Maybe it's like when you want some dried fruit so you buy a bag of Fruit 'n' Nuts. The dried peaches, apricots and bananas are in there-you get the fruit, but you still have to pick out the nuts. :)-->
I'm just exploring this right now, but could it be that the way was the best God had at that moment? This is something I've pondered for a while because the same thing happened to me. I cried out one day and the next day ran into someone who told me about the class which was REALLY the REAL reason I took it...because I really believed it was my answer from God.
And, then, the person "God" used spoke EXACTLY the only words that could have induced me to take it, which were, "I'm not saying you should take it, but it (the class) sure answered all of MY questions." I'm not sure, at that point, if there was anything anyone could have said to have talked me OUT of it.
Can't wait to read other responses from those much wiser than myself on this subject.
If God did not come along when he did I would be dead.
I believe I needed to know BG Leonard's principals he uncovered and BG was not marketing his class...
So, I got the (stolen version) class and it did set me free.
BUT
Then, when I knew it was time to leave I stayed TOO LONG.
So, I feel that I took BG Leonard's class and the wonderful truths of God were there enough to keep me from death.
The original branch in my area saw wonderful things as we did not yet tknow the evils of HQS nor did we know the class was stolen...
So we reaped a lot of beauty in our lives.
As I got closer to HQS and met the "theif" I saw a GREAT difference between what I had learned and lived and the MAN teaching it.
That was VERY confusing. But I have grown and I know when to leave when things turn now - for the most part.
So to me, it was like being at the beach with a wonderful surprise picnic basket. What a blessing with the cool drinks and the icy sandwich... I have great fun from the nutrition I received. But after several hours in the sun I recognize the things are "not right" but I eat them anyway, because they tasted so good BEFORE.
This time they make me very ill but I keep eating....
God was in what happened to me because the origin of the class came from a godly man, then when I met and had what the "theif man" actually produced and saw it was stinky and not right -- "I" stayed and kept eating.
That is not God's fault. It was my confusion about the goodness of the class and the badness of the teacher. I could not reconcile the two so I kept trying to get things back to the way they were but you cannot fix mayonaise once it has turned and that is kinda what I tried to do.
Had I have been anywhere else I would have left -- but the beginning -- the stolen fruits I did not know were stolen -- were presented so beautifully and filled me with strength that I stuck around "the basket" hoping to find good food again.
If you pray for a car and God gives you one and later you are driving too fast and not paying attention and get in an accident should God have never given you the car? Or did you muck up the gift?
I have pondered the very same thing for years now. I still do not understand that much but the one thing that I do believe is that God is still God no matter what has happened. His Word does not return void. ALL things DO work together for good to those that love God. Yet I know the pain and hurt that comes from having your "heart" yanked out by people that you trusted SO much that you would have died for them.
I was the product of the social/political unrest of the 60's. I attended Indiana University from 1968-72. The drug counterculture was in full swing and I was loving it. I thought we were gonna change the world,man. Not to be. We were just a bunch of drug-crazed hippies without answers or purpose. In May 1975 I came to the end of my rope. I was lonely and very unhappy.I quit my job and put everything that I owned(which was not much)in my 1971 Volkswagen and headed for the Smoky Mountains.I had no idea that what I was about to do would so dramatically forever change my life.I told "God" that I was going as far into primitive camping as I could go to be alone. Up to this point, I never had much of a relationship with God except for the occasional "fire escape".I said "God,if you are real and you can hear me right now and you really do have a purpose for my life then I need to hear from you.I do not want to live in the world as it is without knowing that you do exist and that you are truly with me.So I am going to the Smokys and will not come back unless I hear from you.I would rather die in the woods than have to go back to such a lonely world". I am not sure how long I might have held out.Things could have gotten pretty nasty.
On the 12th day in the morning I was cooking bacon over the campfire(see...things never got nasty). I was reading the bible which I had borrowed from a friend. I was particularily moved and in awe of the baptism of Jesus by John. What a powerful moment in history. I looked up to see what the noise was coming from behind me. It was a guy jogging in the woods and he came up to me and he asked: "Is that the bible you are reading?"Yes, it is",I replied."Do you understand what you are reading?"I could not believe what was happening! God,indeed, has sent his messenger,I thought. It wasnt until PFAL that I ever read Acts 8:29.You can imagine how pumped that got me.
Like you,waterbuffalo,there was NO ONE who could have kept me from taking the class. I believed with all my heart that God was in all of it.
If you are interested in talking more about this,I would be glad to. I am sure that you feel the same way: There is just too much to put it here now.
I was an easy target for blind allegiance.After all, I thought,God led me to this ministry.I was so convinced that I pointed my finger at my
father and told him that satan had blinded his eyes and thus he would not believe my words nor accept the one and only truth as pontificated by vpw.
This caused major denial,hurt,distrust and anger which would go on unresolved for years.
Well, folks, let's admit it, the churches then just weren't cutting it! Maybe God just uses whoever He can and He had His reasons for wanting us in the way. I sure did learn more there than I ever had at my hometown church.
BlueSunday, thank you. Please check your private messages.
quote: I was the product of the social/political unrest of the 60's. I attended Indiana University from 1968-72. The drug counterculture was in full swing and I was loving it. I thought we were gonna change the world,man. Not to be. We were just a bunch of drug-crazed hippies without answers or purpose.
BlueSunday -- I was there too. Did you ever hang out at "People's Park" on Kirkwood Avenue? Those were the days. Lots of discussion, music, you name it, wayyyyy past midnight!
The views expressed pertaining to the "answered prayer" are not unique to TWI. Many people joining many different sects have had the same "mystical experience". A prayer, and an immediate answer with someone knocking on the door. Or an immediate phone call.
As well, people might be wrestling with God, calling out to him when already in the sect and recieve an answer thru some mystical experience.
...."In May 1975 I came to the end of my rope. I was lonely and very unhappy.I quit my job and put everything that I owned(which was not much)in my 1971 Volkswagen and headed for the Smoky Mountains. I had no idea that what I was about to do would so dramatically forever change my life.I told "God" that I was going as far into primitive camping as I could go to be alone. Up to this point, I never had much of a relationship with God except for the occasional "fire escape".I said "God,if you are real and you can hear me right now and you really do have a purpose for my life then I need to hear from you."....
My view is that this is a classic example of a crisis conversion. Often a person will, in their search for meaning, shuttle around between extreme positions example- Christianity/ Witchcraft, and then finding no satisfaction, get into a state of desperation. Once in the desperate state, all they need is a guru to come along and they are ready for conversion.
It is only a matter of who gets to them first....JWs, TWI, or the Reverand Sun Myung Moon.
Ok, Refiner, let's explore this a bit further. The people witnessing out there are praying ALSO--to be able to share God as they know Him with someone else. They sincerely have hearts to help people.
Now, since the Bible says when two or more agree, God answers, could it be that God answers prayers (the witnesser and the witnessee agree) and not groups?
quote: since the Bible says when two or more agree, God answers, could it be that God answers prayers (the witnesser and the witnessee agree) and not groups?
Well WB, dont hold this against me, but I dont recognize the Bible so I cant honestly discuss it from a Biblical viewpoint.
Still, I think it is possible that people enter such movements as TWI so that they can learn, from experience, what the face of rottenness truly looks like. Perhaps they are allowed to enter that experience so as to be able to help, later, others avoid the same pitfalls they fell into.
For many,... they were witnessed to, approached by, talked to about TWI and the class after many years of either searching, asking, trying different churches, praying to God, crying out to God. If these were genuine answers people received (which I believe for them it was, like for me it was) then I would like to pose Exxie's question.
Does anyone have any input on this?
What if these were not genuine answers. What if there is no god? what if...
The problem is (it seems to me) that people have a belief they are comfortable with about what god does and what prayer is. They keep that belief as long as they can - even if there is no evidence to support it and even when there is evidence to the contrary. We as a species have developed a great ability to see patterns in the world around us. This helps us find food, avoid enemies and find mates. It also helps us evolve belief patterns that may not be justified by the "real world".
Dunno water buffelo....my sister never became involved with the way...and yet she managed to become a creditable christian.... and yes, she did it through a church, and her depth of understanding, her spiritual perception ...her scriptural knowldege is every bit as developed as any of ours.......n she didn`t have to put up with nearly the crap we did....I know a whole lot of wonderfull spiritual men and women who didn`t need twi to become that way.......probably just about the same proportions of spiritually aware .. sweet people as bullies that I saw in twi...
I no longer think it is right to dismiss churches or other groups or denegrate their importance.
I think many churches were doing their jobs....we just weren`t fortunate enough to run into them.
My only thought is this.......that if there really IS a God...and he really DID lead us into twi...maybe there was something necessary we needed to learn...I mean after all..I can spot a spiritual con or hypocracy a mile away now...I am also very strong now having survived merceless bullying for so long...
Or maybe we were all just young naieve dumb as-es who had no guidance and fell prey to the first con that came along ...and God had nothing to do with it ...
WB. Ive been being very careful on this site, but you force me to come clean. I hope I dont get howled down. The only God, if any, in my opinion, who operates thru organizations such as TWI , the JWs and Mormonism, is Satan.
I believe they are deception masquerading as light.
The fruit of them, fear, anger, estrangement from family, loss of wealth, etc, etc, etc, is the proof of what they really are.
quote: The views expressed pertaining to the "answered prayer" are not unique to TWI. Many people joining many different sects have had the same "mystical experience". A prayer, and an immediate answer with someone knocking on the door. Or an immediate phone call.
Refiner -- you may be a cynic, :)--> but you are right about the "uniqueness" not being relegated to one group.
Lots of "prey-ers" out there looking for those who are offering "prayers", and guess we all got caught one way or another. -->
You also pointed out the "crisis conversion", and again -- you're right. Whoever gets there first, makes the "sale". Even if an outfit turns sour, it may have been just what the person needed at that time, so the "sourness" or "rotteness" of whichever Org "got the sale", takes back-stage to the fact that they were there and effective for at least a little while.
Was that the same with you and the various groups you were in? How do you see your past involvement, and the entrance into it? Was it the same as others have said here, or different?
Was your's a "crisis conversion"? Not being nosy, just curious.
quote: WB. Ive been being very careful on this site, but you force me to come clean. I hope I dont get howled down. The only God, if any, in my opinion, who operates thru organizations such as TWI , the JWs and Mormonism, is Satan.
I believe they are deception masquerading as light.
quote: OK. Then if they are of Satan, then so are the splinters (your words, not mine).
But -- (a big but), if they change the "original doctrine" (and I was quoting Refiner), I have no problem with the "off-shoots" since they are trying to rectify matters. They could obviously fall into the same trap, ditch, whatever you want to call it.
Off-shoots aren't too bad, just make sure you look for the exit door as you enter, in case you need it handy.
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socks
Maybe it's like when you want some dried fruit so you buy a bag of Fruit 'n' Nuts. The dried peaches, apricots and bananas are in there-you get the fruit, but you still have to pick out the nuts.
:)-->
(well, I did say maybe.)
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waterbuffalo
Socks,
How profound.
I'm pondering your response.
Makes sense to me.
I'm just exploring this right now, but could it be that the way was the best God had at that moment? This is something I've pondered for a while because the same thing happened to me. I cried out one day and the next day ran into someone who told me about the class which was REALLY the REAL reason I took it...because I really believed it was my answer from God.
And, then, the person "God" used spoke EXACTLY the only words that could have induced me to take it, which were, "I'm not saying you should take it, but it (the class) sure answered all of MY questions." I'm not sure, at that point, if there was anything anyone could have said to have talked me OUT of it.
Can't wait to read other responses from those much wiser than myself on this subject.
WB
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Dot Matrix
If God did not come along when he did I would be dead.
I believe I needed to know BG Leonard's principals he uncovered and BG was not marketing his class...
So, I got the (stolen version) class and it did set me free.
BUT
Then, when I knew it was time to leave I stayed TOO LONG.
So, I feel that I took BG Leonard's class and the wonderful truths of God were there enough to keep me from death.
The original branch in my area saw wonderful things as we did not yet tknow the evils of HQS nor did we know the class was stolen...
So we reaped a lot of beauty in our lives.
As I got closer to HQS and met the "theif" I saw a GREAT difference between what I had learned and lived and the MAN teaching it.
That was VERY confusing. But I have grown and I know when to leave when things turn now - for the most part.
So to me, it was like being at the beach with a wonderful surprise picnic basket. What a blessing with the cool drinks and the icy sandwich... I have great fun from the nutrition I received. But after several hours in the sun I recognize the things are "not right" but I eat them anyway, because they tasted so good BEFORE.
This time they make me very ill but I keep eating....
God was in what happened to me because the origin of the class came from a godly man, then when I met and had what the "theif man" actually produced and saw it was stinky and not right -- "I" stayed and kept eating.
That is not God's fault. It was my confusion about the goodness of the class and the badness of the teacher. I could not reconcile the two so I kept trying to get things back to the way they were but you cannot fix mayonaise once it has turned and that is kinda what I tried to do.
Had I have been anywhere else I would have left -- but the beginning -- the stolen fruits I did not know were stolen -- were presented so beautifully and filled me with strength that I stuck around "the basket" hoping to find good food again.
If you pray for a car and God gives you one and later you are driving too fast and not paying attention and get in an accident should God have never given you the car? Or did you muck up the gift?
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dmiller
Perhaps twi was an "open door" in answer to prayer, but maybe we just didn't find the "exit door" as soon as we should have.
Just speculating. I don't know. That is a really good question.
Dot / Socks -- great analogies!
:)-->
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Oakspear
or.....
...maybe God didn't have anything to do with it.
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bluesunday
waterbuffalo,
I have pondered the very same thing for years now. I still do not understand that much but the one thing that I do believe is that God is still God no matter what has happened. His Word does not return void. ALL things DO work together for good to those that love God. Yet I know the pain and hurt that comes from having your "heart" yanked out by people that you trusted SO much that you would have died for them.
I was the product of the social/political unrest of the 60's. I attended Indiana University from 1968-72. The drug counterculture was in full swing and I was loving it. I thought we were gonna change the world,man. Not to be. We were just a bunch of drug-crazed hippies without answers or purpose. In May 1975 I came to the end of my rope. I was lonely and very unhappy.I quit my job and put everything that I owned(which was not much)in my 1971 Volkswagen and headed for the Smoky Mountains.I had no idea that what I was about to do would so dramatically forever change my life.I told "God" that I was going as far into primitive camping as I could go to be alone. Up to this point, I never had much of a relationship with God except for the occasional "fire escape".I said "God,if you are real and you can hear me right now and you really do have a purpose for my life then I need to hear from you.I do not want to live in the world as it is without knowing that you do exist and that you are truly with me.So I am going to the Smokys and will not come back unless I hear from you.I would rather die in the woods than have to go back to such a lonely world". I am not sure how long I might have held out.Things could have gotten pretty nasty.
On the 12th day in the morning I was cooking bacon over the campfire(see...things never got nasty). I was reading the bible which I had borrowed from a friend. I was particularily moved and in awe of the baptism of Jesus by John. What a powerful moment in history. I looked up to see what the noise was coming from behind me. It was a guy jogging in the woods and he came up to me and he asked: "Is that the bible you are reading?"Yes, it is",I replied."Do you understand what you are reading?"I could not believe what was happening! God,indeed, has sent his messenger,I thought. It wasnt until PFAL that I ever read Acts 8:29.You can imagine how pumped that got me.
Like you,waterbuffalo,there was NO ONE who could have kept me from taking the class. I believed with all my heart that God was in all of it.
If you are interested in talking more about this,I would be glad to. I am sure that you feel the same way: There is just too much to put it here now.
I was an easy target for blind allegiance.After all, I thought,God led me to this ministry.I was so convinced that I pointed my finger at my
father and told him that satan had blinded his eyes and thus he would not believe my words nor accept the one and only truth as pontificated by vpw.
This caused major denial,hurt,distrust and anger which would go on unresolved for years.
The story goes on.I do hope to hear from you.
bluesunday
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waterbuffalo
Well, folks, let's admit it, the churches then just weren't cutting it! Maybe God just uses whoever He can and He had His reasons for wanting us in the way. I sure did learn more there than I ever had at my hometown church.
BlueSunday, thank you. Please check your private messages.
WB
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dmiller
BlueSunday -- I was there too. Did you ever hang out at "People's Park" on Kirkwood Avenue? Those were the days. Lots of discussion, music, you name it, wayyyyy past midnight!
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Refiner
The views expressed pertaining to the "answered prayer" are not unique to TWI. Many people joining many different sects have had the same "mystical experience". A prayer, and an immediate answer with someone knocking on the door. Or an immediate phone call.
As well, people might be wrestling with God, calling out to him when already in the sect and recieve an answer thru some mystical experience.
So I think there must be another explanation.
Of course, I AM a cynic.
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Refiner
Blue Sunday writes:
...."In May 1975 I came to the end of my rope. I was lonely and very unhappy.I quit my job and put everything that I owned(which was not much)in my 1971 Volkswagen and headed for the Smoky Mountains. I had no idea that what I was about to do would so dramatically forever change my life.I told "God" that I was going as far into primitive camping as I could go to be alone. Up to this point, I never had much of a relationship with God except for the occasional "fire escape".I said "God,if you are real and you can hear me right now and you really do have a purpose for my life then I need to hear from you."....
My view is that this is a classic example of a crisis conversion. Often a person will, in their search for meaning, shuttle around between extreme positions example- Christianity/ Witchcraft, and then finding no satisfaction, get into a state of desperation. Once in the desperate state, all they need is a guru to come along and they are ready for conversion.
It is only a matter of who gets to them first....JWs, TWI, or the Reverand Sun Myung Moon.
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waterbuffalo
Ok, Refiner, let's explore this a bit further. The people witnessing out there are praying ALSO--to be able to share God as they know Him with someone else. They sincerely have hearts to help people.
Now, since the Bible says when two or more agree, God answers, could it be that God answers prayers (the witnesser and the witnessee agree) and not groups?
WB
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pawtucket
maybe he hasn't answered your prayer yet. And what you thought was an answer was an ad for something you did want had you thought about it.
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Refiner
WaterB says:
Well WB, dont hold this against me, but I dont recognize the Bible so I cant honestly discuss it from a Biblical viewpoint.
Still, I think it is possible that people enter such movements as TWI so that they can learn, from experience, what the face of rottenness truly looks like. Perhaps they are allowed to enter that experience so as to be able to help, later, others avoid the same pitfalls they fell into.
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My3Cents
What if these were not genuine answers. What if there is no god? what if...
The problem is (it seems to me) that people have a belief they are comfortable with about what god does and what prayer is. They keep that belief as long as they can - even if there is no evidence to support it and even when there is evidence to the contrary. We as a species have developed a great ability to see patterns in the world around us. This helps us find food, avoid enemies and find mates. It also helps us evolve belief patterns that may not be justified by the "real world".
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rascal
Dunno water buffelo....my sister never became involved with the way...and yet she managed to become a creditable christian.... and yes, she did it through a church, and her depth of understanding, her spiritual perception ...her scriptural knowldege is every bit as developed as any of ours.......n she didn`t have to put up with nearly the crap we did....I know a whole lot of wonderfull spiritual men and women who didn`t need twi to become that way.......probably just about the same proportions of spiritually aware .. sweet people as bullies that I saw in twi...
I no longer think it is right to dismiss churches or other groups or denegrate their importance.
I think many churches were doing their jobs....we just weren`t fortunate enough to run into them.
My only thought is this.......that if there really IS a God...and he really DID lead us into twi...maybe there was something necessary we needed to learn...I mean after all..I can spot a spiritual con or hypocracy a mile away now...I am also very strong now having survived merceless bullying for so long...
Or maybe we were all just young naieve dumb as-es who had no guidance and fell prey to the first con that came along ...and God had nothing to do with it ...
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Refiner
WB. Ive been being very careful on this site, but you force me to come clean. I hope I dont get howled down. The only God, if any, in my opinion, who operates thru organizations such as TWI , the JWs and Mormonism, is Satan.
I believe they are deception masquerading as light.
The fruit of them, fear, anger, estrangement from family, loss of wealth, etc, etc, etc, is the proof of what they really are.
They are soul robbers.
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rascal
Not to worry Refiner...I will stand beside you, they will have to *lick* us together ...lol as I feel like you have stated a very real possibilty.
Vp could have very well been one of those *wolves in sheeps clothing* that the bible warnes us about....it makes the most sense.
P.s. Just in case...I loan you a pair of my best asbestos undies :-)
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dmiller
Refiner -- you may be a cynic,
:)--> but you are right about the "uniqueness" not being relegated to one group.
Lots of "prey-ers" out there looking for those who are offering "prayers", and guess we all got caught one way or another.
-->
You also pointed out the "crisis conversion", and again -- you're right. Whoever gets there first, makes the "sale". Even if an outfit turns sour, it may have been just what the person needed at that time, so the "sourness" or "rotteness" of whichever Org "got the sale", takes back-stage to the fact that they were there and effective for at least a little while.
Was that the same with you and the various groups you were in? How do you see your past involvement, and the entrance into it? Was it the same as others have said here, or different?
Was your's a "crisis conversion"? Not being nosy, just curious.
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dmiller
I won't howl!
;)-->
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Refiner
I am finding myself very moved in this thread DM. Moved indeed to tears. But I have to go to work now. Hopefully we can continue this when I return.
Peace.
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dmiller
Refiner -- you have yourself a good one!!
:)-->
PS -- if you ran for prez of that Journalist Society that Raf is running for VP of, would you be the Ref Raf ticket??
--> 
:D-->
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dmiller
I GOTTA stop doing this!!
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waterbuffalo
DMiller,
Please see your private messages.
WB
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dmiller
But -- (a big but), if they change the "original doctrine" (and I was quoting Refiner), I have no problem with the "off-shoots" since they are trying to rectify matters. They could obviously fall into the same trap, ditch, whatever you want to call it.
Off-shoots aren't too bad, just make sure you look for the exit door as you enter, in case you need it handy.
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