Paradiseden -- cause there are ONLY two thrones. There is NO trinity, as you may have guessed, but there IS a "dynamic duo" (to quote John Lynn), and they are the two who will occupy those thrones.
PFAL is that it ,in a modest fashion, raised my consciousness to consider that the bible was
a deeper book than it appeared to be and that
spending time studying might be useful.
On the other hand I was pretty young and assummed that TWI was the only organization that had such an approach though I was wrong.
Even when I was
the most dedicated of Wayfers I ran into people
actively involved in missionary work who routinely told me stories of deliverance
and how they too were concerned with the deeper
truths of the bible. So I had to consider
that TWI wasn't the one stop shop for truth
that it claimed to be. And of course later when
I left I was sure that it was most certainly not
a source of any truth just propoganda to keep
people donating money to keep it all alive.
And PFAL also taught me about pyramid marketing schemes. They presented PFAL it as the one and only class you would need to "tap in" to God's abundant power but not even before you were done with PFAL they were talking up the Intermediate class and the other classes RM, W&U, DWA, etc and of course the WOW program.
So they would say "well PFAL is great to get started but to REALLY see God at work in your life you need to take the "fill-in-the-blank" class ! Thats where God REALLY blows your mind"
I just found this thread and wanted to toss my two cents in. I haven't seen everyone else's lists yet, but, time permitting, I'll go back and read em.
Let's see. I initially threw out the law of believing,but have come to accept a slightly less extreme version. Believing is an essential part of success and fear is often a precursor to failure, but neither is a LAW that binds God's actions..imo.
Are the Dead Alive Now? I don't know, but I do believe in spooks. I do I do I do I do believe in spooks! And hooky-pook artists! That is, I believe the Devil is alive and well, and has a lot of help.
Speaking in tongues, Yep. All nine manifestations. A qualified yes. I think every Christian can do em, but being able to minister healing to someone once in a while is not necessarily the same as having a "gift" of healing. I think that might be in the category of a gift ministry like Oral Roberts. Or to use VP's term, a "longsuit". So there may be a middle ground between those who say you have to have the gift of tongues to be able to S.I.T. and VP's assertion that every born again believer can speak in tongues and there's no such thing as a "gif of tongues".
Lessee...I still don't believe the Trinity, but I can't say for certain that it's wrong. It still contradicts more Scripture than it fits, imo, but the Scripture is not the only source of truth, nor is it perfectly God-breathed. So I really can't argue that one anymore except to say it doesn't make sense to me.
Salvation by grace. Yep. I don't believe the Way's later teaching that there's absolutely no judgment for wayward Christians, but getting saved is easy.
The Great Mystery. Check. I like the emphasis on Paul's ministry. I don't think we came close to recreating it, but it does give us the true heart of Christianity in the seven Church epistles.
And, I think that's about it. I may see something I should have added as I read the rest of the thread, but most of the Class is either wrong or questionable--
I have alot of trouble with the idea propagated in PFAL that "knowledge" is the ultimate end, and "principles" define our relationship with Jesus Christ and our fellow humans.
I didn't infer that from PFAL, but I totally agree that knowledge without love is puffed up. That's what you meant, isn't it?
Wow. I don't see how you couldn't infer that. It was the underlying theme of the class. One of hte first verses he quoted was Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". He started right off the bat trying to convince us that knowledge itself is the difference between an abundant life and being destroyed. By the end of session two he was already trumpeting his outstanding Bbile knowledge by asking the rhetorical question, "Who has taught us figures of speech?" Knowledge is what PFAL is all about.
Jbarrax: Knowledge is the sum of what anybody has learned and not forgotten yet. Everything has knowledge in it, but remember session 7 when VP was telling how to get born again. He really did make it pretty simple. "Have you made Jesus your Lord? Have you?" It suggested to me the same "lamentable" voice Darius used hoping Daniel survived the lion's den. Now I admit that later in TWI more and more people seemed to believe that knowledge was more important than love, but it wasn't always that way. I never thought knowledge of PFAL defined my relationship with God and JC. In 1 John 1 where it talks about having fellowship with God and JC it gets into honesty with God (1 John 1:8-10) and not hating brothers and sisters in Christ. You don't need much knowledge to start doing that. That's what I inferred from the class and for years a lot of the believers I saw lived it.
I guess it depends on when you were in Johniam. I didn't get involved until 82, which was during what has beome known as TWI2. I have heard that TWI1 was more of a Christian movement and less relgious than TWI2. By the time I got in, the focus was clearly on the class and on differentiating The ministry from the sincere but ignorant church goers who didn't know "The Word" like we did. There was still some emphasis on witnessing, outreach, and such, but the main focus was on "mastering the PFAL material" and committing to the ministry.
I went into the way corps in 1979, and the grand allure was to "know the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century..."
I was recruited by VP himself. And this was his promise to me personally. So if you think it wasn't about the knowledge, well ok, maybe it wasn't for you. But it sure was for me.
I admit, I was fooled, and bought into the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. And I don't think I was the only one.
I guess I should add that I was recruited in 1975, I had to go to college first.
[This message was edited by ex10 on January 19, 2004 at 22:11.]
I got in TWI in 1976 but was never corps. I saw believers including myself occasionally cop an arrogant attitude when witnessing. I think it was our "superior knowledge" that somehow justified this arrogance. I guess that was just the tip of the iceberg.
I agree but sadly TWI had some fine actors. "How to win friends and influence people." My desire was the same as yours: to have a way of verifying my beliefs in the Bible. My first FC was corps, very arrogant but also very smooth. He hid the "I know everything" viewpoint pretty well.
Ex 10th, you are right, it was the LOVE that attracted many people.
I can remember as a 17 yr old waitress...after seeing the love, the peace, the confidence the cameraderie of being on an important mission, that the wows exuded...being lonely and naieve...
I remember thinking.... Gee I dunno what it is they got....but *I* WANT it.
I wanted to be happy and victorious like those people in the *changed* video they showed me at my first twi function....
They said it was easy...all I needed to do was take a class that would teach me God`s answeres to all the problems in life....
I wanted to be able to *take a stand* and help make the world a better place like the exciting music fired us up about when the *take a stand caravan* came through a week or two later....
I wanted to fight in the spiritual battle for God when one of the wows died during our pfal class a week or so after that... I was told that I needed to go wow to fight and defeat Satan...I wanted to strike a blow for my friend...nso I was on the wow field within three months of introduction to twi.
What is sad is.... even though much of what I learned didn`t seem very effective in pfal....I spent 15 plus years believing that was true and striving to make it work....just knowing that if *I* could just get it right.... everything would be well as promised....
For me ...it never really was about learning the word and being arrogant....It was about wanting to please God, and be a a part of a force for good...
As far as what I hold on to from pfal? nothing really....unless God sees fit to reintroduce the information from a more reliable source...which on occasion,I believe that he has....much also has been proven to be false.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 21, 2004 at 12:05.]
The only part I threw out, of course, was the nonsense about renewed mind and lying. Can you blame me?
Wait til the the judgement seat and see how red your butt turns. :o--> Doesn't it say something about few or many stripes? And "YOU"LL receive in YOUR body the things done whether good or bad"? And also, "KNOWING THE TERROR OF THE LORD we persuade men"? Well, just my private interpretation maybe.
I do think it is love to take a stand and call a liar a liar but I suppose you can certainly do it in a civilized and acceptable manner. For instance I believe someone here ************* is making all her stuff up about Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. (ie: lying) But I'm not out to slander her or something. Just to take a stand and say I believe she is lying. She may turn around and say something I have said is a lie. That is civilized. That is still allowed in our country of liberty. No foaming at the mouth, no pistols cocked. Just telling it like it is.
Maybe it's for attention at the expense of another man's name. God knows.
I am sure God the creator of the heavens and earth can tell and knows the difference between a liar and false witness and the truth from a faithful witness. You really think lies will go unpunished or something? Anianias and Sapphira come to mind, bless their little old hearts.
I hear earballs being knocked together. The king of kings and the lord of lords won't be spit on next time, will he now? I definately remember that part of the class! :)-->
One more thing from the class. Man has no power. The power is from God. The believer puts power in to manifestation when he renews his mind to the truth and speaks the truth in the love of God. Words are cheap from man without the truth and power of God to back it up. It is impossible for God to lie and His Word is faithful. :)-->
[This message was edited by LiarLiarPantsOnFire on February 02, 2004 at 14:32.]
[This message was edited by LiarLiarPantsOnFire on February 02, 2004 at 14:41.]
[This message was edited by pawtucket on February 02, 2004 at 14:46.]
I took out the name you mentioned.
[This message was edited by pawtucket on February 02, 2004 at 14:52.]
Earballs knocked together??? Only one person on the planet I know that uses THAT term...izzat you Craig? Then again I guess if it were... you`d know that these women aren`t lying...wun`tcha???
Geeeze liar...your name says it all..... IF you spent any time at ALL checking out the info provided...you would find out that there are many MANY women who have come forth with the same information of abuse and WORSE of accounts of the outragious abuse indured at vp`s hands.... it is really foolish to sound off about folks and situations that you know nothing about....
Undoubtedly you will NEED to slap them with the label of liars as well...after all...you HAVE to justify your refusal to consider truth in some way..... I believe that it must be in order to preserve the pristine image of the your wolf in sheeps clothing.....and his doctrine.
You are mistaken about what is in store for us when Christ returnes as well...sounds to me as if you are trying to drag us back into the fear and bondage that we have been delivered from...
Life is good...GOD is good...there is no need to be afraid of either anymore llpof...come on give them both a chance...
Even if all the stories and allegations are all a pack of lies, the way still imploded when VPW died. The organization has been dying a slow, pretty painful death for almost two decades. If PFAL was so great, and full of "truth" where is the "good fruit?" It was after all, the "foundation" of the organization.
I learned that Doctor VPW led us to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and I wouldn't follow those bastards if they were the last people on earth...Ha! Ha! Ha!
Wait til the the judgement seat and see how red your butt turns. Doesn't it say something about few or many stripes? And "YOU"LL receive in YOUR body the things done whether good or bad"? And also, "KNOWING THE TERROR OF THE LORD we persuade men"? Well, just my private interpretation maybe.
Reminds me of SNS tape #1800 - God's abundance in the future - from June of '95. Not necessarily LCM, Rascal, just a wannabe.
Hey Liar! I will "not serve thy gods, nor the golden image which thou hast set up"!
You are probably right johniam....pathetic..trying to make me afraid of getting a spanking from a God that seemingly has been SO good to me.
Makes all the sense in the world...answere prayers...shower us with blessings...take the time to educate us...send some one to hold us when we are stricken... see to it that we are prosperous...he has been doing ALL these things for me ... so that one day when he gets us up there where he wants us he can give us a good a$$ kicking????? I don`t think so....
You can`t make me afraid of one who has been so good to me llpof
[This message was edited by rascal on February 03, 2004 at 9:52.]
"I hear earballs being knocked together. The king of kings and the lord of lords won't be spit on next time, will he now?"
If I may, lose the "earballs" terminology ASAP. Your bias becomes a little too apparent too quickly (outside of a certain corn-fed huckster from Ohio, I know of no one on earth who has - or would ever - use the term. Sheesh, gave me the creeps just seeing it in print).
We may not know much about Kings and Lords and whatnot, but being the dedicated Wayfers that we were, we know a thing or two about spit. I thought it was something that loving men of God did all the time, no?
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dmiller
Paradiseden -- cause there are ONLY two thrones. There is NO trinity, as you may have guessed, but there IS a "dynamic duo" (to quote John Lynn), and they are the two who will occupy those thrones.
check out the new CES website www.biblicalunitarian.com if you have further questions.
Sorry -- tried to make this a "live" link, but it did not seem to work. Bless
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corrydj
Excath.....hahaha, very funny!!
NEVER KICK A COW CHIP ON A HOT DAY!!
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diazbro
About the only positive thing I will say about
PFAL is that it ,in a modest fashion, raised my consciousness to consider that the bible was
a deeper book than it appeared to be and that
spending time studying might be useful.
On the other hand I was pretty young and assummed that TWI was the only organization that had such an approach though I was wrong.
Even when I was
the most dedicated of Wayfers I ran into people
actively involved in missionary work who routinely told me stories of deliverance
and how they too were concerned with the deeper
truths of the bible. So I had to consider
that TWI wasn't the one stop shop for truth
that it claimed to be. And of course later when
I left I was sure that it was most certainly not
a source of any truth just propoganda to keep
people donating money to keep it all alive.
And PFAL also taught me about pyramid marketing schemes. They presented PFAL it as the one and only class you would need to "tap in" to God's abundant power but not even before you were done with PFAL they were talking up the Intermediate class and the other classes RM, W&U, DWA, etc and of course the WOW program.
So they would say "well PFAL is great to get started but to REALLY see God at work in your life you need to take the "fill-in-the-blank" class ! Thats where God REALLY blows your mind"
And so on and so on.
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ex10
Johniam
Thanks. I get it now!
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Jbarrax
I just found this thread and wanted to toss my two cents in. I haven't seen everyone else's lists yet, but, time permitting, I'll go back and read em.
Let's see. I initially threw out the law of believing,but have come to accept a slightly less extreme version. Believing is an essential part of success and fear is often a precursor to failure, but neither is a LAW that binds God's actions..imo.
Are the Dead Alive Now? I don't know, but I do believe in spooks. I do I do I do I do believe in spooks! And hooky-pook artists! That is, I believe the Devil is alive and well, and has a lot of help.
Speaking in tongues, Yep. All nine manifestations. A qualified yes. I think every Christian can do em, but being able to minister healing to someone once in a while is not necessarily the same as having a "gift" of healing. I think that might be in the category of a gift ministry like Oral Roberts. Or to use VP's term, a "longsuit". So there may be a middle ground between those who say you have to have the gift of tongues to be able to S.I.T. and VP's assertion that every born again believer can speak in tongues and there's no such thing as a "gif of tongues".
Lessee...I still don't believe the Trinity, but I can't say for certain that it's wrong. It still contradicts more Scripture than it fits, imo, but the Scripture is not the only source of truth, nor is it perfectly God-breathed. So I really can't argue that one anymore except to say it doesn't make sense to me.
Salvation by grace. Yep. I don't believe the Way's later teaching that there's absolutely no judgment for wayward Christians, but getting saved is easy.
The Great Mystery. Check. I like the emphasis on Paul's ministry. I don't think we came close to recreating it, but it does give us the true heart of Christianity in the seven Church epistles.
And, I think that's about it. I may see something I should have added as I read the rest of the thread, but most of the Class is either wrong or questionable--
in my opinion.
plink, plink.
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
Wow. I don't see how you couldn't infer that. It was the underlying theme of the class. One of hte first verses he quoted was Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge". He started right off the bat trying to convince us that knowledge itself is the difference between an abundant life and being destroyed. By the end of session two he was already trumpeting his outstanding Bbile knowledge by asking the rhetorical question, "Who has taught us figures of speech?" Knowledge is what PFAL is all about.
Peace
JerryB
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johniam
Jbarrax: Knowledge is the sum of what anybody has learned and not forgotten yet. Everything has knowledge in it, but remember session 7 when VP was telling how to get born again. He really did make it pretty simple. "Have you made Jesus your Lord? Have you?" It suggested to me the same "lamentable" voice Darius used hoping Daniel survived the lion's den. Now I admit that later in TWI more and more people seemed to believe that knowledge was more important than love, but it wasn't always that way. I never thought knowledge of PFAL defined my relationship with God and JC. In 1 John 1 where it talks about having fellowship with God and JC it gets into honesty with God (1 John 1:8-10) and not hating brothers and sisters in Christ. You don't need much knowledge to start doing that. That's what I inferred from the class and for years a lot of the believers I saw lived it.
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Jbarrax
I guess it depends on when you were in Johniam. I didn't get involved until 82, which was during what has beome known as TWI2. I have heard that TWI1 was more of a Christian movement and less relgious than TWI2. By the time I got in, the focus was clearly on the class and on differentiating The ministry from the sincere but ignorant church goers who didn't know "The Word" like we did. There was still some emphasis on witnessing, outreach, and such, but the main focus was on "mastering the PFAL material" and committing to the ministry.
Peace
JerryB
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ex10
Geeze,
I went into the way corps in 1979, and the grand allure was to "know the Word like it hasn't been known since the first century..."
I was recruited by VP himself. And this was his promise to me personally. So if you think it wasn't about the knowledge, well ok, maybe it wasn't for you. But it sure was for me.
I admit, I was fooled, and bought into the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. And I don't think I was the only one.
I guess I should add that I was recruited in 1975, I had to go to college first.
[This message was edited by ex10 on January 19, 2004 at 22:11.]
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johniam
I got in TWI in 1976 but was never corps. I saw believers including myself occasionally cop an arrogant attitude when witnessing. I think it was our "superior knowledge" that somehow justified this arrogance. I guess that was just the tip of the iceberg.
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ex10
johniam
I don't think it was arrogance that won people. I think it was the sincere desire to "know that you know..."
My experience in life is that arrogant people are not very good salespeople.
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JustThinking
Ex10,
I agree but sadly TWI had some fine actors. "How to win friends and influence people." My desire was the same as yours: to have a way of verifying my beliefs in the Bible. My first FC was corps, very arrogant but also very smooth. He hid the "I know everything" viewpoint pretty well.
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rascal
Ex 10th, you are right, it was the LOVE that attracted many people.
I can remember as a 17 yr old waitress...after seeing the love, the peace, the confidence the cameraderie of being on an important mission, that the wows exuded...being lonely and naieve...
I remember thinking.... Gee I dunno what it is they got....but *I* WANT it.
I wanted to be happy and victorious like those people in the *changed* video they showed me at my first twi function....
They said it was easy...all I needed to do was take a class that would teach me God`s answeres to all the problems in life....
I wanted to be able to *take a stand* and help make the world a better place like the exciting music fired us up about when the *take a stand caravan* came through a week or two later....
I wanted to fight in the spiritual battle for God when one of the wows died during our pfal class a week or so after that... I was told that I needed to go wow to fight and defeat Satan...I wanted to strike a blow for my friend...nso I was on the wow field within three months of introduction to twi.
What is sad is.... even though much of what I learned didn`t seem very effective in pfal....I spent 15 plus years believing that was true and striving to make it work....just knowing that if *I* could just get it right.... everything would be well as promised....
For me ...it never really was about learning the word and being arrogant....It was about wanting to please God, and be a a part of a force for good...
As far as what I hold on to from pfal? nothing really....unless God sees fit to reintroduce the information from a more reliable source...which on occasion,I believe that he has....much also has been proven to be false.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 21, 2004 at 12:05.]
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outofdafog
Wisdom is a good thing. I believe that is what ultimately God wants for each of us. To have wisdom.
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LiarLiarPantsOnFire
No offense, I'm just jealous.
I remember lots from the class.
The only part I threw out, of course, was the nonsense about renewed mind and lying. Can you blame me?
Wait til the the judgement seat and see how red your butt turns.
:o--> Doesn't it say something about few or many stripes? And "YOU"LL receive in YOUR body the things done whether good or bad"? And also, "KNOWING THE TERROR OF THE LORD we persuade men"? Well, just my private interpretation maybe.
I do think it is love to take a stand and call a liar a liar but I suppose you can certainly do it in a civilized and acceptable manner. For instance I believe someone here ************* is making all her stuff up about Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille. (ie: lying) But I'm not out to slander her or something. Just to take a stand and say I believe she is lying. She may turn around and say something I have said is a lie. That is civilized. That is still allowed in our country of liberty. No foaming at the mouth, no pistols cocked. Just telling it like it is.
Maybe it's for attention at the expense of another man's name. God knows.
I am sure God the creator of the heavens and earth can tell and knows the difference between a liar and false witness and the truth from a faithful witness. You really think lies will go unpunished or something? Anianias and Sapphira come to mind, bless their little old hearts.
I hear earballs being knocked together. The king of kings and the lord of lords won't be spit on next time, will he now? I definately remember that part of the class!
:)-->
One more thing from the class. Man has no power. The power is from God. The believer puts power in to manifestation when he renews his mind to the truth and speaks the truth in the love of God. Words are cheap from man without the truth and power of God to back it up. It is impossible for God to lie and His Word is faithful.
:)-->
[This message was edited by LiarLiarPantsOnFire on February 02, 2004 at 14:32.]
[This message was edited by LiarLiarPantsOnFire on February 02, 2004 at 14:41.]
[This message was edited by pawtucket on February 02, 2004 at 14:46.]
I took out the name you mentioned.
[This message was edited by pawtucket on February 02, 2004 at 14:52.]
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CoolWaters
nothing...anymore...sorry...
?????????????
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 02, 2004 at 16:58.]
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rascal
Earballs knocked together??? Only one person on the planet I know that uses THAT term...izzat you Craig? Then again I guess if it were... you`d know that these women aren`t lying...wun`tcha???
Geeeze liar...your name says it all..... IF you spent any time at ALL checking out the info provided...you would find out that there are many MANY women who have come forth with the same information of abuse and WORSE of accounts of the outragious abuse indured at vp`s hands.... it is really foolish to sound off about folks and situations that you know nothing about....
Undoubtedly you will NEED to slap them with the label of liars as well...after all...you HAVE to justify your refusal to consider truth in some way..... I believe that it must be in order to preserve the pristine image of the your wolf in sheeps clothing.....and his doctrine.
You are mistaken about what is in store for us when Christ returnes as well...sounds to me as if you are trying to drag us back into the fear and bondage that we have been delivered from...
Life is good...GOD is good...there is no need to be afraid of either anymore llpof...come on give them both a chance...
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Jbarrax
Apparently what some of us have kept from PFAL is arrogance.
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ex10
My thoughts exactly, Jerry.
;)-->
Even if all the stories and allegations are all a pack of lies, the way still imploded when VPW died. The organization has been dying a slow, pretty painful death for almost two decades. If PFAL was so great, and full of "truth" where is the "good fruit?" It was after all, the "foundation" of the organization.
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mick
I learned that Doctor VPW led us to Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and I wouldn't follow those bastards if they were the last people on earth...Ha! Ha! Ha!
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johniam
quote:
Wait til the the judgement seat and see how red your butt turns. Doesn't it say something about few or many stripes? And "YOU"LL receive in YOUR body the things done whether good or bad"? And also, "KNOWING THE TERROR OF THE LORD we persuade men"? Well, just my private interpretation maybe.
Reminds me of SNS tape #1800 - God's abundance in the future - from June of '95. Not necessarily LCM, Rascal, just a wannabe.
Hey Liar! I will "not serve thy gods, nor the golden image which thou hast set up"!
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rascal
You are probably right johniam....pathetic..trying to make me afraid of getting a spanking from a God that seemingly has been SO good to me.
Makes all the sense in the world...answere prayers...shower us with blessings...take the time to educate us...send some one to hold us when we are stricken... see to it that we are prosperous...he has been doing ALL these things for me ... so that one day when he gets us up there where he wants us he can give us a good a$$ kicking????? I don`t think so....
You can`t make me afraid of one who has been so good to me llpof
[This message was edited by rascal on February 03, 2004 at 9:52.]
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excathedra
hi dear mick and welcome
:)-->
?
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George Aar
Uh, Liar,
"I hear earballs being knocked together. The king of kings and the lord of lords won't be spit on next time, will he now?"
If I may, lose the "earballs" terminology ASAP. Your bias becomes a little too apparent too quickly (outside of a certain corn-fed huckster from Ohio, I know of no one on earth who has - or would ever - use the term. Sheesh, gave me the creeps just seeing it in print).
We may not know much about Kings and Lords and whatnot, but being the dedicated Wayfers that we were, we know a thing or two about spit. I thought it was something that loving men of God did all the time, no?
geo.
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