The 2 ministry theory certainly answers many of my questions about the TWI dichotomy we all lived. Thank you Dot for helping me understand this whole mess I was a part of for almost 20 yrs. What relief it is to finally put some of this together.
And I loved that line...I knew in my heart (which I no longer trusted). Sheeshh isn't that the truth!
You know, when I acted upon my heart in TWI, I usually found myself in more doo-doo from leadership than I care to think about. Then, when I did not, I ended up in more doo-doo from leadership than I care to think about. What an insane asylum that place was ~ -->
A little derailment here ...
I remember one corps night an incident was brought up where a certain leader had a business and he had pretty much used the believers in his area to make money, to help the business grow and then left them for dust. He pretty much took the money and ran. Many people including families were left in the lurch with nothing to show for all their effort and hard work. I believe this was done over quite a period of time, therefore there was alot of financial damage done.
On this particular corps night, LCM went on and on and on about the area corps who did not 'Speak Up'. When he said he asked why they hadn't (because these corps knew full well that these people were being used) the corps said..."They were too afraid to speak up." Exactly!!! I wonder who they were afraid of!
And here's the kicker, LCM said he knew this guy was rotten when he met him at the leaders meetings and on the field, yet he COULDN'T do anything because he didn't know enough details to put the guy in his place. So he HAD to allow it to go on, but that the corps should have spoken up.
At the end of the evening it certainly seemed to me that he railed on those corps even more than the guy who did the damage. And sometimes I wonder if the story wasn't just fabricated or at least exaggerated to just keep the listeners in more control. I know for myself that I certainly would never be the one to speak up...too much to risk...to be at the receiving end of LCM's wrath would do me in for sure! I knew after that, I would certainly NO LONGER TRUST MY TRUE HEART.
What a twisting of the mind! --> --> -->
OK, please do not let me derail any longer ... you may now return to the regularly scheduled program.
ps...I was wondering if there was somehow I could get this thread on the About The Way forum. I meant to post it there, but somehow I ended up here. Duh! -->
Ala - it was the most delivering thing for me -- and it was realized when The Evan and others shared how the charaters "Maggie Muggins" and the others were actually FIRST names in Leonard's class!
But VPW perverted the "believing = receiving" thing to make God a "formula" -- A vending machine God....
I should probably put this in a PT but you were so public with your pain that I will be honest and public in my post to you...
My dearest Rascal
This is not the first time you have mentioned your torment. I recall at least one other time if not two.
So, I am not going to try and alleviate your guilt as I do not know why you are really so personally tormented.
I assume you ALWAYS witnessed because of your love for God. But perhaps there is a person or two you did get involved because LEADERSHIP pushed you to “get a class together” or something.
So, all I can say is if on a couple of occasions you KNEW it was a creepy ministry and you witnessed out of obedience and fear -- God still loves you. If your heart is so heavy over this that it appears you cannot breath without pain…
Then apologize. Find those people and apologize. If you do not know where they are perhaps write it in “my story” so if they show up here they can read your apology.
There was one person I KNOW I hurt in TWI. A man I witnessed to and later married. At the point I married him I knew TWI was a piece of crap. But I was still on the merry-go-around of confusion trying to separate the good from the bad but unable to get a handle on it because I did not know the class was “stolen” at the time.
So, I let my circular thinking entrap him and me. I kept thinking how could a class that delivered me come from a man (VPW) who was in such bondage of “selfishness, narcissism and sexual perversion?"
I mean, he is teaching the class – why didn’t he get delivered and I did? So, even though I found my own heart to be untrustworthy as I felt the evil around me the closer I got to VPW and those sold out to his “doctrines” (which were opposite of the things I was taught early on in TWI -- the real Leonard ministry) I kept trying to get things back to the way they were. I did not know at the time they were NEVER that way for VPW (as he was (IMO) a satanic, lying, using, pervert looking for power at the expense of others). So VPW would never be brought back to the way I first experienced them because he was NEVER part of Leonard’s ministry. He was a thief who came to steal, kill and destroy.
But while in the center of confusion, knowing I was seeing evil, I married a really nice man I had gotten in the word. He became corps spouse, and then the wolves dissected him and ate his flesh to the bones. For that, I do feel I am responsible. We divorced about 17 years ago. I have written to him to apologize for not telling him what I did know and what I did see… I HAD only told him of the wonderful things I originally experienced and how wonderful God was. – The effects of what I now know to be “the Leonard” ministry. Before he became my husband and committed to "corps" spouse statis I had an obligation to tell him that VPW had hit on me, the cover-ups, the perversion in the leaders I had seen... But I did not...
I was an azz myself, at that time with him, and it did and does eat at me...
I have never had a reply. I still pray for him and I am tormented by allowing my cloud of confusion rest on his head without trying to explain it. But at the time I could not suffiecntly understand it myself.
So, if you have a few tormented people who, as a result of your witnessing after you knew TWI was crazy – then follow your heart. Ask God to forgive you, he will. Then ask the person to forgive you. He may or may not but at least your apology is out there and your heart can move forward.
As far as the original question it is on a long list of
Why God why? Questions we all have.
The woman whose son died and Elijah went to see. Why give me a son just to take him away?
A man (my husband worked with) had to bury his 9-year-old son who dies from cancer --- Why? Why bring me this child to take him away?
I was having car trouble and my father drove his car out to California to give me. WHAT A NICE GESTURE! Only, weeks later I was hit head on to have it totaled – why God why?
Why when I sought you did it feel so good to be “found” then later to realize the “group” was a damaged soul-robbing group? Why God? Why?
Why God would you invent the “world” knowing Lucifer is was going to steer life away into pain and injury?
Why did you invent Lucufer? Why not just skip him?
I do not know. We can all seek a truth in life. Maybe if my Dad did not bring out his car I would have died in the smaller sports car I was having trouble with….
Maybe….
Maybe….
As we find “our truth” some have concluded that life is capricious and there is no God.
Others, feel all things are some how “a blessing in disguise.”
Others have held onto TWI being through and thoroughly from God (TWI 1, 2 and 3) because they cannot handle the alternative
Others still ponder in pain
Some pick through it because they have to see the trick as they are terrified to be tricked again
Others left and never look back – almost pretending it did not exist for them
Those who enjoyed making others miserable have a whole other truth to find… why did they enjoy the EVIL ministry and try to destroy the “good” one?
Perhaps we only see as through a glass darkly.
I am one who has to pick at it until I figure out what makes sense to me. The only thing that seems reasonable to me is that we were in two ministries at one time. A good one and a bad.
And that God does look at the heart and intent thereof.
I hope you find away to let go of your pain...
Apologizing maybe germane to that healing for you or for the person(s) you may have felt you hurt. Maybe the reason it stirs you, is not because you are guilty of anything, but someone out there needs to "hear" what happened. How it all turned out so badly.
Thanks for your perspective and for making the TWO WAY MINISTRIES now so clear.
So, the "something more" we thought we were seeing--thinking the closer one got to vp, the closer one would be to God--was really just what it appeared to be on the surface--secrecy, not spirituality. So the "higher" one climbed, the lower one actually GOT.
I had trouble sleeping two nights ago after reading your story on the other site because of the injustice of the whole thing. I was so angry that I couldn't think of any comforting words to say to you. I just hurt for you.
I know you've thought about this before and probably decided not to do it, but it is my understanding that the statue of limitations do not run out on a rape case.
The reason I bring this up is because a 50 something year old woman who lived in my hometown for a while is now pressing charges against her father. He was a Methodist minister and forced himself on her twice when she was a teenager and she has lived with this ever since. Well, now he is going to have to live with it for a while, in fact, for the rest of his non-repentant life and face up to what he has done before he dies. Don't get me wrong, I am very much for forgiving people who ask for it and even if they don't but do not support non-repentant people getting away with assault crimes.
Personally, I have a tremendous amount of respect for her for bringing it out into the open as I do for you.
If you ever decide to put the heat on him and prosecute the pervert (I'm sure you weren't the only one assalted), please know, at least I believe, that you will have a huge camp on your side... and a lot of people, too :-)
I contacted a lawyer years ago and it was not possible to sue a dead man. To continue in that vein would be too much trouble.
We have a hard enough time picking through all of it here among others who LIVED it.
I cannot imagine having to explain all this to a jury. I mean, look how we are received by a certain two males who frequent the board....
Not worth it.
Thanks for your love.
The women I worry about are those he actually "got" whether by fear, "drinks" or mental intimidation. I know my "trust" issues were large and I got away. The trust issues they deal with must be far more crippling.
For those of you who have not read it -- look at these two women -- the corps gal and the WOW. It tears me up. And there are gals here who are still in pain and unable to place their pain into sentences...
And the few who have tried, were given the uncompassionate third degree by a particular VPW worshiping cement head here.
But what you must understand is they already prepared for such events. They put out disinformation and have meetings where everyone HEARS you are a liar and deceiver.
I am unwilling to travel the road. There is no benefit large enough to coax me down it.
Ok, then. I respect your decision to leave it alone except for posting here. Too bad we can't post names so people would at least know who the sorry b****** is.
But just for the record, I believe you and I think you'd be surprised how many others would also.
One thing I have seen through the years is some people were perps because they were in the same mind bending cult we were in.
Rev. Mirt for instance, sent out an apology via an off shoot -- asking for forgiveness.
There are some who cling to the doctrines of devils and still push VPW's crap even though they have been every opportunity to let go of the "people hurting" doctrines of devils.
I do not get them - nor their disease to cling to such pain inflicting propaganda -- but they will have to answer for it.
In the bend perspective, of the minister we are discussing, -- I think he really believed he had the right bestowed upon him by God and was somehow helping me learn how to bless men of God...
I also heard through the years, that VPW helped himself to that man's wife and this became a "lifestyle" to them as they tried to emulate the man of God (errrrr Satan).
Hell, a large portion of early corps could be indited if we march forward -- but I fear many innocents would bear the punishment of their own confusion in trying to figure out the goodness of the "class" verses the badness of VPW
The trying to please God by being obedient to a man who claimed he spoke for God... It is too convoluted... Too sad.... So many lives who were able to rebuild would be again ruined...
There is a place where dreams come true on this earth. All of you have been there. It's a place where God's children take care of each other, and I mean all God's children. There is no judgement and there is no evil. Its a place with a wild dynamic of intense love and selfless giving. It's a place where , though challenges can be a regular occurence, faith and love still overcome all. Forgiveness is rampant.
It's wonderful to know someone who sees Greasespot the way you do. It's so serene and paradise like. A little taste of heaven almost. Glad to hear that some people here on GS have touched you so.
Amidst the fires going on here, you are a welcomed breath of fresh air!
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A la prochaine
Oh my gosh... so much to read.. so little time...
I'll be back!
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A la prochaine
Dot,
I feel I could start another thread with this sentence alone. Phewww... is that one ever power packed!
...I KNEW in my heart (which I no longer trusted)...
...say no more. What a realization for me!
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A la prochaine
Dot,
The 2 ministry theory certainly answers many of my questions about the TWI dichotomy we all lived. Thank you Dot for helping me understand this whole mess I was a part of for almost 20 yrs. What relief it is to finally put some of this together.
And I loved that line...I knew in my heart (which I no longer trusted). Sheeshh isn't that the truth!
You know, when I acted upon my heart in TWI, I usually found myself in more doo-doo from leadership than I care to think about. Then, when I did not, I ended up in more doo-doo from leadership than I care to think about. What an insane asylum that place was ~
-->
A little derailment here ...
I remember one corps night an incident was brought up where a certain leader had a business and he had pretty much used the believers in his area to make money, to help the business grow and then left them for dust. He pretty much took the money and ran. Many people including families were left in the lurch with nothing to show for all their effort and hard work. I believe this was done over quite a period of time, therefore there was alot of financial damage done.
On this particular corps night, LCM went on and on and on about the area corps who did not 'Speak Up'. When he said he asked why they hadn't (because these corps knew full well that these people were being used) the corps said..."They were too afraid to speak up." Exactly!!! I wonder who they were afraid of!
And here's the kicker, LCM said he knew this guy was rotten when he met him at the leaders meetings and on the field, yet he COULDN'T do anything because he didn't know enough details to put the guy in his place. So he HAD to allow it to go on, but that the corps should have spoken up.
At the end of the evening it certainly seemed to me that he railed on those corps even more than the guy who did the damage. And sometimes I wonder if the story wasn't just fabricated or at least exaggerated to just keep the listeners in more control. I know for myself that I certainly would never be the one to speak up...too much to risk...to be at the receiving end of LCM's wrath would do me in for sure!
I knew after that, I would certainly NO LONGER TRUST MY TRUE HEART.
What a twisting of the mind!
--> 
--> 
-->
OK, please do not let me derail any longer ... you may now return to the regularly scheduled program.
ps...I was wondering if there was somehow I could get this thread on the About The Way forum. I meant to post it there, but somehow I ended up here. Duh!
-->
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Dot Matrix
Ala - it was the most delivering thing for me -- and it was realized when The Evan and others shared how the charaters "Maggie Muggins" and the others were actually FIRST names in Leonard's class!
But VPW perverted the "believing = receiving" thing to make God a "formula" -- A vending machine God....
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Dot Matrix
Rascal
I should probably put this in a PT but you were so public with your pain that I will be honest and public in my post to you...
My dearest Rascal
This is not the first time you have mentioned your torment. I recall at least one other time if not two.
So, I am not going to try and alleviate your guilt as I do not know why you are really so personally tormented.
I assume you ALWAYS witnessed because of your love for God. But perhaps there is a person or two you did get involved because LEADERSHIP pushed you to “get a class together” or something.
So, all I can say is if on a couple of occasions you KNEW it was a creepy ministry and you witnessed out of obedience and fear -- God still loves you. If your heart is so heavy over this that it appears you cannot breath without pain…
Then apologize. Find those people and apologize. If you do not know where they are perhaps write it in “my story” so if they show up here they can read your apology.
There was one person I KNOW I hurt in TWI. A man I witnessed to and later married. At the point I married him I knew TWI was a piece of crap. But I was still on the merry-go-around of confusion trying to separate the good from the bad but unable to get a handle on it because I did not know the class was “stolen” at the time.
So, I let my circular thinking entrap him and me. I kept thinking how could a class that delivered me come from a man (VPW) who was in such bondage of “selfishness, narcissism and sexual perversion?"
I mean, he is teaching the class – why didn’t he get delivered and I did? So, even though I found my own heart to be untrustworthy as I felt the evil around me the closer I got to VPW and those sold out to his “doctrines” (which were opposite of the things I was taught early on in TWI -- the real Leonard ministry) I kept trying to get things back to the way they were. I did not know at the time they were NEVER that way for VPW (as he was (IMO) a satanic, lying, using, pervert looking for power at the expense of others). So VPW would never be brought back to the way I first experienced them because he was NEVER part of Leonard’s ministry. He was a thief who came to steal, kill and destroy.
But while in the center of confusion, knowing I was seeing evil, I married a really nice man I had gotten in the word. He became corps spouse, and then the wolves dissected him and ate his flesh to the bones. For that, I do feel I am responsible. We divorced about 17 years ago. I have written to him to apologize for not telling him what I did know and what I did see… I HAD only told him of the wonderful things I originally experienced and how wonderful God was. – The effects of what I now know to be “the Leonard” ministry. Before he became my husband and committed to "corps" spouse statis I had an obligation to tell him that VPW had hit on me, the cover-ups, the perversion in the leaders I had seen... But I did not...
I was an azz myself, at that time with him, and it did and does eat at me...
I have never had a reply. I still pray for him and I am tormented by allowing my cloud of confusion rest on his head without trying to explain it. But at the time I could not suffiecntly understand it myself.
So, if you have a few tormented people who, as a result of your witnessing after you knew TWI was crazy – then follow your heart. Ask God to forgive you, he will. Then ask the person to forgive you. He may or may not but at least your apology is out there and your heart can move forward.
As far as the original question it is on a long list of
Why God why? Questions we all have.
The woman whose son died and Elijah went to see. Why give me a son just to take him away?
A man (my husband worked with) had to bury his 9-year-old son who dies from cancer --- Why? Why bring me this child to take him away?
I was having car trouble and my father drove his car out to California to give me. WHAT A NICE GESTURE! Only, weeks later I was hit head on to have it totaled – why God why?
Why when I sought you did it feel so good to be “found” then later to realize the “group” was a damaged soul-robbing group? Why God? Why?
Why God would you invent the “world” knowing Lucifer is was going to steer life away into pain and injury?
Why did you invent Lucufer? Why not just skip him?
I do not know. We can all seek a truth in life. Maybe if my Dad did not bring out his car I would have died in the smaller sports car I was having trouble with….
Maybe….
Maybe….
As we find “our truth” some have concluded that life is capricious and there is no God.
Others, feel all things are some how “a blessing in disguise.”
Others have held onto TWI being through and thoroughly from God (TWI 1, 2 and 3) because they cannot handle the alternative
Others still ponder in pain
Some pick through it because they have to see the trick as they are terrified to be tricked again
Others left and never look back – almost pretending it did not exist for them
Those who enjoyed making others miserable have a whole other truth to find… why did they enjoy the EVIL ministry and try to destroy the “good” one?
Perhaps we only see as through a glass darkly.
I am one who has to pick at it until I figure out what makes sense to me. The only thing that seems reasonable to me is that we were in two ministries at one time. A good one and a bad.
And that God does look at the heart and intent thereof.
I hope you find away to let go of your pain...
Apologizing maybe germane to that healing for you or for the person(s) you may have felt you hurt. Maybe the reason it stirs you, is not because you are guilty of anything, but someone out there needs to "hear" what happened. How it all turned out so badly.
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
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waterbuffalo
Dot,
Thanks for your perspective and for making the TWO WAY MINISTRIES now so clear.
So, the "something more" we thought we were seeing--thinking the closer one got to vp, the closer one would be to God--was really just what it appeared to be on the surface--secrecy, not spirituality. So the "higher" one climbed, the lower one actually GOT.
I had trouble sleeping two nights ago after reading your story on the other site because of the injustice of the whole thing. I was so angry that I couldn't think of any comforting words to say to you. I just hurt for you.
I know you've thought about this before and probably decided not to do it, but it is my understanding that the statue of limitations do not run out on a rape case.
The reason I bring this up is because a 50 something year old woman who lived in my hometown for a while is now pressing charges against her father. He was a Methodist minister and forced himself on her twice when she was a teenager and she has lived with this ever since. Well, now he is going to have to live with it for a while, in fact, for the rest of his non-repentant life and face up to what he has done before he dies. Don't get me wrong, I am very much for forgiving people who ask for it and even if they don't but do not support non-repentant people getting away with assault crimes.
Personally, I have a tremendous amount of respect for her for bringing it out into the open as I do for you.
If you ever decide to put the heat on him and prosecute the pervert (I'm sure you weren't the only one assalted), please know, at least I believe, that you will have a huge camp on your side... and a lot of people, too :-)
(((((((THANK YOU DOT)))))))
WB
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Dot Matrix
I contacted a lawyer years ago and it was not possible to sue a dead man. To continue in that vein would be too much trouble.
We have a hard enough time picking through all of it here among others who LIVED it.
I cannot imagine having to explain all this to a jury. I mean, look how we are received by a certain two males who frequent the board....
Not worth it.
Thanks for your love.
The women I worry about are those he actually "got" whether by fear, "drinks" or mental intimidation. I know my "trust" issues were large and I got away. The trust issues they deal with must be far more crippling.
For those of you who have not read it -- look at these two women -- the corps gal and the WOW. It tears me up. And there are gals here who are still in pain and unable to place their pain into sentences...
And the few who have tried, were given the uncompassionate third degree by a particular VPW worshiping cement head here.
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
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waterbuffalo
Dot,
Just for clarification, I was talking about the limb coord. creep that you spoke about on that other site. Is he dead, too?
WB
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Dot Matrix
No.
But what you must understand is they already prepared for such events. They put out disinformation and have meetings where everyone HEARS you are a liar and deceiver.
I am unwilling to travel the road. There is no benefit large enough to coax me down it.
It is over.
Thank you
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waterbuffalo
Ok, then. I respect your decision to leave it alone except for posting here. Too bad we can't post names so people would at least know who the sorry b****** is.
But just for the record, I believe you and I think you'd be surprised how many others would also.
Please **** your pts.
Wb
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Dot Matrix
Thanks
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Dot Matrix
One thing I have seen through the years is some people were perps because they were in the same mind bending cult we were in.
Rev. Mirt for instance, sent out an apology via an off shoot -- asking for forgiveness.
There are some who cling to the doctrines of devils and still push VPW's crap even though they have been every opportunity to let go of the "people hurting" doctrines of devils.
I do not get them - nor their disease to cling to such pain inflicting propaganda -- but they will have to answer for it.
In the bend perspective, of the minister we are discussing, -- I think he really believed he had the right bestowed upon him by God and was somehow helping me learn how to bless men of God...
I also heard through the years, that VPW helped himself to that man's wife and this became a "lifestyle" to them as they tried to emulate the man of God (errrrr Satan).
Hell, a large portion of early corps could be indited if we march forward -- but I fear many innocents would bear the punishment of their own confusion in trying to figure out the goodness of the "class" verses the badness of VPW
The trying to please God by being obedient to a man who claimed he spoke for God... It is too convoluted... Too sad.... So many lives who were able to rebuild would be again ruined...
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imbus
WoW Dot,
Thanks for being candid and honest. Coffee at my place anytime.
:D-->
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jell remler
There is a place where dreams come true on this earth. All of you have been there. It's a place where God's children take care of each other, and I mean all God's children. There is no judgement and there is no evil. Its a place with a wild dynamic of intense love and selfless giving. It's a place where , though challenges can be a regular occurence, faith and love still overcome all. Forgiveness is rampant.
It's a world where there is no Way Ministry.
I've seen it here on GreaseSpot
Love,
Jell
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A la prochaine
Dear Jell,
It's wonderful to know someone who sees Greasespot the way you do. It's so serene and paradise like. A little taste of heaven almost. Glad to hear that some people here on GS have touched you so.
Amidst the fires going on here, you are a welcomed breath of fresh air!
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