I always wondered about that....I could tell from the Book of Acts that most of the church simply stayed where they lived and "moved the Word" from there. Why were we supposed to all be jumping around all the time?
Now it's a new year, everybody! Time for you ASSIGNMENTS!! You there, you go here! And you who were where they were, you go there now... and your area is doing fine? Well, we'll fix that! We'll remove the people you're comfortable with and send in some new Corps grads to make your lives a living hell!
And moving every three years? You can't even get really established in a community in three years. You're just starting to really put down roots by that time.
It's ridiculous.
Stagnant is right. The dead sea is dead because it has no OUTLET. If you have no input into anything, where's that at?
Do they just sit there and take in the latest rag and spit it back out? The same rag that is regurgitated from before? eeewww gag me
Back in the 70's when TWI was actually growing dynamicly it made a lot of since.
When you take a person who has started in the corp and gone to their first assignment they would almost always pis people off. They expected everyone to be as anal. It takes a while to understand how the world really works. So you take them and throw them to the wolves. Then you ,ove them somewhere else where the people arn't made at them. This allows the leader to grow and start over. The people are so happy to get someone new that they don't notice they are getting the same line of horse dang.
It really made since. Today it is another story. Phillip was able to serve in one spot after that. How many ministers stay at the same church their whole ministry life. The answer is none. After each growth period you need to change to grow. You see differant things and learn.
Now let me say this. I have seen many mature leaders stay in one spot for 20 or more years and be effective and dynamic. No one can start that way. We all grow with Christ and learn to walk in faith.
Stagnant is right. The dead sea is dead because it has no OUTLET. If you have no input into anything, where's that at?
Do they just sit there and take in the latest rag and spit it back out? The same rag that is regurgitated from before? eeewww gag me
How can they STAND IT????
outandabout......less than two years ago, a corps couple told me that THE REASON they left twi was because it was SO DEAD.
My last five years in twi......our branch had campouts, picnics, skiing weekends, fishing trips with the kids, teenager movie nights and parties, fun-n-game nights, baseball games, etc. Thankfully, I was FAR AWAY from hqs and didn't have heavy-handed leadership. I don't take well to monotony or religiosity.
We had lots of fun.....but the encroaching legalism wasn't far away. Reports had to be filled out. Leadership were asking more questions, prodding, and ready to confront. LCM wanted to snuff out all individuality, all one-on-one fellowship. The corps meetings were the telling signs of cult calamity...... he was blinded by his own arrogance and vanity.
What happened to "the dynamic church" that veepee preached???????
Well TWI made a big case for "rise and expansion" and in fact made unambiguous claims that if there was no expansion then people weren't living the word or some such statement
Obviously this was used to fuel recruitment drives for PFAL and the various Way classes. At some point when numbers dropped and continued to drop, Way leadership quietly modified this approach so they wouldn't have to explain why people were no longer attracted to TWI. Of course they also blamed stagnation and diminishing numbers on cop outs, gays, and possession thereby not having to accept the fact that TWI has little appeal to a person of any age.
Historically the strength of the early Way days was in the youth. Lots of idealistic young people made TWI what it was and as those people grew up there have been no significant sources of replenishment. There are no 60s Jesus freaks looking for a cause or vagabond hippies on the lookout for a community. Both of these movements greatly benefitted TWI in the early days.
Besides what could TWI possibly offer anyone today ? A fellowship concept with middleaged (and older) know-it-alls who rave on in their own special lingo while demanding your money and time. Whats the payoff ? More of the same next week ? The WAy continues to shrink in size but grow in ego and I'm sure their current explanation for this situation is to suggest that "only the committed remain".
There used to be a poster here at GSpot who claimed to be an innie ("Lowly Lolly Puppy") though I was never convinced that she/he wasn't WayGB or worse some troll who fabricated a Way history based on general posts here at GSpot. In any case this person would never provide details on anything except to say "numbers are up", "more classes are running now" but when pressed for data ,he/she would clam up and say "well thats what we were told".Oh wow. So some limb drone said "numbers are up". Thats real authoritative ! Of course then we later found out that some of those "numbers are up" statements were based on the fact that current followers were running their children through the various classes. (Like they had a choice).
Its like when there was a new Way book. Leaders would say "we can't keep copies of this. Its hot !". Well I wonder why when its required reading and the only consumers are Way followers themselves. They wanted married couples to have their own subscription to The Way Mag just to get more cash and make the claim that its a successful publication. There is so much lying in TWI and the sad reality is that most of it is targetted at its own followers in order to keep them in in place. They used to take for granted that each ROA would be bigger and bigger each year but once that turned around they cancelled it to keep from looking bad (like that strategy worked) so the former followers and the NK community wouldn't be able to say "wow. 500 people showed up for the Rock and 450 of those people were HQ staff". No. The energy in TWI right now is designed to keep people in place and hide the what we already know - that TWI is dwindling in size. They used to brag about numbers now they shun any discussion relating to them.
And have you seen the pics on the Website ? Some of these people who used to rave on about being athletes of the spirit and fitness clearly aren't eating on a needs-only basis. This isn't a cheap shot since back in the 70s and 80s some of those hot shots would berate those with weight problems. Now whats going on ?
The middle aged spread is okay in the sight of God ? what is the concept now ? Couch potatoes of the spirit ? The concept of "present truth" has allowed TWI to basically change their story any time they contraict themselves. Its just another way for them to lie to people who keep them in business.
...When you take a person who has started in the corp and gone to their first assignment they would almost always pis people off...It takes a while to understand how the world really works...Then you ,ove them somewhere else where the people arn't made at them. This allows the leader to grow and start over. The people are so happy to get someone new that they don't notice they are getting the same line of horse dang. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hell, they were still doing this in the 90's. Some horse's foot new Corps grad would blow into town trying to tell people who were doing 'just fine thank you' how to live. They would indeed ".... people off". Then we would get the excuses that "nobody's perfect", "give them time to grow", and "God will cover".
If anybody is going to presume to run my life, to make decisions that are going to affect my marriage, my children and my future YOU DAMN WELL BETTER BE PERFECT!!! You're not going to make me and my family your experiment in practical counselling.
Figure out how the world works as ex70's houston said, know what the heck you are talking about before you even THINK about telling me what to do.
In the late 90's they quit uprooting and relocating WC as quickly as they used to...
I wonder if they moved WC around so much because they had messed up an area as badly as possible (read: ABS income had dropped), so they were relocated under the guise of, "They've-lost-their-effectiveness-in-the-area-because-y'all-are-so-comfortable-with-them..." (Ever hear THAT one?)
When they quit moving people around so much it was after the WC who were "fill-time" (er, I mean, "full-time") had had to go back to find "full-time day jobs". I had the impression the moves were limited because the funds to move them around were limited...
One other "excuse" I remember that they used to not move people around, at least in my area, was that it wasn't a need because the believers had moved closer to the leadership or the cities.
That being said...
The Dead Sea was dead because it had no outlet.
The members (yes, members!) of TWI have no honest outlet - every move, every moment, every word - is basically scripted and it's NEVER DONE EXACTLY RIGHT... It wouldn't matter how much Godly inspiration someone had to speak the Word - it seemed like if leadership was within earshot they would come up with a way that it could have been done better or how that person who was being spoken to "wasn't discipleship material" and we were wasting our breath.
In short, it's hard to speak when you feel like you're being suffocated...
Historically the strength of the early Way days was in the youth. Lots of idealistic young people made TWI what it was and as those people grew up there have been no significant sources of replenishment. There are no 60s Jesus freaks looking for a cause or vagabond hippies on the lookout for a community. Both of these movements greatly benefitted TWI in the early days.
Besides what could TWI possibly offer anyone today ? A fellowship concept with middleaged (and older) know-it-alls who rave on in their own special lingo while demanding your money and time. Whats the payoff ? More of the same next week ? The WAy continues to shrink in size but grow in ego and I'm sure their current explanation for this situation is to suggest that "only the committed remain".
diazbro......exactly!
The early days of twi were a combination of MANY factors.......none of which, collectively or sequencially could be duplicated ever again. Add to that, the dynamic leaders who spearheaded work [California area....New York area] before vpw engrafted their work and buried their identities. In basicly ONE generation of youthful exuberance.....18 years of sustained growth......twi established a foothold.
The last 20 years [1985-2005]......twi has been on the decline. The youth of corps parents are NOT signing to go corps. The youth of innies do NOT want to march to this drum any longer!!
How many are PLANNING THEIR EXIT STRATEGIES as spring and summer arrives???????
Back in the 70's when TWI was actually growing dynamicly it made a lot of since.
When you take a person who has started in the corp and gone to their first assignment they would almost always pis people off. They expected everyone to be as anal. It takes a while to understand how the world really works.
IMO, if this is the case then they should have realized something was obviously wrong with the training. Another screwed up logic of TWI. Ex70's, I wouldn't use that to defend them; I would say that that's why they are so screwed up! They can't train people to be proper leaders and to treat people with love, kindness, compassion....you know, CHRISTIAN traits.
ex70.....generally, I agree with most of your posts.....but to say that first assignments of corps would "almost always .... people off" misses the mark.
Dunno about your experiences,.....but gee, I doubt that the corps numbers would have grown in those years (1975-1984) if corps were that obnoxious. From what I've seen and read here at GS, it seems that around 1984/85/86 thereabouts, things really started spiralling downward.
Its like when there was a new Way book. Leaders would say "we can't keep copies of this. Its hot !". Well I wonder why when its required reading and the only consumers are Way followers themselves. They wanted married couples to have their own subscription to The Way Mag just to get more cash and make the claim that its a successful publication. There is so much lying in TWI and the sad reality is that most of it is targetted at its own followers in order to keep them in in place. They used to take for granted that each ROA would be bigger and bigger each year but once that turned around they cancelled it to keep from looking bad (like that strategy worked) so the former followers and the NK community wouldn't be able to say "wow. 500 people showed up for the Rock and 450 of those people were HQ staff".
We had a band teacher in our community who would brag about the numbers of students wanting to learn music since she came on board. There were only two elective choices, art and band. And the kids had to pick two electives.
I knew a family that had Wymag subscriptions for every family member in their house. The parents said they were so excited when the Wymag came they they didn't want to make anyone wait to read it. The word was so timely. I don't believe their son really read it.
I knew a Wycorpse woman who gave up her job and home to take a new assignment. A day before leaving for the ROA, she got a phone call from the LC wife (a gleeful egotistical beeotch) who told her she was dropped from the Wycorpse because she had not renewed her Wymag. (She had been sharing with her room mate). She had no job and no where to live.
The Wyleadership did not understand basic math. If you run off all of your people, your numbers go down. DUH!!!!!!!! :danghitsfan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Back in the 70's when TWI was actually growing dynamicly it made a lot of since.
When you take a person who has started in the corp and gone to their first assignment they would almost always pis people off. They expected everyone to be as anal. It takes a while to understand how the world really works. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
IMO, if this is the case then they should have realized something was obviously wrong with the training. Another screwed up logic of TWI. Ex70's, I wouldn't use that to defend them; I would say that that's why they are so screwed up! They can't train people to be proper leaders and to treat people with love, kindness, compassion....you know, CHRISTIAN traits.
in other words.. love despite our *baser* selves..
TWI, IMO, moved people around in order to maintain control. If a person stayed in an area too long they would gain a personal following. Then if TWI wanted to ram something...er...I mean make a change...they would be forced to get a buy-in from the local leader. Worse, someone may even start to revere someone else besides VPW! Even worse...the abs might quit flowing to HQ. No, VP learned his lesson well from his experiences with The Way West, and The Way East, which I believe were independent organizations. Wierwille conspired to have them shut down if I have my story straight.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Back in the 70's when TWI was actually growing dynamicly it made a lot of since.
When you take a person who has started in the corp and gone to their first assignment they would almost always pis people off. They expected everyone to be as anal. It takes a while to understand how the world really works. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
IMO, if this is the case then they should have realized something was obviously wrong with the training. Another screwed up logic of TWI. Ex70's, I wouldn't use that to defend them; I would say that that's why they are so screwed up! They can't train people to be proper leaders and to treat people with love, kindness, compassion....you know, CHRISTIAN traits.
Exactly!
Then again, vpw never did have any actual TRAINING or EXPERIENCE
with the kinds of programs he claimed to set up. He went to school,
but was never in any sort of PROGRAM to teach leadership experience,
or counseling, or anything else Christians expect from those who claim
to be there to lead them. He also invoked references to the military
with "his" program, but he also had no experience THERE, either, which
is why "his" programs lacked any resemblance to the POSITIVES of being
in the military. The only thing he had there were a few aphorisms about
OBEYING WHEN GIVEN AN ORDER.
In fact, over time, they did NOTHING to correct any of those things.
There were additions to give people experience in HITCHHIKING, in
optional training as a rodeo clown or bronco-riding or whatever,
and in rock climbing, but no improvements along the lines one would
actually use when dealing with Christians.
The only "professional" training the corps ever got was Dale Carnegie
training in SALES. That should make it obvious what the priorities
were in training "leaders" in twi- they were to be professional
Well TWI made a big case for "rise and expansion" and in fact made unambiguous claims that if there was no expansion then people weren't living the word or some such statement
Obviously this was used to fuel recruitment drives for PFAL and the various Way classes. At some point when numbers dropped and continued to drop, Way leadership quietly modified this approach so they wouldn't have to explain why people were no longer attracted to TWI. Of course they also blamed stagnation and diminishing numbers on cop outs, gays, and possession thereby not having to accept the fact that TWI has little appeal to a person of any age.
Historically the strength of the early Way days was in the youth. Lots of idealistic young people made TWI what it was and as those people grew up there have been no significant sources of replenishment. There are no 60s Jesus freaks looking for a cause or vagabond hippies on the lookout for a community. Both of these movements greatly benefitted TWI in the early days.
vpw was a conman who could bs convincingly. His OTHER skills were lacking.
He wanted to turn preaching into a business. He succeeded through hijacking and plagiarizing.
He ripped off what he saw.
He ripped off the books of others to make "his" books. He ripped off the classes of another
to make "his" class, supplemented by plagiarizing the books of others and adding it to
that class. (Initially, "his" class was a Leonard's class with his name in front.)
Once he had a product, he needed a flock to fleece. He had limited success with regular
people. However, once he saw there were young people with Christian ideals, idealism,
and casual attitudes towards physical contact, he used all his skills to recruit as
much of their movement (the Jesus People) as possible.
(Remember, part of his trip was about ORGIES-that's why he asked D00p about them specifically
and in detail, asking for more information than D00p had and ignoring D00p's comments
about being glad to be delivered from that sort of thing. He also told D00p is was ok
with God and tried to use a Bible verse to rationalize it.)
There's no current movement of idealistic youth to draw from. The current climate now
includes THE INTERNET- so if twi finds kids, those kids can find out all about twi
and read what I'm telling you now. So, twi can't repeat the past because the past is
gone, and there's no pool of undereducated (can't find out about twi), idealistic
Christian youth to draw from, apart from twi lacking anyone with the sheer skill at
chicanery and flimflam that vpw had. Most people can't lie, con, and deceive as
convincingly as he did.
Besides what could TWI possibly offer anyone today ? A fellowship concept with middleaged (and older) know-it-alls who rave on in their own special lingo while demanding your money and time. Whats the payoff ? More of the same next week ? The WAy continues to shrink in size but grow in ego and I'm sure their current explanation for this situation is to suggest that "only the committed remain".
There used to be a poster here at GSpot who claimed to be an innie ("Lowly Lolly Puppy") though I was never convinced that she/he wasn't WayGB or worse some troll who fabricated a Way history based on general posts here at GSpot. In any case this person would never provide details on anything except to say "numbers are up", "more classes are running now" but when pressed for data ,he/she would clam up and say "well thats what we were told".Oh wow. So some limb drone said "numbers are up". Thats real authoritative ! Of course then we later found out that some of those "numbers are up" statements were based on the fact that current followers were running their children through the various classes. (Like they had a choice).
Its like when there was a new Way book. Leaders would say "we can't keep copies of this. Its hot !". Well I wonder why when its required reading and the only consumers are Way followers themselves. They wanted married couples to have their own subscription to The Way Mag just to get more cash and make the claim that its a successful publication. There is so much lying in TWI and the sad reality is that most of it is targetted at its own followers in order to keep them in in place. They used to take for granted that each ROA would be bigger and bigger each year but once that turned around they cancelled it to keep from looking bad (like that strategy worked) so the former followers and the NK community wouldn't be able to say "wow. 500 people showed up for the Rock and 450 of those people were HQ staff". No. The energy in TWI right now is designed to keep people in place and hide the what we already know - that TWI is dwindling in size. They used to brag about numbers now they shun any discussion relating to them.
And have you seen the pics on the Website ? Some of these people who used to rave on about being athletes of the spirit and fitness clearly aren't eating on a needs-only basis. This isn't a cheap shot since back in the 70s and 80s some of those hot shots would berate those with weight problems. Now whats going on ?
The middle aged spread is okay in the sight of God ? what is the concept now ? Couch potatoes of the spirit ? The concept of "present truth" has allowed TWI to basically change their story any time they contraict themselves. Its just another way for them to lie to people who keep them in business.
Exactly- twi has nothing to offer NEW followers except stifling control.
Very few people actually WANT stifling control.
twi offers the same to OLD followers, with a big dose of nostalgia and
"we are the sole holders of the truth". Eventually, this won't work because
the OLD followers are getting OLDER. twi lost 80% of its followers 1985-1990,
then lost more people in the late 1990s when then tightened the vise on people's
lives. With a few people leaving every year, and virtually no one joining,
the average age (mean, median and mode) of twi'ers goes steadily up, up, up.
The GSC actually gets more new people than twi does, and we don't go recruiting!
Eventually, twi will be composed of elderly people in the top
seats (instead of just rfr being the only elderly), supervising a staff of
elderly, who pass along orders to the elderly rank-and-file all over the USA.
I don't think it will take much longer, either. It's been 20 years since they
lost most of their numbers. The last people to join were soon after that
(in any real numbers), and were in their 20s. Those people are now in their 40s,
whether or not they're still in twi. Those who were in charge in the 1990s
were in their 30s-50s, which means they're now in their 50s to 70s, whether or not
they're in twi. So, we now have people in their 50s to 70s overseeing people in
their 40s to 70s, with a few feeble attempts to garner enough children of them
in one place to displace water in a hot tub, let alone look like there's significant
numbers of THEM.
Then again, much the same can be said for most of the splinter groups...
Exactly- twi has nothing to offer NEW followers except stifling control.
Very few people actually WANT stifling control.
twi offers the same to OLD followers, with a big dose of nostalgia and
"we are the sole holders of the truth". Eventually, this won't work because
the OLD followers are getting OLDER....
And......maybe that's why there were only OLD people supporting wierwille in the early 70s....ie "pillars" on staff and a few couples who traveled for Sunday BRC services. In other words, WHERE WERE ALL THOSE FOLLOWERS IN VPW'S EARLIER PFAL CLASSES????
In hindsight, it's obvious that people through the years had been bailing on wierwille. Where were the "excited people" of these classes??.....ie Dr. EE Higg1ns, Rosalind R1nker, Peter W@de (although he was a bit younger)??? Did these people see wierwille's cult as STIFLING CONTROL???
And now......today, the same thing. There is a gaping hole of people in their 30s and 40s. Only the "older generation" has staked out the positions on staff and support it. Could it be that many (most) see that the structure is more a conduit for cult activity.......and not a legitimate "church?"
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outandabout
I always wondered about that....I could tell from the Book of Acts that most of the church simply stayed where they lived and "moved the Word" from there. Why were we supposed to all be jumping around all the time?
Now it's a new year, everybody! Time for you ASSIGNMENTS!! You there, you go here! And you who were where they were, you go there now... and your area is doing fine? Well, we'll fix that! We'll remove the people you're comfortable with and send in some new Corps grads to make your lives a living hell!
And moving every three years? You can't even get really established in a community in three years. You're just starting to really put down roots by that time.
It's ridiculous.
Stagnant is right. The dead sea is dead because it has no OUTLET. If you have no input into anything, where's that at?
Do they just sit there and take in the latest rag and spit it back out? The same rag that is regurgitated from before? eeewww gag me
How can they STAND IT????
If you're in TWI and lurking, GET OUT NOW!!!!!!!
Unless you like stagnation.
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ex70sHouston
I can't believe it but I'm going to defend TWI.
Back in the 70's when TWI was actually growing dynamicly it made a lot of since.
When you take a person who has started in the corp and gone to their first assignment they would almost always pis people off. They expected everyone to be as anal. It takes a while to understand how the world really works. So you take them and throw them to the wolves. Then you ,ove them somewhere else where the people arn't made at them. This allows the leader to grow and start over. The people are so happy to get someone new that they don't notice they are getting the same line of horse dang.
It really made since. Today it is another story. Phillip was able to serve in one spot after that. How many ministers stay at the same church their whole ministry life. The answer is none. After each growth period you need to change to grow. You see differant things and learn.
Now let me say this. I have seen many mature leaders stay in one spot for 20 or more years and be effective and dynamic. No one can start that way. We all grow with Christ and learn to walk in faith.
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skyrider
outandabout......less than two years ago, a corps couple told me that THE REASON they left twi was because it was SO DEAD.
My last five years in twi......our branch had campouts, picnics, skiing weekends, fishing trips with the kids, teenager movie nights and parties, fun-n-game nights, baseball games, etc. Thankfully, I was FAR AWAY from hqs and didn't have heavy-handed leadership. I don't take well to monotony or religiosity.
We had lots of fun.....but the encroaching legalism wasn't far away. Reports had to be filled out. Leadership were asking more questions, prodding, and ready to confront. LCM wanted to snuff out all individuality, all one-on-one fellowship. The corps meetings were the telling signs of cult calamity...... he was blinded by his own arrogance and vanity.
What happened to "the dynamic church" that veepee preached???????
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George Aar
One could only hope...
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diazbro
Well TWI made a big case for "rise and expansion" and in fact made unambiguous claims that if there was no expansion then people weren't living the word or some such statement
Obviously this was used to fuel recruitment drives for PFAL and the various Way classes. At some point when numbers dropped and continued to drop, Way leadership quietly modified this approach so they wouldn't have to explain why people were no longer attracted to TWI. Of course they also blamed stagnation and diminishing numbers on cop outs, gays, and possession thereby not having to accept the fact that TWI has little appeal to a person of any age.
Historically the strength of the early Way days was in the youth. Lots of idealistic young people made TWI what it was and as those people grew up there have been no significant sources of replenishment. There are no 60s Jesus freaks looking for a cause or vagabond hippies on the lookout for a community. Both of these movements greatly benefitted TWI in the early days.
Besides what could TWI possibly offer anyone today ? A fellowship concept with middleaged (and older) know-it-alls who rave on in their own special lingo while demanding your money and time. Whats the payoff ? More of the same next week ? The WAy continues to shrink in size but grow in ego and I'm sure their current explanation for this situation is to suggest that "only the committed remain".
There used to be a poster here at GSpot who claimed to be an innie ("Lowly Lolly Puppy") though I was never convinced that she/he wasn't WayGB or worse some troll who fabricated a Way history based on general posts here at GSpot. In any case this person would never provide details on anything except to say "numbers are up", "more classes are running now" but when pressed for data ,he/she would clam up and say "well thats what we were told".Oh wow. So some limb drone said "numbers are up". Thats real authoritative ! Of course then we later found out that some of those "numbers are up" statements were based on the fact that current followers were running their children through the various classes. (Like they had a choice).
Its like when there was a new Way book. Leaders would say "we can't keep copies of this. Its hot !". Well I wonder why when its required reading and the only consumers are Way followers themselves. They wanted married couples to have their own subscription to The Way Mag just to get more cash and make the claim that its a successful publication. There is so much lying in TWI and the sad reality is that most of it is targetted at its own followers in order to keep them in in place. They used to take for granted that each ROA would be bigger and bigger each year but once that turned around they cancelled it to keep from looking bad (like that strategy worked) so the former followers and the NK community wouldn't be able to say "wow. 500 people showed up for the Rock and 450 of those people were HQ staff". No. The energy in TWI right now is designed to keep people in place and hide the what we already know - that TWI is dwindling in size. They used to brag about numbers now they shun any discussion relating to them.
And have you seen the pics on the Website ? Some of these people who used to rave on about being athletes of the spirit and fitness clearly aren't eating on a needs-only basis. This isn't a cheap shot since back in the 70s and 80s some of those hot shots would berate those with weight problems. Now whats going on ?
The middle aged spread is okay in the sight of God ? what is the concept now ? Couch potatoes of the spirit ? The concept of "present truth" has allowed TWI to basically change their story any time they contraict themselves. Its just another way for them to lie to people who keep them in business.
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Ham
Don't speak for all of us, heh heh.
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Oakspear
If anybody is going to presume to run my life, to make decisions that are going to affect my marriage, my children and my future YOU DAMN WELL BETTER BE PERFECT!!!
You're not going to make me and my family your experiment in practical counselling.
Figure out how the world works as ex70's houston said, know what the heck you are talking about before you even THINK about telling me what to do.
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ChasUFarley
In the late 90's they quit uprooting and relocating WC as quickly as they used to...
I wonder if they moved WC around so much because they had messed up an area as badly as possible (read: ABS income had dropped), so they were relocated under the guise of, "They've-lost-their-effectiveness-in-the-area-because-y'all-are-so-comfortable-with-them..." (Ever hear THAT one?)
When they quit moving people around so much it was after the WC who were "fill-time" (er, I mean, "full-time") had had to go back to find "full-time day jobs". I had the impression the moves were limited because the funds to move them around were limited...
One other "excuse" I remember that they used to not move people around, at least in my area, was that it wasn't a need because the believers had moved closer to the leadership or the cities.
That being said...
The Dead Sea was dead because it had no outlet.
The members (yes, members!) of TWI have no honest outlet - every move, every moment, every word - is basically scripted and it's NEVER DONE EXACTLY RIGHT... It wouldn't matter how much Godly inspiration someone had to speak the Word - it seemed like if leadership was within earshot they would come up with a way that it could have been done better or how that person who was being spoken to "wasn't discipleship material" and we were wasting our breath.
In short, it's hard to speak when you feel like you're being suffocated...
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skyrider
diazbro......exactly!
The early days of twi were a combination of MANY factors.......none of which, collectively or sequencially could be duplicated ever again. Add to that, the dynamic leaders who spearheaded work [California area....New York area] before vpw engrafted their work and buried their identities. In basicly ONE generation of youthful exuberance.....18 years of sustained growth......twi established a foothold.
The last 20 years [1985-2005]......twi has been on the decline. The youth of corps parents are NOT signing to go corps. The youth of innies do NOT want to march to this drum any longer!!
How many are PLANNING THEIR EXIT STRATEGIES as spring and summer arrives???????
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Belle
IMO, if this is the case then they should have realized something was obviously wrong with the training. Another screwed up logic of TWI. Ex70's, I wouldn't use that to defend them; I would say that that's why they are so screwed up! They can't train people to be proper leaders and to treat people with love, kindness, compassion....you know, CHRISTIAN traits.
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skyrider
ex70.....generally, I agree with most of your posts.....but to say that first assignments of corps would "almost always .... people off" misses the mark.
Dunno about your experiences,.....but gee, I doubt that the corps numbers would have grown in those years (1975-1984) if corps were that obnoxious. From what I've seen and read here at GS, it seems that around 1984/85/86 thereabouts, things really started spiralling downward.
And, the corps numbers dwindled significantly.
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crystalclearblue
We had a band teacher in our community who would brag about the numbers of students wanting to learn music since she came on board. There were only two elective choices, art and band. And the kids had to pick two electives.
I knew a family that had Wymag subscriptions for every family member in their house. The parents said they were so excited when the Wymag came they they didn't want to make anyone wait to read it. The word was so timely. I don't believe their son really read it.
I knew a Wycorpse woman who gave up her job and home to take a new assignment. A day before leaving for the ROA, she got a phone call from the LC wife (a gleeful egotistical beeotch) who told her she was dropped from the Wycorpse because she had not renewed her Wymag. (She had been sharing with her room mate). She had no job and no where to live.
The Wyleadership did not understand basic math. If you run off all of your people, your numbers go down. DUH!!!!!!!! :danghitsfan:
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excathedra
oh i really liked lowly lolly pop
i didn't like the way and i don't want to be a missionary
i didn't see a lot of those leaders living up to anything they preached
who cares
**
if rosalie and donna would just do a front-page cover for the way mag, they would get a lot more homosexuals into the fold
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Ham
the dead Sea was dead..? because it had no effect.
Dead, no.
outlet.. technically.. no.
some people spend their life studying the ecology of the dead sea..
some organisms.. live in the brackish waters between the "sea" and the tributaries of itself..
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Ham
in other words.. love despite our *baser* selves..
hard, isn't it?
do we wear our skins, or do our skins wear us..
good question. Or observation..
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Broken Arrow
TWI, IMO, moved people around in order to maintain control. If a person stayed in an area too long they would gain a personal following. Then if TWI wanted to ram something...er...I mean make a change...they would be forced to get a buy-in from the local leader. Worse, someone may even start to revere someone else besides VPW! Even worse...the abs might quit flowing to HQ. No, VP learned his lesson well from his experiences with The Way West, and The Way East, which I believe were independent organizations. Wierwille conspired to have them shut down if I have my story straight.
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excathedra
excellent focking point erkjohn
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WordWolf
Exactly!
Then again, vpw never did have any actual TRAINING or EXPERIENCE
with the kinds of programs he claimed to set up. He went to school,
but was never in any sort of PROGRAM to teach leadership experience,
or counseling, or anything else Christians expect from those who claim
to be there to lead them. He also invoked references to the military
with "his" program, but he also had no experience THERE, either, which
is why "his" programs lacked any resemblance to the POSITIVES of being
in the military. The only thing he had there were a few aphorisms about
OBEYING WHEN GIVEN AN ORDER.
In fact, over time, they did NOTHING to correct any of those things.
There were additions to give people experience in HITCHHIKING, in
optional training as a rodeo clown or bronco-riding or whatever,
and in rock climbing, but no improvements along the lines one would
actually use when dealing with Christians.
The only "professional" training the corps ever got was Dale Carnegie
training in SALES. That should make it obvious what the priorities
were in training "leaders" in twi- they were to be professional
SALESPEOPLE.
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WordWolf
vpw was a conman who could bs convincingly. His OTHER skills were lacking.
He wanted to turn preaching into a business. He succeeded through hijacking and plagiarizing.
He ripped off what he saw.
He ripped off the books of others to make "his" books. He ripped off the classes of another
to make "his" class, supplemented by plagiarizing the books of others and adding it to
that class. (Initially, "his" class was a Leonard's class with his name in front.)
Once he had a product, he needed a flock to fleece. He had limited success with regular
people. However, once he saw there were young people with Christian ideals, idealism,
and casual attitudes towards physical contact, he used all his skills to recruit as
much of their movement (the Jesus People) as possible.
(Remember, part of his trip was about ORGIES-that's why he asked D00p about them specifically
and in detail, asking for more information than D00p had and ignoring D00p's comments
about being glad to be delivered from that sort of thing. He also told D00p is was ok
with God and tried to use a Bible verse to rationalize it.)
There's no current movement of idealistic youth to draw from. The current climate now
includes THE INTERNET- so if twi finds kids, those kids can find out all about twi
and read what I'm telling you now. So, twi can't repeat the past because the past is
gone, and there's no pool of undereducated (can't find out about twi), idealistic
Christian youth to draw from, apart from twi lacking anyone with the sheer skill at
chicanery and flimflam that vpw had. Most people can't lie, con, and deceive as
convincingly as he did.
Exactly- twi has nothing to offer NEW followers except stifling control.
Very few people actually WANT stifling control.
twi offers the same to OLD followers, with a big dose of nostalgia and
"we are the sole holders of the truth". Eventually, this won't work because
the OLD followers are getting OLDER. twi lost 80% of its followers 1985-1990,
then lost more people in the late 1990s when then tightened the vise on people's
lives. With a few people leaving every year, and virtually no one joining,
the average age (mean, median and mode) of twi'ers goes steadily up, up, up.
The GSC actually gets more new people than twi does, and we don't go recruiting!
seats (instead of just rfr being the only elderly), supervising a staff of
elderly, who pass along orders to the elderly rank-and-file all over the USA.
I don't think it will take much longer, either. It's been 20 years since they
lost most of their numbers. The last people to join were soon after that
(in any real numbers), and were in their 20s. Those people are now in their 40s,
whether or not they're still in twi. Those who were in charge in the 1990s
were in their 30s-50s, which means they're now in their 50s to 70s, whether or not
they're in twi. So, we now have people in their 50s to 70s overseeing people in
their 40s to 70s, with a few feeble attempts to garner enough children of them
in one place to displace water in a hot tub, let alone look like there's significant
numbers of THEM.
Then again, much the same can be said for most of the splinter groups...
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skyrider
And......maybe that's why there were only OLD people supporting wierwille in the early 70s....ie "pillars" on staff and a few couples who traveled for Sunday BRC services. In other words, WHERE WERE ALL THOSE FOLLOWERS IN VPW'S EARLIER PFAL CLASSES????
In hindsight, it's obvious that people through the years had been bailing on wierwille. Where were the "excited people" of these classes??.....ie Dr. EE Higg1ns, Rosalind R1nker, Peter W@de (although he was a bit younger)??? Did these people see wierwille's cult as STIFLING CONTROL???
And now......today, the same thing. There is a gaping hole of people in their 30s and 40s. Only the "older generation" has staked out the positions on staff and support it. Could it be that many (most) see that the structure is more a conduit for cult activity.......and not a legitimate "church?"
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Broken Arrow
Oh, I dunno about that. Have you forgotten about "Real Clean Window Cleaning"?
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