No, I don't think there is a difference between honoring Jesus Christ as Lord and worship. If you can explain the difference to me, I'm all ears. While you're at it, please explain Phil. 2:6-11. The "bowing of the knee," is an act of worship and homage, all throughout the bible. I worship Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. My redeemer, my saviour, etc.
About the knowledge thing...Yes. PFAL had definite, undeniable gnostic leanings.
Sheesh, I'm sidetracking my own thread. Oh well. :D-->
I'm really astounded sometimes by how some people hold onto their "stuff." It only seems to lend to the idea that people were brainwashed by a cult after all! (oh, that's right, we were)
Having said that, I must admit I've held onto some "stuff." And some of that I'm thankful for as I didn't have a good understanding of the bible before I took PFAL. (now I'm only slightly confused) I was already born again going on, but desired to know about God's word.
But, I'm talking about those who live and die STILL by what they heard/learned in twi.
I recall that I also accepted at one time the idea that if Jesus wasn't a human being - then it would be futile to imagine being able to do the works of a God. But then again, what if a human being truly holds that they have (the fullness of) God/Christ/Spirit living inside of them? Why would doing the works of Jesus seem more remote if thinking He was God Himself. That argument doesn't hold the same previous weight for me personally. But it's also been quite refreshing to also explore the question of Jesus being God outside of the usual slugfests of unitarians vs. trinitarians.
When trinitarians say that Jesus is God, they are not saying he is the Father.
Jesus was both fully human (which allowed him to be tested/tempted and suffer the constraints of being locked in to his earthsuit) but he was also fully divine (and could say "before Abraham, I am" "I and the Father are one" and "He who has seen me has seen the Father.")
So Johniam, when your pastor was talking about the Jesus' struggles with trust or obedience, he was not being anti-trinitarian.t
Ex: While I concede that scripture allows for your definition of worship, which would be appropriate for JC, it also allows for a "worship" that is for God only. Lucifer would know about that.
Also, I agree with those who said they don't judge trinitarians anymore the way they did in TWI. My example of the pastor is that just because he gives lip service to the trinity doesn't mean he's an idolator if he knows that JC was human. But it is also possible to be a trinitarian and to be an idolator and possessed.
When I was in TWI I was prejudiced against anyone who claimed to be trinitarian, but I worked at a place and in the break room there was a table where all the people who wanted to talk about religion sat and the trinity never was discussed. I really think a lot of people who go to trinitarian churches don't really think JC is God. It's like the trinity is something to memorize, but not to figure out.
One quick question: For people who believe in the trinity, why are there only TWO thrones (for God and Jesus Christ) in the Book of Revelation instead of three ( for God,Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit)....... in Revelation 22:1-3?
I have not been able to get an answer, backed by scripture, for this question.
quote:Ex: While I concede that scripture allows for your definition of worship, which would be appropriate for JC, it also allows for a "worship" that is for God only. Lucifer would know about that.
Yes, I agree that God alone is worshipped as the Almighty, Creator, Father, etc., but I'm not following your point entirely. What do you mean by "Lucifer would know about that."?
Paradiseden
That's a really good question, I hadn't thought of before. ;)-->
quote:One quick question: For people who believe in the trinity, why are there only TWO thrones (for God and Jesus Christ) in the Book of Revelation instead of three ( for God,Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit)....... in Revelation 22:1-3?
Simple really. A spirit does not need a throne but as God is presented as a spirit then perhaps he doesn't need one either.
The alternative arguement is that the Holy Spirit is seen at Jesus's baptism (in water golly gosh) in the from of a dove.
I kept a lot of it, but threw out the Way songbooks as I never could stand the singing in fellowship without music. It was boring. Another throw out was "Christians Should Be Preposterous" and "Christian Upchuck", I mean "Christian Etiquette".
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ex10
Johniam,
No, I don't think there is a difference between honoring Jesus Christ as Lord and worship. If you can explain the difference to me, I'm all ears. While you're at it, please explain Phil. 2:6-11. The "bowing of the knee," is an act of worship and homage, all throughout the bible. I worship Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. My redeemer, my saviour, etc.
About the knowledge thing...Yes. PFAL had definite, undeniable gnostic leanings.
Sheesh, I'm sidetracking my own thread. Oh well.
:D-->
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ciythog
I have been thinking about this ever since this topic was posted and I can tell you that I believe:
Being born again of incorruptable seed...
Going to heaven and all He!! isn't gonna stop me...
The dead are dead...
The hope of His soon coming...
SIT (All the manifestations...
Jesus Christ is not God...
Saved by grace not works...
The TRUE love of God never fails...
The power of Prayer... both kinds..
That God meets my need... and always when the time is just right
That God's knows my heart...
and of course it's
Christ In You, The Hope of Glory
(Hence my screenname)
CIYTHOG
I may add more as I think about it some more
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George Aar
St.John,
The "Red Thread" teaching was a rip-off of a sermon Oral Roberts did called "The Fourth Man". Might check with ORU for a copy?
geo.
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George Aar
Or just click here:
http://205.143.139.58/ipac20/ipac.jsp?sess...&index=TL#focus
You're welcome,
geo.
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corrydj
You know,,,
I'm really astounded sometimes by how some people hold onto their "stuff." It only seems to lend to the idea that people were brainwashed by a cult after all! (oh, that's right, we were)
Having said that, I must admit I've held onto some "stuff." And some of that I'm thankful for as I didn't have a good understanding of the bible before I took PFAL. (now I'm only slightly confused) I was already born again going on, but desired to know about God's word.
But, I'm talking about those who live and die STILL by what they heard/learned in twi.
Think for yourselves people...really.
corrydj
NEVER KICK A COW CHIP ON A HOT DAY!!
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TheInvisibleDan
Paradiseden and Ex-10,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful replies.
I recall that I also accepted at one time the idea that if Jesus wasn't a human being - then it would be futile to imagine being able to do the works of a God. But then again, what if a human being truly holds that they have (the fullness of) God/Christ/Spirit living inside of them? Why would doing the works of Jesus seem more remote if thinking He was God Himself. That argument doesn't hold the same previous weight for me personally. But it's also been quite refreshing to also explore the question of Jesus being God outside of the usual slugfests of unitarians vs. trinitarians.
Thank you.
Danny
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lindyhopper
Hey guys and gals sorry...
but I'm gunna have to break this up here.
This is not a twi specific topic. PFAL was stolen by some of the off-shoots and Werwille stole his material from other men to begin with.
So this is not really the appropriate place to discuss this. Maybe the Open or Doctrinal Forums would be better.
Thanks
Great.
Thanks
Who's your daddy?
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WordWolf
Uh, this IS on-topic.
This is a discussion of doctrines we were exposed to in twi, and
told to believe, and their lasting effects on us, or lack thereof.
In this case, the fact that the material was stolen from other people
is irrelevant to the main body of that discussion. We're discussing
what we are currently doing with what twi taught, NOT where twi got
it.
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lindyhopper
I'm sorry I disagree.
and
Wolf, I'm kidding.
Who's your daddy?
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WordWolf
Sorry, my sarcasm-detector was napping.
:)-->
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def59
When trinitarians say that Jesus is God, they are not saying he is the Father.
Jesus was both fully human (which allowed him to be tested/tempted and suffer the constraints of being locked in to his earthsuit) but he was also fully divine (and could say "before Abraham, I am" "I and the Father are one" and "He who has seen me has seen the Father.")
So Johniam, when your pastor was talking about the Jesus' struggles with trust or obedience, he was not being anti-trinitarian.t
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oldiesman
Sounds kinky.
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Raf
I kept nothing from PFAL.
I told it everything it wanted to know.
Ahhhh. Ambiguity. The devil's volleyball.
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ex10
Well then, that settles it, Raf.
The PFAL meister has spoken...
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johniam
Ex: While I concede that scripture allows for your definition of worship, which would be appropriate for JC, it also allows for a "worship" that is for God only. Lucifer would know about that.
Also, I agree with those who said they don't judge trinitarians anymore the way they did in TWI. My example of the pastor is that just because he gives lip service to the trinity doesn't mean he's an idolator if he knows that JC was human. But it is also possible to be a trinitarian and to be an idolator and possessed.
When I was in TWI I was prejudiced against anyone who claimed to be trinitarian, but I worked at a place and in the break room there was a table where all the people who wanted to talk about religion sat and the trinity never was discussed. I really think a lot of people who go to trinitarian churches don't really think JC is God. It's like the trinity is something to memorize, but not to figure out.
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excathedra
oldies, when i reeeeeeaaaaaaaaaallllllllly love someone, i have a habit of saying "i worhsip you"
and if someone said that to me, i would feel happy, not kinky
ps. i havent read this thread recently so if i'm being a jerk, forgive me
?
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Paradiseden
One quick question: For people who believe in the trinity, why are there only TWO thrones (for God and Jesus Christ) in the Book of Revelation instead of three ( for God,Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit)....... in Revelation 22:1-3?
I have not been able to get an answer, backed by scripture, for this question.
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TheInvisibleDan
The third throne lies hidden among the hearts of
His worshipers, where the Holy Spirit dwells.
Just a wild guess.
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ex10
Johniam,
You said:
Yes, I agree that God alone is worshipped as the Almighty, Creator, Father, etc., but I'm not following your point entirely. What do you mean by "Lucifer would know about that."?
Paradiseden
That's a really good question, I hadn't thought of before.
;)-->
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def59
johniam
you can be a unitarian and be possessed.
The burden of proof weighs on unitarians to disprove the deity of Christ.s
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sadie
PFAL's teaching and the teacher's actions were in contridiction with each other. Chucked all of it...Hypnotic and conniving connoisseurs
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Trefor Heywood
Paradiseden:
Simple really. A spirit does not need a throne but as God is presented as a spirit then perhaps he doesn't need one either.
The alternative arguement is that the Holy Spirit is seen at Jesus's baptism (in water golly gosh) in the from of a dove.
Doves, being birds, need pirches not thrones.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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MarkedAndAvoided
I kept a lot of it, but threw out the Way songbooks as I never could stand the singing in fellowship without music. It was boring. Another throw out was "Christians Should Be Preposterous" and "Christian Upchuck", I mean "Christian Etiquette".
Marked and Avoided
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excathedra
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