Here is the bone scan report. I can go with LongGone's assertion that the ribs were from CPR. Possibly the L1 (although that is a little low, T8-T12 would be more normal)
Some words on compression fractures:
quote:
Causes of a Compression Fracture of the Spine?
Compression fractures are the most common type of fracture found in the thoracolumbar spine, occurring in 9 out of 10,000 people. They happen as a result of force pushing together the anterior (towards the front of the body) part of the vertebrae. Hyperflexion, the extreme bending of the spine in one direction, sometimes plays a part in the fracture. If the injury occurs while falling from a height, the heel bones are often fractured at the same time.
Because an injury of this type is generally caused by significant trauma, other damage may result as well, such as ligament damage, nerve root or spinal cord damage. Because the bones in the back are positioned so close to the spinal cord, spinal injuries are always serious.
Honestly, the bone scan results sound like something that one would have following a really bad car accident. Although, as people can see from my input on the Schiavo thread in 'tacks (I won't bother repeating it here), I question Schiavo's ability to be a competent guardian, I think that the broken bone issue is questionable. There is no way that Theresa Marie wouldn't have to have treatment for those broken bones. If this was the result of an assault, I am certain that this would have been documented in separate medical records and brought out by the parents or the Guardian ad Litem during earlier court proceedings, had that been the case.
If anybody is interested in the subject, I'd like to refer folks to three (IMO) very well-written articles produced by the Hastings Center (a nonpartisan bioethics think tank).
The first two articles give a good, neutral, view of the Schiavo case and examine it in light of bioethics:
Mark, I believe the "L1" refers to lumbar vertebra 1, rather than to rib 1 L.
Didn't say otherwise. And T8-T12 refer to the thoracic spine. CPR, if not administered on a completely flat, solid surface, can cause damage to the thoracic spine. The report, above, indicates damage to multiple ribs, to several of the thoracic vertebral bodies, and a compression fracture to the L1 vertebra. My comments merely indicate that the likelihood is that damage to the L1 would be highly unlikely due to CPR.
My mistake, Mark. I completely missed "(although that is a little low, T8-T12 would be more normal)" when I first read your post, and responded too quickly. What you said was clear and correct.
Note to self: Don't try to read and post on Internet forums while fielding phone calls from insane (not really) relatives.
(I was getting back and forth calls from my mother and a sister, who were disagreeing about something really stupid.)
Mark, I know you mean well but to post a medical report without the written permission of the patient or the patient's legal guardian, it is AGAINST THE LAW! Please be very careful what you post. That report needs to be deleted in my opinion.
I am familiar with the HIPAA Privacy Rules also. But I didn't publish this document to the web; I am just linking to it. The publisher is the "Hospice Patients Alliance." The image file is located on their web site. The post merely has a link to that image.
Feeding tubes are removed all the time. If this is inhumane then where has all the outrage been all along?
Why all the attention on this woman when this happens thousands of times in America every day?
I'm sorry I don't remember where I saw this article, but I read on a "right to die" site, (They want legalization of Physician assisted suicide, etc), that removal of a feeding tube is a horrible way to die. Sorry I don't have a link--maybe someone can do a search on right to die sites?
I won't be able to--I probably won't be in here for at least a week, as moving day is Monday and i still have stuff to get ready tomorrow.
My own opinion of this--I don't know for sure which side is right. Did Terri really tell her husband she'd want to be taken off life support? The witnesses are Mike's family! hmmmm!
Or are Terri's parents the ones way off base?
I tend to lean towards the parents than the so-called "loving husband"--ya know, the one that has another "wife".
Whether or not she Really is in a persistent vegatative state, again, I don't really know. I lean towards the reports that say she is responsive. (Yes, even after the pictures of Terri's brain-- again, reading other Dr's comments as to this water. . .)
But being starved and dehydrated to death is inhumane to me-- vegatative state or not. Criminals on death row, or pets get "put to sleep" painlessly, but if someone decides your quality of life is bad, due to brain damage, well, we can starve that one? hmmmm
I don't remember who said the "yabbut" to Bowtwi's comment to Terri's feeling pain during her period, stating that if her brain has deteriorated so much that she's feeling no pain nowadays-- WHat if that is just spin? Totally inhumane!!!!
And even if Terri isn't feeling pain-- what about the others who have been pulled of their feeding tube--or others after her? What if THEY CAN feel the pain? INHUMANE AND INSANE!!!
I don't believe this whole thing is about Terri, Mike or Terri's parents--it's about anybody from here on where someone else can decide whether another person's quality of life is "good enough" and whether we can let them die in such a horrible way.
I think we are on a slippery slope--But that's not news to me IMO -->
The descriptions I have read about this method of dying follows very closely to what I saw as we stayed by my mother's bed as she passed away.
The actual cause of death is dehydration. The body organs begin to shut down one by one. Blood circulation becomes limited in the extremities. those body parts turn blueish and gray. There is a calmness. There is peace, for the patient and for the family. I am thankful this is the way it went for us.
In our case, we were permitted to provide pain pills, however the last 48 hours, even these were difficult to administer, and were seldom given. It was apparent that they were no longer needed by my mother, but we tried, more for our own comfort than anything else, "just in case".
I taught my siblings, "Peace, Peace, wonderful Peace", which we sang to her the last 15 minutes. Mother smiled as she drifted towards her new address.
I know it is not always this way, some must struggle more, OFTEN because of their circumstances, or often because of an unwillngness by family members to let it go. I pray the death of your loved ones could be as calm as my isolated but nevertheless true and available experience. Thanks, I needed to share that.
The husband is so set on honoring Terri's wishes. What about until death due us part or in sickness & health forsaking all others?
Terri was confined to the room she is dying in for the last 8 or so years, No TV, Radio of music. The family couldn't take her out, she has had no fresh air or sunlight for those 8 years. Sounds like a real loving husband to me.
When someone has brain damage and is not stimulated the brain will deterirate even futher.
According to testimony by many witnesses the husband said he didn't know what her wishes were. 20 year old kids don't normally discuss such matters.
The only Judge who really looked at all the evidence once said outside of this case that people should not be keep alive artificially.
IMO both the Judge and the husband should have been disquailfied from making discisions on this poor woman's life.
The husband has a court order to immediatly creamate the body and bury the ashes in Pa.
He also won't allow Terri to receive communion.
Sounds like a real loving husband to me.
He will have to face God someday & the judgement won't be corrupted.
God help Terri die without any pain and suffering and her family recover from this horrific situation.
I don't understand why we, as a society, know how we'd do something, how someone else should do something, etc., when we've never been there.
We don't know what conversations this woman and her husband had in the privacy of their marriage and home.
Have we ever had to fight the battle of these families?
My husband, after a massive heart attack, had been without oxygen for 45 minutes, when there were life signs for a short bit and then he died.
Had he recovered and lived, what might his life had been like?
I knew the man and I can tell you he would NOT have wanted to live like this woman in Florida. I would have fought til my own death to not have that happen to him. Fought his family, his children, anyone I had to fight to get 'the plug pulled.' In addition, my standing before God one day would not be a problem for me had this been the reality.
Ask your spouses what they'd want. You might be surprised at what you hear.
Do your advanced directives, living wills, check your states laws.
Figure out what YOU would do in same circumstances.
I agree that it is a personal choice, But not all prefer death. Cristopher Reed at first wanted to die, but changed his mind and decided to live. Terri's husband was no longer a faitful husband. It seems that there is and was lots of controvesy concerning this situation. If it seems rotten is just might be.
The man started a new family whould Terri had divorced him if she knew this? I would think so and then the parents would have the gardianship. True we don't know what they talked about in private, but young people tend not to discuss such matters and there is lots of testemony that he didn't know her true wishes.
Your situation is not this situation.
I believe he gave up the right to make decission for her when he started a new family.
I did have a sevely handicapped niece, she was like a 4 month old baby for her 21 years of life. She couldn't talk or walk she didn't reconize us and she had a feeding tube.
We all loved her dearly and would have fought like Terri's family to keep her with us.
Was her life a life of no value, I think not.
She brought joy and smiles to all who met her.
We grived when she died and there was no difference in the love we all had for her then that of all the healthy normal neices and nephews.
Quailty of life is not in wheather or not we fuction in a pre discribed fashion.
Sometimes it is appropriate to pull the plug but each family must make that choice.
I think Terri's husband wanted to cover his _ss
and that is the bases for all these years of trying to pull the plug. It wasn't out of love and committement that he choose to kill her. For years her deprived her of fresh air, music or any thing that would make her life more pleasent. Would you treat anyone you so called love in this fashion? I know you wouldn't, as most would not. That along says a lot about his true heart and intentions.
What really puzzles me is that so many Christians think what is happening to Terry Schiavo is inhumane but seem to have no qualms at all with God torturing billions for all eternity in hell.
1search, why don't you go to the doctrinal section and read the thread on universalism. Many Christians believe ALL men will be saved - believer and unbeliever. God will not be throwing unbelievers into "hell" (a pagan concept). You might find it interesting.
I am a christian which I define as one who follows Christ .
Not all christians believe the same regarding the end times and death. Most do believe in life eternal for the people who chose christ as LORD.
I personaly do NOT believe God will burn people in hell for eternity, John S. and CES has done some research on this topic and has a different view on how those who DENY christ as LORD .They will indeed burn, but only for a time, not forever.
This is the person own choosing in life actualy when given the choice to follow the KING into the Kingdom or not, the only other choice is death by fire. Basic bible story stuff of choosing your OWN choice is happening in the bible story. Terry is not making the choice to die today somone eles is choosing this for her. Murder is sin. No one who denies Jesus christ will be alowed life eternal. basic christian stuff . Another application one may look at is sucicide ok? If terry did give the directive to die by starvation would it be suicide given we do have the measures to keep her alive ? some thoughts to consider.
This changes the topic of this thread, to see more information on this topic go to the link for CES above, then go to the truth and tradition website link on that sight and put it inthe search box.
You could also start another thread on hell and the punishments of God etc.
What really puzzles me is that so many Christians think what is happening to Terry Schiavo is inhumane but seem to have no qualms at all with God torturing billions for all eternity in hell.
1searcher i believe i understand your observations about most christians and their hypocrisy
"chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy. He said her husband wants definitive proof showing the extent of her brain damage".
- Theresa Schiavo is in a vegetative state. "She" is not really there anymore, because the brain is basically gone. She just has motor functions.
- Starvation and dehydration is a very good way to go, right? It is peaceful, in fact, gives one a sense of euphoria before you go (something to do with excessive ammonia)
- So, according to the husband's side, there are "no worries, mate," she's going easily.
Do I have the picture right here?
So, why then is she being given morphine? Both sides agree that she has been given morphine, the only question is the amount (the family's side says she is on a drip -- that makes no sense to me to put an IV in if you're trying to dehydrate something -- and the husband's side acknowledges she's been given morphine suppositories -- see here for details)
If its peaceful and easy and euphoric, there should be no need for morphine, right? If she is a total vegetable, there is not really anybody there to give the morphine to, right?
So, this makes no sense to me...Can somebody help me out with this?
The morphine is not for pain. It is to make the respiratory functions less dire. Apparently during this type of death, the breathing speeds up and down and it does appear the patient is in respiratory distress. This must be done more for the families than for Terri herself (if she is not feeling pain).
They did this for my father during the last several hours of his life.
It's not like all our dead soldiers in Iraq, all the innocent Iraqi civilians killed, or all of the people who have suffered because of his reversal of worker safety policies or environmental policies would count towards that. If anything, Bush is a sociopathic mass-murderer. His bill to pull the plug on people whose families don't pay the bills on time (which is nearing 100% of the time as health insurance becomes less effective and more corrupt) is just one of many acts of corruption and possibly something approaching murder count.
The war in Iraq is no different than if he had hired hitmen to murder the soldiers rather than sending them to Iraq over lies and greed.
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markomalley
Here is the bone scan report. I can go with LongGone's assertion that the ribs were from CPR. Possibly the L1 (although that is a little low, T8-T12 would be more normal)
Some words on compression fractures:
From the Dynomed Patient encyclopedia.Honestly, the bone scan results sound like something that one would have following a really bad car accident. Although, as people can see from my input on the Schiavo thread in 'tacks (I won't bother repeating it here), I question Schiavo's ability to be a competent guardian, I think that the broken bone issue is questionable. There is no way that Theresa Marie wouldn't have to have treatment for those broken bones. If this was the result of an assault, I am certain that this would have been documented in separate medical records and brought out by the parents or the Guardian ad Litem during earlier court proceedings, had that been the case.
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LG
Mark, I believe the "L1" refers to lumbar vertebra 1, rather than to rib 1 L.
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markomalley
If anybody is interested in the subject, I'd like to refer folks to three (IMO) very well-written articles produced by the Hastings Center (a nonpartisan bioethics think tank).
The first two articles give a good, neutral, view of the Schiavo case and examine it in light of bioethics:
, From the May-Jun 2004 Hastings Center Report.
Rethinking Disorders of Consciousness: New Research and Its Implications, from the Mar-Apr 2005 Hastings Center Report.
This third article doesn't directly talk about Schiavo, but it does talk about the issue at hand. Medically Assisted Nutrition and Hydration: A Contribution to the Dialogue.
All three articles have information that both sides on the issue will agree with. They all also have information that both sides will challenge.
Hope that some may enjoy and get something out of them.
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markomalley
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LG
My mistake, Mark. I completely missed "(although that is a little low, T8-T12 would be more normal)" when I first read your post, and responded too quickly. What you said was clear and correct.
Note to self: Don't try to read and post on Internet forums while fielding phone calls from insane (not really) relatives.
(I was getting back and forth calls from my mother and a sister, who were disagreeing about something really stupid.)
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Watered Garden
Mark, I know you mean well but to post a medical report without the written permission of the patient or the patient's legal guardian, it is AGAINST THE LAW! Please be very careful what you post. That report needs to be deleted in my opinion.
Trust me. I deal with HIPPA every day.
WG
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markomalley
I am familiar with the HIPAA Privacy Rules also. But I didn't publish this document to the web; I am just linking to it. The publisher is the "Hospice Patients Alliance." The image file is located on their web site. The post merely has a link to that image.
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Psalm 71 one
Rottie you asked
I'm sorry I don't remember where I saw this article, but I read on a "right to die" site, (They want legalization of Physician assisted suicide, etc), that removal of a feeding tube is a horrible way to die. Sorry I don't have a link--maybe someone can do a search on right to die sites?
I won't be able to--I probably won't be in here for at least a week, as moving day is Monday and i still have stuff to get ready tomorrow.
My own opinion of this--I don't know for sure which side is right. Did Terri really tell her husband she'd want to be taken off life support? The witnesses are Mike's family! hmmmm!
Or are Terri's parents the ones way off base?
I tend to lean towards the parents than the so-called "loving husband"--ya know, the one that has another "wife".
Whether or not she Really is in a persistent vegatative state, again, I don't really know. I lean towards the reports that say she is responsive. (Yes, even after the pictures of Terri's brain-- again, reading other Dr's comments as to this water. . .)
But being starved and dehydrated to death is inhumane to me-- vegatative state or not. Criminals on death row, or pets get "put to sleep" painlessly, but if someone decides your quality of life is bad, due to brain damage, well, we can starve that one? hmmmm
I don't remember who said the "yabbut" to Bowtwi's comment to Terri's feeling pain during her period, stating that if her brain has deteriorated so much that she's feeling no pain nowadays-- WHat if that is just spin? Totally inhumane!!!!
And even if Terri isn't feeling pain-- what about the others who have been pulled of their feeding tube--or others after her? What if THEY CAN feel the pain? INHUMANE AND INSANE!!!
I don't believe this whole thing is about Terri, Mike or Terri's parents--it's about anybody from here on where someone else can decide whether another person's quality of life is "good enough" and whether we can let them die in such a horrible way.
I think we are on a slippery slope--But that's not news to me IMO
-->
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HAPe4me
The descriptions I have read about this method of dying follows very closely to what I saw as we stayed by my mother's bed as she passed away.
The actual cause of death is dehydration. The body organs begin to shut down one by one. Blood circulation becomes limited in the extremities. those body parts turn blueish and gray. There is a calmness. There is peace, for the patient and for the family. I am thankful this is the way it went for us.
In our case, we were permitted to provide pain pills, however the last 48 hours, even these were difficult to administer, and were seldom given. It was apparent that they were no longer needed by my mother, but we tried, more for our own comfort than anything else, "just in case".
I taught my siblings, "Peace, Peace, wonderful Peace", which we sang to her the last 15 minutes. Mother smiled as she drifted towards her new address.
I know it is not always this way, some must struggle more, OFTEN because of their circumstances, or often because of an unwillngness by family members to let it go. I pray the death of your loved ones could be as calm as my isolated but nevertheless true and available experience. Thanks, I needed to share that.
Peace,
HAP
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Grease Spot
The husband is so set on honoring Terri's wishes. What about until death due us part or in sickness & health forsaking all others?
Terri was confined to the room she is dying in for the last 8 or so years, No TV, Radio of music. The family couldn't take her out, she has had no fresh air or sunlight for those 8 years. Sounds like a real loving husband to me.
When someone has brain damage and is not stimulated the brain will deterirate even futher.
According to testimony by many witnesses the husband said he didn't know what her wishes were. 20 year old kids don't normally discuss such matters.
The only Judge who really looked at all the evidence once said outside of this case that people should not be keep alive artificially.
IMO both the Judge and the husband should have been disquailfied from making discisions on this poor woman's life.
The husband has a court order to immediatly creamate the body and bury the ashes in Pa.
He also won't allow Terri to receive communion.
Sounds like a real loving husband to me.
He will have to face God someday & the judgement won't be corrupted.
God help Terri die without any pain and suffering and her family recover from this horrific situation.
Patty
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Psalm 71 one
That immediate creamtion makes me go hmm, too. Why? could he be hiding something?
GS, you are so right, He will have to answer to God one day. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes.
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Shellon
I don't understand why we, as a society, know how we'd do something, how someone else should do something, etc., when we've never been there.
We don't know what conversations this woman and her husband had in the privacy of their marriage and home.
Have we ever had to fight the battle of these families?
My husband, after a massive heart attack, had been without oxygen for 45 minutes, when there were life signs for a short bit and then he died.
Had he recovered and lived, what might his life had been like?
I knew the man and I can tell you he would NOT have wanted to live like this woman in Florida. I would have fought til my own death to not have that happen to him. Fought his family, his children, anyone I had to fight to get 'the plug pulled.' In addition, my standing before God one day would not be a problem for me had this been the reality.
Ask your spouses what they'd want. You might be surprised at what you hear.
Do your advanced directives, living wills, check your states laws.
Figure out what YOU would do in same circumstances.
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Kit Sober
This guy is not like you, Dear Shellon.
Sounds to me like this guy is a class A xxxxxxx.
Kit
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Grease Spot
Shellon,
I agree that it is a personal choice, But not all prefer death. Cristopher Reed at first wanted to die, but changed his mind and decided to live. Terri's husband was no longer a faitful husband. It seems that there is and was lots of controvesy concerning this situation. If it seems rotten is just might be.
The man started a new family whould Terri had divorced him if she knew this? I would think so and then the parents would have the gardianship. True we don't know what they talked about in private, but young people tend not to discuss such matters and there is lots of testemony that he didn't know her true wishes.
Your situation is not this situation.
I believe he gave up the right to make decission for her when he started a new family.
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Grease Spot
Shellon,
I did have a sevely handicapped niece, she was like a 4 month old baby for her 21 years of life. She couldn't talk or walk she didn't reconize us and she had a feeding tube.
We all loved her dearly and would have fought like Terri's family to keep her with us.
Was her life a life of no value, I think not.
She brought joy and smiles to all who met her.
We grived when she died and there was no difference in the love we all had for her then that of all the healthy normal neices and nephews.
Quailty of life is not in wheather or not we fuction in a pre discribed fashion.
Sometimes it is appropriate to pull the plug but each family must make that choice.
I think Terri's husband wanted to cover his _ss
and that is the bases for all these years of trying to pull the plug. It wasn't out of love and committement that he choose to kill her. For years her deprived her of fresh air, music or any thing that would make her life more pleasent. Would you treat anyone you so called love in this fashion? I know you wouldn't, as most would not. That along says a lot about his true heart and intentions.
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Shellon
Understood.
But I still ask you to have these conversations with your spouse/partner and see what they would want.
Noone ever really knows exactly what is going on unless it's their own life.
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1searcher
Sorry, but this has been on my mind recently.
What really puzzles me is that so many Christians think what is happening to Terry Schiavo is inhumane but seem to have no qualms at all with God torturing billions for all eternity in hell.
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Sunesis
1search, why don't you go to the doctrinal section and read the thread on universalism. Many Christians believe ALL men will be saved - believer and unbeliever. God will not be throwing unbelievers into "hell" (a pagan concept). You might find it interesting.
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mj412
1 searcher
I am a christian which I define as one who follows Christ .
Not all christians believe the same regarding the end times and death. Most do believe in life eternal for the people who chose christ as LORD.
I personaly do NOT believe God will burn people in hell for eternity, John S. and CES has done some research on this topic and has a different view on how those who DENY christ as LORD .They will indeed burn, but only for a time, not forever.
This is the person own choosing in life actualy when given the choice to follow the KING into the Kingdom or not, the only other choice is death by fire. Basic bible story stuff of choosing your OWN choice is happening in the bible story. Terry is not making the choice to die today somone eles is choosing this for her. Murder is sin. No one who denies Jesus christ will be alowed life eternal. basic christian stuff . Another application one may look at is sucicide ok? If terry did give the directive to die by starvation would it be suicide given we do have the measures to keep her alive ? some thoughts to consider.
This changes the topic of this thread, to see more information on this topic go to the link for CES above, then go to the truth and tradition website link on that sight and put it inthe search box.
You could also start another thread on hell and the punishments of God etc.
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excathedra
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Shellon
"chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy. He said her husband wants definitive proof showing the extent of her brain damage".
credit www.houstonchronicle.com
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markomalley
So, let me see if I understand here:
- Theresa Schiavo is in a vegetative state. "She" is not really there anymore, because the brain is basically gone. She just has motor functions.
- Starvation and dehydration is a very good way to go, right? It is peaceful, in fact, gives one a sense of euphoria before you go (something to do with excessive ammonia)
- So, according to the husband's side, there are "no worries, mate," she's going easily.
Do I have the picture right here?
So, why then is she being given morphine? Both sides agree that she has been given morphine, the only question is the amount (the family's side says she is on a drip -- that makes no sense to me to put an IV in if you're trying to dehydrate something -- and the husband's side acknowledges she's been given morphine suppositories -- see here for details)
If its peaceful and easy and euphoric, there should be no need for morphine, right? If she is a total vegetable, there is not really anybody there to give the morphine to, right?
So, this makes no sense to me...Can somebody help me out with this?
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outofdafog
The morphine is not for pain. It is to make the respiratory functions less dire. Apparently during this type of death, the breathing speeds up and down and it does appear the patient is in respiratory distress. This must be done more for the families than for Terri herself (if she is not feeling pain).
They did this for my father during the last several hours of his life.
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Mister P-Mosh
It's not like all our dead soldiers in Iraq, all the innocent Iraqi civilians killed, or all of the people who have suffered because of his reversal of worker safety policies or environmental policies would count towards that. If anything, Bush is a sociopathic mass-murderer. His bill to pull the plug on people whose families don't pay the bills on time (which is nearing 100% of the time as health insurance becomes less effective and more corrupt) is just one of many acts of corruption and possibly something approaching murder count.
The war in Iraq is no different than if he had hired hitmen to murder the soldiers rather than sending them to Iraq over lies and greed.
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