Whoever gets there first did NOT make the sale with me AT ALL.
I went seeking Jesus Christ and the power thereof. I checked out the Lutherans with their anemic singing and cardboard cutout pew filling Christian lives.
I went to the Catholic Church and lay before the alter and begged God for help. I spoke to the black caped nuns who had me sprinkle holy water on the archway of my door -- this did NOTHING.
I checked out the "Jesus groups"
Then one woman told my friend you have a girl with long brown hair who is praying for deliverance....
I went to her and for a period her "group" was very helpful in my steps to find Jesus.
But when she told me my husband had sold out to Satan and could not be saved - I moved on. I had enough sense to leave when I thought something was not right.
I then checked out the Methodists with a girl who invited me along, the baptists with my neighbors, the Pentecostals in Parksburg Penna. and they were just fine until I heard a "prophesy" which said, "I speak not through this filthy rag to glorify men but to glorify God...." I thought a loving God would NOT speak that way so I never went back there.
I needed to know God.... As I had seen evil and knew if the dark side had power the LIGHT side would have more power and it would not cost the same price as the power the dark side offered.
So, a miracle did happen.
And perhaps what makes our experience different than other cults is our GUY stole a class developed by a man who really did love God and REALLY did want to help people. So that stolen "class" really had heart in it, but was stolen by a man I believe had no heart. I believe he wanted to be "rich, powerful, famous and unaccountable" for that which he did.
So, to hear that Jesus loved you and that God would never leave you or forsake you were strong REALities.
In my area we DID see the goodness of God. But as one drew closer to the apparent "source" (the man teaching the class --- but not responsible for it as it was stolen) then one could see the badness of the devil and the initial good things evaporated for "the man" who presented the class was NOT working for God.
But the originator of "the class" was.
It is an additional twist.
To me it is apparent with the Mormons either you believe John Smith found gold plates or you didn't. With the Jehovah witnesses they were immediately pushy and pushed their brand of doom.
With TWI they (back in the early 70's and depending on where you were the circa may vary)
These people were fun and light. They sang their hearts out to God and brought a positive message of Love. They were refreshing as was what they spoke.
I was witnessed to by Jehovah Witnesses (and no offense) but was turned off immediately by their message of deprivation -- give up this or that and God will love you -- Give up birthday gifts and recognition and God some how blessed you for it. Or that we were in the end times and only 144,000 people would now be saved... I figured that number had already been met... And I did not stand a chance.
The Moonies, I never went near because I was not about to cut my hair and they had NO fashion sense.( :)-->)
I have been reading your stuff for awhile now -- and frankly, to explain what we went through is hard enough to share with each other let alone someone NEVER in.
I am not saying we were special. I am saying the trick was different because the actual "foundation" came from a place of love, developed by a man named BG Leonard who did love God and stolen by a man who loved himself. I think it was more confusing and less detectable initially.
So, I disagree, I liked what I heard. I needed to know God loved me WHERE I WAS AT. I needed to understand that Jesus was a personal saviour and I still believe it today -- because it was a truth -- Not because the WAY was truthful.
It was at a time of "revival" as the country had big flowers on "vans" and Jesus loves you bumpers on Volkswagen bugs.
The Monkees, Herman’s Hermits and Leslie Gore were replaced by Iron Butterfly, Eric Clapton, and Bad Finger. The world must have been off its axis for kids who wore matching sweaters and skirts suddenly threw away their bras, wore trippin’ glasses, leather virgin bands, and moccasins.
We were lost in some king of upheaval and I think many of us were not really sure what the hoopla was. For some it was the Viet Nam war and for others it was parental control and the introduction of the drug culture.
As one writer put it “They were the antidote within the disease. The dichotomy of poetry and turbulence these were the 60’s and early 70’s.”
For me it was the beginning of my recognition that I was lost. It was a time of I was begging God to answer my questions, to deliver me and to heal my heart. I went searching in all those conventional places I listed in my previous post.
AND
I still believe what initially happened to me with TWI was FROM GOD. A friend of mine named Joe and I were looking for spiritual enlightenment and we were searching. One night there was a very odd man who told us (Joe and me and two friends) about God. As he spoke the room lit up with an artificial light and he began to speak but it was no longer him speaking.
This “voice” told us that we were the reincarnated Arc and angels and Apostle Paul and Peter.
For a period of time we believed that “voice” who told us that Jesus had failed and the daughter of God was coming. We were “preaching” this “new” message.
In the meantime a young singer named “Eddie” (from TWI) was on his way to meet a guy name “Paul” to get into music in California. As this young man traveled with his wife he HEARD God tell him to go back to the town he just left. He was told some people there need to hear the truth and get delivered. Eddie turned the car around and went back home to find Joe (a stranger at the time) teaching this weird doctrine.
Eddie approached him and told him that was not possible, Jesus did not fail and there was NOT going to be a daughter of God to redeem man and pulled out his pocket Bible.
“Let me show you some things”
Then Eddie shared with Joe that God loved him, answers were not arbitrary and there was power in the Word of God. Joe took a class called “Power for Abundant Living”. Then, Joe convinced me I needed it. And frankly, I did need it. The voice we heard and the odd light which surrounded the man who was speaking with this "voice" was a DEVIL spirit. And we had been to so many churches "seeking God" we were targeted by Satan and that which we saw was supernatural - the angel of light -- the trick delivered to destroy us.
My involvement with “Twig” (in home fellowships) was wonderful. I was never more happy or fulfilled. I prayed for everyone all the time and my home was open to people who needed to learn about the love of Christ. I did SEE miracles. I did receive “direction” I would not have been able to know any other way except God and I was so joyous.
Then, I left my home state to live in a Way home and then enter the Way corps. And I learned the closer one got to VPW the weirder, meaner and more self-serving people and policies became. The ministry I saw in the corps at all four campuses was in complete contrast to the loving tender twig fellowships I had been involved with back home. It was a different as darkness and light. The love was fraudulent from most of the people in charge and was always presented in a way where “they were just trying to see you grow.” Then, whatever the instruction was-- it was self-serving.
(Removed reference letter that was here, return to current post)
I believe that each place I went may have had a piece of the pie— and TWI had (a stolen piece yes) a bigger piece until, as I said, one found VPW and saw he was not godly… Then, one has to separate things. I think VPW was evil but I think the class he stole was from a good minister…
Dot, thank you sweetie. I agree with all of your points and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. How did you ever get over that kind of abuse? And, yes, we did get fed even if it was through a polluted source.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Rascal, I'm not saying there were no good churches out there. So, I'll modify what I said to say that there were none reaching out to me and all of the ones I visited looking for the answers, weren't teaching or showing me the love of Jesus. Yes, the way people did at first.
Refiner, how can you say all these groups are from the devil if you don't recognize the Bible? PLease explain. I'm not disagreeing with what you said because the fruit that many of us are still dealing with was BAD FRUIT. And the Bible does say that's how you know them.
Paw, forgive me for being dense, but I didn't catch your meaning. Could you please elaborate?
quote: Whoever gets there first did NOT make the sale with me AT ALL.
Dot -- I think it was I who made that statement, not Refiner. I did not mean to imply that just any group would do when one is/was looking, since looking involves choosing, and objectively evaluating those choices.
Some will obviously grab for the first "life-line" thrown to them, yet there are others who will look for the "life-line" that won't break, and choose that one instead.
Sounds like you did the latter. What an awesome post! Thank you.
Perhaps this will help you some of us have grown through the years letting go of the idea VPW was a "man of God" some have not. But I think these spots will show you what I mentioned about VPW and BG Leonard.
Perhaps you will see growth and people who choose to stand still. But it may fill in a little background for you. (and it may just give you a headache)
There were times I struggled with "was what came my way" ALL from Satan? I mean was TWI the counterfiet to prevent us from finding BG Leonard's class? And I do wonder....
But when I have thought that way I have been very depressed because that would mean I asked God for his heart and all he sent was empty churches, a devil spirit and a cult -- Then I would have to believe there was no God.
But I KNOW there is one, so I have to go through and figure out what part was him...
And even if THE WAY was the counterfiet ministry designed AGAIN to steer me for God, at least I got to hear the teachings of a good man who loved God because his class was stolen and presented by a creep. So, again I credit God for the good.
I am NOT thankful that VPW is a class jacking thief, or a pervert or anything. Just that I got to hear Leonard's class even though it was from a pathetic broken down creep like VPW-
A year or two prior to "finding" TWI, I was on a personal quest for "The Truth" I had become disillusioned with the Catholic church and wanted God to lead me to the truth.
Suddenly TWI comes into my path. I "assumed" that this was God's answer to my prayer. It wasn't. God had yet to answer my prayer.
I won't try to figure out who put it into my path, but the Church Lady was right!!!
If you ask God for bread would he give you a stone?
:)-->
Well, then no church anywhere is from God because they all have some stones. You have to take the bread then leave apparently. :)-->
I asked -- I finally got a piece of bread and the baker in the shop was a fraud.
So, my understanding of God came in pieces of bread here and there -- I have not found anyone offering the whole and the only loaf.
Do not get me wrong TWI is evil and I believe Vic was. I give HIM no credit.
It is the confusion of the stolen class and the subsequent fellowships. The goodness that was in it did not come from TWI but from a different source. I credit that source.
Paw, have you found your answers?
I am still looking -- sometimes I hear things via Joyce Myer, sometimes people here.
Seriously though, I am seeing it unraveled slowly. It isn't a one word answer. It changes and evolves and becomes clearer as time goes on and as I shed that which bound me up.
quote: remember that thing in the bible, if you ask for bread, will he give you a stone ?
Yea -- I remember that. The "Orientalism" about how bread was cooked on stones, and soon the stones took on the appearance of bread, since they were flat, round, and saturated with whatever it took to cook the bread.
The "Orientalism" continued to show how God was able to tell the difference between the two, and if you asked for one, He wouldn't give you the other.
Not completely sure how this is applicable to this question, but I am thinking that we got what we needed, when we needed it. Again -- I'll say we should of been looking for the "exit" door sooner than we did, because bread soon "fossilizes" and begins to look like the stone it was cooked on.
And I, for one, wasn't smart enough to tell the difference in time. :(-->
quote:If these were genuine answers people received (which I believe for them it was, like for me it was) then I would like to pose Exxie's question:
"i think what bothers me is how could god answer a prayer of mine that would ultimately cause me so much pain ?"
Okay Dot & anyone else who believes that TWI was an answer to prayer: what about ExC's question? If it was indeed an answer to prayer, was God that limited? The creator of the heavens and the earth is in a such a straitjacket that he has to answer a heartfelt prayer by "blessing" the one who prays with a stolen class presented by a sexual predator...you get the point I'm sure.
The best that was available? If God can send people into remote national park camping areas, turn musicians around, whatever else, you mean he couldn't have directed us all to Calgary?
And for those of us who "checked out" multiple churches and got witnessed to by various groups before finding TWI, why did God put us through all that? He couldn't skip right to the prize?
On the subject of whether TWI was an answer to prayer, we'll have to agree to disagree: to some of you it definitely was an answer to prayer, to me it seems more like either "first one makes the sale" like Refiner said, or a "shopping around" until something seemed right.
Still seems odd that God would answer a prayer with something that turned out to be so hurtful.
Regarding the bread and the stone analogy: That's a false dilemma - the third choice is that you were given neither bread nor a stone, that TWI was not an answer to prayer. Just because you ask for something, doesn't mean that you get it.
Now a person asked how it could be that I declare that I don’t believe in Gods existence and then declare that I think Church organizations are “Satan manifesting as light”. Thus being in contradiction.
Well, the answer is I didn’t say that.
I said “If anything”, in other words, if there IS a God force, then in my opinion those churches are tools of the devil.
So I hope that clears that one up. If there is a devil and I am forced to choose whether the JWitnesses are his tool or Gods tool, well I say it would have to be the former in my opinion.
I don’t know whether theres a God or not , I haven’t seen Him.
I haven’t seen the devil either, though it occurs to me that there are some rotten churches around, and if the devil does exist, well he is likely sat at the top of their feeding chain.
Neither did I say that ALL churches are Satan in disguise. I would be a fool if I stated that, because I haven’t attended them all. I don’t know whether they are all tools of Deception or not. I only say that I reckon just about every one that Ive attended is a rotten mind manipulating cult in some way or other.
Neither did I say that every single person who was ever recruited into a church was recruited during a period of “crisis in their lives”. I merely observed ( and there is a wealth of technical information to back my claim) that very frequently people ARE recruited into cults or churches during a personal crisis in their life.
Across the board I hope I am not interpreted as making absolute declarations about ANYTHING at all. Because I know the complete answers to virtually nothing. I leave the uttering of absolutist statements to the VPWs of the world.
Now Exy observed that she is glad that I am here. And I am glad too. Ive taken a real partiality to Exy and a whole lot of other people here, including Dmiller and many others. It is good that people here are willing to challenge you on everything you say and demand an explanation.
Thanks for your letter and posting that Post. I think that whole thread and many others should be posted every year for all of the newbies to see that hook up with GS. It is a wealth of insite and is well written. I have the uttmost respect for your courage and perseverance to make others informed of VPs antics. Thank You .
TWI was my 3rd. and last cult. I have a bumper sticker on my car that reads," God is to big for any one religion". Also..."Namaste"
The Aboriginies are taught at a young age that they are spirit beings inhabiting human bodies. That there whole existance is on a spiritual plane rather in the phisical. In my quest for truth, I find that the awarness of a spiritual presence, "God" is more confirmed from within than from without. TWI taught that to be in the will of God you have to adhere to a the Bible. "The word of God is the will of God". Little has been taught on, it is not in the doing but in the being. Being intune with your spiritual core self which is very sensitive to God.
Now I say this to make a point. You know what spiritually resinates and what doesn't. Unfortunatly we come to spirituality with a lot of baggage. It makes it very difficult to identify that "small still voice". It's even more difficult to idenify your spiritual core self, if you are constintly being accountable to an interpetation of a book that might be unhealthy. And that book is outside of yourself.
Like the Aborigines I belive we have been connected to "GOD" for more years than we know. We just never were taught about our connectedness. So rater then looking outside of youself for "God realities" it might be an adventure to look within for what you really KNOW to be true. Ask the Creator to validate you from within. See what happens.
I had many "GOD" realities while I was in TWI. But thank goodness it did not end there. TWI stifled my core self which limited my awareness of God in my life.
"God is not limited to any one religion" Thank goodness! :D-->
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dmiller
Socks ---
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
This is gonna take forever to ponder, and get the true significance of it all!
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Dot Matrix
Refiner:
Think what you will but-
I absolutely disagree.
Whoever gets there first did NOT make the sale with me AT ALL.
I went seeking Jesus Christ and the power thereof. I checked out the Lutherans with their anemic singing and cardboard cutout pew filling Christian lives.
I went to the Catholic Church and lay before the alter and begged God for help. I spoke to the black caped nuns who had me sprinkle holy water on the archway of my door -- this did NOTHING.
I checked out the "Jesus groups"
Then one woman told my friend you have a girl with long brown hair who is praying for deliverance....
I went to her and for a period her "group" was very helpful in my steps to find Jesus.
But when she told me my husband had sold out to Satan and could not be saved - I moved on. I had enough sense to leave when I thought something was not right.
I then checked out the Methodists with a girl who invited me along, the baptists with my neighbors, the Pentecostals in Parksburg Penna. and they were just fine until I heard a "prophesy" which said, "I speak not through this filthy rag to glorify men but to glorify God...." I thought a loving God would NOT speak that way so I never went back there.
I needed to know God.... As I had seen evil and knew if the dark side had power the LIGHT side would have more power and it would not cost the same price as the power the dark side offered.
So, a miracle did happen.
And perhaps what makes our experience different than other cults is our GUY stole a class developed by a man who really did love God and REALLY did want to help people. So that stolen "class" really had heart in it, but was stolen by a man I believe had no heart. I believe he wanted to be "rich, powerful, famous and unaccountable" for that which he did.
So, to hear that Jesus loved you and that God would never leave you or forsake you were strong REALities.
In my area we DID see the goodness of God. But as one drew closer to the apparent "source" (the man teaching the class --- but not responsible for it as it was stolen) then one could see the badness of the devil and the initial good things evaporated for "the man" who presented the class was NOT working for God.
But the originator of "the class" was.
It is an additional twist.
To me it is apparent with the Mormons either you believe John Smith found gold plates or you didn't. With the Jehovah witnesses they were immediately pushy and pushed their brand of doom.
With TWI they (back in the early 70's and depending on where you were the circa may vary)
These people were fun and light. They sang their hearts out to God and brought a positive message of Love. They were refreshing as was what they spoke.
I was witnessed to by Jehovah Witnesses (and no offense) but was turned off immediately by their message of deprivation -- give up this or that and God will love you -- Give up birthday gifts and recognition and God some how blessed you for it. Or that we were in the end times and only 144,000 people would now be saved... I figured that number had already been met... And I did not stand a chance.
The Moonies, I never went near because I was not about to cut my hair and they had NO fashion sense.(
:)-->)
I have been reading your stuff for awhile now -- and frankly, to explain what we went through is hard enough to share with each other let alone someone NEVER in.
I am not saying we were special. I am saying the trick was different because the actual "foundation" came from a place of love, developed by a man named BG Leonard who did love God and stolen by a man who loved himself. I think it was more confusing and less detectable initially.
So, I disagree, I liked what I heard. I needed to know God loved me WHERE I WAS AT. I needed to understand that Jesus was a personal saviour and I still believe it today -- because it was a truth -- Not because the WAY was truthful.
There in lies the trap.
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Dot Matrix
Refiner
For me:
It was at a time of "revival" as the country had big flowers on "vans" and Jesus loves you bumpers on Volkswagen bugs.
The Monkees, Herman’s Hermits and Leslie Gore were replaced by Iron Butterfly, Eric Clapton, and Bad Finger. The world must have been off its axis for kids who wore matching sweaters and skirts suddenly threw away their bras, wore trippin’ glasses, leather virgin bands, and moccasins.
We were lost in some king of upheaval and I think many of us were not really sure what the hoopla was. For some it was the Viet Nam war and for others it was parental control and the introduction of the drug culture.
As one writer put it “They were the antidote within the disease. The dichotomy of poetry and turbulence these were the 60’s and early 70’s.”
For me it was the beginning of my recognition that I was lost. It was a time of I was begging God to answer my questions, to deliver me and to heal my heart. I went searching in all those conventional places I listed in my previous post.
AND
I still believe what initially happened to me with TWI was FROM GOD. A friend of mine named Joe and I were looking for spiritual enlightenment and we were searching. One night there was a very odd man who told us (Joe and me and two friends) about God. As he spoke the room lit up with an artificial light and he began to speak but it was no longer him speaking.
This “voice” told us that we were the reincarnated Arc and angels and Apostle Paul and Peter.
For a period of time we believed that “voice” who told us that Jesus had failed and the daughter of God was coming. We were “preaching” this “new” message.
In the meantime a young singer named “Eddie” (from TWI) was on his way to meet a guy name “Paul” to get into music in California. As this young man traveled with his wife he HEARD God tell him to go back to the town he just left. He was told some people there need to hear the truth and get delivered. Eddie turned the car around and went back home to find Joe (a stranger at the time) teaching this weird doctrine.
Eddie approached him and told him that was not possible, Jesus did not fail and there was NOT going to be a daughter of God to redeem man and pulled out his pocket Bible.
“Let me show you some things”
Then Eddie shared with Joe that God loved him, answers were not arbitrary and there was power in the Word of God. Joe took a class called “Power for Abundant Living”. Then, Joe convinced me I needed it. And frankly, I did need it. The voice we heard and the odd light which surrounded the man who was speaking with this "voice" was a DEVIL spirit. And we had been to so many churches "seeking God" we were targeted by Satan and that which we saw was supernatural - the angel of light -- the trick delivered to destroy us.
My involvement with “Twig” (in home fellowships) was wonderful. I was never more happy or fulfilled. I prayed for everyone all the time and my home was open to people who needed to learn about the love of Christ. I did SEE miracles. I did receive “direction” I would not have been able to know any other way except God and I was so joyous.
Then, I left my home state to live in a Way home and then enter the Way corps. And I learned the closer one got to VPW the weirder, meaner and more self-serving people and policies became. The ministry I saw in the corps at all four campuses was in complete contrast to the loving tender twig fellowships I had been involved with back home. It was a different as darkness and light. The love was fraudulent from most of the people in charge and was always presented in a way where “they were just trying to see you grow.” Then, whatever the instruction was-- it was self-serving.
(Removed reference letter that was here, return to current post)
I believe that each place I went may have had a piece of the pie— and TWI had (a stolen piece yes) a bigger piece until, as I said, one found VPW and saw he was not godly… Then, one has to separate things. I think VPW was evil but I think the class he stole was from a good minister…
Talk about Satan trying to confuse people....
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waterbuffalo
Dot, thank you sweetie. I agree with all of your points and I mean that from the bottom of my heart. How did you ever get over that kind of abuse? And, yes, we did get fed even if it was through a polluted source.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Rascal, I'm not saying there were no good churches out there. So, I'll modify what I said to say that there were none reaching out to me and all of the ones I visited looking for the answers, weren't teaching or showing me the love of Jesus. Yes, the way people did at first.
Refiner, how can you say all these groups are from the devil if you don't recognize the Bible? PLease explain. I'm not disagreeing with what you said because the fruit that many of us are still dealing with was BAD FRUIT. And the Bible does say that's how you know them.
Paw, forgive me for being dense, but I didn't catch your meaning. Could you please elaborate?
Thanks all,
WB
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Dot Matrix
I looked into the churches and they were serving up slop at the time.
maybe the "whole church if God" was remiss in truly holding forth "the love of God" as I did not get answers there either.
We needed what we heard at the time we needed it -- then when we needed to leave -- we stayed TOO LONG.
By staying, I passed the goodness felt via the class developed by Leonard and entered into the realm of VPW which to me was EVIL.
Maybe, if I had LEFT when I should have I would have continued my search and found a healthy church.
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dmiller
Dot -- I think it was I who made that statement, not Refiner. I did not mean to imply that just any group would do when one is/was looking, since looking involves choosing, and objectively evaluating those choices.
Some will obviously grab for the first "life-line" thrown to them, yet there are others who will look for the "life-line" that won't break, and choose that one instead.
Sounds like you did the latter. What an awesome post! Thank you.
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Dot Matrix
He said
"It is only a matter of who gets to them first....JWs, TWI, or the Reverand Sun Myung Moon."
Then you agree by mentioning it as getting there first....sale...
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Dot Matrix
Refiner
Perhaps this will help you some of us have grown through the years letting go of the idea VPW was a "man of God" some have not. But I think these spots will show you what I mentioned about VPW and BG Leonard.
Perhaps you will see growth and people who choose to stand still. But it may fill in a little background for you. (and it may just give you a headache)
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...4352#8286054352
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...3584#7046043584
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...04702#752104702
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...1232#1726021232
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...6232#3586066232
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...6035#5916096035
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...08414#886608414
http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=9...6061#8106076061
There were times I struggled with "was what came my way" ALL from Satan? I mean was TWI the counterfiet to prevent us from finding BG Leonard's class? And I do wonder....
But when I have thought that way I have been very depressed because that would mean I asked God for his heart and all he sent was empty churches, a devil spirit and a cult -- Then I would have to believe there was no God.
But I KNOW there is one, so I have to go through and figure out what part was him...
And even if THE WAY was the counterfiet ministry designed AGAIN to steer me for God, at least I got to hear the teachings of a good man who loved God because his class was stolen and presented by a creep. So, again I credit God for the good.
I am NOT thankful that VPW is a class jacking thief, or a pervert or anything. Just that I got to hear Leonard's class even though it was from a pathetic broken down creep like VPW-
I just wish I took it and kept looking.
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dmiller
Yep. You are right. Dot -- you are an awesome person. I read your story. What a travesty. I had no idea.
:(-->
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excathedra
thank you dear A la for starting this thread from my question. had i started it, it might be on page 22 by now
;)-->
--
it's all good, the discussion
--
as one whose soul was robbed, broken, stolen, whateveryouwannnacallit, i have always wondered this very thing deep down--
aside - i'm truly thankful you're here refiner
--
paw tell me what you meant, thanks
ps. i think you're all wonderful
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excathedra
major choo choo
i'm kinda mad at god how things worked out
remember that thing in the bible, if you ask for bread, will he give you a stone ?
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pawtucket
A year or two prior to "finding" TWI, I was on a personal quest for "The Truth" I had become disillusioned with the Catholic church and wanted God to lead me to the truth.
Suddenly TWI comes into my path. I "assumed" that this was God's answer to my prayer. It wasn't. God had yet to answer my prayer.
I won't try to figure out who put it into my path, but the Church Lady was right!!!
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excathedra
has god answered your prayer yet ?
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Dot Matrix
If you ask God for bread would he give you a stone?
Well, then no church anywhere is from God because they all have some stones. You have to take the bread then leave apparently.
:)-->
I asked -- I finally got a piece of bread and the baker in the shop was a fraud.
So, my understanding of God came in pieces of bread here and there -- I have not found anyone offering the whole and the only loaf.
Do not get me wrong TWI is evil and I believe Vic was. I give HIM no credit.
It is the confusion of the stolen class and the subsequent fellowships. The goodness that was in it did not come from TWI but from a different source. I credit that source.
Paw, have you found your answers?
I am still looking -- sometimes I hear things via Joyce Myer, sometimes people here.
I have not found "a place"
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pawtucket
NO Ex,
you refuse to meet me for coffee.
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pawtucket
Seriously though, I am seeing it unraveled slowly. It isn't a one word answer. It changes and evolves and becomes clearer as time goes on and as I shed that which bound me up.
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Dot Matrix
...
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dmiller
Yea -- I remember that. The "Orientalism" about how bread was cooked on stones, and soon the stones took on the appearance of bread, since they were flat, round, and saturated with whatever it took to cook the bread.
The "Orientalism" continued to show how God was able to tell the difference between the two, and if you asked for one, He wouldn't give you the other.
Not completely sure how this is applicable to this question, but I am thinking that we got what we needed, when we needed it. Again -- I'll say we should of been looking for the "exit" door sooner than we did, because bread soon "fossilizes" and begins to look like the stone it was cooked on.
And I, for one, wasn't smart enough to tell the difference in time.
:(-->
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Oakspear
The best that was available? If God can send people into remote national park camping areas, turn musicians around, whatever else, you mean he couldn't have directed us all to Calgary?
And for those of us who "checked out" multiple churches and got witnessed to by various groups before finding TWI, why did God put us through all that? He couldn't skip right to the prize?
On the subject of whether TWI was an answer to prayer, we'll have to agree to disagree: to some of you it definitely was an answer to prayer, to me it seems more like either "first one makes the sale" like Refiner said, or a "shopping around" until something seemed right.
Still seems odd that God would answer a prayer with something that turned out to be so hurtful.
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Oakspear
Regarding the bread and the stone analogy: That's a false dilemma - the third choice is that you were given neither bread nor a stone, that TWI was not an answer to prayer. Just because you ask for something, doesn't mean that you get it.
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pawtucket
For those of you Woodstock fans, TWI was the brown acid.
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Refiner
Sneaks in a post from the computer at work…
Now a person asked how it could be that I declare that I don’t believe in Gods existence and then declare that I think Church organizations are “Satan manifesting as light”. Thus being in contradiction.
Well, the answer is I didn’t say that.
I said “If anything”, in other words, if there IS a God force, then in my opinion those churches are tools of the devil.
So I hope that clears that one up. If there is a devil and I am forced to choose whether the JWitnesses are his tool or Gods tool, well I say it would have to be the former in my opinion.
I don’t know whether theres a God or not , I haven’t seen Him.
I haven’t seen the devil either, though it occurs to me that there are some rotten churches around, and if the devil does exist, well he is likely sat at the top of their feeding chain.
Neither did I say that ALL churches are Satan in disguise. I would be a fool if I stated that, because I haven’t attended them all. I don’t know whether they are all tools of Deception or not. I only say that I reckon just about every one that Ive attended is a rotten mind manipulating cult in some way or other.
Neither did I say that every single person who was ever recruited into a church was recruited during a period of “crisis in their lives”. I merely observed ( and there is a wealth of technical information to back my claim) that very frequently people ARE recruited into cults or churches during a personal crisis in their life.
Across the board I hope I am not interpreted as making absolute declarations about ANYTHING at all. Because I know the complete answers to virtually nothing. I leave the uttering of absolutist statements to the VPWs of the world.
Now Exy observed that she is glad that I am here. And I am glad too. Ive taken a real partiality to Exy and a whole lot of other people here, including Dmiller and many others. It is good that people here are willing to challenge you on everything you say and demand an explanation.
Peace.
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pawtucket
Refiner,
Exy is a good egg. Problem is she doesn't post very much.
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imbus
Dot Matrix,
Thanks for your letter and posting that Post. I think that whole thread and many others should be posted every year for all of the newbies to see that hook up with GS. It is a wealth of insite and is well written. I have the uttmost respect for your courage and perseverance to make others informed of VPs antics. Thank You .
TWI was my 3rd. and last cult. I have a bumper sticker on my car that reads," God is to big for any one religion". Also..."Namaste"
The Aboriginies are taught at a young age that they are spirit beings inhabiting human bodies. That there whole existance is on a spiritual plane rather in the phisical. In my quest for truth, I find that the awarness of a spiritual presence, "God" is more confirmed from within than from without. TWI taught that to be in the will of God you have to adhere to a the Bible. "The word of God is the will of God". Little has been taught on, it is not in the doing but in the being. Being intune with your spiritual core self which is very sensitive to God.
Now I say this to make a point. You know what spiritually resinates and what doesn't. Unfortunatly we come to spirituality with a lot of baggage. It makes it very difficult to identify that "small still voice". It's even more difficult to idenify your spiritual core self, if you are constintly being accountable to an interpetation of a book that might be unhealthy. And that book is outside of yourself.
Like the Aborigines I belive we have been connected to "GOD" for more years than we know. We just never were taught about our connectedness. So rater then looking outside of youself for "God realities" it might be an adventure to look within for what you really KNOW to be true. Ask the Creator to validate you from within. See what happens.
I had many "GOD" realities while I was in TWI. But thank goodness it did not end there. TWI stifled my core self which limited my awareness of God in my life.
"God is not limited to any one religion" Thank goodness!
:D-->
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