To whom it is written is very important for understanding what you are reading
SIT-evidence that I have holy spirit
Chapter and verses devoid of authority
4 crucified
My God! My God! For this purpose was I spared!
Getting quiet and peaceful in order to receive from God, be it an answer to prayer, or a still small voice which is, I guess, the same thing.
I do still believe that "fear is sand in the machinery of life" and have taught my kids the same...
The how to receive is to believe...
God's ability equals His willingness
Body soul and spirit
God's Word is His Will
It's Christ in me the hope of glory! (and if there are a thousand believers with Christ in them who know the power within, we can chop old Satan's ears off a thousand times!) Yeah, I still love that statement, sorry... :)-->
John 14:12- "For the works that I do, ye shall do also...."
And many others I guess
Never did understand "needs and wants parallel though..
You may say that so much of this can be found elswhere, and this is true. I believe it is all found in the Bible for instance. But since you asked which it was that I have kept from PFAL, and since these things were first layed out to me in PFAL, I would have to say that "these are the things from PFAL that I have kept.."
And so it doesn't matter to me WHERE I learned it. These things make sense to me biblically, and for me to "chuck these beliefs" because of who it was that pointed it out to me doesn't seem logical...
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on January 11, 2004 at 12:53.]
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on January 11, 2004 at 13:09.]
Many things that you guys have mentioned, I also believe. I guess my problem with the PFAL material is the underlying gnostic/metaphysical approach to God and the scriptures. I found it so confusing to sort it all out, that it was impeding my relationship with Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour.
And I still believe that he is the subject of the entire bible, from Gensis to Revelation. And Christianity is about relationship with God, through Jesus Christ above all else. And being led by his holy spirit. :)-->
And Evan, I don't care of I'm sliding on my back, my front, or my side, as long as I'm sliding towards Jesus Christ. ;)-->
[This message was edited by ex10 on January 11, 2004 at 13:22.]
Agreed Evan and others..... I didn`t start healing untill I tossed everything....started from scratch ....admitting that I didn`t know WHAT was truth anymore (or even IF there was a God) .......the *truths* that I had accepted had been taught by liars, greedy manipulative theives .... it would be nuts to beleive that it was untainted...PLUS it didn`t work....never really HAD worked very well.
(So much of what we revered in twi doctrine ....really whether right or wrong seem to be unimportant in the whole scheme of things)
I eventually realised either their *formuals were flawed or God was...
It`s really cool though...What was seemingly important (and much of what was dismissed by twi) has been retaught from *sanitary* sources.... many not even christian...but it seems after I learn ....understand it ....I always get a little dig in the ribs.......and it`s almost as if someone is saying... I am glad that you *get* it now...but lookit here...even though you DON`T like scriptures...lol it IS in the bible too.......( i seem to always be taught in sources of three)
I think that it is cool that God is willing to go to the effort of continuing my education outside the scripture I am humbled that he cares enough to do so.
Not so sure about the "cry of triumph" - but dont really care about that one, either way.
Most of what Jonny Lingo stated.
One thing I really let go of is the idea that believing in the trinity is "devilish and evil". If it was so bad then God would not be heaping such huge blessings on so many "orthodox" ministries. It's not a big deal. Refusing to fellowship with trinitarians is pure arrogance. They love God and love and serve others as much or more than any Way or Ex-wayers ever have.
Here is what I've come up with so far...I believe:
in prayer...there is power there
God talks to us....otherwise I would NOT have made it through the divorce...God kept me sane
God KNOWS about the a$$holes we deal with...and his insight is specific to each one
Children are most assuredly "of God"...they give so much joy
Religion is bull$hit
Karma REALLY works...i.e....what goes around comes around, from the bible "I will trouble them that trouble you"
But most importantly, I've learned that people do NOT determine who God is or what God can do. I think that 9 times out of 10, God works in SPITE of most people.
Mrs. Lingo and I both agree with Chwester in that we don't have an aversion to fellowshipping with Trinitarians anymore. Oh wait, "Mrs. Lingo" wants to say it herself:
"You know, there are a**hole trinitarians and a**hole non trinitarians. I have known people all along in TWI who walked in the love of God, and many who did not. Right now one of my very best friends is a trinitarian Christian, and God blesses her life and we walk in the love of God towards each other and we just get along famously. Between my "trinitarian" friend and my ex twi friend (of 20 yrs.), I have more trust in the "trinitarian" friend to correctly defend and protect my children, if needed, than the ex twi buddy. Less judgemental, more of the love of God when it gets down to nitty-gritty.
I used to get so perplexed sometimes when I was "in the field" when people with little or no knowledge of the Word, were so much more kind than many so-called believers.
There are people with heart and love, and people without...no matter how they are labeled.
Well Mrs. Lingo, thank you for illustrating my last post. I have alot of trouble with the idea propagated in PFAL that "knowledge" is the ultimate end, and "principles" define our relationship with Jesus Christ and our fellow humans.
Thanks ~ and I definately have seen that myself, at one time or another.
I could not even begin to entertain putting myself, my trust, or my life and the people that matter most to me, in any 'outer fringes' hands...for sure.
Wow! Thanks guys! "Luannayoubeautiful" was really blessed by your responses! She doesn't come to the GS Cafe much, but, she wanted to make a contribution on this thread when I pointed it out to her... :)-->
I'm intrigued that one of the common things people have held onto from PFAL:
"JC is not God"
Why?
I'm curious, because I can think of no other Wierwillian doctrine that seemingly did more to demote the status of Jesus (next to the gospels containing Jesus' words not being for us) which may have contributed more leeway and opportunity for Wierwille toward propping himself up as "God" in Jesus' place.
Personally I'm extremely cynical about VPW's true motives behind teaching this. And I don't speak at all as an adherent of the Trinitarian position or system (Jesus was taught and thought as God long before that formula came along, as I at least observe in the early Patristic literature).
I'll confess to being the biggest oddball here, but I just don't "get" it, why folks continue to zealously stand upon this position.
quote:Those of you who are so sure of the exact identity of the Godhead, the state of the dead, so-called 'administrations', etc, etc, what's to lose if you chuck it all? Nothing, if those things are true. They'll come back 'atcha from 'clean' sources, with no Ohio turds floating in the mix.. Are you afraid you'll, like, backslide or something?
Although I agree with Paradiseden and Johniam, the above statement by Evan is a good one. I no longer rely on just one group or religion for truth, and the things I do have strong faith on (like salvation by grace, Christ in You, the hope of glody, SIT, etc.) I don't believe will go away even when exploring other views. We learned in TWI that we are children of God and I totally believe that... even if we explore other views it won't change our sonship; even those who now say they aren't christians or children of God having eternal life...I don't believe them, because of Jesus's life and sacrifice.
I've changed my mind on a few things too, thanks to Greasepot (like the seed boy teaching, believing=receiving, etc.)
I do not believe that believing that Jesus Christ is not God demotes Jesus Christ. Because Jesus Christ was a man (tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin Hebrews 4:15) it ELEVATES his standing.
Also, John 14:12 says the works that Jesus Christ did we can do...and greater works. I have not come close to doing the works that Jesus Christ did. If Jesus Christ was God, I could not imagine even thinking I could do some of the things God did.
Because Jesus Christ was a man....it makes his accomplishments all the more astonishing and remarkable.
I see your point and understand totally and actually agree with you. VPW's teaching about who Jesus was and is was ambiguous. In private, he would say one thing, and then teach another thing publicly. I think he was possibly confused about the whole subject.
I also agree with Paradiseden, and add that Jesus Christ is worthy of our worship, praise, thanksgiving, prayer etc. I do not understand those exwayfers who claim that honoring Jesus Chirst as Lord and Saviour is "idolatry." And can only think that it's a PFAL hangover. -->
Sheesh, it was God's idea, after all, to exalt him, give him a name above every name, make him Lord and Saviour, the Way, the Truth, the Life, etc. To honor the Son, is to honor the Father. VPW didn't have a problem with this in private, I don't know why he didn't publicly teach more about it. One of the perplexing contradictions of PFAL, I guess.
I kept the belief that I can't figure out how to do anything on my own without consulting my leadership.
And the idea that I should tell my leadership everything about my life - where I go every minute of the day, where I spend every penny and things like that.
I kept the idea that I should have no contact with people outside the way except to try and convert them.
I kept the belief that I shouldn't question why leaders do anything, or ask why things that are bad one day are OK the next.
I've shared some of this before, but from April of '99 to January of 2000 I attended a Presbyterian church. The pastor was definitely a trinitarian and he said it about every other sermon. I liked the pastor and the people in the church so me and the 2 other exway families in the church didn't make waves. We were exway and we were willing to hear another point of view. Miracles happen, eh?
One Sunday, the pastor preached a sermon titled 'Trust and obey' and the first scripture he read from was Luke 22:42 where Jesus says "Father let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not my will but thine be done." His point was that even Jesus had to struggle with the concept of trust and obey sometimes. Okay, if he knows that Jesus was human, tempted in all points, etc. then somewhere in his mind he knows that Jesus is not really God the creator of the heaven and the earth.
Sure, the pastor would never verbalize that JC is not God because peer pressure coerces him otherwise but he knows somewhere in his mind that JC is human. LOTS of trinitarians like that. Even VPW in AC '79 did not say ALL trinitarians are possessed, just those who are ADAMANT about the trinity.
Ex10, there is a difference between "worship" and "honoring JC as Lord and Savior" isn't there? Perhaps we'd better define our terms. There's a thread on the x rated forum where Adiosmicorazon says her husband worships her. I don't think that means he thinks she's God. Consider that in the OT God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent because real serpents were killing Israelites and the brass one cured them if they touched it, or something. Then about a thousand yrs later, Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpent because people were worshipping it. JC, like that brass serpent, was given by God for deliverance, but if worshipped as God, then also like that brass serpent, he becomes a snare.
But unlike the brass serpent, we can't destroy JC, just destroy the idolatry along with the other works of the devil we're supposed to destroy in our lives. I definitely honor JC as Lord and Savior, but I don't worship him as God.
By the way, ex, you said...
I have alot of trouble with the idea propagated in PFAL that "knowledge" is the ultimate end, and "principles" define our relationship with Jesus Christ and our fellow humans.
I didn't infer that from PFAL, but I totally agree that knowledge without love is puffed up. That's what you meant, isn't it?
Does anyone have a copy of whatever Dr. called "The Red Thread?" You know, the thing about each book in the bible regarding Jesus Christ being represented in them? I would love to have a copy of it. I don't come here very often, so please e-mail it to me.
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J0nny Ling0
JC is not God
To whom it is written is very important for understanding what you are reading
SIT-evidence that I have holy spirit
Chapter and verses devoid of authority
4 crucified
My God! My God! For this purpose was I spared!
Getting quiet and peaceful in order to receive from God, be it an answer to prayer, or a still small voice which is, I guess, the same thing.
I do still believe that "fear is sand in the machinery of life" and have taught my kids the same...
The how to receive is to believe...
God's ability equals His willingness
Body soul and spirit
God's Word is His Will
It's Christ in me the hope of glory! (and if there are a thousand believers with Christ in them who know the power within, we can chop old Satan's ears off a thousand times!) Yeah, I still love that statement, sorry...
:)-->
John 14:12- "For the works that I do, ye shall do also...."
And many others I guess
Never did understand "needs and wants parallel though..
You may say that so much of this can be found elswhere, and this is true. I believe it is all found in the Bible for instance. But since you asked which it was that I have kept from PFAL, and since these things were first layed out to me in PFAL, I would have to say that "these are the things from PFAL that I have kept.."
And so it doesn't matter to me WHERE I learned it. These things make sense to me biblically, and for me to "chuck these beliefs" because of who it was that pointed it out to me doesn't seem logical...
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on January 11, 2004 at 12:53.]
[This message was edited by Jonny Lingo on January 11, 2004 at 13:09.]
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ex10
Many things that you guys have mentioned, I also believe. I guess my problem with the PFAL material is the underlying gnostic/metaphysical approach to God and the scriptures. I found it so confusing to sort it all out, that it was impeding my relationship with Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour.
And I still believe that he is the subject of the entire bible, from Gensis to Revelation. And Christianity is about relationship with God, through Jesus Christ above all else. And being led by his holy spirit.
:)-->
And Evan, I don't care of I'm sliding on my back, my front, or my side, as long as I'm sliding towards Jesus Christ.
;)-->
[This message was edited by ex10 on January 11, 2004 at 13:22.]
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Pirate1974
What have I kept from PFAL?
Only the thought that it was a waste of $150.00.
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Oakspear
I don't believe that the bible is the 100% true "Word of God" anymore, and am not a Christian, so most doesn't apply for me anymore.
I do think that most of his "keys to research" were valid ways to study the bible.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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rascal
Agreed Evan and others..... I didn`t start healing untill I tossed everything....started from scratch ....admitting that I didn`t know WHAT was truth anymore (or even IF there was a God) .......the *truths* that I had accepted had been taught by liars, greedy manipulative theives .... it would be nuts to beleive that it was untainted...PLUS it didn`t work....never really HAD worked very well.
(So much of what we revered in twi doctrine ....really whether right or wrong seem to be unimportant in the whole scheme of things)
I eventually realised either their *formuals were flawed or God was...
It`s really cool though...What was seemingly important (and much of what was dismissed by twi) has been retaught from *sanitary* sources.... many not even christian...but it seems after I learn ....understand it ....I always get a little dig in the ribs.......and it`s almost as if someone is saying... I am glad that you *get* it now...but lookit here...even though you DON`T like scriptures...lol it IS in the bible too.......( i seem to always be taught in sources of three)
I think that it is cool that God is willing to go to the effort of continuing my education outside the scripture I am humbled that he cares enough to do so.
No more turds in MY soup please.
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chwester
JC is not God
The dead are not alive
speaking in tongues
Not so sure about the "cry of triumph" - but dont really care about that one, either way.
Most of what Jonny Lingo stated.
One thing I really let go of is the idea that believing in the trinity is "devilish and evil". If it was so bad then God would not be heaping such huge blessings on so many "orthodox" ministries. It's not a big deal. Refusing to fellowship with trinitarians is pure arrogance. They love God and love and serve others as much or more than any Way or Ex-wayers ever have.
Proud to be an American
www.northpoint.org
www.anncoulter.org
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Cindy!
I pretty much tossed it all out and started over.
Here is what I've come up with so far...I believe:
in prayer...there is power there
God talks to us....otherwise I would NOT have made it through the divorce...God kept me sane
God KNOWS about the a$$holes we deal with...and his insight is specific to each one
Children are most assuredly "of God"...they give so much joy
Religion is bull$hit
Karma REALLY works...i.e....what goes around comes around, from the bible "I will trouble them that trouble you"
But most importantly, I've learned that people do NOT determine who God is or what God can do. I think that 9 times out of 10, God works in SPITE of most people.
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J0nny Ling0
Mrs. Lingo and I both agree with Chwester in that we don't have an aversion to fellowshipping with Trinitarians anymore. Oh wait, "Mrs. Lingo" wants to say it herself:
"You know, there are a**hole trinitarians and a**hole non trinitarians. I have known people all along in TWI who walked in the love of God, and many who did not. Right now one of my very best friends is a trinitarian Christian, and God blesses her life and we walk in the love of God towards each other and we just get along famously. Between my "trinitarian" friend and my ex twi friend (of 20 yrs.), I have more trust in the "trinitarian" friend to correctly defend and protect my children, if needed, than the ex twi buddy. Less judgemental, more of the love of God when it gets down to nitty-gritty.
I used to get so perplexed sometimes when I was "in the field" when people with little or no knowledge of the Word, were so much more kind than many so-called believers.
There are people with heart and love, and people without...no matter how they are labeled.
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alfakat
jl, tell mrs lingo she rocks--that is what it all comes down to...love never fails and in this life, the BEST we can do is know in Part....
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ex10
Well Mrs. Lingo, thank you for illustrating my last post. I have alot of trouble with the idea propagated in PFAL that "knowledge" is the ultimate end, and "principles" define our relationship with Jesus Christ and our fellow humans.
Love to you and yours.
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Ginger Tea
It's so obvious now, isn't it?
Thanks ~ and I definately have seen that myself, at one time or another.
I could not even begin to entertain putting myself, my trust, or my life and the people that matter most to me, in any 'outer fringes' hands...for sure.
Hey, we live and learn.
Thanks.
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J0nny Ling0
Wow! Thanks guys! "Luannayoubeautiful" was really blessed by your responses! She doesn't come to the GS Cafe much, but, she wanted to make a contribution on this thread when I pointed it out to her...
:)-->
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TheInvisibleDan
I'm intrigued that one of the common things people have held onto from PFAL:
"JC is not God"
Why?
I'm curious, because I can think of no other Wierwillian doctrine that seemingly did more to demote the status of Jesus (next to the gospels containing Jesus' words not being for us) which may have contributed more leeway and opportunity for Wierwille toward propping himself up as "God" in Jesus' place.
Personally I'm extremely cynical about VPW's true motives behind teaching this. And I don't speak at all as an adherent of the Trinitarian position or system (Jesus was taught and thought as God long before that formula came along, as I at least observe in the early Patristic literature).
I'll confess to being the biggest oddball here, but I just don't "get" it, why folks continue to zealously stand upon this position.
Okay, you can go back to ignoring me.
Danny
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WordWolf
A LOT of the really important things of God are NOT matters involving
study of some new Greek word or something-
they're "heart" matters that can't be learned in a class.
Kit,
you trashed your copy of "Babylon Mystery Religion."
Did you ever get "the Babylon Connection", also by Woodrow?
Basically, it corrects the mistakes of the previous book, and
repudiates it.
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oldiesman
Although I agree with Paradiseden and Johniam, the above statement by Evan is a good one. I no longer rely on just one group or religion for truth, and the things I do have strong faith on (like salvation by grace, Christ in You, the hope of glody, SIT, etc.) I don't believe will go away even when exploring other views. We learned in TWI that we are children of God and I totally believe that... even if we explore other views it won't change our sonship; even those who now say they aren't christians or children of God having eternal life...I don't believe them, because of Jesus's life and sacrifice.
I've changed my mind on a few things too, thanks to Greasepot (like the seed boy teaching, believing=receiving, etc.)
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def59
Johniam:
You said:
What have I kept from PFAL?
1) Salvation is by grace (Romans 10:9&10).
Me - yep, but that came before pfal.
2) SIT.
me- not so sure TWI had it right.
3) JC is not God.
me- I am convinced otherwise.
4) The dead are dead.
me ? not necessarily.
5) The gathering together will happen before the events of the book of Revelation.
me- most definitely not.
6) Prayer in the spirit lifts the burden better than prayer with the understanding.
me ? see No.2
7) The 7 church epistles are in order according to doctrine, reproof, and correction.
me- not so sure, and there were nine letters (Corinthins and Thessalonians) and the idea came from Bullinger.
8) You can't lose incorruptible seed.
me- depends on who you talk to.
9) Religion is the biblical opposite of godliness.
me- this was taught by the most religious (legalistic) man I know.
10) The bible interprets itself.
11) Puctuation, chapters, verses, paragraphs, page headings, etc. are man made and have no divine authority in rightly dividing the word.
me - true, but this doctrine allowed vpw to change the Bible to fit what he wanted it to say.
12) Christ did not say why have you forsaken me, but rather, for this purpose was I spared (cry of triumph).
me ? he did say it, because he was quoting Psalms.
13) God doesn't kill people.
me- God allows things to happen for His purposes. He is sovereign.
14) The old testament, the gospels, and the book of Revelation are not written to the church of grace.
me- this was a nice dodge by vpw that allowed him to negate the words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Christ founded the church, created the world, so his words are definitely written to me.
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Paradiseden
TheInvisibleDan
I do not believe that believing that Jesus Christ is not God demotes Jesus Christ. Because Jesus Christ was a man (tempted in all points like as we are yet without sin Hebrews 4:15) it ELEVATES his standing.
Also, John 14:12 says the works that Jesus Christ did we can do...and greater works. I have not come close to doing the works that Jesus Christ did. If Jesus Christ was God, I could not imagine even thinking I could do some of the things God did.
Because Jesus Christ was a man....it makes his accomplishments all the more astonishing and remarkable.
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ex10
Dan
I see your point and understand totally and actually agree with you. VPW's teaching about who Jesus was and is was ambiguous. In private, he would say one thing, and then teach another thing publicly. I think he was possibly confused about the whole subject.
I also agree with Paradiseden, and add that Jesus Christ is worthy of our worship, praise, thanksgiving, prayer etc. I do not understand those exwayfers who claim that honoring Jesus Chirst as Lord and Saviour is "idolatry." And can only think that it's a PFAL hangover.
-->
Sheesh, it was God's idea, after all, to exalt him, give him a name above every name, make him Lord and Saviour, the Way, the Truth, the Life, etc. To honor the Son, is to honor the Father. VPW didn't have a problem with this in private, I don't know why he didn't publicly teach more about it. One of the perplexing contradictions of PFAL, I guess.
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My3Cents
I kept the belief that I can't figure out how to do anything on my own without consulting my leadership.
And the idea that I should tell my leadership everything about my life - where I go every minute of the day, where I spend every penny and things like that.
I kept the idea that I should have no contact with people outside the way except to try and convert them.
I kept the belief that I shouldn't question why leaders do anything, or ask why things that are bad one day are OK the next.
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Tom Strange
hey! I still have all my "stuff"! HAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm waiting to make "one meeelyun dollars" on EBAY!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Tom Strange
oh... but the rest of the "how to live life crap"???? I've kept nothing that I didn't already have before... I was lucky, I had good parents!
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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johniam
I've shared some of this before, but from April of '99 to January of 2000 I attended a Presbyterian church. The pastor was definitely a trinitarian and he said it about every other sermon. I liked the pastor and the people in the church so me and the 2 other exway families in the church didn't make waves. We were exway and we were willing to hear another point of view. Miracles happen, eh?
One Sunday, the pastor preached a sermon titled 'Trust and obey' and the first scripture he read from was Luke 22:42 where Jesus says "Father let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not my will but thine be done." His point was that even Jesus had to struggle with the concept of trust and obey sometimes. Okay, if he knows that Jesus was human, tempted in all points, etc. then somewhere in his mind he knows that Jesus is not really God the creator of the heaven and the earth.
Sure, the pastor would never verbalize that JC is not God because peer pressure coerces him otherwise but he knows somewhere in his mind that JC is human. LOTS of trinitarians like that. Even VPW in AC '79 did not say ALL trinitarians are possessed, just those who are ADAMANT about the trinity.
Ex10, there is a difference between "worship" and "honoring JC as Lord and Savior" isn't there? Perhaps we'd better define our terms. There's a thread on the x rated forum where Adiosmicorazon says her husband worships her. I don't think that means he thinks she's God. Consider that in the OT God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent because real serpents were killing Israelites and the brass one cured them if they touched it, or something. Then about a thousand yrs later, Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpent because people were worshipping it. JC, like that brass serpent, was given by God for deliverance, but if worshipped as God, then also like that brass serpent, he becomes a snare.
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johniam
But unlike the brass serpent, we can't destroy JC, just destroy the idolatry along with the other works of the devil we're supposed to destroy in our lives. I definitely honor JC as Lord and Savior, but I don't worship him as God.
By the way, ex, you said...
I have alot of trouble with the idea propagated in PFAL that "knowledge" is the ultimate end, and "principles" define our relationship with Jesus Christ and our fellow humans.
I didn't infer that from PFAL, but I totally agree that knowledge without love is puffed up. That's what you meant, isn't it?
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St. John
Does anyone have a copy of whatever Dr. called "The Red Thread?" You know, the thing about each book in the bible regarding Jesus Christ being represented in them? I would love to have a copy of it. I don't come here very often, so please e-mail it to me.
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