"So what now? LCM is out, things are moving, people are growing and yes, people are coming back. Not just me but many others. People who stayed on the ship out in the ocean during the rough weather and now are heading into shore over calm seas."
LCM is out? Is he really? Isn't his book still on sale in the bookstore when every other person who left has had his books and music purged from the bookstore? Even two books by Wierwille that were "posthumpously edited" by Chris Geer. Hasn't Martindale's class been used as a foundational class for the last 4 years?
"Maybe not completely calm, but calmer. As one person posted to me on a previous thread - (basically it seemed to me they said) that it's hard to forgive a ministry or even a person when it seems like no one is asking for your forgiveness."
many of us have forgiven, we're just not stupid enough to get fooled again.
"This remains to be true in many ways. The offenders though past or present see God's cleansing power as enough"
Bullshirt! The offenders don't think that they did anything wrong
"and maybe you (and I do mean YOU) got wooded out because their was something wrong with you anyway".
I assumed you mean "weeded out" when yopu say 'wooded out". I can't speak for everybody else, but I got "weeded out" because I posted here on GS and "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction".
That last quote is by far the stupidest thing you've said thus far. Go on back, you and TWI deserve each other.
"Not too many say they are sorry or ask for forgiveness, however, if a person wanted to come back and was willing to forgive the past wrongs - it does take time, no doubt-no doubt! - they would find that miracles are happening with TWI again. I can again say that I've seen amazing things."
I'd be amazed if there was the slightest public admission of past wrong-doing. or the tiniest correction of wrong doctrine. Ain't gonna happen though.
Miracles? Name a few.
"God is ALIVE and is good always."
And what does that have to do with following a corrupt organization?
"I won't say that wrongs weren't done and perpetrators were violaters"
That's more than Rosie and the boyz will say.
"but that's NOT ME and that's not MY ministry."
Sorry to say, that it IS your ministry, even though you didn't personally "violate".
"So I say -if you can't find the Living Word in a church or signs, miracles and wonders, maybe it's time you checked out TWI again because those boys are back in town."
Still waiting to hear about those signs, miracles and wonders. perhaps as ficticious as all the "poer" that yopu saw when you were intop spiritualism or whatver you said you were into before TWI.
"Thank God I can read the Bible;
I can read it too. Too bad TWI doesn't teach it very much.
"Can I get another cup of Java while I'm sitting here? Thanks and heads up, hearts out - ready for another day of believing God's Word."
DO NOT go back. I tried that, as so many others have. As stated earlier in this thread, craig was only one of the manifistations of the disease process there.
I found it only had gotten worse but not immediately evident. It took months to begin to see beneath the veil.
Hell, even Dr. was complaining that it had turned religious and that many chosen for various positions were chosen due to anything BUT their believing.
Being away only made my fellowship with God more personal. God will make a way for you and put people in you life also. Be patient, HE can make the stones to rise up...
Why be surprised that people are willing to go back to that hell-hole?
There are many people here who remember with fondness the good ol' days of "TWI 1", still think Wierwille was the greatest thing since sliced bread and continue to run PFAL classes. Who choose to ignore, or place no importance on the lying, the abuse, and all the other crap that went on.
Why would we think it incredible that some people actually saw some good in "TWI 2"? After all, there is some truth in the WayAP class; Martindale taught truth some of the time. There were good people and "sweet fellowship" in "TWI 2" as well. :wacko:
There are people all over this board who think that there was little or nothing wrong with PFAL, Wierwille, the Corps program, and whatever else, who think it was God's ministry.
It's not all that unbelieveable that there would be credulous saps from the later years of TWI to add to those from the earlier years.
I love the attitude: My TC was so hot. My TC. Still the emphasis on man rather than the emphasis being on the goodness of God.
The more committed I got, the more talk I heard, the less miracles I saw.
Note the five-senses attitude here...the emphasis is still on seeing things. Evidences of power. Not an emphasis on the worship and adoration of God, but what kind of power am I seeing evidenced. How is man getting exalted?
maybe you (and I do mean YOU) got wooded out because their was something wrong with you anyway.
Again, where is the emphasis: on man. Constantly on man. Man performs miracles. Man talks. Man has something wrong with him. Man. Man. Man. Ego. Ego. Ego. Me. Me. Me.
they would find that miracles are happening with TWI again. I can again say that I've seen amazing things.
Again, Me. Me. Me. I. I. I.
because those boys are back in town.
Emphasis on man...still and for always.
Thank God I can read the Bible
Pity that this person can't understand what is written, to realize that the Bible is NOT about being an instruction book on how to manipulate spiritual power, but it is a love story showing how we were loved into living and how we are now to live that love in constant worship, thanksgiving, and adoration of God.
ready for another day of believing God's Word.
I only wish for this person's sake that this person would some day be able to actually understand God's Word so that it could accomplish it's goal: to reveal God to His creation. But as long as the arrogance revealed in the above comments continue, there is no way that this person will ever understand even that fundamental principle.
There was always so much emphasis on 1 Corinthians 12 in TWI, but, as with so much, even this was horribly misinterpreted:
1 Cor 12:4-6 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.
1 Cor 12:18 But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.
The constant emphasis here is God giving, God inspiring, God producing, God placing.
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
God placed the gifts, the forms of service, and the different workings (energemata) as He saw fit. Not to cause the exultation of the member who displays them, but for the building of the body...to the end that the body, along with each member, could live in closer communion with God.
But what do we see: My TC was so hot on all 9, all the time; -- not a word of praise of God -- rather, we see exultation of man. And that is so typical, particularly in TWI. It's the epitome of an earthly mind. The arrogance is incredible.
Not enough smilies Paw. I need one with a finger that flips up and down :D
It has been just about 20 years since I left tha cult and do not regret a day of it(since the day I left). It was evil then and it is evil now.
Funny thing about your words about comming back. It is the same ole dribble I heard 20 years ago.
It is all about the love of money
The love of money so they can have a nice place to abuse people and hide it from the world. How dare you come here and try to talk people to come back. Gotta say though you have some big kahoonas to try.
Big whapping power *zap* miracles that give glory to some guy don't move me anymore.
I'm much more interested in how the poor believer who has cancer and didn't get the big power zap healing is treated. Anyone driving him to chemo? Cleaning his house, fixing him meals? Slipping him a little cash? Doubt it. That's what unbelieving earthly families are for.He's not BELIEVING enough for household help, other that doctrine, reproof and correction..
I suspect that in a culture where the power zap miracles are highly valued, then the poor believer who isn't seeing it in their life is treated even worse during their darkest times, since they are not 'believing'. Kick 'em when they're down, how sweet. It's the TWI way!
NOT how I'm living the rest of my life.
And Marko'malley--lovely post on your view of God and bible.
Perhaps one only needs to contact the Wierwille children and ask them how the head kahunas treated and took care of Dorothea Wierwille in her last days.
And then ask themselves, Is this an organization to which I want to devote my time, energy and money?
(Of course, one could also ask oneself, They've been abusive a**h*!es in the past - what's to stop them from doing it again? What safeguards exist? And what gives them the authority to order my life around, anyhow?)
p.s. - I think you can tell what my answer would be. :)
This is true. If you want to have some real insight into and organization tht calls itself an Christian MINISTRY - then take a good hard look at how they treat widows and children, and the poor. TWI was touting that bad things happen to people because they didn't believe enough. Then then let these poor individuals lie on the ground while "believers" walked right by and even gave them a few jabs. (This is a figure for those of you who are very literal thinkers ;) )
When my children misbehave I don't weed them out - I teach them and comfort them if that is what is needed. Yes I correct them - but not with a baseball bat.
In a word, No. A second word would be, Why? A third word would be, to what?
Since I left TWI, the last Friday before Corps Week I've lived close enough to TWI; for the last aprox 6 yrs in Dayton and all of the years prior to that in New Knoxville. My perspective is enhanced by my daughter's who until graduation last June went to school K-12 at New Knoxville School with ALL of the Way kids; who, like her are "second generation" Wafers. Most of the kids are second generation WC the rest are second generation TWI staffers and a few are the children of the new staffers who've moved there to work @ HQ.
I haven't considered going back to TWI, no not for one minute. Right now it would be a roughly 55 minute drive for me to go to a STS and for about 11 years it was a 3 minute drive.
Why not go back? It takes a while away from TWI being exposed to "normal" people living "normal" lives to clearly see just how ABnormal TWI is now and yes, how abnormal it was, even back in the good ol' days. My daughter growing up, asking the typical questions a growing kids asks of her Dad... my having to ANSWER them adds a something to the whole mix.
I could go on and on w/ reasons. If you want me to get specific, ask me specific questions. For right now I'll focus on the kids, what their parents have passed on to them about what being a believer is, and how one should behave as a Christian.
Children learn what they live and they are ALWAYS a reflection of their parents. Granted sometimes the relfection is like a warped carnival mirror, but....
At any rate. The first scene is a Saturday afternoon at my home. Jasmine & I have long talks on Saturdays until she left a few months ago for college. This particular time she was upset about how "the Way kids" (that's what "everybody calls them) had treated a lady who was well into her 80's. They were on some sort of school field trip.
I've gotta pause her to give you a little more of the lay of the land. If you take the entire group of NK high school students grades 9-12 you have between 50 & 80 kids. The juniors & seniors do more events together than the other, which means that you have the same basic group of about 30 kids (max) at stuff, ususally its about 10 to 15 of the same kids at "everything." Depending on the topic, be it sports or academic, you get about 10 to 20 kids with about 7 to 10 kids that overlap. Jasmine was in "everything" so she knows "everybody." BUT since NK is so small everybody is at least acquainted w/ everybody.
This time, "the Way kids" had derided this little old lady to the point where the lady CRIED. Yes, cried, real tears, as in weeping. The lady was a Holocaust Survivor. She was speaking to a group of exceptional high school kids, which included a group from NK (which is an EXCELLENT school) the group had some TWI kids in it.
They blasted this lady, who was there, who had photos and had expereinced it, they BLASTED her w/ TWI's anti-Holocaust rhetoric, until she cried. They only let up when my daughter, who had been urging them to let up the whole time, stood up, pulled rank on them as Class President, had to YELL at them and ORDER them to "JUST STOP IT! LEAVE HER ALONE! YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, STOP IT!!!"
Jasmine's question to me was, "Why do they act like that Dad?"
Through the years she's asked me many questions about TWI, based on the behavior of the way kids. Not one question was about something cool or good or "normal."
Another question she posed to me was, "What is it with them that the Way Kids aren't allowed to ride with us in our cars?"
With no public transportation in the NK area, "everybody" gets a car when they get over 16 and get their license. Some of the more concervative, cautious parents make their kids drive some old clunker they've had forever and kept for the kids when they bought their new one. (Their kid ususally "fender bender" wrecks it anyways.) A few kids don't get their own car but at least have access to the parent's second car or as in the case of one kid with a huge family, the family van that was as big as like, a small school bus. She didn't drive much ;-).
None of "the Way kids" have their own cars.
In a community like NK, that is an eyebrow raiser. Most parents reward their kids school performance w/a car, then use keepin' it to modify the teen's behavior positively. NO car, you can't do nothin' on the teen scene. When they kids are at a group school function, like NORMAL people do, they get together & decide whose house they're gonna congregate at aftwerwards, or which fast food place they're gonna meet at and make noise.
TWI kids can't go.
Their parents usually won't give then the car, or give them a ride, (which is an embarrassment for a junior and social DEATH for a senior) AND they are not allowed to get a ride w/ the other kids who have cars or access.
This is an insult not only to the kids, but to the whole community. In NK we parents know each other we know which kids can be trusted w/ what. Some parents trust Jasmine to drive their kid around more th an they trust their own kid to drive.
When Way parents won't allow their kid to ride w/ ANY of our kids they insult us all. Its like calling us fools for allowing our own kids to drive.
It creates problems for the Way kids socially because they're "never there" when the events happen that kids talk about in school after the weekend. Sure, few people are at "everything," but the way kids are never at "anything." They only participate in "official" activities, most of the unofficial, spontaneous, teen stuff the kids do is off limits to TWI kids. They do their own stuff on grounds at TWI.
The way kids are never a part of "everybody" they are always an "everybody" to themselves. Some of them are very likeable, talented and really cool kids, but their parents make sure there is ALWAYS a line of separation. Like during Graduation party season last year, the way kids (the few who came) only went to certain parties, all came and left together and could only stay for very short periods of time. It was like they're there but "not really" they don't really participate in what's going on.
I could tell when I talked to them that they really wanted to "participate fully" but weren't allowed to and were not really allowed to say (or maybe were too embarrased to say) we're not allowed to.
Sure, everybody only went to certain parties, only a few people went to "every" party. Its hard to get to every party because you'd have to leave your own.... However, everybody, knew that a certain few people whose homes were larger and more suitable for larger groups; their parties went on later in the evening and folks would end their parties earlier then congregate at the big one(s). Typical small town stuff, The Way kids were conspicuosly absent.
What gets me is that TWI adults cuss like sailors and drink like fish. They won't, however allow their teens freedom to go to parties supervised by adults. AND they would'ntlet their kids hang out til curfew at the local fast food joint.
It was BECAUSE the adults (who don't think like they do) are there and it was BECAUSE hanging out w/local kids, having fun might cause them to want to do it more often.
I'd run into staffers on a regular basis through the years at NK school events, basketball games or track meets. More recently they've begun speaking to me and a few would go a little overboard acting and talking "normal." I was taken a little aback by how easly they bandied cuss words about. Just didn't seem to fit from someone who works for a church. They would get buddy buddy, then whenever it kinda naturally went to "we should do this again, this was fun," it was ALWAYS, "You can come to a service..." Like the "Ol' Jedi mind trick...."
Just for kicks one time I invited an old WC friend of mine to have lunch when I saw her at a track meet. Her response was...
"Sure, you can come to a Sunday Service."
I was like, "I was kinda wanting to catch up on old times, sit & talk for awhile." She said,
"Sure. There's plenty of time to talk after the service. :-)"
(Cue Twighlight zone music... do do doo do....) :blink:
To me, one of the most heinous things that's going on (that I'm sure they don't consider bad at all) is where they have convinced a really exceptional TWI girl whose a senior this year that she should put off college and go do their current version of the WOW outreach program. College entrance is designed to accomidate high school seniors planning to matriculate to a college after their senior year. Waiting a year can cost a kid a LOT in potential scholarships. I really don't know that a school that would offer a full ride, of half a ride to a high school senior would offer the same package to a person a year later. There are a LOT of stringent requirements for that stuff and "high school senior" is one of them. If you're not a high school senior you MAY not qualify, and summarily just not be considered.
Not completely sure of the scholarship thing but I'm sure that TWI has done NOTHING to eliminate the "US vs THEM" mentality they've nurtured for years. They care NOTHING about what what they consider to be "of the world" and don't give one spit about what personal sacrifice an individual makes to be TWI.
In short, they haven't changed at all. All they are doing is whitewashing the fence, they are making it appear like they are just "normal God loving people" a church just like every other church, just people who love God and want to spead His Word. They have even referred to themselves as a "church" in print in the newspaper.
Nothing could be further from the truth. IMO they are more dangerous than ever. Remember, "The secret to his success is...."
If you go back to TWI you must extricate yourself from life on this planet and go live in "wayworld."
Nope. Not me, not for a minute. Problem is, they don't seem to see it that way. You won't either until you've taken enough time away from "wayhead" to begin to see how crazy it is.
It is absolutely INSANE to tell your kid, "No, you can't go to Taco Bell after the game unless you ride with someone from our church."
Kid says, "What if I ride with the class president, National Merit Finalist (at the time before she won it) whose Dad trusts her to drive 65 miles on the interstate, one way, ALONE every other weekend? He trusts HER to drive HIS OWN kids, why can't YOU trust her to ride me 8 miles to Taco Bell?"
This time, "the Way kids" had derided this little old lady to the point where the lady CRIED. Yes, cried, real tears, as in weeping. The lady was a Holocaust Survivor. She was speaking to a group of exceptional high school kids, which included a group from NK (which is an EXCELLENT school) the group had some TWI kids in it.
They blasted this lady, who was there, who had photos and had expereinced it, they BLASTED her w/ TWI's anti-Holocaust rhetoric, until she cried. They only let up when my daughter, who had been urging them to let up the whole time, stood up, pulled rank on them as Class President, had to YELL at them and ORDER them to "JUST STOP IT! LEAVE HER ALONE! YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, STOP IT!!!"
Jasmine's question to me was, "Why do they act like that Dad?"
Hunter S. Thompson has two great line, quotes I remember that remind me of the Way and answer your daughter's question-One is his book in the 80's where he refers to "a generation of swine".
The other goes: "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro".
The Way will continue to turn out it's generations of swine-ling's as long as they're as weird as they are, and at the Way they're pro's at being weird. They'll hawk their youth's "accomplishments" at every turn like pimps and as if their kids were hookers trying to take control of a street corner. Then instead of offering something reasonably useful like sex they'll spew forth verbatim ad nauseum the poison porridge they've been force fed without even blushing.
HCW, your story makes me think the next genration of Wayfers will be even swinier than their parents if that be possible and sadly it will be only because they've been taught to think that way. It's too bad.
Go back? If the Way was giving out 20 dollar bills for ones on the street tonight, I'd pass. Why spoil a perfectly good Christmas weekend?
Take it from someone who "just left", I too stayed too long "because of people."
People will ALWAYS disappoint you!......... know me long enough, and I will disappoint you too. Better yet, I may even Hurt you.....not intentionally, but I will, that is just people.
God will never disppoint us, as long as we look to HIM ONLY and not man.
You also assume that what the ministry teaches is correct. I would beg to differ. If you stay around here long enough................you will learn.
Glad you are here, seems as if you are looking for a WAY OUT! I hope you can see, that a leopard can't change its spots, no matter what the "people" tell you!
So, to answer the question about going back............................not for a gazillion dollars!
The offenders though past or present see God's cleansing power as enough and maybe you (and I do mean YOU) got wooded out because their was something wrong with you anyway.
Hmmmm. God did not *wood me out*, local leadership did.
Who's cleansing power was that?
And what was wrong with me (assuming something was)??
I asked too many questions;
I made it to meetings when I could, not when mandated to;
I didn't think some of the teachings correct;
I gave money to folks on the street, charities, and not always twi;
That last -- I considered abs;
twi did not.
fyi --- I left in '87, and went to a coupla twigs in the early 90's to see
what was going on (those days).
There was a decidedly *cool* atmosphere about me being there,
since they remembered me from before.
I still asked questions, made it to meetings sporadically,
told them what I thought of some of lcm's teachings,
and gave money to others other than twi.
It became clear pretty quickly, that I was persona non-grata.
there was something wrong with me alright. something very wrong.
I was right.
Being right will definitely rub the wrong people red, given enough time. Recommended exit strategy - leave quietly, with dignity intact. Recommended re-entry strategy - bend over.
Like my Pappy Woodreiaux used to say "You can't put a square peg in a round hole without some serious screwing".
Message to those going back to the Way, from Nine Inch Nails (which is what it's going to feel like when you get your Visitors-Returning Orientation Packet read to you by some snot-nosed teenager who thinks Hitler was a bad guy with good ideas and Auschwitz was a converted 4-H Camp....)
Go back? Never. I will never join anything again. I won't join a church, I won't join the American Legion, the Moose, the Elks, the Eagles or the Yellow Bellied Sapsuckers. Ya know, it's weird. I actually joined up with a bunch of "quasi bikers" called the UMF of America. That stands for Ugly MF's. And ya know what? I saw similarities in the "being a member of the club" that I felt with being in The Way, and I did not like it at all. And so, I resigned, and turned in my black UMF shirt with the fiery flames on it....
Someone here mentioned earlier something about TWI raising the dead.
That's exactly whatthey're trying to do, breathe "life" into "the ministry" and raise IT from the dead.
I'm hoping that anyone actually considering going back will see just how heinous TWI is.
They made people live on grounds there just because they had the space and were paying to heat it and light it.
They made WC become full time paid staff so they could control you.
It really makes sense to have the faithful who would send tithes & offerings into the "storehouse" from income outside of TWi leave their jobs and beome paid 100% of the income out of the same "storehouse" they were previously contributing to???
That would be the same as a car dealership forcing people to turn in their leased vehicles for a lesser vehicle that the dealership paid for and paid the maintenance and fuel costs.
Why not go back? It takes a while away from TWI being exposed to "normal" people living "normal" lives to clearly see just how ABnormal TWI is now and yes, how abnormal it was, even back in the good ol' days.
In short, they haven't changed at all. All they are doing is whitewashing the fence, they are making it appear like they are just "normal God loving people" a church just like every other church, just people who love God and want to spead His Word. They have even referred to themselves as a "church" in print in the newspaper.
Nothing could be further from the truth. IMO they are more dangerous than ever. Remember, "The secret to his success is...."
.....cultish............all, and more, of these words help others see beyond the whitewashing.
Those who've stayed in this elitist system of spiritualistic cliches........are waybrained and fail to see that twi propounds an illogic premise equivolent to "the earth is flat." In one's youth, and small world.....this premise is fairly meaningless to question. BUT.......as ONE JOURNEYS THROUGH LIFE and broadens his/her horizons, it becomes apparent that the earth is NOT flat.......and more so, those who propounded this illogic cannot and should not be trusted.
And, for twi to start promoting themselves as "a church"..........WOWSERS, in the early 80s to use twi and church in the same sentence was a mortal sin.
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Oakspear
"So what now? LCM is out, things are moving, people are growing and yes, people are coming back. Not just me but many others. People who stayed on the ship out in the ocean during the rough weather and now are heading into shore over calm seas."
LCM is out? Is he really? Isn't his book still on sale in the bookstore when every other person who left has had his books and music purged from the bookstore? Even two books by Wierwille that were "posthumpously edited" by Chris Geer. Hasn't Martindale's class been used as a foundational class for the last 4 years?
"Maybe not completely calm, but calmer. As one person posted to me on a previous thread - (basically it seemed to me they said) that it's hard to forgive a ministry or even a person when it seems like no one is asking for your forgiveness."
many of us have forgiven, we're just not stupid enough to get fooled again.
"This remains to be true in many ways. The offenders though past or present see God's cleansing power as enough"
Bullshirt! The offenders don't think that they did anything wrong
"and maybe you (and I do mean YOU) got wooded out because their was something wrong with you anyway".
I assumed you mean "weeded out" when yopu say 'wooded out". I can't speak for everybody else, but I got "weeded out" because I posted here on GS and "didn't believe that the Trustees were leading the minsitry in the right direction".
That last quote is by far the stupidest thing you've said thus far. Go on back, you and TWI deserve each other.
"Not too many say they are sorry or ask for forgiveness, however, if a person wanted to come back and was willing to forgive the past wrongs - it does take time, no doubt-no doubt! - they would find that miracles are happening with TWI again. I can again say that I've seen amazing things."
I'd be amazed if there was the slightest public admission of past wrong-doing. or the tiniest correction of wrong doctrine. Ain't gonna happen though.
Miracles? Name a few.
"God is ALIVE and is good always."
And what does that have to do with following a corrupt organization?
"I won't say that wrongs weren't done and perpetrators were violaters"
That's more than Rosie and the boyz will say.
"but that's NOT ME and that's not MY ministry."
Sorry to say, that it IS your ministry, even though you didn't personally "violate".
"So I say -if you can't find the Living Word in a church or signs, miracles and wonders, maybe it's time you checked out TWI again because those boys are back in town."
Still waiting to hear about those signs, miracles and wonders. perhaps as ficticious as all the "poer" that yopu saw when you were intop spiritualism or whatver you said you were into before TWI.
"Thank God I can read the Bible;
I can read it too. Too bad TWI doesn't teach it very much.
"Can I get another cup of Java while I'm sitting here? Thanks and heads up, hearts out - ready for another day of believing God's Word."
Or maybe you want another glass of Kool-Aid?
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JeffMedic
DO NOT go back. I tried that, as so many others have. As stated earlier in this thread, craig was only one of the manifistations of the disease process there.
I found it only had gotten worse but not immediately evident. It took months to begin to see beneath the veil.
Hell, even Dr. was complaining that it had turned religious and that many chosen for various positions were chosen due to anything BUT their believing.
Being away only made my fellowship with God more personal. God will make a way for you and put people in you life also. Be patient, HE can make the stones to rise up...
Jeff
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skyrider
No thanks...............it's NOT time..........and NEVER will be.
......"those boys".....
......and madam Spook herself
Life is FAR TOO GOOD........to even give that a passing thought.
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Bramble
Check out TWI again?
Nope. The hard hearted guys who 'wooded' us out are still in their man o' god positions.
I'm responsible for my children. No way would I take them anywhere near TWI.
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Oakspear
Why be surprised that people are willing to go back to that hell-hole?
There are many people here who remember with fondness the good ol' days of "TWI 1", still think Wierwille was the greatest thing since sliced bread and continue to run PFAL classes. Who choose to ignore, or place no importance on the lying, the abuse, and all the other crap that went on.
Why would we think it incredible that some people actually saw some good in "TWI 2"? After all, there is some truth in the WayAP class; Martindale taught truth some of the time. There were good people and "sweet fellowship" in "TWI 2" as well. :wacko:
There are people all over this board who think that there was little or nothing wrong with PFAL, Wierwille, the Corps program, and whatever else, who think it was God's ministry.
It's not all that unbelieveable that there would be credulous saps from the later years of TWI to add to those from the earlier years.
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markomalley
My TC was so hot on all 9, all the time;
I love the attitude: My TC was so hot. My TC. Still the emphasis on man rather than the emphasis being on the goodness of God.
The more committed I got, the more talk I heard, the less miracles I saw.
Note the five-senses attitude here...the emphasis is still on seeing things. Evidences of power. Not an emphasis on the worship and adoration of God, but what kind of power am I seeing evidenced. How is man getting exalted?
maybe you (and I do mean YOU) got wooded out because their was something wrong with you anyway.
Again, where is the emphasis: on man. Constantly on man. Man performs miracles. Man talks. Man has something wrong with him. Man. Man. Man. Ego. Ego. Ego. Me. Me. Me.
they would find that miracles are happening with TWI again. I can again say that I've seen amazing things.
Again, Me. Me. Me. I. I. I.
because those boys are back in town.
Emphasis on man...still and for always.
Thank God I can read the Bible
Pity that this person can't understand what is written, to realize that the Bible is NOT about being an instruction book on how to manipulate spiritual power, but it is a love story showing how we were loved into living and how we are now to live that love in constant worship, thanksgiving, and adoration of God.
ready for another day of believing God's Word.
I only wish for this person's sake that this person would some day be able to actually understand God's Word so that it could accomplish it's goal: to reveal God to His creation. But as long as the arrogance revealed in the above comments continue, there is no way that this person will ever understand even that fundamental principle.
There was always so much emphasis on 1 Corinthians 12 in TWI, but, as with so much, even this was horribly misinterpreted:
1 Cor 12:4-6 There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone.
1 Cor 12:18 But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.
The constant emphasis here is God giving, God inspiring, God producing, God placing.
1 Cor 12:27 Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
God placed the gifts, the forms of service, and the different workings (energemata) as He saw fit. Not to cause the exultation of the member who displays them, but for the building of the body...to the end that the body, along with each member, could live in closer communion with God.
But what do we see: My TC was so hot on all 9, all the time; -- not a word of praise of God -- rather, we see exultation of man. And that is so typical, particularly in TWI. It's the epitome of an earthly mind. The arrogance is incredible.
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justloafing
Go Back? Hehehehehehheheheheheheheheh
Not enough smilies Paw. I need one with a finger that flips up and down :D
It has been just about 20 years since I left tha cult and do not regret a day of it(since the day I left). It was evil then and it is evil now.
Funny thing about your words about comming back. It is the same ole dribble I heard 20 years ago.
It is all about the love of money
The love of money so they can have a nice place to abuse people and hide it from the world. How dare you come here and try to talk people to come back. Gotta say though you have some big kahoonas to try.
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Bramble
Big whapping power *zap* miracles that give glory to some guy don't move me anymore.
I'm much more interested in how the poor believer who has cancer and didn't get the big power zap healing is treated. Anyone driving him to chemo? Cleaning his house, fixing him meals? Slipping him a little cash? Doubt it. That's what unbelieving earthly families are for.He's not BELIEVING enough for household help, other that doctrine, reproof and correction..
I suspect that in a culture where the power zap miracles are highly valued, then the poor believer who isn't seeing it in their life is treated even worse during their darkest times, since they are not 'believing'. Kick 'em when they're down, how sweet. It's the TWI way!
NOT how I'm living the rest of my life.
And Marko'malley--lovely post on your view of God and bible.
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Kevlar2000
Perhaps one only needs to contact the Wierwille children and ask them how the head kahunas treated and took care of Dorothea Wierwille in her last days.
And then ask themselves, Is this an organization to which I want to devote my time, energy and money?
(Of course, one could also ask oneself, They've been abusive a**h*!es in the past - what's to stop them from doing it again? What safeguards exist? And what gives them the authority to order my life around, anyhow?)
p.s. - I think you can tell what my answer would be. :)
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doojable
This is true. If you want to have some real insight into and organization tht calls itself an Christian MINISTRY - then take a good hard look at how they treat widows and children, and the poor. TWI was touting that bad things happen to people because they didn't believe enough. Then then let these poor individuals lie on the ground while "believers" walked right by and even gave them a few jabs. (This is a figure for those of you who are very literal thinkers ;) )
When my children misbehave I don't weed them out - I teach them and comfort them if that is what is needed. Yes I correct them - but not with a baseball bat.
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HCW
Go back?
In a word, No. A second word would be, Why? A third word would be, to what?
Since I left TWI, the last Friday before Corps Week I've lived close enough to TWI; for the last aprox 6 yrs in Dayton and all of the years prior to that in New Knoxville. My perspective is enhanced by my daughter's who until graduation last June went to school K-12 at New Knoxville School with ALL of the Way kids; who, like her are "second generation" Wafers. Most of the kids are second generation WC the rest are second generation TWI staffers and a few are the children of the new staffers who've moved there to work @ HQ.
I haven't considered going back to TWI, no not for one minute. Right now it would be a roughly 55 minute drive for me to go to a STS and for about 11 years it was a 3 minute drive.
Why not go back? It takes a while away from TWI being exposed to "normal" people living "normal" lives to clearly see just how ABnormal TWI is now and yes, how abnormal it was, even back in the good ol' days. My daughter growing up, asking the typical questions a growing kids asks of her Dad... my having to ANSWER them adds a something to the whole mix.
I could go on and on w/ reasons. If you want me to get specific, ask me specific questions. For right now I'll focus on the kids, what their parents have passed on to them about what being a believer is, and how one should behave as a Christian.
Children learn what they live and they are ALWAYS a reflection of their parents. Granted sometimes the relfection is like a warped carnival mirror, but....
At any rate. The first scene is a Saturday afternoon at my home. Jasmine & I have long talks on Saturdays until she left a few months ago for college. This particular time she was upset about how "the Way kids" (that's what "everybody calls them) had treated a lady who was well into her 80's. They were on some sort of school field trip.
I've gotta pause her to give you a little more of the lay of the land. If you take the entire group of NK high school students grades 9-12 you have between 50 & 80 kids. The juniors & seniors do more events together than the other, which means that you have the same basic group of about 30 kids (max) at stuff, ususally its about 10 to 15 of the same kids at "everything." Depending on the topic, be it sports or academic, you get about 10 to 20 kids with about 7 to 10 kids that overlap. Jasmine was in "everything" so she knows "everybody." BUT since NK is so small everybody is at least acquainted w/ everybody.
This time, "the Way kids" had derided this little old lady to the point where the lady CRIED. Yes, cried, real tears, as in weeping. The lady was a Holocaust Survivor. She was speaking to a group of exceptional high school kids, which included a group from NK (which is an EXCELLENT school) the group had some TWI kids in it.
They blasted this lady, who was there, who had photos and had expereinced it, they BLASTED her w/ TWI's anti-Holocaust rhetoric, until she cried. They only let up when my daughter, who had been urging them to let up the whole time, stood up, pulled rank on them as Class President, had to YELL at them and ORDER them to "JUST STOP IT! LEAVE HER ALONE! YOU DON"T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, STOP IT!!!"
Jasmine's question to me was, "Why do they act like that Dad?"
Through the years she's asked me many questions about TWI, based on the behavior of the way kids. Not one question was about something cool or good or "normal."
Another question she posed to me was, "What is it with them that the Way Kids aren't allowed to ride with us in our cars?"
With no public transportation in the NK area, "everybody" gets a car when they get over 16 and get their license. Some of the more concervative, cautious parents make their kids drive some old clunker they've had forever and kept for the kids when they bought their new one. (Their kid ususally "fender bender" wrecks it anyways.) A few kids don't get their own car but at least have access to the parent's second car or as in the case of one kid with a huge family, the family van that was as big as like, a small school bus. She didn't drive much ;-).
None of "the Way kids" have their own cars.
In a community like NK, that is an eyebrow raiser. Most parents reward their kids school performance w/a car, then use keepin' it to modify the teen's behavior positively. NO car, you can't do nothin' on the teen scene. When they kids are at a group school function, like NORMAL people do, they get together & decide whose house they're gonna congregate at aftwerwards, or which fast food place they're gonna meet at and make noise.
TWI kids can't go.
Their parents usually won't give then the car, or give them a ride, (which is an embarrassment for a junior and social DEATH for a senior) AND they are not allowed to get a ride w/ the other kids who have cars or access.
This is an insult not only to the kids, but to the whole community. In NK we parents know each other we know which kids can be trusted w/ what. Some parents trust Jasmine to drive their kid around more th an they trust their own kid to drive.
When Way parents won't allow their kid to ride w/ ANY of our kids they insult us all. Its like calling us fools for allowing our own kids to drive.
It creates problems for the Way kids socially because they're "never there" when the events happen that kids talk about in school after the weekend. Sure, few people are at "everything," but the way kids are never at "anything." They only participate in "official" activities, most of the unofficial, spontaneous, teen stuff the kids do is off limits to TWI kids. They do their own stuff on grounds at TWI.
The way kids are never a part of "everybody" they are always an "everybody" to themselves. Some of them are very likeable, talented and really cool kids, but their parents make sure there is ALWAYS a line of separation. Like during Graduation party season last year, the way kids (the few who came) only went to certain parties, all came and left together and could only stay for very short periods of time. It was like they're there but "not really" they don't really participate in what's going on.
I could tell when I talked to them that they really wanted to "participate fully" but weren't allowed to and were not really allowed to say (or maybe were too embarrased to say) we're not allowed to.
Sure, everybody only went to certain parties, only a few people went to "every" party. Its hard to get to every party because you'd have to leave your own.... However, everybody, knew that a certain few people whose homes were larger and more suitable for larger groups; their parties went on later in the evening and folks would end their parties earlier then congregate at the big one(s). Typical small town stuff, The Way kids were conspicuosly absent.
What gets me is that TWI adults cuss like sailors and drink like fish. They won't, however allow their teens freedom to go to parties supervised by adults. AND they would'ntlet their kids hang out til curfew at the local fast food joint.
It was BECAUSE the adults (who don't think like they do) are there and it was BECAUSE hanging out w/local kids, having fun might cause them to want to do it more often.
I'd run into staffers on a regular basis through the years at NK school events, basketball games or track meets. More recently they've begun speaking to me and a few would go a little overboard acting and talking "normal." I was taken a little aback by how easly they bandied cuss words about. Just didn't seem to fit from someone who works for a church. They would get buddy buddy, then whenever it kinda naturally went to "we should do this again, this was fun," it was ALWAYS, "You can come to a service..." Like the "Ol' Jedi mind trick...."
Just for kicks one time I invited an old WC friend of mine to have lunch when I saw her at a track meet. Her response was...
"Sure, you can come to a Sunday Service."
I was like, "I was kinda wanting to catch up on old times, sit & talk for awhile." She said,
"Sure. There's plenty of time to talk after the service. :-)"
(Cue Twighlight zone music... do do doo do....) :blink:
To me, one of the most heinous things that's going on (that I'm sure they don't consider bad at all) is where they have convinced a really exceptional TWI girl whose a senior this year that she should put off college and go do their current version of the WOW outreach program. College entrance is designed to accomidate high school seniors planning to matriculate to a college after their senior year. Waiting a year can cost a kid a LOT in potential scholarships. I really don't know that a school that would offer a full ride, of half a ride to a high school senior would offer the same package to a person a year later. There are a LOT of stringent requirements for that stuff and "high school senior" is one of them. If you're not a high school senior you MAY not qualify, and summarily just not be considered.
Not completely sure of the scholarship thing but I'm sure that TWI has done NOTHING to eliminate the "US vs THEM" mentality they've nurtured for years. They care NOTHING about what what they consider to be "of the world" and don't give one spit about what personal sacrifice an individual makes to be TWI.
In short, they haven't changed at all. All they are doing is whitewashing the fence, they are making it appear like they are just "normal God loving people" a church just like every other church, just people who love God and want to spead His Word. They have even referred to themselves as a "church" in print in the newspaper.
Nothing could be further from the truth. IMO they are more dangerous than ever. Remember, "The secret to his success is...."
If you go back to TWI you must extricate yourself from life on this planet and go live in "wayworld."
Nope. Not me, not for a minute. Problem is, they don't seem to see it that way. You won't either until you've taken enough time away from "wayhead" to begin to see how crazy it is.
It is absolutely INSANE to tell your kid, "No, you can't go to Taco Bell after the game unless you ride with someone from our church."
Kid says, "What if I ride with the class president, National Merit Finalist (at the time before she won it) whose Dad trusts her to drive 65 miles on the interstate, one way, ALONE every other weekend? He trusts HER to drive HIS OWN kids, why can't YOU trust her to ride me 8 miles to Taco Bell?"
Parent says, "Her Dad isn't in TWI."
Go back to THAT?
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excathedra
wow dear hcw i'm stunned (i shouldn't be, but it's been so long) how very very very awful
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socks
Hunter S. Thompson has two great line, quotes I remember that remind me of the Way and answer your daughter's question-One is his book in the 80's where he refers to "a generation of swine".
The other goes: "when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro".
The Way will continue to turn out it's generations of swine-ling's as long as they're as weird as they are, and at the Way they're pro's at being weird. They'll hawk their youth's "accomplishments" at every turn like pimps and as if their kids were hookers trying to take control of a street corner. Then instead of offering something reasonably useful like sex they'll spew forth verbatim ad nauseum the poison porridge they've been force fed without even blushing.
HCW, your story makes me think the next genration of Wayfers will be even swinier than their parents if that be possible and sadly it will be only because they've been taught to think that way. It's too bad.
Go back? If the Way was giving out 20 dollar bills for ones on the street tonight, I'd pass. Why spoil a perfectly good Christmas weekend?
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excathedra
these poor kids
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bliss
oh Lizzy Lizzy Lizzy................
Take it from someone who "just left", I too stayed too long "because of people."
People will ALWAYS disappoint you!......... know me long enough, and I will disappoint you too. Better yet, I may even Hurt you.....not intentionally, but I will, that is just people.
God will never disppoint us, as long as we look to HIM ONLY and not man.
You also assume that what the ministry teaches is correct. I would beg to differ. If you stay around here long enough................you will learn.
Glad you are here, seems as if you are looking for a WAY OUT! I hope you can see, that a leopard can't change its spots, no matter what the "people" tell you!
So, to answer the question about going back............................not for a gazillion dollars!
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dmiller
(worth repeating.)
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dmiller
Hmmmm. God did not *wood me out*, local leadership did.
Who's cleansing power was that?
And what was wrong with me (assuming something was)??
I asked too many questions;
I made it to meetings when I could, not when mandated to;
I didn't think some of the teachings correct;
I gave money to folks on the street, charities, and not always twi;
That last -- I considered abs;
twi did not.
fyi --- I left in '87, and went to a coupla twigs in the early 90's to see
what was going on (those days).
There was a decidedly *cool* atmosphere about me being there,
since they remembered me from before.
I still asked questions, made it to meetings sporadically,
told them what I thought of some of lcm's teachings,
and gave money to others other than twi.
It became clear pretty quickly, that I was persona non-grata.
I didn't toe the Party Line.
No -- I won't go back.
Even if I wanted to, they wouldn't have me.
I won't glorify *man (or ministry)* above God.
And they can't handle that. (imo)
David
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socks
:)
there was something wrong with me alright. something very wrong.
I was right.
Being right will definitely rub the wrong people red, given enough time. Recommended exit strategy - leave quietly, with dignity intact. Recommended re-entry strategy - bend over.
Like my Pappy Woodreiaux used to say "You can't put a square peg in a round hole without some serious screwing".
Message to those going back to the Way, from Nine Inch Nails (which is what it's going to feel like when you get your Visitors-Returning Orientation Packet read to you by some snot-nosed teenager who thinks Hitler was a bad guy with good ideas and Auschwitz was a converted 4-H Camp....)
"Bow down before the one you serve.
You're going to get what you deserve".
Mewwy Chwistmas!
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J0nny Ling0
Go back? Never. I will never join anything again. I won't join a church, I won't join the American Legion, the Moose, the Elks, the Eagles or the Yellow Bellied Sapsuckers. Ya know, it's weird. I actually joined up with a bunch of "quasi bikers" called the UMF of America. That stands for Ugly MF's. And ya know what? I saw similarities in the "being a member of the club" that I felt with being in The Way, and I did not like it at all. And so, I resigned, and turned in my black UMF shirt with the fiery flames on it....
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excathedra
why would i ever go back when i'm trying to heal
i s'pose if god told me to go back....
i'd tell him to go jump in the lake :)
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HCW
Someone here mentioned earlier something about TWI raising the dead.
That's exactly whatthey're trying to do, breathe "life" into "the ministry" and raise IT from the dead.
I'm hoping that anyone actually considering going back will see just how heinous TWI is.
They made people live on grounds there just because they had the space and were paying to heat it and light it.
They made WC become full time paid staff so they could control you.
It really makes sense to have the faithful who would send tithes & offerings into the "storehouse" from income outside of TWi leave their jobs and beome paid 100% of the income out of the same "storehouse" they were previously contributing to???
That would be the same as a car dealership forcing people to turn in their leased vehicles for a lesser vehicle that the dealership paid for and paid the maintenance and fuel costs.
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skyrider
HCW........so true, so very true.
ABnormal...........obsessive...........controlling...........micromanaging......
.....cultish............all, and more, of these words help others see beyond the whitewashing.
Those who've stayed in this elitist system of spiritualistic cliches........are waybrained and fail to see that twi propounds an illogic premise equivolent to "the earth is flat." In one's youth, and small world.....this premise is fairly meaningless to question. BUT.......as ONE JOURNEYS THROUGH LIFE and broadens his/her horizons, it becomes apparent that the earth is NOT flat.......and more so, those who propounded this illogic cannot and should not be trusted.
And, for twi to start promoting themselves as "a church"..........WOWSERS, in the early 80s to use twi and church in the same sentence was a mortal sin.
Un-friggin-believable.
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frank123lol
They (twi) will do anything to stay around.remember the word survive we were not allowed to use it
but they damn sure did when martin loy resigned.Big rasberry PHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT
Anyhoo............Merry Christmas!!!!!!
And hell no I will never go back
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themex
Maybe some day but if the things change for good and if the Lord does not return first. :P
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