It was a very heartfelt question and seemed worthy of discussion.
I've been away all day today and to my shock and amazement ... there was 3 pages to this thread. So I've been reading for the past 45 minutes. (I'm a slow reader :(-->)
So many of your posts have brought me to tears here. This seems to be such a topic that reaches way way way down deep and everyone has such insight about this topic.
I know for me it has to be the most perplexing issue about my whole TWI experience.
Was it really an answer from God?
If so, were we to take what we needed and then move on?
Were we simply deceived from a good sales job or was it partially the genuine article?
Was God limited because there were so many churches not doing their jobs?
Is there really no God and we just saw what we wanted to see in a time of crisis in our lives?
Is it true if Exxie had started this thread we would be on page 22?
All I know is that I, in someway, or another followed what I thought my heart was telling me to do. Socks' story was genuine and he is living the benefits of that in his life to this day.
And so, I believe that in my life (and maybe for others here as well), I am living in part what my heart has directed me to do ... be it good, be it bad.
Unfortunately, TWI made it virtually impossible for us to nurture what our hearts were telling us and be guided by it. Perhaps by this experience, we will certainly be stronger and more convinced than ever what our path should or shouldn't be. Hopefully as we heal and move on we will follow our true hearts once again.
If so, were we to take what we needed and then move on?
Now that is an interesting point. I've been exploring all my life looking for things to help my students learn science....but I never stayed in any one mode too long!
With regard to twi, what should have been a couple of rungs on a ladder became a comfortable porch so we stayed around...hung out...and, at least I got a little lazy thinking this was THE answer to spiritual matters.
Excathy - before you went in the korpse...there must have been some blessing and reward in it...otherwise I don't think you would have signed on the dotted line looking for more.
==============================
And I only speak for myself here...although I don't believe I'm alone. After the initial rush from piffle in thinking we could understand the Bible for ourselves...how much re=checking did we do for ourselves? I got lazy there...if I had been more consistently diligent I thing I would have seen the evils before I got zapped by them. I think we took too much for granted and paid a heavy price.
quote:And I only speak for myself here...although I don't believe I'm alone. After the initial rush from piffle in thinking we could understand the Bible for ourselves...how much re=checking did we do for ourselves? I got lazy there...if I had been more consistently diligent I thing I would have seen the evils before I got zapped by them. I think we took too much for granted and paid a heavy price.
I would like to clarify something and I do not know that typing words here will communicate what I am trying to say --
I do not BELIEVE that God was involved with, part of, watching over or happy with TWI.
I do not believe it was a "polluted pool" as that somehow makes it sound like a mix of good and bad.
I believe VPW started the ministry for his own gain NOT for God or to help people. I believe he was SUCH a failure at developing a church that he devised a plan after taking a class BG Leonard had cultivated.
I believe we were not part of a group with good and bad properties. I believe we were a part of two completely different ministry but we did not know it.
The appealing introduction and initial involvement was REALLY Leonard's class and hard work as a minister of God. Because the word of God is bigger than we are somehow we still benefited by its presentation to us --even though it was stolen by a jack azz.
Makes me think of the movie where they showed the development of the Apple computer. The cute and easy icons were originally developed by a woman who then had her hard work stolen and marketed by Apple. Did we still benefit from her work? Yes, we could click on a picture and have access to things more easily.
Dr. Phil is now engaged in a lawsuit with his old partner who says SHE developed the classes and book ideas for helping people get released from their "problems” but I do not even know her name. However, many people are benefiting from her work. And if Phil has the right stuff he will be able to continue his career. If not his true colors will show once we pass the initial things he shares as -- claimed by his old partner-- they are stolen.
I believe that perhaps God did not use the WAY ministry but some good and kind people to whom he could speak, who happened to be in the WAY -- whose hearts were right to turn a car around and come and share what they knew....
Unfortunately, it was good stuff from a bad source.
So I do not believe the WAY was a blend of Good and Bad -- I believe it was bad the only good we felt came from a God who loved us, the work of another (or several other) decent men --in SPITE of THE WAY.
God can reach through a cesspool to help someone -- it does not mean he created the cesspool.
The question posed by Ex is a soulful one -- but really does not have some kind of a Utopian answer. Such as if only we would have all been Catholics life would have been great. All answers would have been present and no other catholic would have ever hurt us.
The world is peppered with good and evil. I may sit in a pew on Sunday next to a great person -- next week at the same church I may sit near a serial killer.
I think God's church is sprinkled in the hearts of Good people and sometimes we are to BE somewhere and sometimes we are to leave.
I cannot deny the benefits of Piffle at that time in my life, I cannot tolerate or excuse the evil I saw at HQS and in VPW, I can only say in a mad and cruel world I was helped when I needed to be by many sources and that patchwork quilt of "sources" continues to change. Maybe that is what church is... maybe it is in the hearts of people and will never be found as a "whole" on one location.
I do think there are better locations than others. The Lutherans I knew did not sing with zest but the ones I knew were not criminals masquerading as "good and helpful" people.
Maybe it is a "walk".
I f VPW did not start his ministry on the heart and work of another I do not think ANY of us would have been involved with the fruits of his labor. His actual fruits were cruel, self-serving, narcissistic, plagiarism and criminal IMO.
Think about it, if it was not hidden behind another man's work we would have been witnessed to like this:
"Hey, you are cute and I would like you to meet my needs. It's okay. BTW, ya wanna have a burger? We can go sit at McDonals's and believe God to have someone buy us lunch.... Money? Money who needs money? We work part time and give our money to a man who (it has been reported) slips drugs in drinks and sexually abuses them. He is "called" of God after all. But don't worry if you get knocked up we can have abundant sharing pay for it.... it's cool. By the way, our leader really invented the "fast food" restuarant, the "hook shot" and has God confirm things with snow storms. It is getting cloudy -- hey maybe it will snow and confirm another Biblical truth today!"
Oh yeah, sign us up!
I think the jews saw God work in the concentration camps while under the Germans. Does that mean God wanted them in the camps? Or brought him his love in spite of the camps?
I guess I was searching when I found TWI (or it found me)... I evidently had this big void inside that I was trying to fill with daily visits from the THC god and visits every now and then from the mind expanding gods... after the first twig, I didn't even feel the urge anymore, nobody told me not to, I just didn't honestly feel the need to anymore... there was a lot of love in that group of WOWs, there was a lot of truth and genuine caring there...
IT WAS GENUINE (in that place, at that time)
I feel that regardless of veepee's motives good was being done, people were being delivered... it wasn't perfect, but for me there was an honest and heartfelt transformation. It really freaked out my family (in a good way).
It was real... where we were. It took about six or seven years before I saw where it was going so I left...
I'm inclined to believe that TWI, for many of us, was 'steps along the path to enlightenment'... and I always remember that along with (or maybe in spite of) the evil that took place with veepee his personal assistants... there was a lot of genuine deliverance and good done by others... at least that was my experience...
quote:I believe we were not part of a group with good and bad properties. I believe we were a part of two completely different ministry but we did not know it.
Thats it Tom...a lot of good WAS done ...in SPITE of vp...The thing that attracted us was the GOOD people that ministered to us....now I wonder ...was it really good??....
I am sorry ...I guess that I am dealing with being mad ...that we...as the *good* people...we were in reality what sucked people in to their destruction...If people hadn`t seen us...our wholesome christian enthusiasm and decency....would people have been lured in to be to have so much stolen from them....
Our *walks* are what decieved people ...our innocent joy was what caused people to lower their defenses consequently making them vulnerable to be preyed upon by vp and his chosen ones....
Our heartfelt prayers...our selfless giving...our contagious youthfull enthusiasm...is what blinded people to the darkness that was looming.
Our honesty and integrety is what convinced them that this group was wholesome....and worth it enough to give up their lives...goals family ...sanity....
I feel like I was a PIMP for satan...procuring victims for his consumption....no matter how pure my motives were....I thought that I was serving God....but who REALLY benefited??? Us??? those we lured in??? GOD???
Seems to me the ones who benefited truly were Men serving satan...as Dott said...had these guys come at us with vpw and twi`s real doctrine ....nobody would have ever bought it...they`d have run fast....
Had evil not had us to hide behind...it would have never succeded....We were like some kind of camoflage for some of the sickest nastiest bastards that ever walked the planet....
Seems like we were a functioning part of something that was horrendously destructive....was God REALLY behind us getting involved ...was there REALLY any *spiritual* benefit or are we simply grasping at straws in order to not recognise our own culpability in the destruction....I just don`t know...
I have a hard time believeing that God had anything to do with it....n then I get ....ed and wonder why he didn`t/doesn`t care enough to steer us clear....you KNOW there had to be some group somewhere that could have met our needs....It just seems like one more kick in the bu tt from lifetime of crushing blows...one more time of being *screwed* ...and I wonder why.
When it comes to pondering any line of thought that may have the word "spiritual" in it, I have developed two basics rules to guide my actions:
1. It's all bull$hit.
2. When you come to the place where that particular line of reasoning or philosophy is making REAL sense to you and giving you great insight, refer to rule #1.
quote: Our *walks* are what decieved people ...our innocent joy was what caused people to lower their defenses consequently making them vulnerable to be preyed upon by vp and his chosen ones....
Our heartfelt prayers...our selfless giving...our contagious youthfull enthusiasm...is what blinded people to the darkness that was looming.
Our honesty and integrety is what convinced them that this group was wholesome....and worth it enough to give up their lives...goals family ...sanity....
Now I will try to type an answer as this is so difficult to express.
I never was joyous to deceive people and I bet you werem't either. I was joyous because God loved me and I wanted others to know God loved them. That is why I say there were two ministries. While I was in that "sate" I was working for God offering people hope and I saw them get help.
That was the fruits from Leonard's ministry (IMO)
But when I stayed after seeing the insanity and invited people to twig knowing if they moved up the chain to meet the people at HQS. etc. Then I was in "TWI" confused but in effect working for Satan. I kept thinking I could help "fix" things and I KNEW in my heart (which I no longer trusted) things were beyond repair.
Most people I witnessed to at that time I got them through the class then kinda backed off and let them go live their lives because I honestly did not want them to "sell out" and see the painful side.
At that point had I pushed them to go "in the corps" with a fake smile then I feel I would have been a pimp for Satan.
Because it would have been at that time I would have no longer been "in" Leonard's minstry but the evil VPW.
For instance, in CA. there was a real azz. He thought people would be blessed to live in house and learn from him. He sold this idea to young believers who then made a year commitment to live with him in a WAY HOME. I met this guy on the beach who had a chance to get in on the ground floor of an incredible resturant ownership deal.
The leader wanted him to decline the offer and move in with him.
I KNEW that the leader just used people to PAY the bills and he and his family did not chip in for rent or basics.
The guy I witnessed to came and asked "what to do?"
I told him take the resturant deal, do NOT move in with the leader and be very careful.
He listened and today is a part owner in a chain of resturants.
If I told him to move in with the leader, then at that point, I would NOT have been honest, helpful or working for God. If I told him to move in with the leader that would have been typical "WAY" motives and lies and at that point I would have worked for Satan.
When I saw and saw and saw again things were not going to be fixed --
I confronted VPW and wrote him a letter of confrontation -- then I left.
It was not until I turned up here that I heard all about Leonard's class etc. Then, it all fit! We were in two different ministries. One of God and one wasn't. WE just did not know it -- but I thhink we always "felt" it.
Ya know the constant trying to reconcile why "this" was so good and "that" wasn't. Why the closer one got to VP/LCM the worse and less loving things were...
At least this is what my involvement was like.
Does that make sense? And I do pray for those I got involved -- I pray they left when they knew it was time.
It makes sense...Dott, I see what you are saying...I think that you are absolutely right....but I still feel dirty...I am trying to understand culpability...
It`s like this friend I know...she sells insurance...insurance nobody can really afford...everybody kicks themselves for signing up for.....most cancel after a year...but hey it doesn`t matter cause they got your money.....and they will just sucker somebody new....but because she is charasmatic...she sells herself...People buy into her contagious enthusiasm...her *catch* phrases...She can make it seem like the most logical thing in the world....it so reminds me of getting sucked in to pfal...
People wouldn`t contact this company and say...hey let me give you a hundred bucks a month to hold for me in case I die....and if I do this every month for 15 years....I can get it back someday........naw you are invited to lunch or dinner with this friend n before you know it....you have walked away with a policy you don`t need and cant afford....n she`s so good... a year later she invites you to lunch...have you learned? oh hell no....I`d be delighted to get away for lunch....n you walk away with insurance policies on your damn kids....
I think she is completely sold out...totally believes what she does...but me? I bought a whole lot of crap I didn`t want and don`t need.
But hey...she`s innocent right? Because it`s new york life that is behind her...they are the ones pocketing all the money....so she`s really just prostituting for the insurance co.
Does this make ANY sense in regards to how I feel about my participation and the folks who were so nice to me?
But did you sell something to someone YOU KNEW would hurt them?
Or at the time did you think you were doing a loving thing?
I think a lot of life is what motivates us.
If you got a bunch of people in TWI after you knew it was going to hurt them, then find them and apologize. If you gave them "Christ" from a place of love and compassion then I think at that point - in that situation - you were working for God.
But that is JMO..
If I sell acar that runs well and it breaks down a month later and I sold it "as is" I am not responsible. If I find out my car has serious problems and I hide those problems and deceitfully present the car as running well... and it breaks down a month later then I feel I am responsible.
That is what I would like to think also dot, I really would...but was I really bringing them to *christ* if it was their introduction to into hell?
How clever is that? Use God`s name and scriptures to ensare victims for satan.
Was I really so harmless in my service to God, when I was procuring people and their resources for consumption by wolves in sheeps clothing? Or was I serving Satan...and agent of darkness...although unbeknownst to me...People throughout history have done horrible horrible things in the name of God and in his service....but who has really been served....I am sure that the people murdering in allah`s name today have hearts and motives every bit as pure as mine...does that excuse them or make them basically *good* though misdirected?
That is a good point Dott, I am not trying to be argumentative ...I am simply trying to understand ... I don`t ever want to wake up on the wrong side of the fence again...
"I think she is completely sold out...totally believes what she does..."
"But hey...she`s innocent right? Because it`s new york life that is behind her...they are the ones pocketing all the money....so she`s really just prostituting for the insurance co."
Each man is innocent in his own eyes.
Over the years, I have many times had long discussions with insurance conmen. I was blessed once when a friend in college photo-copied a passage from the California State penal code, it was the part saying that gambling is illegal. It had to describe gambling and define it. For every inch of paragragh trying to describe gambling, there was yet another paragragh saying that if it is done by an 'insurance' company it is legal.
Making a wager based on chance, wherein the 'house' is using statistics to hedge their bet and give them an advantage.
"I feel like a whore...."
No you are not.
What about a police man who chases 'crooks' for doing something that the policemen himself knows should not be illegal. But when it all goes to court, the 'crook' will spend years in prison. Lawyers do it.
Many of us prostitute ourselves out, against our own beleifs, and in violation of what we know to be right.
The more I think about it, the more apropriate my analogy strikes me....My friend...every month NYL sends out *bonuses* ...get so many knew policies...get 500 bucks extra....get so many the next month and it will be 900 bucks...etc...miss a month and you are back at fround zero....so she is constantly under pressure to bring in fresh *meat*....
Reminds me of the tc and leaders meetings...pressure to have a class...how many students your twig needed to have in the class...by what date...the pressure was enormous...and I was *motivated* to be all that much more *intense* in my efforts to have our requisit number....sure I pushed...I leaned on the rest of my twig members....I worked tirelessly...did what ever was needed (never dishonest) to inspire these people into this class that they really needed anyway....I did not see myself as doing anything wrong....the people that I trusted said that this was what God needed and that it was what I needed to do to please him and to grow....but the result was the same...though these people bought a product from me...on my say so...infected by my intensity and enthusiasm...after trial and examination...most realised that it was not what they originally believed that they were buying.....many held on not wanting to believe that they had thrown away so much....(that is where I am at with my life insurance) ...many were convinced if they held on long enough and worked hard enough...that it would BECOME what they originally thought that they bought....and some just cut their losses and left.
RasCathy... I'm thinking DotDotDot and I feel the same way on this... and I think it comes down to intent and heart... before you knew of the evil at the root of the ministry OR after you started discovering the evil... it's all steps along a path... folks got hurt... but YOU didn't do the hurting... you didn't 'set them up' to be used and abused, you tried to help them find a way to attain a more than abundant life... try to rest easy knowing that you did good... and still do...
RasCathy... the difference between your friend and you in that scenario is that your friend did it for personal gain and profit... you did it out of the love in your heart for God... there's a big difference... sure, both are sales jobs... but one is for the gain of self, one is for gain of other...
Refiner, don't worry, people won't take umbrage at your belief. We have discussed this a few times before on here, including whether VP or LCM were even really "born again" according to the Bible definition as we knew it.
I think there are several factors to be considered in our history. There were/are basically two generations in TWI. Many of us who you are talking to were the younger hippies. The world was crazy in the late '60s, early '70s. We were looking for a place to rest - take a breather, a time out. TWI offered that refuge for many people and a promise to know God.
The Hare Krishna used to come to my high school in NY. I was definitely searching for something spiritual. I loved those guys. They invited me to their temple in Brooklyn. I was 15, my mom said I could go, but none of my friends wanted to go with me. Within days, my best friend told me about the Way and took me to a fellowship in Rye. So, with me, yes, it would have been whoever got to me first. If I had gone to Brooklyn, I would have been a die hard Hare Krishna convert.
But, I also believe in those days there was a great spiritual revival of our generation. There was a wonderful thread here once on the early days, how incredible it was, how God moved - maybe someone could bring it up, you really should read it, I think it would give you some wonderful insight. This was when there was no governing body, the Way leadership wasn't really in place, and we were young, free, and on our own, and we did see God work and people delivered. Not just TWI, but other groups of Christians around the country experienced the same thing. I have never seen a revival like it since.
Then - clamp down, VPW overthrew the NY and California hippie leadership and claimed it for himself. Over time, freedom is lost, we see less and less of God's working. Its a long story.
I also, when I left found some great books on the history or certain groups and realized VP was in it for the money. He was a member of what were called the "Tulsa Renegade Pastors" after WWII. As the nation prospered, these men all decided they would make more money if they left their churches and all started their own ministries. VP, after years of looking for a product to sell, found BG's class and coopted it as his own and taught it to us as PFAL.
Dot nailed in on this and another thread. We were actually the fruit of another, Godly man's minstry, which VP corrupted. I too had always wondered how we saw great results when VP was a moody, sob in private. Dot's insight helped me piece that together.
I believe VP no more walked with God than Stalin or Hitler did. But he had a product and played the role and made his money. But, it was the truth in the product and the wonderful people who were involved in the ministry that made it alive and vibrant those early years. Many stayed hoping they could make it that way again.
I enjoy your opinions Refiner, especially from someone looking in. Its interesting to me to see how we are viewed from the "outside." Please feel free to give your opinions.
Refiner, don't know if you want to go into it this deep... but Sunesis' post made me think of this book: 'The House of Acts', here's what Amazon had...
It's about some of the West Coast Jesus folks that veepee subsequently hijacked... just a thought...
Thanks again for putting words to concepts. You do it well. The 2 ministries under one roof speaks volumes. Until I went into the corpes I experianced and lived the B.J Lenords interpretaion of the BiBle. Being at H.Q, I experianced V.P and his gangs interpetation.
Some of V.Ps influence would find its way, on occasion, to my reality as a WOW or TC but...THANK GOD it was minimal and harmless. It was being under the same roof so to speak(H.Qs) that created huge painful problems.
Dot keep speaking your truth it makes a HE11 of a lot of sence. :D-->
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excathedra
anyway, i love to hear and learn from you all about matters of the heart
.
putting that down there because i like space at the bottom but it doesn't happen on all threads
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A la prochaine
Exxie,
You are very welcome.
:)-->
It was a very heartfelt question and seemed worthy of discussion.
I've been away all day today and to my shock and amazement
... there was 3 pages to this thread. So I've been reading for the past 45 minutes. (I'm a slow reader 
:(-->)
So many of your posts have brought me to tears here. This seems to be such a topic that reaches way way way down deep and everyone has such insight about this topic.
I know for me it has to be the most perplexing issue about my whole TWI experience.
All I know is that I, in someway, or another followed what I thought my heart was telling me to do. Socks' story was genuine and he is living the benefits of that in his life to this day.
And so, I believe that in my life (and maybe for others here as well), I am living in part what my heart has directed me to do ... be it good, be it bad.
Unfortunately, TWI made it virtually impossible for us to nurture what our hearts were telling us and be guided by it. Perhaps by this experience, we will certainly be stronger and more convinced than ever what our path should or shouldn't be. Hopefully as we heal and move on we will follow our true hearts once again.
Thanks for helping me find my path.
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krys
Now that is an interesting point. I've been exploring all my life looking for things to help my students learn science....but I never stayed in any one mode too long!
With regard to twi, what should have been a couple of rungs on a ladder became a comfortable porch so we stayed around...hung out...and, at least I got a little lazy thinking this was THE answer to spiritual matters.
Excathy - before you went in the korpse...there must have been some blessing and reward in it...otherwise I don't think you would have signed on the dotted line looking for more.
==============================
And I only speak for myself here...although I don't believe I'm alone. After the initial rush from piffle in thinking we could understand the Bible for ourselves...how much re=checking did we do for ourselves? I got lazy there...if I had been more consistently diligent I thing I would have seen the evils before I got zapped by them. I think we took too much for granted and paid a heavy price.
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A la prochaine
Krysilis,
Exactomundo!
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Dot Matrix
I would like to clarify something and I do not know that typing words here will communicate what I am trying to say --
I do not BELIEVE that God was involved with, part of, watching over or happy with TWI.
I do not believe it was a "polluted pool" as that somehow makes it sound like a mix of good and bad.
I believe VPW started the ministry for his own gain NOT for God or to help people. I believe he was SUCH a failure at developing a church that he devised a plan after taking a class BG Leonard had cultivated.
I believe we were not part of a group with good and bad properties. I believe we were a part of two completely different ministry but we did not know it.
The appealing introduction and initial involvement was REALLY Leonard's class and hard work as a minister of God. Because the word of God is bigger than we are somehow we still benefited by its presentation to us --even though it was stolen by a jack azz.
Makes me think of the movie where they showed the development of the Apple computer. The cute and easy icons were originally developed by a woman who then had her hard work stolen and marketed by Apple. Did we still benefit from her work? Yes, we could click on a picture and have access to things more easily.
Dr. Phil is now engaged in a lawsuit with his old partner who says SHE developed the classes and book ideas for helping people get released from their "problems” but I do not even know her name. However, many people are benefiting from her work. And if Phil has the right stuff he will be able to continue his career. If not his true colors will show once we pass the initial things he shares as -- claimed by his old partner-- they are stolen.
I believe that perhaps God did not use the WAY ministry but some good and kind people to whom he could speak, who happened to be in the WAY -- whose hearts were right to turn a car around and come and share what they knew....
Unfortunately, it was good stuff from a bad source.
So I do not believe the WAY was a blend of Good and Bad -- I believe it was bad the only good we felt came from a God who loved us, the work of another (or several other) decent men --in SPITE of THE WAY.
God can reach through a cesspool to help someone -- it does not mean he created the cesspool.
The question posed by Ex is a soulful one -- but really does not have some kind of a Utopian answer. Such as if only we would have all been Catholics life would have been great. All answers would have been present and no other catholic would have ever hurt us.
The world is peppered with good and evil. I may sit in a pew on Sunday next to a great person -- next week at the same church I may sit near a serial killer.
I think God's church is sprinkled in the hearts of Good people and sometimes we are to BE somewhere and sometimes we are to leave.
I cannot deny the benefits of Piffle at that time in my life, I cannot tolerate or excuse the evil I saw at HQS and in VPW, I can only say in a mad and cruel world I was helped when I needed to be by many sources and that patchwork quilt of "sources" continues to change. Maybe that is what church is... maybe it is in the hearts of people and will never be found as a "whole" on one location.
I do think there are better locations than others. The Lutherans I knew did not sing with zest but the ones I knew were not criminals masquerading as "good and helpful" people.
Maybe it is a "walk".
I f VPW did not start his ministry on the heart and work of another I do not think ANY of us would have been involved with the fruits of his labor. His actual fruits were cruel, self-serving, narcissistic, plagiarism and criminal IMO.
Think about it, if it was not hidden behind another man's work we would have been witnessed to like this:
"Hey, you are cute and I would like you to meet my needs. It's okay. BTW, ya wanna have a burger? We can go sit at McDonals's and believe God to have someone buy us lunch.... Money? Money who needs money? We work part time and give our money to a man who (it has been reported) slips drugs in drinks and sexually abuses them. He is "called" of God after all. But don't worry if you get knocked up we can have abundant sharing pay for it.... it's cool. By the way, our leader really invented the "fast food" restuarant, the "hook shot" and has God confirm things with snow storms. It is getting cloudy -- hey maybe it will snow and confirm another Biblical truth today!"
Oh yeah, sign us up!
I think the jews saw God work in the concentration camps while under the Germans. Does that mean God wanted them in the camps? Or brought him his love in spite of the camps?
That is all I mean. You do not have to agree.
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Dot Matrix
(((Socks)))
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Dot Matrix
(((Imbus)))
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Tom Strange
yeah... what a lot of you said...
:)-->
I guess I was searching when I found TWI (or it found me)... I evidently had this big void inside that I was trying to fill with daily visits from the THC god and visits every now and then from the mind expanding gods... after the first twig, I didn't even feel the urge anymore, nobody told me not to, I just didn't honestly feel the need to anymore... there was a lot of love in that group of WOWs, there was a lot of truth and genuine caring there...
IT WAS GENUINE (in that place, at that time)
I feel that regardless of veepee's motives good was being done, people were being delivered... it wasn't perfect, but for me there was an honest and heartfelt transformation. It really freaked out my family (in a good way).
It was real... where we were. It took about six or seven years before I saw where it was going so I left...
I'm inclined to believe that TWI, for many of us, was 'steps along the path to enlightenment'... and I always remember that along with (or maybe in spite of) the evil that took place with veepee his personal assistants... there was a lot of genuine deliverance and good done by others... at least that was my experience...
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rascal
ROFLMAO!!! witnessing!!! OMG...Dott THAT is hysterical........
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Tom Strange
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rascal
Thats it Tom...a lot of good WAS done ...in SPITE of vp...The thing that attracted us was the GOOD people that ministered to us....now I wonder ...was it really good??....
I am sorry ...I guess that I am dealing with being mad ...that we...as the *good* people...we were in reality what sucked people in to their destruction...If people hadn`t seen us...our wholesome christian enthusiasm and decency....would people have been lured in to be to have so much stolen from them....
Our *walks* are what decieved people ...our innocent joy was what caused people to lower their defenses consequently making them vulnerable to be preyed upon by vp and his chosen ones....
Our heartfelt prayers...our selfless giving...our contagious youthfull enthusiasm...is what blinded people to the darkness that was looming.
Our honesty and integrety is what convinced them that this group was wholesome....and worth it enough to give up their lives...goals family ...sanity....
I feel like I was a PIMP for satan...procuring victims for his consumption....no matter how pure my motives were....I thought that I was serving God....but who REALLY benefited??? Us??? those we lured in??? GOD???
Seems to me the ones who benefited truly were Men serving satan...as Dott said...had these guys come at us with vpw and twi`s real doctrine ....nobody would have ever bought it...they`d have run fast....
Had evil not had us to hide behind...it would have never succeded....We were like some kind of camoflage for some of the sickest nastiest bastards that ever walked the planet....
Seems like we were a functioning part of something that was horrendously destructive....was God REALLY behind us getting involved ...was there REALLY any *spiritual* benefit or are we simply grasping at straws in order to not recognise our own culpability in the destruction....I just don`t know...
I have a hard time believeing that God had anything to do with it....n then I get ....ed and wonder why he didn`t/doesn`t care enough to steer us clear....you KNOW there had to be some group somewhere that could have met our needs....It just seems like one more kick in the bu tt from lifetime of crushing blows...one more time of being *screwed* ...and I wonder why.
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George Aar
When it comes to pondering any line of thought that may have the word "spiritual" in it, I have developed two basics rules to guide my actions:
1. It's all bull$hit.
2. When you come to the place where that particular line of reasoning or philosophy is making REAL sense to you and giving you great insight, refer to rule #1.
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Dot Matrix
Rascal you said
Now I will try to type an answer as this is so difficult to express.
I never was joyous to deceive people and I bet you werem't either. I was joyous because God loved me and I wanted others to know God loved them. That is why I say there were two ministries. While I was in that "sate" I was working for God offering people hope and I saw them get help.
That was the fruits from Leonard's ministry (IMO)
But when I stayed after seeing the insanity and invited people to twig knowing if they moved up the chain to meet the people at HQS. etc. Then I was in "TWI" confused but in effect working for Satan. I kept thinking I could help "fix" things and I KNEW in my heart (which I no longer trusted) things were beyond repair.
Most people I witnessed to at that time I got them through the class then kinda backed off and let them go live their lives because I honestly did not want them to "sell out" and see the painful side.
At that point had I pushed them to go "in the corps" with a fake smile then I feel I would have been a pimp for Satan.
Because it would have been at that time I would have no longer been "in" Leonard's minstry but the evil VPW.
For instance, in CA. there was a real azz. He thought people would be blessed to live in house and learn from him. He sold this idea to young believers who then made a year commitment to live with him in a WAY HOME. I met this guy on the beach who had a chance to get in on the ground floor of an incredible resturant ownership deal.
The leader wanted him to decline the offer and move in with him.
I KNEW that the leader just used people to PAY the bills and he and his family did not chip in for rent or basics.
The guy I witnessed to came and asked "what to do?"
I told him take the resturant deal, do NOT move in with the leader and be very careful.
He listened and today is a part owner in a chain of resturants.
If I told him to move in with the leader, then at that point, I would NOT have been honest, helpful or working for God. If I told him to move in with the leader that would have been typical "WAY" motives and lies and at that point I would have worked for Satan.
When I saw and saw and saw again things were not going to be fixed --
I confronted VPW and wrote him a letter of confrontation -- then I left.
It was not until I turned up here that I heard all about Leonard's class etc. Then, it all fit! We were in two different ministries. One of God and one wasn't. WE just did not know it -- but I thhink we always "felt" it.
Ya know the constant trying to reconcile why "this" was so good and "that" wasn't. Why the closer one got to VP/LCM the worse and less loving things were...
At least this is what my involvement was like.
Does that make sense? And I do pray for those I got involved -- I pray they left when they knew it was time.
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rascal
It makes sense...Dott, I see what you are saying...I think that you are absolutely right....but I still feel dirty...I am trying to understand culpability...
It`s like this friend I know...she sells insurance...insurance nobody can really afford...everybody kicks themselves for signing up for.....most cancel after a year...but hey it doesn`t matter cause they got your money.....and they will just sucker somebody new....but because she is charasmatic...she sells herself...People buy into her contagious enthusiasm...her *catch* phrases...She can make it seem like the most logical thing in the world....it so reminds me of getting sucked in to pfal...
People wouldn`t contact this company and say...hey let me give you a hundred bucks a month to hold for me in case I die....and if I do this every month for 15 years....I can get it back someday........naw you are invited to lunch or dinner with this friend n before you know it....you have walked away with a policy you don`t need and cant afford....n she`s so good... a year later she invites you to lunch...have you learned? oh hell no....I`d be delighted to get away for lunch....n you walk away with insurance policies on your damn kids....
I think she is completely sold out...totally believes what she does...but me? I bought a whole lot of crap I didn`t want and don`t need.
But hey...she`s innocent right? Because it`s new york life that is behind her...they are the ones pocketing all the money....so she`s really just prostituting for the insurance co.
Does this make ANY sense in regards to how I feel about my participation and the folks who were so nice to me?
I feel like a whore....
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Dot Matrix
She doesn't sound innocent
But did you sell something to someone YOU KNEW would hurt them?
Or at the time did you think you were doing a loving thing?
I think a lot of life is what motivates us.
If you got a bunch of people in TWI after you knew it was going to hurt them, then find them and apologize. If you gave them "Christ" from a place of love and compassion then I think at that point - in that situation - you were working for God.
But that is JMO..
If I sell acar that runs well and it breaks down a month later and I sold it "as is" I am not responsible. If I find out my car has serious problems and I hide those problems and deceitfully present the car as running well... and it breaks down a month later then I feel I am responsible.
Just depends on how you sold the car.
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rascal
That is what I would like to think also dot, I really would...but was I really bringing them to *christ* if it was their introduction to into hell?
How clever is that? Use God`s name and scriptures to ensare victims for satan.
Was I really so harmless in my service to God, when I was procuring people and their resources for consumption by wolves in sheeps clothing? Or was I serving Satan...and agent of darkness...although unbeknownst to me...People throughout history have done horrible horrible things in the name of God and in his service....but who has really been served....I am sure that the people murdering in allah`s name today have hearts and motives every bit as pure as mine...does that excuse them or make them basically *good* though misdirected?
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rascal
That is a good point Dott, I am not trying to be argumentative ...I am simply trying to understand ... I don`t ever want to wake up on the wrong side of the fence again...
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Galen
rascal:
"It`s like this friend I know..."
"I think she is completely sold out...totally believes what she does..."
"But hey...she`s innocent right? Because it`s new york life that is behind her...they are the ones pocketing all the money....so she`s really just prostituting for the insurance co."
Each man is innocent in his own eyes.
Over the years, I have many times had long discussions with insurance conmen. I was blessed once when a friend in college photo-copied a passage from the California State penal code, it was the part saying that gambling is illegal. It had to describe gambling and define it. For every inch of paragragh trying to describe gambling, there was yet another paragragh saying that if it is done by an 'insurance' company it is legal.
Making a wager based on chance, wherein the 'house' is using statistics to hedge their bet and give them an advantage.
"I feel like a whore...."
No you are not.
What about a police man who chases 'crooks' for doing something that the policemen himself knows should not be illegal. But when it all goes to court, the 'crook' will spend years in prison. Lawyers do it.
Many of us prostitute ourselves out, against our own beleifs, and in violation of what we know to be right.
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rascal
The more I think about it, the more apropriate my analogy strikes me....My friend...every month NYL sends out *bonuses* ...get so many knew policies...get 500 bucks extra....get so many the next month and it will be 900 bucks...etc...miss a month and you are back at fround zero....so she is constantly under pressure to bring in fresh *meat*....
Reminds me of the tc and leaders meetings...pressure to have a class...how many students your twig needed to have in the class...by what date...the pressure was enormous...and I was *motivated* to be all that much more *intense* in my efforts to have our requisit number....sure I pushed...I leaned on the rest of my twig members....I worked tirelessly...did what ever was needed (never dishonest) to inspire these people into this class that they really needed anyway....I did not see myself as doing anything wrong....the people that I trusted said that this was what God needed and that it was what I needed to do to please him and to grow....but the result was the same...though these people bought a product from me...on my say so...infected by my intensity and enthusiasm...after trial and examination...most realised that it was not what they originally believed that they were buying.....many held on not wanting to believe that they had thrown away so much....(that is where I am at with my life insurance) ...many were convinced if they held on long enough and worked hard enough...that it would BECOME what they originally thought that they bought....and some just cut their losses and left.
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Tom Strange
RasCathy... I'm thinking DotDotDot and I feel the same way on this... and I think it comes down to intent and heart... before you knew of the evil at the root of the ministry OR after you started discovering the evil... it's all steps along a path... folks got hurt... but YOU didn't do the hurting... you didn't 'set them up' to be used and abused, you tried to help them find a way to attain a more than abundant life... try to rest easy knowing that you did good... and still do...
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Tom Strange
RasCathy... the difference between your friend and you in that scenario is that your friend did it for personal gain and profit... you did it out of the love in your heart for God... there's a big difference... sure, both are sales jobs... but one is for the gain of self, one is for gain of other...
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Sunesis
Refiner, don't worry, people won't take umbrage at your belief. We have discussed this a few times before on here, including whether VP or LCM were even really "born again" according to the Bible definition as we knew it.
I think there are several factors to be considered in our history. There were/are basically two generations in TWI. Many of us who you are talking to were the younger hippies. The world was crazy in the late '60s, early '70s. We were looking for a place to rest - take a breather, a time out. TWI offered that refuge for many people and a promise to know God.
The Hare Krishna used to come to my high school in NY. I was definitely searching for something spiritual. I loved those guys. They invited me to their temple in Brooklyn. I was 15, my mom said I could go, but none of my friends wanted to go with me. Within days, my best friend told me about the Way and took me to a fellowship in Rye. So, with me, yes, it would have been whoever got to me first. If I had gone to Brooklyn, I would have been a die hard Hare Krishna convert.
But, I also believe in those days there was a great spiritual revival of our generation. There was a wonderful thread here once on the early days, how incredible it was, how God moved - maybe someone could bring it up, you really should read it, I think it would give you some wonderful insight. This was when there was no governing body, the Way leadership wasn't really in place, and we were young, free, and on our own, and we did see God work and people delivered. Not just TWI, but other groups of Christians around the country experienced the same thing. I have never seen a revival like it since.
Then - clamp down, VPW overthrew the NY and California hippie leadership and claimed it for himself. Over time, freedom is lost, we see less and less of God's working. Its a long story.
I also, when I left found some great books on the history or certain groups and realized VP was in it for the money. He was a member of what were called the "Tulsa Renegade Pastors" after WWII. As the nation prospered, these men all decided they would make more money if they left their churches and all started their own ministries. VP, after years of looking for a product to sell, found BG's class and coopted it as his own and taught it to us as PFAL.
Dot nailed in on this and another thread. We were actually the fruit of another, Godly man's minstry, which VP corrupted. I too had always wondered how we saw great results when VP was a moody, sob in private. Dot's insight helped me piece that together.
I believe VP no more walked with God than Stalin or Hitler did. But he had a product and played the role and made his money. But, it was the truth in the product and the wonderful people who were involved in the ministry that made it alive and vibrant those early years. Many stayed hoping they could make it that way again.
I enjoy your opinions Refiner, especially from someone looking in. Its interesting to me to see how we are viewed from the "outside." Please feel free to give your opinions.
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Tom Strange
Refiner, don't know if you want to go into it this deep... but Sunesis' post made me think of this book: 'The House of Acts', here's what Amazon had...
It's about some of the West Coast Jesus folks that veepee subsequently hijacked... just a thought...
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imbus
Dot,
Thanks again for putting words to concepts. You do it well. The 2 ministries under one roof speaks volumes. Until I went into the corpes I experianced and lived the B.J Lenords interpretaion of the BiBle. Being at H.Q, I experianced V.P and his gangs interpetation.
Some of V.Ps influence would find its way, on occasion, to my reality as a WOW or TC but...THANK GOD it was minimal and harmless. It was being under the same roof so to speak(H.Qs) that created huge painful problems.
Dot keep speaking your truth it makes a HE11 of a lot of sence.
:D-->
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