excathedra, If you don't mind, could you please describe a person with "heart"? What does a person with "heart" say or do? How does a person with "heart" behave on an internet discussion board? What do you use as indicators to identify those with "heart" and those without?
You have described Zixar as "cruel." While he's about as polished as Oakspear's WOWmobile, and can sometimes be too brash, or too crude, or too low in his search for a fitting analogy, what makes him "cruel," and how does his cruelty differ in degree from your almost constant derision?
I walked into this latest conflict when Dot wrote her post about why she was no longer comfortable posting at GreaseSpot. From what I read on the threads, it seemed to me that Zixar's interest in this whole thing (and, Zixar, please correct me if I'm wrong) was to preserve a place for Dot to post, so that GreaseSpot wouldn't lose yet another thoughtful, caring, articulate poster. I admired her for her honesty, for making such a private decision so public, and even hoped that her announcement might lead to a thoughtful discussion. Instead she was publicly berated, first here, then worse at JWO, while most of her friends stood silently by. Except Zixar.
One of the things I've enjoyed about GreaseSpot is that the conversation can turn to movies, religion, politics, art, ethics, whatever, without becoming stuffy and intellectual, which I think is because we, by and large, are an introspective bunch. Sometimes during these debates, things get very personal, and we get lost in issues like whether a thread or a post or a person belongs here or not. I like to think that is because (again, for the most part) there are people here who still care about right and wrong, and who value goodness.
But is there really a "fundamentalist" attitude here? For as long as I've been here, people have been accused of WayBrain, and usually that label is used for those who are opinionated, or submissive, or argumentative, or conciliatory, or unyielding, or flustered, or stubborn, or compromising. In other words, most of us have been diagnosed with it, and made the diagnosis in others, most likely without even knowing what it means. I don't think there is a "group think" here, as much as people like to say so. However, at one time or another, most of us have been called into question over a belief, or an idea, or a perspective, or an opinion. If nothing else, GreaseSpot is a good place to practice self-defense.
I read through your rebuttal, even though it is a little hard to follow. I'm not even sure exactly what point you're refuting. Is this an attempt to clear your name? To further prove your point that the Bible is BS? Why did you write this?
Your major point seems to be that because we did not form ourselves, we also have no responsibility for ourselves, and are incapable of making choices that affect our own lives. Do you really believe that's what the Bible teaches? If so, you're right to dismiss it. It's nonsense. So why make a point that is so obviously ridiculous?
i don't know if these bible thumping word warrior smarty pants are worth your while
love,
a fellow dustbunny
hey the bible is bullsheet
ok who is going to have the heart attack now ?
the ones with the all the heart i'm sure
You're probably right exie, but at least i know what kind of charity i can expect from those who hold the bible in high esteem. I think the spirit of TWI remains in these people.
I read through your rebuttal, even though it is a little hard to follow. I'm not even sure exactly what point you're refuting. Is this an attempt to clear your name? To further prove your point that the Bible is BS? Why did you write this?
Your major point seems to be that because we did not form ourselves, we also have no responsibility for ourselves, and are incapable of making choices that affect our own lives. Do you really believe that's what the Bible teaches? If so, you're right to dismiss it. It's nonsense. So why make a point that is so obviously ridiculous?
Laleo, if what I said doesn't apply to you, then there's no need for you to understand. I did not fashion the post for a particular individual. You get from it what you are going to get from it. I don't feel I need to explain the message nor the reason for the post. And no, I'm not trying to "clear" my name. There's no need to. If scum is going to hate me, then scum is going to hate me. If they liked me they wouldn't be scum now, would they? I am absolutely powerless to convince scum to find me likeable. The only ....lists i'm on all belong to scum. People of honor find me rather a consciensious person. In the live and in person real world, I have very few enemies. As for my friends, they are also aware of my opinions, and they may not agree with them, but they also know me well so they understand where I'm coming from.
Bible thumping word warrior smarty pants? What do you have against competance? Someone knows the bible, some can form an articulate sentence, and you somehow don't like that? Ignorance showing contempt for knowledge: too common these days, no more valid for all it's frequency.
Chuck posted the same thing on JWO, except it had this little preamble attached:
quote:Click on the link above the see the thread that has been designed by a coward to flame me about posts made here. The person who started the thread is scared ****less to make that thread here because he knows this is unmoderated and uncensored. He needs the protection of his Nazi storm troopers and the powers of censorship to protect him from getting flamed.
Well below is the post that I had replied to the thread. [...]
It's just another pathetic troll for a fight. Still, the moderators have chosen to leave it, so, Chuck, you might as well come back and fling your filth here.
If I may, I'll put my responses in bold within the quote. I also "broke up" the quote for the responses (I don't think it ruins the context). Here we go...
quote:laleo said:
From what I read on the threads, it seemed to me that Zixar's interest in this whole thing (and, Zixar, please correct me if I'm wrong) was to preserve a place for Dot to post, so that GreaseSpot wouldn't lose yet another thoughtful, caring, articulate poster.
You brought her up, not me, Dot is my friend but I didn't know that this place needed to be "preserved" for her or anyone else. As I've said before, from reading her posts on the subject, she said she was not happy with herself for not taking a stand earlier and that she preferred to post at a "Christian" site. That's her prerogative.
I admired her for her honesty, for making such a private decision so public, and even hoped that her announcement might lead to a thoughtful discussion. Instead she was publicly berated, first here, then worse at JWO, while most of her friends stood silently by. Except Zixar.
You have posted before that she was "publicly berated". Unless you mean that when someone posted that they didn't agree with her but wished her well on her journey, I just didn't see ANY public berating of her. I did see "other posters" get into arguments back and forth over things THEY said about the situation... but I didn't see anyone publicly berating her HERE.
Zixar, if that's how you view it (I'm not arguing against that view with you)... why do you "feed the beast" by responding? Trolls post to get a reaction right? Why give them the reaction they desire? Why not just let it go? It'll disappear...
Tom: If I were going to "feed the beast", I'd go over to JWO and tell him exactly what I think of him. If you'll go over there and read, you'll see that it doesn't just "go away", either. Why do you think I keep harping on it here? I've seen firsthand that if this sort of crap is not dealt with, an otherwise-innocuous site like GreaseSpot will become JWO-2. Now, if that's what everyone really wants, they might as well quit pussyfooting around and toss all the rules out the window now.
You brought her up, not me, Dot is my friend but I didn't know that this place needed to be "preserved" for her or anyone else. As I've said before, from reading her posts on the subject, she said she was not happy with herself for not taking a stand earlier and that she preferred to post at a "Christian" site. That's her prerogative.
I don't know what you're referring to. Yes, I brought her up, because that was the point where I became aware of, and began following, this conflict. But when did I say anything to you or about you insofar as Dot is concerned?
My post isn't even directed at you. As far as whether or not Dot is your "friend," well, considering your advice to her, I'd be surprised if you were anything more than a friendly internet acquaintance, a relationship she maintains more out of politeness than anything else. Your indifference to her well-being would pretty much smother any feeling of friendship, I would think.
As far as whether GreaseSpot needs to be "preserved" for anyone, it is most definitely "preserved" for the "victims," who are routinely fed a diet of pity and flattery (which has only increased their bitterness, to judge from the tone of some of their posts), and anyone who offers anything less is quickly shown the door. So, yes, this place is being
"preserved." I don't understand why it isn't also "preserved" for those who want a place to express their Christianity.
You have posted before that she was "publicly berated".
When? Where? I think she was, but I don't remember saying so before now.
Unless you mean that when someone posted that they didn't agree with her but wished her well on her journey, I just didn't see ANY public berating of her. I did see "other posters" get into arguments back and forth over things THEY said about the situation... but I didn't see anyone publicly berating her HERE.
Maybe you're not aware of your own callousness, but when someone is upset about something (in this case, being publicly ridiculed), and she (I'll keep the pronouns feminine, since maybe this is one of those male/female divides)
is told by a friend to "Let it go," "Disregard it," "It doesn't matter," it only adds the sting of indifference to the sting of betrayal. Translated, it says to me, "Don't bother me with your petty concerns. I'm not interested."
Zixar: I think I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I don't think more rules are the solution. Internet communities are dynamic, always shifting, adjusting to changing forces. There is an ebb and flow to any relationship, and this may be one of those times that you are standing alone on the beach watching helplessly as the tide goes out.
Think what you wish laleo, that's your prerogative. You know nothing of my relationship with her but feel free to judge if you wish. My "indifference to her"? So you also know of my private communications with her? She decided GSC was a place she didn't want to be. I and many others pleaded with her not to leave, but it was what she wanted to do. Again, unless she shared with you my private communications with her, you don't know.
"I don't understand why it isn't also "preserved" for those who want a place to express their Christianity." Since when is it not a place for folks to express their Christianity? I read posts all over the place here of people doing that. Nice try.
Your statement about the poor "victims who are routinely fed a diet of pity and flattery"... I don't know where you're really going here...
"The sting of betrayal"... nice laleo, real nice... judge away... you're doing a swell job.
Sorry to disappoint you, Tom, but I know what I'm talking about, regardless of what I know or don't know about any private communications. It's all right here, on the public threads.
Do you really think that calling me dishonest makes me so? Come off it.
first of all laleo whatever you think about my friendship with dottie is none of your business
This is ridiculous. Whatever I think about anything is most definitely my business. I brought up Dot only because of the role she played in this most recent conflict. For a timeline, and also because it seemed to me that Zixar was misunderstood insofar as what he was trying to accomplish. His "heart" was right. He was trying to help Dot.
one of my indicators about heart and cruelty, is how one treats someone who just lost their very own brother
That's fair enough. I didn't really follow what was going on with Chuck and his brother. Maybe this was common knowledge to everyone else, but not to me. Did Zixar know? Did Dot know? Did he tell them he was lashing out because of his loss? If so, that would change things. But there's a whole lot more going on here than Chuck's loss.
your referring to dot and the sting of her making a choice to leave greasespot (as compared to the sting of death) reminds of the big toe analogy
I thought the toe analogy was funny. Maybe a little misplaced, but funny nonetheless. I wasn't comparing Dot's choice to Chuck's loss. If I had, then you would be correct. It's an unfair analogy. I didn't make any analogy, though, between degrees of loss.
Yes, excathedra, she felt the sting of betrayal and the sting of indifference. What's so crazy or hard to understand about that?
for any number of reasons, I get bored or sick of it. Or certain posts rub me the wrong way. Or people don't respond to my posts as I may have unreasonably imagined they might have, if at all. To a certain extent much also depends on what is going on inside of me when I visit this site. Or what kind of mood I'm in. Or what circumstances I may be undergoing in my actual life outside of cyberspace. Visiting GS can be a delight - while at other times, it quite simply turns out to be a bore, the same old, same old. Without doubt, people can be jerks. But half the experience and reaction may depend on what I'm personally going through in my own mind and life.
It's been my observation that what transpires here in this site tends to play itself out again and again with other sites. Heck, my wife is a member of a fishing forum, but it could just as well be theological, with the same dramatics and flamings arising over such controversial topics as those who let fish go after catching them verses those who keep them.
I think in a number of cases, if one finds oneself taking this site perhaps a bit too seriously, or harbors certain expectations as to what it should or shouldn't be from any sense of personal dissatisfaction or heated interaction, or finds oneself perhaps spending too much time here - then it may be time to simply step back for awhile. Remove the bookmark. Take a break. Or go outside and "smell a flower" as Linda Z. suggested in another thread.
Also - GS is not the only forum in the world -we do have other choices. There are a vast number of forums on the internet covering a vast number of themes which one may visit and participate. For goodness sakes, go for a little variety and explore a few.
This post is not intended to be a cure-all, end-all to every issue being raised here - but I do think it helps to simply take a break from a forum for awhile, if unhappy with it for any reason. No grand exit posts are necessary. Just take a deep breath, remove the bookmark, let out a sigh, and walk away for awhile.
Chuck posted the same thing on JWO, except it had this little preamble attached:
::::snipped for brevity::::
It's just another pathetic troll for a fight. Still, the moderators have chosen to leave it, so, Chuck, you might as well come back and fling your filth here.
Zix, I really love the total free speech at JWO where I'm free to fling my filth. :D-->
But if you want to repeat anything I post at JWO over here at Greasespot, be my guest.
Tom: If I were going to "feed the beast", I'd go over to JWO and tell him exactly what I think of him. :::snip::::
Zix, I know what you think of me, and frankly I don't care. I have had a lot worse things said about me than what I suppose you think. You sure do set a good example for Christian charity.
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laleo
excathedra, If you don't mind, could you please describe a person with "heart"? What does a person with "heart" say or do? How does a person with "heart" behave on an internet discussion board? What do you use as indicators to identify those with "heart" and those without?
You have described Zixar as "cruel." While he's about as polished as Oakspear's WOWmobile, and can sometimes be too brash, or too crude, or too low in his search for a fitting analogy, what makes him "cruel," and how does his cruelty differ in degree from your almost constant derision?
I walked into this latest conflict when Dot wrote her post about why she was no longer comfortable posting at GreaseSpot. From what I read on the threads, it seemed to me that Zixar's interest in this whole thing (and, Zixar, please correct me if I'm wrong) was to preserve a place for Dot to post, so that GreaseSpot wouldn't lose yet another thoughtful, caring, articulate poster. I admired her for her honesty, for making such a private decision so public, and even hoped that her announcement might lead to a thoughtful discussion. Instead she was publicly berated, first here, then worse at JWO, while most of her friends stood silently by. Except Zixar.
One of the things I've enjoyed about GreaseSpot is that the conversation can turn to movies, religion, politics, art, ethics, whatever, without becoming stuffy and intellectual, which I think is because we, by and large, are an introspective bunch. Sometimes during these debates, things get very personal, and we get lost in issues like whether a thread or a post or a person belongs here or not. I like to think that is because (again, for the most part) there are people here who still care about right and wrong, and who value goodness.
But is there really a "fundamentalist" attitude here? For as long as I've been here, people have been accused of WayBrain, and usually that label is used for those who are opinionated, or submissive, or argumentative, or conciliatory, or unyielding, or flustered, or stubborn, or compromising. In other words, most of us have been diagnosed with it, and made the diagnosis in others, most likely without even knowing what it means. I don't think there is a "group think" here, as much as people like to say so. However, at one time or another, most of us have been called into question over a belief, or an idea, or a perspective, or an opinion. If nothing else, GreaseSpot is a good place to practice self-defense.
But what makes it "fundamentalist?"
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laleo
Chuck,
I read through your rebuttal, even though it is a little hard to follow. I'm not even sure exactly what point you're refuting. Is this an attempt to clear your name? To further prove your point that the Bible is BS? Why did you write this?
Your major point seems to be that because we did not form ourselves, we also have no responsibility for ourselves, and are incapable of making choices that affect our own lives. Do you really believe that's what the Bible teaches? If so, you're right to dismiss it. It's nonsense. So why make a point that is so obviously ridiculous?
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CKnapp3
You're probably right exie, but at least i know what kind of charity i can expect from those who hold the bible in high esteem. I think the spirit of TWI remains in these people.
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CKnapp3
Now Raf, you must have gotten some enjoyment out of the post, otherwise you wouldn't have offered any commentary.
:D-->
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CKnapp3
Laleo, if what I said doesn't apply to you, then there's no need for you to understand. I did not fashion the post for a particular individual. You get from it what you are going to get from it. I don't feel I need to explain the message nor the reason for the post. And no, I'm not trying to "clear" my name. There's no need to. If scum is going to hate me, then scum is going to hate me. If they liked me they wouldn't be scum now, would they? I am absolutely powerless to convince scum to find me likeable. The only ....lists i'm on all belong to scum. People of honor find me rather a consciensious person. In the live and in person real world, I have very few enemies. As for my friends, they are also aware of my opinions, and they may not agree with them, but they also know me well so they understand where I'm coming from.
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dmiller
Good to know bulls have sheets.
Now -- what do they use for blankees?? Or pillows?
(spoken with heart!)
:)-->
poor old bulls!! They need PETA behind them.
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Oakspear
Bible thumping word warrior smarty pants? What do you have against competance? Someone knows the bible, some can form an articulate sentence, and you somehow don't like that? Ignorance showing contempt for knowledge: too common these days, no more valid for all it's frequency.
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Zixar
Chuck posted the same thing on JWO, except it had this little preamble attached:
It's just another pathetic troll for a fight. Still, the moderators have chosen to leave it, so, Chuck, you might as well come back and fling your filth here.
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Tom Strange
If I may, I'll put my responses in bold within the quote. I also "broke up" the quote for the responses (I don't think it ruins the context). Here we go...
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Tom Strange
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Zixar
Tom: If I were going to "feed the beast", I'd go over to JWO and tell him exactly what I think of him. If you'll go over there and read, you'll see that it doesn't just "go away", either. Why do you think I keep harping on it here? I've seen firsthand that if this sort of crap is not dealt with, an otherwise-innocuous site like GreaseSpot will become JWO-2. Now, if that's what everyone really wants, they might as well quit pussyfooting around and toss all the rules out the window now.
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searcher
To a certain extent, people are defined by the rules they make for themselves, not the ones they are forced to obey.
It is not always pleasent to 'hear' what someone has to say outwith the enforced rules constraint, but it does say a lot about the person.
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Tom Strange
Zixar, please quit trying to use "I'm trying to save GSC" as your rallying cry... GSC does not need "saving".
You know what? They post a lot of stuff over there. If I want to read it, I will. If not, I won't.
What they do at JWO has nothing to do with GSC... except when someone brings it over here.
GSC will not become JWO-2, it's a different beast made up of different people.
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laleo
Tom:
You brought her up, not me, Dot is my friend but I didn't know that this place needed to be "preserved" for her or anyone else. As I've said before, from reading her posts on the subject, she said she was not happy with herself for not taking a stand earlier and that she preferred to post at a "Christian" site. That's her prerogative.
I don't know what you're referring to. Yes, I brought her up, because that was the point where I became aware of, and began following, this conflict. But when did I say anything to you or about you insofar as Dot is concerned?
My post isn't even directed at you. As far as whether or not Dot is your "friend," well, considering your advice to her, I'd be surprised if you were anything more than a friendly internet acquaintance, a relationship she maintains more out of politeness than anything else. Your indifference to her well-being would pretty much smother any feeling of friendship, I would think.
As far as whether GreaseSpot needs to be "preserved" for anyone, it is most definitely "preserved" for the "victims," who are routinely fed a diet of pity and flattery (which has only increased their bitterness, to judge from the tone of some of their posts), and anyone who offers anything less is quickly shown the door. So, yes, this place is being
"preserved." I don't understand why it isn't also "preserved" for those who want a place to express their Christianity.
You have posted before that she was "publicly berated".
When? Where? I think she was, but I don't remember saying so before now.
Unless you mean that when someone posted that they didn't agree with her but wished her well on her journey, I just didn't see ANY public berating of her. I did see "other posters" get into arguments back and forth over things THEY said about the situation... but I didn't see anyone publicly berating her HERE.
Maybe you're not aware of your own callousness, but when someone is upset about something (in this case, being publicly ridiculed), and she (I'll keep the pronouns feminine, since maybe this is one of those male/female divides)
is told by a friend to "Let it go," "Disregard it," "It doesn't matter," it only adds the sting of indifference to the sting of betrayal. Translated, it says to me, "Don't bother me with your petty concerns. I'm not interested."
Zixar: I think I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I don't think more rules are the solution. Internet communities are dynamic, always shifting, adjusting to changing forces. There is an ebb and flow to any relationship, and this may be one of those times that you are standing alone on the beach watching helplessly as the tide goes out.
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Zixar
laleo: I don't think I've ever met anyone more perceptive than you.
;)-->
Unfortunately, it looks like your keen eyes are once again right on the mark in this case.
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Tom Strange
Think what you wish laleo, that's your prerogative. You know nothing of my relationship with her but feel free to judge if you wish. My "indifference to her"? So you also know of my private communications with her? She decided GSC was a place she didn't want to be. I and many others pleaded with her not to leave, but it was what she wanted to do. Again, unless she shared with you my private communications with her, you don't know.
"I don't understand why it isn't also "preserved" for those who want a place to express their Christianity." Since when is it not a place for folks to express their Christianity? I read posts all over the place here of people doing that. Nice try.
Your statement about the poor "victims who are routinely fed a diet of pity and flattery"... I don't know where you're really going here...
"The sting of betrayal"... nice laleo, real nice... judge away... you're doing a swell job.
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laleo
Sorry to disappoint you, Tom, but I know what I'm talking about, regardless of what I know or don't know about any private communications. It's all right here, on the public threads.
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Tom Strange
Okay then... have a nice evening!
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excathedra
zixar and laleo, you're so keen and perceptive -- why don't you put honesty in there too -- and just address me by handle ?
first of all laleo whatever you think about my friendship with dottie is none of your business
one of my indicators about heart and cruelty, is how one treats someone who just lost their very own brother
your referring to dot and the sting of her making a choice to leave greasespot (as compared to the sting of death) reminds of the big toe analogy
okay i better stop now before i get anymore pity or flattery here.....
ps. i'm not bitter but i don't know how to debate that. i'll ask oakspear for advice
laleo, sting of indifference and sting of betrayal ? now you're making me crazy
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laleo
excathedra,
Do you really think that calling me dishonest makes me so? Come off it.
first of all laleo whatever you think about my friendship with dottie is none of your business
This is ridiculous. Whatever I think about anything is most definitely my business. I brought up Dot only because of the role she played in this most recent conflict. For a timeline, and also because it seemed to me that Zixar was misunderstood insofar as what he was trying to accomplish. His "heart" was right. He was trying to help Dot.
one of my indicators about heart and cruelty, is how one treats someone who just lost their very own brother
That's fair enough. I didn't really follow what was going on with Chuck and his brother. Maybe this was common knowledge to everyone else, but not to me. Did Zixar know? Did Dot know? Did he tell them he was lashing out because of his loss? If so, that would change things. But there's a whole lot more going on here than Chuck's loss.
your referring to dot and the sting of her making a choice to leave greasespot (as compared to the sting of death) reminds of the big toe analogy
I thought the toe analogy was funny. Maybe a little misplaced, but funny nonetheless. I wasn't comparing Dot's choice to Chuck's loss. If I had, then you would be correct. It's an unfair analogy. I didn't make any analogy, though, between degrees of loss.
Yes, excathedra, she felt the sting of betrayal and the sting of indifference. What's so crazy or hard to understand about that?
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TheInvisibleDan
Every so often, as oft may happen with any site,
for any number of reasons, I get bored or sick of it. Or certain posts rub me the wrong way. Or people don't respond to my posts as I may have unreasonably imagined they might have, if at all. To a certain extent much also depends on what is going on inside of me when I visit this site. Or what kind of mood I'm in. Or what circumstances I may be undergoing in my actual life outside of cyberspace. Visiting GS can be a delight - while at other times, it quite simply turns out to be a bore, the same old, same old. Without doubt, people can be jerks. But half the experience and reaction may depend on what I'm personally going through in my own mind and life.
It's been my observation that what transpires here in this site tends to play itself out again and again with other sites. Heck, my wife is a member of a fishing forum, but it could just as well be theological, with the same dramatics and flamings arising over such controversial topics as those who let fish go after catching them verses those who keep them.
I think in a number of cases, if one finds oneself taking this site perhaps a bit too seriously, or harbors certain expectations as to what it should or shouldn't be from any sense of personal dissatisfaction or heated interaction, or finds oneself perhaps spending too much time here - then it may be time to simply step back for awhile. Remove the bookmark. Take a break. Or go outside and "smell a flower" as Linda Z. suggested in another thread.
Also - GS is not the only forum in the world -we do have other choices. There are a vast number of forums on the internet covering a vast number of themes which one may visit and participate. For goodness sakes, go for a little variety and explore a few.
This post is not intended to be a cure-all, end-all to every issue being raised here - but I do think it helps to simply take a break from a forum for awhile, if unhappy with it for any reason. No grand exit posts are necessary. Just take a deep breath, remove the bookmark, let out a sigh, and walk away for awhile.
Danny
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CKnapp3
Zix, I really love the total free speech at JWO where I'm free to fling my filth.
:D-->
But if you want to repeat anything I post at JWO over here at Greasespot, be my guest.
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CKnapp3
Zix, I know what you think of me, and frankly I don't care. I have had a lot worse things said about me than what I suppose you think. You sure do set a good example for Christian charity.
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Zixar
I kind of doubt that.
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