quote: both sites scare me..... GS for the christian fundamentalist attitude and JW for the extreme cynicism.
I don't see GS as being very "fundamentalist". If you want to see "fundamentalist", drop by "Bible Discussions" on aol. Certainly some of us here (myself included), lean that way, yet I also see the cynicism here as well. I haven't yet checked out the other site, so I can't speak to that.
For what it is worth, I feel many times that I do not fit in either - be it music, work, politics, "religion", social views, etc.
The one that "bothers" me the most, is the music scene. The bluegrass crowd disdain old-timey music, and the old-timey music crowd disdain bluegrass. I happen to like both, yet trying to reconcile one music style to another (to either of these two "camps"), is like trying to get blood out of a turnip. Worse than trying to get a Baptist to forget water. -->
But I still go and pick with both groups.
What they "think" is immaterial to me. What they "pick" is the more important thing. I won't let the bluegrass crowd ruin my love for old timey music, anymore than I would allow the old timey folks ruin my love for bluegrass music.
Two distinct styles -- and I am caught in the middle of them. I don't fit in completely with either one, but that is ok. I never did, and am used to it. I take all the good I can from each side of the equation, and leave the rest behind.
Oh, and about fitting in. I don't feel I do either, not at all.
I'm not "anti" enough for the vehemently anti-twi people. I'm not pro-twi or pro "mastering PFAL," so I'm out of step with that faction.
I'm a Christian, but I'm way out of step with many beliefs of the more fundie Christians among us.
I like neither the extremely liberal or extremely conservative political points of view, so I'm sure I tick people off from both sides of the political discussions (but more likely the conservatives...I've noticed they're easier to annoy...:)-->).
What can I say? I'm a misfit. It only bothers me occasionally. It means, I believe, that I'm an independent cuss with a mind of my own.
Excathedra...*people flipped* yes they did, I remember...but you courageously stood your ground....
Damn it...though some flipped...for so many of us...it was the beginning of the scales of worship of wierwille and idolatry of his dogma began to loosen from our eyes.
If it had not been for your bravery...for valerie...dot.... bow...all of you sharing the ugly side of twi....in spite of the screams of protest...the wails of denial...many of us became free to think again...
Do you guys have any idea of the impact your testimonies has achieved?
My self...my husband...are no longer enslaved by an unhealthy mindset...attempting to live an impossible standard...our children are no longer subjected to stifeling child rearing practices...our whole family...all 9 of us were freed to enjoy the guidance and love of a present God....one who up to that point we had been fiercely shutting out with every fiber of our *renewed* minds....
We no longer owed this scum bag and his stolen dogma our unswerving loyalty..... it was the beginning of freedom to examine unhealthy doctrine and dangerous practice.....
I can only thank you all for your courage ... and hope that all of you who have shared your story, only to endure the indignity and humiliation of people`s doubt of your veracity....and sincerely hope that someday, someway you may all understand the debt of gratitude that many of us feel.
Excathedra do stick around cause I for one love your humor and you dam I laugh so hard at some of your comments. :D-->You are a riot and you liven these threads up. Your heart too shines genuine ! Yeah the internet can be scary I agree but hey you are among some ex cult people who care about ya ! :)-->
Who or what is it that says anyone has to 'fit in' anywhere? Surely all a person can do is be themself, after that, as I see it, its just addaption to circumstances.
'Fitting in' surely means some kind of change in oneself to become one with the prevailing conditions/attitude of a certain group, this, IMO, is being untrue to ones own nature, also maybe, in certain circumstances, dishonest, as in one might be tempted to pretend to be something that one is not.
This is how I have always seen 'fitting in' and I ask myself, if the person asking me to fit in is SO convinced that fitting in is the right thing to do, then whose mould is everyone expected to fit in to?
GS...or any ex-Way site...or any ex-anything site...or for that matter any message board (like the fan club board I have participated in) are cyber meeting places.
Therefore we know only cyber people. It is hard to trust cyber people, especially anonymous cyber people, and therefore it is not always easy to believe them. In my years at Waydale and GS we have had a few ugly incidents of deception...incidents that have cost some of the people involved a lot.
If the matter is small and doesnt affect us or upset us, we may choose to believe them, on the basis that if we are wrong it doesnt cost us anything.
But when the matter is serious, and changes a lot, or makes us change drastically the way we think, testimony from anonymous cyber people doesnt quite do it. Much less second hand descriptions of something that supposedly happened to some other anonymous entry.
That may have something to do with someone's account not being believed; with someone flipping out on you.
There my be; I believe there are excellent reasons for remaining anonymous. Even I do it superficially, publicly, although in almost all private communications I tell all. However, that does not solve the believability problem, as understandable as the reasons are.
So, if someone has trouble with people not automatically accepting their account, that person may have to make a choice or excercise some trust to obtain more believability. And that trust may be hard to give, in view of what that person had experienced, and in view of the reasons I gave above.
Fitting in is a very common social pressure. Cults take it to a more intense and damaging level. It is a hard thing to snap out of. Of course, there aren't too many things that you can fix in a snap anyways.
The same way a parent that is never pleased with the efforts of thier child....it affects them for the rest of that child's life many times.
Don't worry Ex. It anyone fits around here, it is you...can't ever acuse you of not being yourself. ;)-->
When some GSCafe posters first logged onto the Jehovahs Witness Online site there were some howls of derision and screeches of abuse designed to offend. Posters saying ‘welcome to Tombstone’, and ‘We worship Satan here’ etc. Just to shock.
But so fas as I imagine, that is just Ex Dubs reacting to “outies” invading their site.
Im hoping that pretty soon such behaviour will subside and the Ex Dubs there will think “hang on, heres someone new” and recognize the chance for meaningful dialogue, and settle down.
quote:When some GSCafe posters first logged onto the Jehovahs Witness Online site there were some howls of derision and screeches of abuse designed to offend. Posters saying ‘welcome to Tombstone’, and ‘We worship Satan here’ etc. Just to shock.
I think it's important to note that an ex-JW and an ex-TWI will probably have vast CULTural differences. I've had the opportunity to spend some time with JW's lately and from my limited observation, I couldn't find too much in common. In this case, the JW religion had spanned many generations deep and many families wide, including family member clergy. Breaking away from such an all-encompassing social structure must be incredably hard
TWI, on the other hand usually involved a single generation of youth following something that their family didn't understand or care about.
Another curious difference is that TWI-1 enjoyed celebrating, almost to the extreme. JW's, as far as I can see, don't celebrate anything except possibly Easter.
There are other CULTural issues that I've noted and I'd be glad to start a dialog, Refiner.
I was one of those who had JWs in their family for 3 generations. My sister and I were brought up as JWs, and I am still regarded as the black sheep of the family for leaving.
If you don't mind me asking, how old were you when you left? By being the black sheep, does that mean that you're shunned by them or does it mean that they don't treat you as affectionately as JW members?
Correct me if I'm wrong. I get the feeling that there's a real deep "undertow" that exists with the JW's where if you're not on the inside, you're not part of the family and you're not priviliged to hear or know much of the inside dealings and gossup that goes on.
If a person is not a JW then the JW's have only two ways of looking at them.
They are either potential converts, or they are 'birdfood'.
'birdfood' is an 'in' reference to where it says in the bible that at Armaggeddon, all except gods people will be killed and the birds will eat the dead (paraphrased), and the JW's believe that only THEY are gods people, spiritual Isreal.
A JW who leaves 'Gods Visible Organisation' (JW's name for their org) will be treated as 'dead' by all JW's friends, and family alike.
It is (along with the fear of dying at Armageddon which the JW's believe is soon) one of the things that prevent people from leaving the organisation.
Many have actually commited suicide because of JW shunning practices.
You've probably heard references to TWI-1 and TWI-2. TWI-1 spanned from the very early 70's to the early 80's and I'd characterize it's attitude towards other religious organizations as condescending tolerance. Both mainstream Protestant and Catholic were derided as sold-out and not faithful to the scriptures, but at the same time there was acceptance of the fact that there might be born-again believers within the organizations and that there was no profit in openly antaganizing them.
TWI-2 (and I'm speaking secondhand here as I got out during the transition) took on a much stronger JW-like attitude of "we're the household of God and nobody else is worthy to breath our air". Songs stating that "The Trinity is Idolatry" and that I'll "Wash My Feet in the Blood of the Wicked" give you some feel for the change of attitude.
So we can relate to some of the things that you folks have been through.
I think that you and Oz Girl give us all an interesting perspective. Please stick around.
If you don't mind me asking, how old were you when you left? By being the black sheep, does that mean that you're shunned by them or does it mean that they don't treat you as affectionately as JW members?
Correct me if I'm wrong. I get the feeling that there's a real deep "undertow" that exists with the JW's where if you're not on the inside, you're not part of the family and you're not priviliged to hear or know much of the inside dealings and gossup that goes on.
Certainly such stuff went on with TWI.
In the JWs, there's no way of leaving honorably. There are 3 ways to go:
Disfellowship - where you have committed some sin or wrongdoing, and thus are expelled by the congregation. If you are disfellowshipped, other JWs will/can not talk to you. This includes family, although family members are allowed to speak to them if absolutely necessary.
Disassociate - you voluntarily leave by writing a letter, stating that you no longer wish to be a Jehovahs Witness. You will be treated the same as a disfellowshipped person.
Fade - This takes time, often called the "slow fade" where you gradually miss more and more meetings, and become slacker in the field ministry, until you stop going altogether. It's a way of leaving without causing a commotion or having to explain why you've suddenly stopped. Thus, because you aren't technically df'd or da'd, you can still talk to friends and family. Some will move to a different suburb/town in order to get away from the local elders' radar.
When I left the JWs, I took the last option, the slow fade. I still have close family members who are JWs, and although they still talk to me, their perception of me has lessened considerably. I'm now a "worldly person", because I have left "God's organisation" in favour to "become part of the world". When in reality, all I've done is stop going to meetings and witnessing (field service) and now live just like any other normal person.
Now that I have left, my family won't discuss JW matters with me. It's for the best anyway, because when I have tried to discuss the real reasons why I have left (JW doctrines), they get upset, taking any criticism of their beliefs, personally.
I was 29 when I started to fade away. I hadn't even been on the internet or knew anything about JW history, but had felt for a long time that there was something wrong, but could never put my finger on it. I could tell the JW organisation was ignoring many of Jesus' commands (such as making up unBiblical "rules") yet felt it was still God's organisation. I wanted to leave, yet didnn't know why.
So I gradually faded, missing meetings and stopped going witnessing completely. I used the excuse of working long hours (which was true) as well as "illness" (the elders shy away once you mention illness, especially if you are a female ;)-->).
Then I found the internet!!!! I read Ray Franz's book, "Crisis of Conscience" and never looked back.
This all happened in the space of a year. So by the time I was 30, I was out of the JW organisation. I'm now 34, going on 35, so it's been a remarkable 5 years in my journey out of "the Truth".
Recommended Posts
Linda Z
Exsie, you fit perfectly right where you are, by simply being yourself. Who says we gotta fit anywhere?
Love you,
Linda
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excathedra
i love you too linzee
sometimes i feel like i have no friends when it doesn't come to the word
thanks, friend
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dmiller
I don't see GS as being very "fundamentalist". If you want to see "fundamentalist", drop by "Bible Discussions" on aol. Certainly some of us here (myself included), lean that way, yet I also see the cynicism here as well. I haven't yet checked out the other site, so I can't speak to that.
For what it is worth, I feel many times that I do not fit in either - be it music, work, politics, "religion", social views, etc.
The one that "bothers" me the most, is the music scene. The bluegrass crowd disdain old-timey music, and the old-timey music crowd disdain bluegrass. I happen to like both, yet trying to reconcile one music style to another (to either of these two "camps"), is like trying to get blood out of a turnip. Worse than trying to get a Baptist to forget water.
-->
But I still go and pick with both groups.
What they "think" is immaterial to me. What they "pick" is the more important thing. I won't let the bluegrass crowd ruin my love for old timey music, anymore than I would allow the old timey folks ruin my love for bluegrass music.
Two distinct styles -- and I am caught in the middle of them. I don't fit in completely with either one, but that is ok. I never did, and am used to it. I take all the good I can from each side of the equation, and leave the rest behind.
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year2027
God first
Hi all
Will I post in both sites and others
here are the places I post
http://p197.ezboard.com/bchristiancounterpoint
http://p081.ezboard.com/ftwcsfrm34
http://archive2.ezboard.com/fexcesfollowerstheholyspirit
http://timebombers.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
http://pub205.ezboard.com/bcreativesharers
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showforum=7
http://www.towerwatch.com/forum/
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/default.ashx
And I used to post in a Bapist reform board but I was too reform for thoes belivers
Were do I fix all and none
Because if there is a noral kind of person that is not me
with love Roy
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valerie52
Keep posting Excathedra,
I always want to read you stuff...
Shalom,
Valerie in Las Vegas
PS: I don't "fit in" anywhere either....
But I will fit in nicely on the new heaven and earth that I will inherit, with Yashua
:D-->
I didn't start telling people what VPW TRIED to do to me untill very recently!!!
I KNEW that now one would believe me so I kept silent untill I saw that there were girls that were nuts from being his sex slave.....
:(-->
And the folks that don't belive me, and want to blame it on me because I was a good looking blond bla bla bla I must have "wanted it".
yea, right.
HMmmmmmm what I did want was to cut his dick off....
Oh well, they will find out the hard way.... It is alway the self righteous ones that get kicked in the *** from behind....
-->
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Linda Z
Oh, and about fitting in. I don't feel I do either, not at all.
I'm not "anti" enough for the vehemently anti-twi people. I'm not pro-twi or pro "mastering PFAL," so I'm out of step with that faction.
I'm a Christian, but I'm way out of step with many beliefs of the more fundie Christians among us.
I like neither the extremely liberal or extremely conservative political points of view, so I'm sure I tick people off from both sides of the political discussions (but more likely the conservatives...I've noticed they're easier to annoy...
:)-->).
What can I say? I'm a misfit. It only bothers me occasionally. It means, I believe, that I'm an independent cuss with a mind of my own.
What can I say? I gotta be meeeeee!
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rascal
Excathedra...*people flipped* yes they did, I remember...but you courageously stood your ground....
Damn it...though some flipped...for so many of us...it was the beginning of the scales of worship of wierwille and idolatry of his dogma began to loosen from our eyes.
If it had not been for your bravery...for valerie...dot.... bow...all of you sharing the ugly side of twi....in spite of the screams of protest...the wails of denial...many of us became free to think again...
Do you guys have any idea of the impact your testimonies has achieved?
My self...my husband...are no longer enslaved by an unhealthy mindset...attempting to live an impossible standard...our children are no longer subjected to stifeling child rearing practices...our whole family...all 9 of us were freed to enjoy the guidance and love of a present God....one who up to that point we had been fiercely shutting out with every fiber of our *renewed* minds....
We no longer owed this scum bag and his stolen dogma our unswerving loyalty..... it was the beginning of freedom to examine unhealthy doctrine and dangerous practice.....
I can only thank you all for your courage ... and hope that all of you who have shared your story, only to endure the indignity and humiliation of people`s doubt of your veracity....and sincerely hope that someday, someway you may all understand the debt of gratitude that many of us feel.
Thankyou, Cathy
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dougie73
Excathedra do stick around cause I for one love your humor and you dam I laugh so hard at some of your comments.
:D-->You are a riot and you liven these threads up. Your heart too shines genuine ! Yeah the internet can be scary I agree but hey you are among some ex cult people who care about ya ! 
:)-->
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searcher
I dont understand.
Who or what is it that says anyone has to 'fit in' anywhere? Surely all a person can do is be themself, after that, as I see it, its just addaption to circumstances.
'Fitting in' surely means some kind of change in oneself to become one with the prevailing conditions/attitude of a certain group, this, IMO, is being untrue to ones own nature, also maybe, in certain circumstances, dishonest, as in one might be tempted to pretend to be something that one is not.
This is how I have always seen 'fitting in' and I ask myself, if the person asking me to fit in is SO convinced that fitting in is the right thing to do, then whose mould is everyone expected to fit in to?
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Lifted Up
GS...or any ex-Way site...or any ex-anything site...or for that matter any message board (like the fan club board I have participated in) are cyber meeting places.
Therefore we know only cyber people. It is hard to trust cyber people, especially anonymous cyber people, and therefore it is not always easy to believe them. In my years at Waydale and GS we have had a few ugly incidents of deception...incidents that have cost some of the people involved a lot.
If the matter is small and doesnt affect us or upset us, we may choose to believe them, on the basis that if we are wrong it doesnt cost us anything.
But when the matter is serious, and changes a lot, or makes us change drastically the way we think, testimony from anonymous cyber people doesnt quite do it. Much less second hand descriptions of something that supposedly happened to some other anonymous entry.
That may have something to do with someone's account not being believed; with someone flipping out on you.
There my be; I believe there are excellent reasons for remaining anonymous. Even I do it superficially, publicly, although in almost all private communications I tell all. However, that does not solve the believability problem, as understandable as the reasons are.
So, if someone has trouble with people not automatically accepting their account, that person may have to make a choice or excercise some trust to obtain more believability. And that trust may be hard to give, in view of what that person had experienced, and in view of the reasons I gave above.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
i've been wanting to say that for a long time Lifted Up...
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excathedra
thank you all a lot
welcome searcher
i know.... my wanting to "fit in" is something i need to grow up and out of
thanks again
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lindyhopper
Fitting in is a very common social pressure. Cults take it to a more intense and damaging level. It is a hard thing to snap out of. Of course, there aren't too many things that you can fix in a snap anyways.
The same way a parent that is never pleased with the efforts of thier child....it affects them for the rest of that child's life many times.
Don't worry Ex. It anyone fits around here, it is you...can't ever acuse you of not being yourself.
;)-->
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Jim
Sometimes I can't get a word in when it comes to my friends...
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excathedra
(((((jim)))))
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Refiner
When some GSCafe posters first logged onto the Jehovahs Witness Online site there were some howls of derision and screeches of abuse designed to offend. Posters saying ‘welcome to Tombstone’, and ‘We worship Satan here’ etc. Just to shock.
But so fas as I imagine, that is just Ex Dubs reacting to “outies” invading their site.
Im hoping that pretty soon such behaviour will subside and the Ex Dubs there will think “hang on, heres someone new” and recognize the chance for meaningful dialogue, and settle down.
I predict that they will.
If they don’t I’ll be very disappointed.
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Jim
I think it's important to note that an ex-JW and an ex-TWI will probably have vast CULTural differences. I've had the opportunity to spend some time with JW's lately and from my limited observation, I couldn't find too much in common. In this case, the JW religion had spanned many generations deep and many families wide, including family member clergy. Breaking away from such an all-encompassing social structure must be incredably hard
TWI, on the other hand usually involved a single generation of youth following something that their family didn't understand or care about.
Another curious difference is that TWI-1 enjoyed celebrating, almost to the extreme. JW's, as far as I can see, don't celebrate anything except possibly Easter.
There are other CULTural issues that I've noted and I'd be glad to start a dialog, Refiner.
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The Girl From Oz
Jim,
I was one of those who had JWs in their family for 3 generations. My sister and I were brought up as JWs, and I am still regarded as the black sheep of the family for leaving.
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Jim
If you don't mind me asking, how old were you when you left? By being the black sheep, does that mean that you're shunned by them or does it mean that they don't treat you as affectionately as JW members?
Correct me if I'm wrong. I get the feeling that there's a real deep "undertow" that exists with the JW's where if you're not on the inside, you're not part of the family and you're not priviliged to hear or know much of the inside dealings and gossup that goes on.
Certainly such stuff went on with TWI.
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searcher
Jim,
If a person is not a JW then the JW's have only two ways of looking at them.
They are either potential converts, or they are 'birdfood'.
'birdfood' is an 'in' reference to where it says in the bible that at Armaggeddon, all except gods people will be killed and the birds will eat the dead (paraphrased), and the JW's believe that only THEY are gods people, spiritual Isreal.
A JW who leaves 'Gods Visible Organisation' (JW's name for their org) will be treated as 'dead' by all JW's friends, and family alike.
It is (along with the fear of dying at Armageddon which the JW's believe is soon) one of the things that prevent people from leaving the organisation.
Many have actually commited suicide because of JW shunning practices.
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TheInvisibleDan
This form of JW ostracization rings remarkably like the Way's policy of "Mark and Avoid".
I leave it to other, more recent ex-ways to fill you in ( I left prior to the intensification of this M&A thing).
Danny
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Jim
Refiner,
You've probably heard references to TWI-1 and TWI-2. TWI-1 spanned from the very early 70's to the early 80's and I'd characterize it's attitude towards other religious organizations as condescending tolerance. Both mainstream Protestant and Catholic were derided as sold-out and not faithful to the scriptures, but at the same time there was acceptance of the fact that there might be born-again believers within the organizations and that there was no profit in openly antaganizing them.
TWI-2 (and I'm speaking secondhand here as I got out during the transition) took on a much stronger JW-like attitude of "we're the household of God and nobody else is worthy to breath our air". Songs stating that "The Trinity is Idolatry" and that I'll "Wash My Feet in the Blood of the Wicked" give you some feel for the change of attitude.
So we can relate to some of the things that you folks have been through.
I think that you and Oz Girl give us all an interesting perspective. Please stick around.
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The Girl From Oz
In the JWs, there's no way of leaving honorably. There are 3 ways to go:
Disfellowship - where you have committed some sin or wrongdoing, and thus are expelled by the congregation. If you are disfellowshipped, other JWs will/can not talk to you. This includes family, although family members are allowed to speak to them if absolutely necessary.
Disassociate - you voluntarily leave by writing a letter, stating that you no longer wish to be a Jehovahs Witness. You will be treated the same as a disfellowshipped person.
Fade - This takes time, often called the "slow fade" where you gradually miss more and more meetings, and become slacker in the field ministry, until you stop going altogether. It's a way of leaving without causing a commotion or having to explain why you've suddenly stopped. Thus, because you aren't technically df'd or da'd, you can still talk to friends and family. Some will move to a different suburb/town in order to get away from the local elders' radar.
When I left the JWs, I took the last option, the slow fade. I still have close family members who are JWs, and although they still talk to me, their perception of me has lessened considerably. I'm now a "worldly person", because I have left "God's organisation" in favour to "become part of the world". When in reality, all I've done is stop going to meetings and witnessing (field service) and now live just like any other normal person.
Now that I have left, my family won't discuss JW matters with me. It's for the best anyway, because when I have tried to discuss the real reasons why I have left (JW doctrines), they get upset, taking any criticism of their beliefs, personally.
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The Girl From Oz
Sorry, forgot to mention...
I was 29 when I started to fade away. I hadn't even been on the internet or knew anything about JW history, but had felt for a long time that there was something wrong, but could never put my finger on it. I could tell the JW organisation was ignoring many of Jesus' commands (such as making up unBiblical "rules") yet felt it was still God's organisation. I wanted to leave, yet didnn't know why.
So I gradually faded, missing meetings and stopped going witnessing completely. I used the excuse of working long hours (which was true) as well as "illness" (the elders shy away once you mention illness, especially if you are a female
;)-->).
Then I found the internet!!!!
I read Ray Franz's book, "Crisis of Conscience" and never looked back.
This all happened in the space of a year. So by the time I was 30, I was out of the JW organisation. I'm now 34, going on 35, so it's been a remarkable 5 years in my journey out of "the Truth".
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