(Form an innie) Should you go back? That's a good question!!! My question to you is - how much healing have you done on your own???? Things are changing, not as fast as some would like, but it is. The truth is we, as a body as a whole - most of are going through our own healing processes. Somethings in a lot of ways are pretty anemic. Sunday Services and Way Mag's are pretty boring. Most of the really good teachers, people who knew how to do things well, left - with good reason. It left a lot of people holding the ball who had to learn how to catch real fast. Depending on where you live, it could be a good thing for you to return - or not. Some areas are little slower than others. There no longer is a systematic, regimented way of doing things. A lot is left up to the local areas to work in the way they need to, to meet the needs of their people.
Just to let you know how some things have changed. HQ pays people salary for what they are worth and can live off grounds in a house they chose. They get paid - up to them when to take - vacations. They got retro retirement (and a current plan in place) They get med. insurance, can go to college while on staff, no one works over 46 hrs per week, inculding lunches. They can even have a side business. They don't have to stay in the dining hall for lunch time - they get to go anywhere they want to as long as they are back when luch is over.
I openly discussed my concerns with my branch co-or a couple of weeks ago, in my fellowship, and I had a lot of them. We sat with everyone around and had a great time. It turned out my fellowship had some of the same concerns I did.
EEWWW EEWWW my limb co-or has a pet - actually a large dog to be exact. On paid staff salary no less.
I invite anyone to ask me questions as long as it is done in genuine love and concern. You wouldn't want to burned at the stake either. I've already done that to myself a few times.
Before you or anyone goes back - please seek God to work out your own wholeness.
You'll be welcomed but not pressured - we have people come and go as they please - we just love them and bless them when we can.
I invite anyone to ask me questions as long as it is done in genuine love and concern. You wouldn't want to burned at the stake either. I've already done that to myself a few times.
Before you or anyone goes back - please seek God to work out your own wholeness.
You'll be welcomed but not pressured - we have people come and go as they please - we just love them and bless them when we can.
Well -- you're certainly brave if nothing else!.. :)
Yes, I think most of us have done the research/internet thing and we talk about what we find from time to time. I also discuss it with friends from other parts of the country openly. Some of their leadership are not so open but don't tell them what to do.
Howdy djs! I'm not 'going back' so there's nothing hanging on the answer to this question. Feel free to answer, or if not that's fine too.
I've been long gone from the Way, since '89, and was involved for about 21 years prior to that.
I would describe those times as being now "fully vested". :) That is to say, as my life's continued it's been informed by those years, what I learned, the people I knew and still do, etc. Life goes on and I'm happy, my family, etc.
One thing I wonder about is if and when the Way board of trustees and current offices and leaders are ever going to deal openly, publicly, with the events of the last 20 years or so. I know, that sounds like ancient history, but it's not to those who left the way over that period of time.
For instance, the "lawsuit" of the Allen's, no small event. There were many, many issues that came up in and around that event, yet I've never heard from anyone that any of those issues were ever dealt with by the Way, to try and clarify what went on, and what it was all about. Am I wrong about that? What was the range of information you were given about that?
100's of people have questions and concerns that could be answered. Not easily, I know a lot of it is difficult to deal with, but not impossible especially when you consider that there's a certain amount of responsibility the Way trustees have to their congregation.
Another example would be the people who did get "M and A'd", under extremely difficult circumstances. I understand that you're saying the Way is going through it's own "healing" process and that it's members are benefitting from that - but - again, there's a responsibility to those who WERE members, to have some kind of resolution and closure, don't you think?
If you'd bought a car 5 years ago, and it blew up on the road, how would you feel if you went to the company and told them and they said "Oh we fixed that problem. They don't do that anymore. Bye."
That would't be fair would it? Or would it, I'm asking the question to get your feedback. I don't mean to put you on the spot, and I know it's not within your range to speak for the Trustees and what they do or don't do. But I'm wondering what you're feedback would be. Thanks.
The leadership that was so awful and controling to my family is still in place. These men exhibited malice and no love or spiritual understanding, all in the name of TWI. And it wasn't a one time mistake--their attitudes were around for Years
What changes have taken place that assure that systemic control issues won't return under the guise of 'follow your leadership'? Isn't it still who you know--If I know the LC will back me, than I don't have to let the BC push me around-- lifestyle?
I'm raising children. The last place I would take them is the Way International, so they can get chewed up in the next 'obey your leadership' round. Why throw my children, who I love, to dogs that will rend and tear them? I am not insane!
"A lot is left up to the local areas to work in the way they need to, to meet the needs of their people. "
"The leadership that was so awful and controling to my family is still in place"
I'm with Bramble on this one. The people who gave such detrimintal counseling to my family are still leadership here. Their counseling ultimately played a big role in destroying my family and included things like it being okay to hit a toddler with a spoon hard enough to leave bruises.
It isn't enough to just leave everything to local leaders, especially local leaders who were well schooled in the Martindale School of Leading via Abuse. IN fact, that is a cop-out. So what the board can now say they didn't authorize that counseling? But they did, by leaving these poorly trained schmucks in place.
Hi djs. Yes I can see and understand what you are saying about how twi is trying to change its stripes. I see the same people are still at the top. The same ones that stood behind vp and lcm and let them (vp and lcm) run rampent and hurt or destroy peoples lives. They are all still there in their cozy homes with pools and all the comforts. They don't lead the style that they wish for you to live. To the contrary. According to them they will tell you all about "Worldly things" and how bad they are but they live that life style they say you should not live.
I really am glad to see you post and give us the insight of how things have changed. It sounds like they are trying to bring back the twi 60's - 70's. Just remember this, it was corrupt then and IMHO still is today. Don't think for a second what your job is to them. It is to bring them money. twi is a scam.
It is people like you who do have the love of God in your heart and want to bring people to God. If I read your posts right you are like the thousands of others that truly want(ed) to help people.
IMO twi roots are rotten to the corps and that has not changed. I will never go back and will never try to push someone to go to or go back to twi (unless I don't like them, heheheheh a joke)
IMO again they have changed their stripes but are the same beast that they ALWAYS were.
I would love to see one of the bot's come here and apolgize for the wrongs that have been done. Not for us to go talk to them. It was their evil ways that drove us out of twi so it should be them that come talk to us. Oh they can't come and talk to us because of the Peeler case that is pending. More abs down the drain to cover their sorry arses.
The leadership that was so awful and controling to my family is still in place.
Same here. Not only in place, but quite prominently. So not much has changed there.
But what I would really like to know is, when is The Way International going to acknowledge the harm they did to thousands of people by their hurtful policies by contacting each of them and apologizing to each one? They KNOW who we are, they HAVE our names in their "book of life." It's not that hard to track someone down. Their lawyers do it all the time.
If they truly believe that their tactics were wrong, then they should publicly say so to the people they wronged.
The only reason for them NOT to, is that it really isn't that important to them to acknowlege the extent of the damage they inflicted. Or, ah, yes, we remain a legal liability. Because if they admitted what they did was wrong, then they'd have to pay for the resulting damages.
Which means we really still don't matter to them.
And if we don't really matter to them, why should anyone bother? Nothingreally changed.
And if nothing really changed, the ugly beast is still there, biding it's time. Only we won't be it's next victims. Guess who will be?
Don't you see that the only reason they changed anything at all was because the money was leaving with the people who left????
This is the same m.o. TWI adopted after the Passing of the Poop paper and Geer left with all those folks. The ministry had shrunk along with it's coffers. So the ministry became more "sweet," more "loving," more "personal." The BOT made sure TWI was a "kinder, gentler" organization for a few years and meanwhile built their base of loyalty back. Then once they were again in a position of power, they put the screws to us.
Same old cycle of abuse is occuring again. Just wait, you'll see. Give it several more years, more or less. But I'd bet money on it happening again down the line.
Most of the really good teachers, people who knew how to do things well, left - with good reason. It left a lot of people holding the ball who had to learn how to catch real fast.
Hiya djs, welcome to the cafe!
I have to disagree with your statement that they left, leaving shows free will and many of the most talented were ran off. LCM made sure to rid TWI of any competition.
LCM stripped me and many others of our accomplishments from years of service, if we return would those be restored? Do we still need to follow LCM's mandates and contact the last leader we had and follow their instructions proving we aren't weak and will not weaken the household?
Are they openly in their teachings and on their web site proclaiming all are always welcome at the Way?
Should you go back? That's a good question!!! My question to you is - how much healing have you done on your own????
djs,
To me, "healing" is not the issue........but I will say, that having exited twi some eight years ago, I am MORE joyful, peaceful, blessed, thankful, etc. Does that count? :)
As far as going back to twi.......................WHY?
Why would I possibly even want to go back? I walked away from THEIR legalism.
Why would I desire to "test the water for piranha" again?
Twi is a small stinky, infested pond. The Bible is an OCEAN OF LIFE.
LCM stripped me and many others of our accomplishments from years of service, if we return would those be restored?
In order to "restore" your accomplishments from years of service, they would have to "restore" you in the eyes of the people there. How do you erase the ugly defamations and slander that were screamed from the pulpit and microphones and across phone lines for years, mounted against you and others?
How do you unspeak those words and get those people to unthink those thoughts?
Yeah. Unbreak my heart.
Can't be done.
And if they had to pay out damages, it would bankrupt the organization. That's why they will never publicly apologize. It admits guilt, which opens the doors for a tsunami of litigation they would be sure to lose.
Despite my brief answer farther up the page , it really is a moot point for me regarding going back. Since leaving TWI my religious beliefs have changed enough that I would not be welcome no matter how nice they've become.
But even if that were not the case, I have come to the conclusion that Wierwille's PFAL, though promoted as a class to learn keys to understanding the bible, was really all about manipulating the bible to back up whatever theology Wierwille came up with.
Whether Wierwille was sincere or not isn't even the issue anymore either. At best PFAL was based on scraps and bits from other authors, but ultimately it elevated Wierwille's opinion over the written bible. The scholarship was shoddy, the logic was shaky, and the application was manipulative. One of the reasons that I got involved in TWI: that PFAL offered a reliable method to really understanding the bible, has been revealed to me as a sham and a scam. There is no reason why I would go back to an organization where deception was part of its very foundation.
The other reason that became involved was that I thought that people cared about me. Well, some did, but most didn't. Most cared whether or not I followed the dictates of Wierwille. Even back in the good ol' days when I thought things were great.
In order to "restore" your accomplishments from years of service, they would have to "restore" you in the eyes of the people there. How do you erase the ugly defamations and slander that were screamed from the pulpit and microphones and across phone lines for years, mounted against you and others?
How do you unspeak those words and get those people to unthink those thoughts?
Cosign
cat,
that was the main reason i left. the fact that the only reason any changes were made were BECAUSE of the lawsuit. If no lawsuits were filed. LCM would STILL be in charge, I put my life on that.
And i dont know if DJS was in the way corpse, but the types of things LCM would say about people were horrible.
He would cuss people out and talk about how they are possesed by devil spirits. It would make you cringe.
djs, as you're pondering and puttering, I wanted to add a pet theory of mine. It's not based on thin air, but I won't get into the details unless we end up getting a dicussion going and you're interested.
Point - a lot of time and words have been devoted to the need for forgiveness amongst those who have been, or feel they've been wronged by the Way, it's teachings and it's employees. (and if you consider what "hurt" actually is to a person, the perception of wrong is a valid type of concern). In so many words there's been a coneyance that those who have left and have a problem should forgive, forget and quit bellyaching.
Point - it's been said by more than one person that if an ex-Wayfer who has "issues" with the Way, it's teachings or employees doesn't forgive and move on they'll never really heal from their hurt and will only stew in their own diseased soup, ad nauseum. IE - they're just hurting themselves in the end, no one else.
My Pet Theory - that until the acting Way Trustees take responsiblity for their past and open the door to that very forgiveness and lead the way, they and the Way will never fully heal or recover.
If you follow my Pet Theory, by not doing that which would make it easiest for others to act correctly on the Word (make it "easily entreated") a person stands to make it harder and at best does nothing. At worst they impede correct action and actually make it harder.
They also close the door to what the Way teaches it values most - doctrine, reproof and correction.
This leads to the Bleating Sheep Syndrome. Without a shepherd to care for the sheep they struggle.
Would any true pastor working for the Chief Shepherd ignore them?
My commenta are to Socks. WoW, I couldn't have said it better. I've had some of the same thoughts that you wrote about regarding the Trustees making things right - you just made it more complete for me.
My husband and I have tossed around that there's a good possiblity that it will take the "old leadership" to die away before we see any real drastic change. A new generation!!!!! Kind of like the children of Israel and the Promised Land. They weren't allowed to go in because of their unbelief and unthankfulness toward God.
It would be really nice to have the wrongs righted. I pray and SIT often that there will be changes like that and so does people in my fellowship - in the actual meeting. Other innies I speak to about this to do the same. Not everyone hates the people who went M&A or think they are still evil and all that crap. We (I) would like to see it righted from the top. Maybe it could happen - who knows. Bigger things have happened through out history.
My comments are to Socks. WoW, I couldn't have said it better. I've had some of the same thoughts that you wrote about regarding the Trustees making things right - you just made it more complete for me.
My husband and I have tossed around that there's a good possiblity that it will take the "old leadership" to die away before we see any real drastic change. A new generation!!!!! Kind of like the children of Israel and the Promised Land. They weren't allowed to go in because of their unbelief and unthankfulness toward God.
It would be really nice to have the wrongs righted. I pray and SIT often that there will be changes like that and so does people in my fellowship - in the actual meeting. Other innies I speak to about this to do the same. Not everyone hates the people who went M&A or think they are still evil and all that crap. We (I) would like to see it righted from the top. Maybe it could happen - who knows. Bigger things have happened through out history.
My husband and I have tossed around that there's a good possiblity that it will take the "old leadership" to die away before we see any real drastic change. A new generation!!!!! Kind of like the children of Israel and the Promised Land. They weren't allowed to go in because of their unbelief and unthankfulness toward God.
Why stay around another 10-15 years in a truly sick organization simply waiting for corrupted leadership to die off?
Just because the children of Israel had to wander around in the desert doesn't mean YOU have to...
This way out ------->
And what, then after the old folk die off, there will be another person there who will rise up and declare that the organization is now clean and can be re-declared as the organization with the corner on Truth?
DJS, You show some real honesty and courage in continuing to talk with us..... your actions here show that you really are trying to be genuinly caring.
I can respect you for that.
You seem like a person of integrety......have you considered what will happen when folks who are attracted to twi or stay involved because they see how great you and your husband are.....have you considered how it will be when they leave your sphere of influence?
Are they going to assume that all of twi is going to treat them with the honesty and caring that you do?
Is that fair to let people assume that twi as an organization is healthy spiritually ...basing their perceptions on what they see in your lives.....when you know that the top leadership are corrupt and that you are simply waiting for them to die off?
Are there more corrupt people in line for the positions waiting for their turn at the helm?
What I am trying to say...and not any to tactfully...... is that you must consider that your integrety and love for God are what people see when they see twi..... as they become deeper involved....are they going to be bullied? are they going to be hurt? are they going to be exposed to the corrupt leaders?
I see in you what we were 15 years ago...honest and caring fighting for our ministry, loving people teaching the bible......problem was that the people that we *ministered* to, ended up being deeply hurt further down the line....people trusted twi and its leaders to be Godly and honorable and were deeply wounded.......because they trusted us......
You must consider what your lives, what your love and character are covering for....no matter how good your intentions....Even though you personally are Godly and your efforts selfless........you are introducing people to a group who`s current leaders are not :(
Also people that are going to be the future leaders are "groomed" to take over. The new leadership that is picked to "keep on keeping on" with the tradition of twi. The people that are going to take over will also be very jaded people and the corruption will continue. JMHO
The only way for twi to come clean and to really change is to start with a public apology then start changing their doctrine. I wont for a second believe twi is changing until that public apology is made. Even then I will be a skeptic but it is a start in the right direction.
.....have you considered what will happen when folks who are attracted to twi or stay involved because they see how great you and your husband are.....have you considered how it will be when they leave your sphere of influence?
Are they going to assume that all of twi is going to treat them with the honesty and caring that you do?
Over the years we were involved in TWI I cannot count the number of times that we poured our hearts and lives into growing and healing an area, into a couple, or into a person... only to have them totally devastated by the next change in leadership.
There is no way you can guarantee these people won't be reinjured or decimated by the next person.
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No, we shouldn't (to answer the question the title of this thread asks)
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djs
(Form an innie) Should you go back? That's a good question!!! My question to you is - how much healing have you done on your own???? Things are changing, not as fast as some would like, but it is. The truth is we, as a body as a whole - most of are going through our own healing processes. Somethings in a lot of ways are pretty anemic. Sunday Services and Way Mag's are pretty boring. Most of the really good teachers, people who knew how to do things well, left - with good reason. It left a lot of people holding the ball who had to learn how to catch real fast. Depending on where you live, it could be a good thing for you to return - or not. Some areas are little slower than others. There no longer is a systematic, regimented way of doing things. A lot is left up to the local areas to work in the way they need to, to meet the needs of their people.
Just to let you know how some things have changed. HQ pays people salary for what they are worth and can live off grounds in a house they chose. They get paid - up to them when to take - vacations. They got retro retirement (and a current plan in place) They get med. insurance, can go to college while on staff, no one works over 46 hrs per week, inculding lunches. They can even have a side business. They don't have to stay in the dining hall for lunch time - they get to go anywhere they want to as long as they are back when luch is over.
I openly discussed my concerns with my branch co-or a couple of weeks ago, in my fellowship, and I had a lot of them. We sat with everyone around and had a great time. It turned out my fellowship had some of the same concerns I did.
EEWWW EEWWW my limb co-or has a pet - actually a large dog to be exact. On paid staff salary no less.
I invite anyone to ask me questions as long as it is done in genuine love and concern. You wouldn't want to burned at the stake either. I've already done that to myself a few times.
Before you or anyone goes back - please seek God to work out your own wholeness.
You'll be welcomed but not pressured - we have people come and go as they please - we just love them and bless them when we can.
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dmiller
Well -- you're certainly brave if nothing else!.. :)
Do they know you are posting here?
I guess that can be the first question. ;)
David
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djs
Yes, I think most of us have done the research/internet thing and we talk about what we find from time to time. I also discuss it with friends from other parts of the country openly. Some of their leadership are not so open but don't tell them what to do.
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socks
Howdy djs! I'm not 'going back' so there's nothing hanging on the answer to this question. Feel free to answer, or if not that's fine too.
I've been long gone from the Way, since '89, and was involved for about 21 years prior to that.
I would describe those times as being now "fully vested". :) That is to say, as my life's continued it's been informed by those years, what I learned, the people I knew and still do, etc. Life goes on and I'm happy, my family, etc.
One thing I wonder about is if and when the Way board of trustees and current offices and leaders are ever going to deal openly, publicly, with the events of the last 20 years or so. I know, that sounds like ancient history, but it's not to those who left the way over that period of time.
For instance, the "lawsuit" of the Allen's, no small event. There were many, many issues that came up in and around that event, yet I've never heard from anyone that any of those issues were ever dealt with by the Way, to try and clarify what went on, and what it was all about. Am I wrong about that? What was the range of information you were given about that?
100's of people have questions and concerns that could be answered. Not easily, I know a lot of it is difficult to deal with, but not impossible especially when you consider that there's a certain amount of responsibility the Way trustees have to their congregation.
Another example would be the people who did get "M and A'd", under extremely difficult circumstances. I understand that you're saying the Way is going through it's own "healing" process and that it's members are benefitting from that - but - again, there's a responsibility to those who WERE members, to have some kind of resolution and closure, don't you think?
If you'd bought a car 5 years ago, and it blew up on the road, how would you feel if you went to the company and told them and they said "Oh we fixed that problem. They don't do that anymore. Bye."
That would't be fair would it? Or would it, I'm asking the question to get your feedback. I don't mean to put you on the spot, and I know it's not within your range to speak for the Trustees and what they do or don't do. But I'm wondering what you're feedback would be. Thanks.
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Bramble
The leadership that was so awful and controling to my family is still in place. These men exhibited malice and no love or spiritual understanding, all in the name of TWI. And it wasn't a one time mistake--their attitudes were around for Years
What changes have taken place that assure that systemic control issues won't return under the guise of 'follow your leadership'? Isn't it still who you know--If I know the LC will back me, than I don't have to let the BC push me around-- lifestyle?
I'm raising children. The last place I would take them is the Way International, so they can get chewed up in the next 'obey your leadership' round. Why throw my children, who I love, to dogs that will rend and tear them? I am not insane!
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Morgan
"A lot is left up to the local areas to work in the way they need to, to meet the needs of their people. "
"The leadership that was so awful and controling to my family is still in place"
I'm with Bramble on this one. The people who gave such detrimintal counseling to my family are still leadership here. Their counseling ultimately played a big role in destroying my family and included things like it being okay to hit a toddler with a spoon hard enough to leave bruises.
It isn't enough to just leave everything to local leaders, especially local leaders who were well schooled in the Martindale School of Leading via Abuse. IN fact, that is a cop-out. So what the board can now say they didn't authorize that counseling? But they did, by leaving these poorly trained schmucks in place.
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justloafing
Hi djs. Yes I can see and understand what you are saying about how twi is trying to change its stripes. I see the same people are still at the top. The same ones that stood behind vp and lcm and let them (vp and lcm) run rampent and hurt or destroy peoples lives. They are all still there in their cozy homes with pools and all the comforts. They don't lead the style that they wish for you to live. To the contrary. According to them they will tell you all about "Worldly things" and how bad they are but they live that life style they say you should not live.
I really am glad to see you post and give us the insight of how things have changed. It sounds like they are trying to bring back the twi 60's - 70's. Just remember this, it was corrupt then and IMHO still is today. Don't think for a second what your job is to them. It is to bring them money. twi is a scam.
It is people like you who do have the love of God in your heart and want to bring people to God. If I read your posts right you are like the thousands of others that truly want(ed) to help people.
IMO twi roots are rotten to the corps and that has not changed. I will never go back and will never try to push someone to go to or go back to twi (unless I don't like them, heheheheh a joke)
IMO again they have changed their stripes but are the same beast that they ALWAYS were.
I would love to see one of the bot's come here and apolgize for the wrongs that have been done. Not for us to go talk to them. It was their evil ways that drove us out of twi so it should be them that come talk to us. Oh they can't come and talk to us because of the Peeler case that is pending. More abs down the drain to cover their sorry arses.
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Catcup
Welcome to the Cafe, djs.
Same here. Not only in place, but quite prominently. So not much has changed there.
But what I would really like to know is, when is The Way International going to acknowledge the harm they did to thousands of people by their hurtful policies by contacting each of them and apologizing to each one? They KNOW who we are, they HAVE our names in their "book of life." It's not that hard to track someone down. Their lawyers do it all the time.
If they truly believe that their tactics were wrong, then they should publicly say so to the people they wronged.
The only reason for them NOT to, is that it really isn't that important to them to acknowlege the extent of the damage they inflicted. Or, ah, yes, we remain a legal liability. Because if they admitted what they did was wrong, then they'd have to pay for the resulting damages.
Which means we really still don't matter to them.
And if we don't really matter to them, why should anyone bother? Nothing really changed.
And if nothing really changed, the ugly beast is still there, biding it's time. Only we won't be it's next victims. Guess who will be?
Don't you see that the only reason they changed anything at all was because the money was leaving with the people who left????
This is the same m.o. TWI adopted after the Passing of the Poop paper and Geer left with all those folks. The ministry had shrunk along with it's coffers. So the ministry became more "sweet," more "loving," more "personal." The BOT made sure TWI was a "kinder, gentler" organization for a few years and meanwhile built their base of loyalty back. Then once they were again in a position of power, they put the screws to us.
Same old cycle of abuse is occuring again. Just wait, you'll see. Give it several more years, more or less. But I'd bet money on it happening again down the line.
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Rejoice
The root was rotten from the beginning. Rotten roots don't produce healthy fruit---ever. It's a law of nature.
If they want to change, they need to do it individually as we all have done. LEAVE, get out of the lofty towers and go back and live an honest life.
Really examine what they were taught and admit to how much of it is so wrong, doctrinally and practically.
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wingnut
Hiya djs, welcome to the cafe!
I have to disagree with your statement that they left, leaving shows free will and many of the most talented were ran off. LCM made sure to rid TWI of any competition.
LCM stripped me and many others of our accomplishments from years of service, if we return would those be restored? Do we still need to follow LCM's mandates and contact the last leader we had and follow their instructions proving we aren't weak and will not weaken the household?
Are they openly in their teachings and on their web site proclaiming all are always welcome at the Way?
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skyrider
djs,
To me, "healing" is not the issue........but I will say, that having exited twi some eight years ago, I am MORE joyful, peaceful, blessed, thankful, etc. Does that count? :)
As far as going back to twi.......................WHY?
Why would I possibly even want to go back? I walked away from THEIR legalism.
Why would I desire to "test the water for piranha" again?
Twi is a small stinky, infested pond. The Bible is an OCEAN OF LIFE.
Go back???????? I'd have to be nucking futs!
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Catcup
In order to "restore" your accomplishments from years of service, they would have to "restore" you in the eyes of the people there. How do you erase the ugly defamations and slander that were screamed from the pulpit and microphones and across phone lines for years, mounted against you and others?
How do you unspeak those words and get those people to unthink those thoughts?
Yeah. Unbreak my heart.
Can't be done.
And if they had to pay out damages, it would bankrupt the organization. That's why they will never publicly apologize. It admits guilt, which opens the doors for a tsunami of litigation they would be sure to lose.
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oldiesman
djs, who gets retro retirement?
Are you talking about folks who worked on staff for 20 or more years, who, because of the past legalistic policies, had to leave or were booted?
Golly, it would be great if these folks, these long-time faithful staff believers, could get retro retirement!
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Catcup
It sure would. Ralph, anybody call you? Tell you about your retro retirement fund?
Anybody else contacted?
If it was retroactive, it should cover anyone who worked for them for a certain amount of years.
Ah, but you probably weren't grandfathered in if they had fired you. I get it.
Yeah, I didn't think so.
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Oakspear
Despite my brief answer farther up the page
, it really is a moot point for me regarding going back. Since leaving TWI my religious beliefs have changed enough that I would not be welcome no matter how nice they've become.
But even if that were not the case, I have come to the conclusion that Wierwille's PFAL, though promoted as a class to learn keys to understanding the bible, was really all about manipulating the bible to back up whatever theology Wierwille came up with.
Whether Wierwille was sincere or not isn't even the issue anymore either. At best PFAL was based on scraps and bits from other authors, but ultimately it elevated Wierwille's opinion over the written bible. The scholarship was shoddy, the logic was shaky, and the application was manipulative. One of the reasons that I got involved in TWI: that PFAL offered a reliable method to really understanding the bible, has been revealed to me as a sham and a scam. There is no reason why I would go back to an organization where deception was part of its very foundation.
The other reason that became involved was that I thought that people cared about me. Well, some did, but most didn't. Most cared whether or not I followed the dictates of Wierwille. Even back in the good ol' days when I thought things were great.
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nandon
Cosign
cat,
that was the main reason i left. the fact that the only reason any changes were made were BECAUSE of the lawsuit. If no lawsuits were filed. LCM would STILL be in charge, I put my life on that.
And i dont know if DJS was in the way corpse, but the types of things LCM would say about people were horrible.
He would cuss people out and talk about how they are possesed by devil spirits. It would make you cringe.
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socks
djs, as you're pondering and puttering, I wanted to add a pet theory of mine. It's not based on thin air, but I won't get into the details unless we end up getting a dicussion going and you're interested.
Point - a lot of time and words have been devoted to the need for forgiveness amongst those who have been, or feel they've been wronged by the Way, it's teachings and it's employees. (and if you consider what "hurt" actually is to a person, the perception of wrong is a valid type of concern). In so many words there's been a coneyance that those who have left and have a problem should forgive, forget and quit bellyaching.
Point - it's been said by more than one person that if an ex-Wayfer who has "issues" with the Way, it's teachings or employees doesn't forgive and move on they'll never really heal from their hurt and will only stew in their own diseased soup, ad nauseum. IE - they're just hurting themselves in the end, no one else.
My Pet Theory - that until the acting Way Trustees take responsiblity for their past and open the door to that very forgiveness and lead the way, they and the Way will never fully heal or recover.
If you follow my Pet Theory, by not doing that which would make it easiest for others to act correctly on the Word (make it "easily entreated") a person stands to make it harder and at best does nothing. At worst they impede correct action and actually make it harder.
They also close the door to what the Way teaches it values most - doctrine, reproof and correction.
This leads to the Bleating Sheep Syndrome. Without a shepherd to care for the sheep they struggle.
Would any true pastor working for the Chief Shepherd ignore them?
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djs
My commenta are to Socks. WoW, I couldn't have said it better. I've had some of the same thoughts that you wrote about regarding the Trustees making things right - you just made it more complete for me.
My husband and I have tossed around that there's a good possiblity that it will take the "old leadership" to die away before we see any real drastic change. A new generation!!!!! Kind of like the children of Israel and the Promised Land. They weren't allowed to go in because of their unbelief and unthankfulness toward God.
It would be really nice to have the wrongs righted. I pray and SIT often that there will be changes like that and so does people in my fellowship - in the actual meeting. Other innies I speak to about this to do the same. Not everyone hates the people who went M&A or think they are still evil and all that crap. We (I) would like to see it righted from the top. Maybe it could happen - who knows. Bigger things have happened through out history.
My comments are to Socks. WoW, I couldn't have said it better. I've had some of the same thoughts that you wrote about regarding the Trustees making things right - you just made it more complete for me.
My husband and I have tossed around that there's a good possiblity that it will take the "old leadership" to die away before we see any real drastic change. A new generation!!!!! Kind of like the children of Israel and the Promised Land. They weren't allowed to go in because of their unbelief and unthankfulness toward God.
It would be really nice to have the wrongs righted. I pray and SIT often that there will be changes like that and so does people in my fellowship - in the actual meeting. Other innies I speak to about this to do the same. Not everyone hates the people who went M&A or think they are still evil and all that crap. We (I) would like to see it righted from the top. Maybe it could happen - who knows. Bigger things have happened through out history.
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dmiller
DJS -- was that last post posted twice
so that it would be *established*?
;)
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Catcup
Why stay around another 10-15 years in a truly sick organization simply waiting for corrupted leadership to die off?
Just because the children of Israel had to wander around in the desert doesn't mean YOU have to...
This way out ------->
And what, then after the old folk die off, there will be another person there who will rise up and declare that the organization is now clean and can be re-declared as the organization with the corner on Truth?
Corrupt. From the getgo.
Get out while you have a moment of clarity....
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rascal
DJS, You show some real honesty and courage in continuing to talk with us..... your actions here show that you really are trying to be genuinly caring.
I can respect you for that.
You seem like a person of integrety......have you considered what will happen when folks who are attracted to twi or stay involved because they see how great you and your husband are.....have you considered how it will be when they leave your sphere of influence?
Are they going to assume that all of twi is going to treat them with the honesty and caring that you do?
Is that fair to let people assume that twi as an organization is healthy spiritually ...basing their perceptions on what they see in your lives.....when you know that the top leadership are corrupt and that you are simply waiting for them to die off?
Are there more corrupt people in line for the positions waiting for their turn at the helm?
What I am trying to say...and not any to tactfully...... is that you must consider that your integrety and love for God are what people see when they see twi..... as they become deeper involved....are they going to be bullied? are they going to be hurt? are they going to be exposed to the corrupt leaders?
I see in you what we were 15 years ago...honest and caring fighting for our ministry, loving people teaching the bible......problem was that the people that we *ministered* to, ended up being deeply hurt further down the line....people trusted twi and its leaders to be Godly and honorable and were deeply wounded.......because they trusted us......
You must consider what your lives, what your love and character are covering for....no matter how good your intentions....Even though you personally are Godly and your efforts selfless........you are introducing people to a group who`s current leaders are not :(
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justloafing
Also people that are going to be the future leaders are "groomed" to take over. The new leadership that is picked to "keep on keeping on" with the tradition of twi. The people that are going to take over will also be very jaded people and the corruption will continue. JMHO
The only way for twi to come clean and to really change is to start with a public apology then start changing their doctrine. I wont for a second believe twi is changing until that public apology is made. Even then I will be a skeptic but it is a start in the right direction.
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Catcup
Over the years we were involved in TWI I cannot count the number of times that we poured our hearts and lives into growing and healing an area, into a couple, or into a person... only to have them totally devastated by the next change in leadership.
There is no way you can guarantee these people won't be reinjured or decimated by the next person.
That's another part of the problem.
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