Other than the whole Jesus = God vs. Jesus = Prophet thing, what is the difference between Islam and Christianity? From my perspective there are no real differences other than language.
Pmosh- I think the difference is that in the middle east it isn't Just a religion- It is a theocracy it is the religion and the government and the legal system all in one. Like OT hebrew culture- to change the political system is a direct attack on the religion.
The fact that the religion and political and financial all are controled by a few who can hide their personal interests behind religion just makes it worse.
As a note I think that Modern Israel is a Parlimentary democracy because it was founded primarily by european Jews- They had a european understanding of and comfort with that form of government that middle easterners of either hebrew or islam would not have.
I’m Glad you liked it. Let me add a couple of more points that may illuminate the situation in Iraq and the Islamic world as I see it
The Islamic empire spread rapidly from what is now Saudi Arabia in all directions thru the middle and Far East and northern Africa. Over time It splintered because of its size and human nature. The smaller splinters were conquered by larger stronger ones until there were two Moslem empires, One based in Egypt and one based in Turkey (The Ottoman Empire) The Egyptian empire was conquered by Napoleon in the 1800’s and then absorbed by Britain when they defeated him In world war one The Ottoman empire sided with the Austro Hungarian Empire (Germany) against France, England, and the US.
“Democracy vs. Divine Right to Rule” The ottomans lost and England took control of their Empire.
That’s a quick crude sketch but here is what I think it has left in the regions like Iraq.
They were once part of a great empire that decayed and was conquered- They were under British colonial influence for less than 50-100 years or not even one life time. Egypt and Palestine and India/Pakistan were under colonial rule for 100-200 years at least two if not three generations and this is probably how long it takes for the concepts of self government to take root.
One last point- all types governments are actually a form of Oligarchy- which is rule by a privileged few- even the good old USA (both leading candidates are definitely from that group – their only difference is what part of the voter base will vote for them- either way born and breed Oligarchs are in power). “Democracy” is not really what is needed to actually achieve the ideal of our goals in Iraq. The actual keys to individual prosperity and freedom for the “common people”- Those outside the oligarchy are these: First A legal system that provides equal protection for all. Second a stable monetary system and third free market capitalism. Through out recorded history empires have risen thru conquest and stayed healthy as long as and to the degree that that these three ideals were achieved and maintained. When these three were at their height in the Moslem empires they were at their Peak- During the Middle ages in Europe! Persia, Egypt, The OT Hebrews, Rome, England, China, Japan are other examples. The form of government is immaterial in my humble opinion.
Democracy plays to the masses of the West. I think we are trying to make sure Iraq will be de-stablized for years, much the same way Germany was after WWII.
Make them divided and impotent and they will cease to be warlike.
A stable Iraq has invaded Israel, Kuwait and Iran and killed millions.
Pmosh- I think the difference is that in the middle east it isn't Just a religion- It is a theocracy it is the religion and the government and the legal system all in one. Like OT hebrew culture- to change the political system is a direct attack on the religion.
That's a very good point, and one that it seems like the leaders of some countries like Saudi Arabia or the Taliban used to keep themselves in power.
quote:Originally posted by ckeer:
The fact that the religion and political and financial all are controled by a few who can hide their personal interests behind religion just makes it worse.
That's a good point, and I don't really see any solution for that which we can help the middle east with. It seems like they need revolution from within to reject the chains of religion and become free. Unfortunately, that would not be in the financial best interests of the U.S. so it would probably be shut down like Iran was.
quote:Originally posted by ckeer:
As a note I think that Modern Israel is a Parlimentary democracy because it was founded primarily by european Jews- They had a european understanding of and comfort with that form of government that middle easterners of either hebrew or islam would not have.
Good point. It seems to be that the best way to have a successful democracy is for the citizenry to step up to the plate and do something about it. I don't think what we have done in Iraq will lay the groundwork for a strong democratic nation. However, I don't really know what we can do to encourage it.
That's because from _your_ perspective you see only that which supports the postion you have taken. You see only what you choose to see.
Kinda like twi brain.
And you are a master of Islamic doctrine, who has an unbiased view of religions that are not Christianity?
My point still stands, and I know that I am biased against religion, but I'm equally biased against Islam and Christianity, of which TWI is a sect whether you like it or not. To me being Christian is still just a lesser degree of "waybrain." Feel free to disagree, but that doesn't invalidate my opinions.
Actually, we are a republic. Can we truly give what we aren't?
Yes, we are a representative republic. However, that is not to the exclusion of being a democracy. We have a mix really, because we don't directly vote for a president, but we do vote for other officials. We don't directly vote on most initiatives, but some get on the ballot. Even then, the point is that we live in a society where the ruling class is supposed to be the common man, rather than theocratic royal families.
quote:Originally posted by cc ray:
Teaching peace and freedom in radical Islamic countries - is like teaching Klingons(sp?) to behave like Vulcans.
I disagree, because Klingons and Vulcans are different races. Arabs and anyone from the U.S. belong to the same species and race, so theoretically the people in extremist Islamic nations could have a culture just like our own if they choose to. The problem is not the matter of whether or not they are capable, but that the conditions are not right for freedom in their nations.
quote:Other than the whole Jesus = God vs. Jesus = Prophet thing, what is the difference between Islam and Christianity? From my perspective there are no real differences other than language.
I'm not up on everything about Islam, but I think the difference with Christianity and Islam (and all other religions) is, we have Jesus Christ, who laid down his life as payment for the sins of the world. The same Jesus was crucified, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. To my knowledge, no other existing religion compares with the sacrifice of Christ, which makes the new birth possible. All other religions, to my knowledge, are based on your own personal good works to attain salvation, if it's available at all. Christianity is based on the finished work of Christ, and the grace of God.
In sum ... with Christianity, Christ is your saviour. With other religions, you are your own saviour.
I just don't believe it's possible for radical Islamics to ever live in peace with anyone else (or sometimes themselves).
I wasn't specific in my last post about it, but I should clarify I think. In order for them to live in peace with anyone, they would have to drop the radicalism. There are plenty of good muslims out there just like there are plenty of good Christians, but I do think that the fundamentalist element is what the problem is. If they were to change their religion from an outward thing that they force on others to an internal thing that is their own belief system, then they would no longer be radicals and thus be able to live in peace.
Also, I do believe any person can make up their mind to become peaceful, but there are things like probabilities to deal with. Also, if someone like Usama bin Laden were to suddenly embrace the west and convert to Christianity, I don't think that should get him a free pass for anything. People are still responsible for their past actions.
My underlying problem with islam is spiritual. To the jews God gave the prophecy that the messiah would be the son of God. When Christ was here He said "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." In the Epistles we're told "he who has the son has life and he who doesn't is s.o.l." ( or something like that) Then 400 years later the koran says "God forbid that he (God) should have a son" and this is from the same God ? I don't think so !
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Mister P-Mosh
Other than the whole Jesus = God vs. Jesus = Prophet thing, what is the difference between Islam and Christianity? From my perspective there are no real differences other than language.
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ckeer
Pmosh- I think the difference is that in the middle east it isn't Just a religion- It is a theocracy it is the religion and the government and the legal system all in one. Like OT hebrew culture- to change the political system is a direct attack on the religion.
The fact that the religion and political and financial all are controled by a few who can hide their personal interests behind religion just makes it worse.
As a note I think that Modern Israel is a Parlimentary democracy because it was founded primarily by european Jews- They had a european understanding of and comfort with that form of government that middle easterners of either hebrew or islam would not have.
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imbus
Oilmedic,
Huuummmm! Ckeer, Good observation. Food for thought.
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oilfieldmedic
ckeer...very well said!
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Al Poole
That's because from your perspective you see only that which supports the postion you have taken. You see only what you choose to see.
Kinda like twi brain.
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ckeer
I’m Glad you liked it. Let me add a couple of more points that may illuminate the situation in Iraq and the Islamic world as I see it
The Islamic empire spread rapidly from what is now Saudi Arabia in all directions thru the middle and Far East and northern Africa. Over time It splintered because of its size and human nature. The smaller splinters were conquered by larger stronger ones until there were two Moslem empires, One based in Egypt and one based in Turkey (The Ottoman Empire) The Egyptian empire was conquered by Napoleon in the 1800’s and then absorbed by Britain when they defeated him In world war one The Ottoman empire sided with the Austro Hungarian Empire (Germany) against France, England, and the US.
“Democracy vs. Divine Right to Rule” The ottomans lost and England took control of their Empire.
That’s a quick crude sketch but here is what I think it has left in the regions like Iraq.
They were once part of a great empire that decayed and was conquered- They were under British colonial influence for less than 50-100 years or not even one life time. Egypt and Palestine and India/Pakistan were under colonial rule for 100-200 years at least two if not three generations and this is probably how long it takes for the concepts of self government to take root.
One last point- all types governments are actually a form of Oligarchy- which is rule by a privileged few- even the good old USA (both leading candidates are definitely from that group – their only difference is what part of the voter base will vote for them- either way born and breed Oligarchs are in power). “Democracy” is not really what is needed to actually achieve the ideal of our goals in Iraq. The actual keys to individual prosperity and freedom for the “common people”- Those outside the oligarchy are these: First A legal system that provides equal protection for all. Second a stable monetary system and third free market capitalism. Through out recorded history empires have risen thru conquest and stayed healthy as long as and to the degree that that these three ideals were achieved and maintained. When these three were at their height in the Moslem empires they were at their Peak- During the Middle ages in Europe! Persia, Egypt, The OT Hebrews, Rome, England, China, Japan are other examples. The form of government is immaterial in my humble opinion.
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def59
Democracy plays to the masses of the West. I think we are trying to make sure Iraq will be de-stablized for years, much the same way Germany was after WWII.
Make them divided and impotent and they will cease to be warlike.
A stable Iraq has invaded Israel, Kuwait and Iran and killed millions.
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Mister P-Mosh
That's a very good point, and one that it seems like the leaders of some countries like Saudi Arabia or the Taliban used to keep themselves in power.
That's a good point, and I don't really see any solution for that which we can help the middle east with. It seems like they need revolution from within to reject the chains of religion and become free. Unfortunately, that would not be in the financial best interests of the U.S. so it would probably be shut down like Iran was.
Good point. It seems to be that the best way to have a successful democracy is for the citizenry to step up to the plate and do something about it. I don't think what we have done in Iraq will lay the groundwork for a strong democratic nation. However, I don't really know what we can do to encourage it.
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Mister P-Mosh
And you are a master of Islamic doctrine, who has an unbiased view of religions that are not Christianity?
My point still stands, and I know that I am biased against religion, but I'm equally biased against Islam and Christianity, of which TWI is a sect whether you like it or not. To me being Christian is still just a lesser degree of "waybrain." Feel free to disagree, but that doesn't invalidate my opinions.
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cc ray
Actually, we are a republic. Can we truly give what we aren't?
Teaching peace and freedom in radical Islamic countries - is like teaching Klingons(sp?) to behave like Vulcans.
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Mister P-Mosh
Yes, we are a representative republic. However, that is not to the exclusion of being a democracy. We have a mix really, because we don't directly vote for a president, but we do vote for other officials. We don't directly vote on most initiatives, but some get on the ballot. Even then, the point is that we live in a society where the ruling class is supposed to be the common man, rather than theocratic royal families.
I disagree, because Klingons and Vulcans are different races. Arabs and anyone from the U.S. belong to the same species and race, so theoretically the people in extremist Islamic nations could have a culture just like our own if they choose to. The problem is not the matter of whether or not they are capable, but that the conditions are not right for freedom in their nations.
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oldiesman
I'm not up on everything about Islam, but I think the difference with Christianity and Islam (and all other religions) is, we have Jesus Christ, who laid down his life as payment for the sins of the world. The same Jesus was crucified, rose from the dead, and ascended into heaven. To my knowledge, no other existing religion compares with the sacrifice of Christ, which makes the new birth possible. All other religions, to my knowledge, are based on your own personal good works to attain salvation, if it's available at all. Christianity is based on the finished work of Christ, and the grace of God.
In sum ... with Christianity, Christ is your saviour. With other religions, you are your own saviour.
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cc ray
like - a comparison, not exactly the same
vulacns and klingons - humanoid
possibly a difference like dalmation vs golden retriever.
I just don't believe it's possible for radical Islamics to ever live in peace with anyone else (or sometimes themselves).
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Mister P-Mosh
I wasn't specific in my last post about it, but I should clarify I think. In order for them to live in peace with anyone, they would have to drop the radicalism. There are plenty of good muslims out there just like there are plenty of good Christians, but I do think that the fundamentalist element is what the problem is. If they were to change their religion from an outward thing that they force on others to an internal thing that is their own belief system, then they would no longer be radicals and thus be able to live in peace.
Also, I do believe any person can make up their mind to become peaceful, but there are things like probabilities to deal with. Also, if someone like Usama bin Laden were to suddenly embrace the west and convert to Christianity, I don't think that should get him a free pass for anything. People are still responsible for their past actions.
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TOMMYZ
My underlying problem with islam is spiritual. To the jews God gave the prophecy that the messiah would be the son of God. When Christ was here He said "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased." In the Epistles we're told "he who has the son has life and he who doesn't is s.o.l." ( or something like that) Then 400 years later the koran says "God forbid that he (God) should have a son" and this is from the same God ? I don't think so !
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