes get the more extreme religious viewpoint because some folks have moved on from TWI to another cult without changing behavior or their easily-victimized mind. Very few people would want their corpse to be kept alive unnaturally, very few would want to interfere with the wishes of a wife based upon the word of a husband who has shown dedication to her, and very few believe that the federal government has any business interfering with private family business.
So, because I disagree with you, you believe that I still have a twi mindset. I would think that disagreeing with most people would be because I am thinking for myself and not doing the 'group think' thing.
I could say that people here at greasespot that disagree with me is because they still have that mentality hearts are hardened because she is doesn't have money to pay for medical bills so lets kill her. But I won't say that just because you disagree with me....
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Goodness, if I was his common law wife, I'd be writing everything down NOW! But, what if this was one of his kids, and he could sue for malpractice for a large sum of money, deny their rehab, and then decide he knew what their wishes were because they shared that with daddy...
What harm is there in erring on the side of life for Terri? A feeding tube, bathing her, and turning her is not such a big deal.
If they want to save some government money by euthanizing someone, lets start with those who have been **sentenced** to death for crimes against mankind. AFter all, they're getting fed, housed, college degrees and law degrees for free, and endless court costs for repeated appeals because after all, they didn't do it---they were framed.
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Cynic
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oldiesman
A controversial point seems to be whether she is in a "persistent vegetative state."
I read in the paper that one reason why Michael Shiavo wants the autopsy is to prove the vast extent of the brain damage.
Seems to me if he was trying to hide something, he wouldn't want the autopsy.
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LG
If it's murder, Cynic, it's not judicial murder. The applicable laws were written and passed by the legislature and approved and signed by the Governor, all of whom were elected by the people. The judges acted in accordance with those laws, right down the line.
Those laws have been on the books for years and have governed hundreds of decisions to terminate artificially provided sustenance and hydration. If people think the laws are wrong, they should work to change them, not castigate judges who faithfully apply them.
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LG
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George Aar
Did this congressman learn syntax from Dubya by any chance?
Sorry, it just sounded like a "Bushism"...
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excathedra
this site is pretty good and make me think of you, long gone.
http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html
(sorry if it's already been posted.)
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markomalley
And I suppose the Teddy Bears and soft music are for the families, too?
From Newsday.
Sorry, the hypocrisy of this is rather nauseating. You have one side saying that she is aware and fighting for her life. You have another side that says that she is peaceful and having essentially the time of her life. The one side that says that she is a fighter is saying things that no way could be true (an morphine drip for somebody you're trying to dry up, yeah right). The other side says music and teddy bears...for a total vegetable who is not aware of anything around her (if she is appreciating the teddy bear and music that means she is aware...if she is aware, that means that a person is still in there...why then are you killing her?)
Both sides, drop the hyperbole and give me some facts. Schiavo/Felos: if you are telling the truth, why not allow some news cameras in to do a few minutes of filming when the parents are around? (If she is not aware, it will be plainly obvious...even if her parents are there). Schindler family: drop the obvious BS and drop Randall Terry. Its weakening your case.
(Not that either side will read those words, of course)
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Cynic
From http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0513,hentoff,62489,6.html :
Long Gone,
The "judicial murder" charge is possibly some demagogic hyperbole from Hentoff, but Greer's alleged failure to allow an MRI test and further neurological evaluation, along with the refusal by federal courts to intervene, seems, at minimum, repulsively cold-souled -- especially against the background of the nature and extent of scrutiny that get judicially bestowed on some death-penalty cases.
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LG
George, given your feelings for quacks and charlatans, you’ll love Dr. William Hammesfahr.
The good doctor’s web site.
The “Nomination.”
The Real Nominators (U.S. Congressmen not on list).
Info on real nominations kept secret for 50 years.
In 2003, Hammesfahr was placed on probation for 6 months for charging for services not rendered. (The Judgment) In those same proceedings, he was also accused of false advertising, but the evidence on that charge was held not to be clear and convincing. The judgment quoted some statements from his advertising, including his claim to be “the first physician to treat patients successfully to restore deficits caused by stroke…” He now advertises that statement as being the judge’s, both on the front page of his web site and in this press release.
In the second trial in the Schiavo case, the judge noted that Hammesfahr was a self-promoter who made great claims but provided not even a single name or case study to back them up.
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LG
Cynic,
Frist's remarks are among the most shameful in this whole mess. As a doctor, he should know better. No "should" about it. He does know better.
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LG
That's a very good, informative site, excathedra.
I think the following four documents are critical to having the remotest clue about the Schiavo case.
Greer’s February 2000 ruling.
Second District’s Affirmation of Greer’s ruling.
Greer’s November 2002 ruling.
Guardian Ad Litem’s Report to Governor Bush
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LG
Accidental double post.
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outofdafog
Mark,
I am appalled at what they are doing to that woman in Florida. Trust me. I was only trying to share what the morphine was for. Not that I agree with it. Although, in my father's case, I was never asked. My mother and older brothers and sisters made that decision with the doctor.
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George Aar
Long Gone,
Gosh, the good doctor certainly has an impressive resume. Looks like the only thing he hasn't cured yet is death itself. Well, give him time.
Maybe the congressman should get ahold of the Swedish Chef as an additional character reference. I think that would lend a little more credibility to his "nomination"...
"Ferda shnerd a yumpin yimminy fer da Nobel peace prize fer medicine and physiology und everting elsa."
Whatta dope...
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markomalley
I understand. I also understand that morphine can be used to depress bodily functions as well. The hyperbole on both sides is getting to the point of silliness...unfortunately, the lack of factual, neutral, independent information in the past several years has turned this entire event into an absolute circus. In light of that, I still maintain my original point: on one hand, it made no sense to anybody that she'd get a morphine "drip" if she's being dehydrated. On the other hand, if this is totally peaceful and euphoric (on one hand) or if she is a total vegetable, incapable of having any kind of awareness of the world around her (on the other hand), there is absolutely no need for morphine suppositories, teddy bears, or music.
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markomalley
Her care is being provided for by Medicaid. See here.
No problem, but don't you think he should get divorced before getting engaged again? Nobody would begrudge a widower the ability to get romantically involved. Few would begrudge a divorcee the right to move on. But to move on while still married and to insist upon control of the fate of the person you've moved on from??? That's an issue. What makes this especially poignant is that the parents have stated that they would be happy to support a divorce action. In fact, they've gone so far as to plead with Mr. Schiavo to divorce their daughter and move on with his life.
Your bigotry is disgusting.Not if his first wife is alive and he doesn't get an annulment...Actually, although I don't attach too much relevance to what they stated, they also say that they made their sworn affadavits for a court hearing back in 2003. So, although you are right about questioning why they waited from 1997 to 2003 to speak up, it's not like they just brought this up for the current media circus in 2005. They also made the insulin charge in those affadavits. They stated in those affadavits that Michael removed pages from the charts. True? Don't know. Existing? Yes See here and here. You're business. Hopefully you have the documentation done that state your wishes and designating a proxy to act if you are in that kind of condition so that it won't be an issue in your case.BTW, welcome to the greasespot.
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vickles
I believe it mark. I have worked in nursing homes and can believe this sort of thing happening. Its sad that this sort of things happen. If you've never worked in nursing home that things like this happened, I guess it would be hard to believe.
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excathedra
sharon, i totally understand what you are saying and have had the exact same thoughts / questions
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Mister P-Mosh
He's already spent pretty much all of the money that he won in the class action lawsuit. Unfortunately, a large chunk went into fending off the Schindler's lawsuits, as well as her care. The idea that he's after her money is laughable, because that money no longer exists.
I agree, and the only reason her body has been kept alive is because her parents are delusional. The dad was on TV a few days ago telling the cameras that Terri was talking to him and telling him that she didn't want to die. I think he needs to see a psychiatrist, and I don't mean that in a rude way. The Schindlers are deluded, and unfortunately some religious anti-abortion nuts, Republicans trying to make this into a political issue, and the media who put this on our all of our news rather than more important things have made the delusions of the Schindlers worse. All of those involved should be ashamed of themselves. The doctors who have evaluated Terri independent of the ones hired by Schiavo or Schindlers have agreed that she can not recover and that her brain is gone. The only reason that there is some controversy is because some people who use their PhDs to pretend to be experts (which many people here buy, for some reason) have said things to the contrary. All for political, religious, or some other reason that has nothing to do with the truth.
I don't think that we have any right to complain since we've not been in his shoes. Sure, the fact that he's moved on in some ways is not what we all view as moral. However, he has proven many times over that he cares for Terri, much more than the parents who are keeping her corpse alive for selfish reasons. Even in their case though, I find it difficult to condemn them because I've never been in that situation so I don't know how I would react.
That is a joke, because you can marry in a Catholic church without being Catholic or abiding by their rules. Even then, the whole conspiracy of the Catholic marriage is pretty extreme and there is absolutely no evidence of it. It just shows how weak the views of those who oppose Michael carrying out his wife's wishes are. The Catholic church marries divorcees.
Not really, since he spent it all on caring for Terri and lawyer fees with the Schindlers.
Someone either paid her to come out and say that or she is a habitual liar. It's highly unlikely that if Michael Schiavo wanted to have Terri killed, he would have attempted something that could be considered murder, kidnapping, or anything else like that.
More than 80% of Americans agree with you. On this site we sometimes get the more extreme religious viewpoint because some folks have moved on from TWI to another cult without changing behavior or their easily-victimized mind. Very few people would want their corpse to be kept alive unnaturally, very few would want to interfere with the wishes of a wife based upon the word of a husband who has shown dedication to her, and very few believe that the federal government has any business interfering with private family business.
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LG
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waterbuffalo
Interesting article--Neurologists say autopsy won't prove or disprove vegetative state:
http://www.medpagetoday.com//tbindex.cfm?tbid=789
If you click on "Neurology" on the left side, the article will pull up at the top, but apparently you have to login now to read it. Sorry.
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krys
Very small quantities of morphine are used to ease breathing in imobile patients. It happened to me.
I have chronic breathing problems and last May when I had that catastrophic accident, I was positioned in such a way that breathing would be difficult anyway. My arms were strapped, splinted or hung in such a way that my chest couldn't move easily.
I was given something for pain because there was a lot of it....but I became quite short of breath after the second day and a very small dose of morphine was added to my IV and it was very helpful.
However much or little was used was not touching the pain and when I asked the nurse if I could have something for pain she came quickly with a shot! But it wasn't morphine. After the ER they changed the pain med to something else...but I forgot what they used.
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vickles
So, because I disagree with you, you believe that I still have a twi mindset. I would think that disagreeing with most people would be because I am thinking for myself and not doing the 'group think' thing.
I could say that people here at greasespot that disagree with me is because they still have that mentality hearts are hardened because she is doesn't have money to pay for medical bills so lets kill her. But I won't say that just because you disagree with me....
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