Wonder - most here will tell you that you shouldn't go back.
Craig was a symptom, not the cause.
True, there won't be any churches anywhere that share 100% of your beliefs with you.
But there are TWI splinter groups, known as offshoots, and many of the churches around, even though they may not have a corner on truth, still have wonderful warm hearted people, and manifest the love of God much more than has been evident in TWI for quite some time.
Thanks Steve. We went to a few. They all think JC is God. It is not easy. It just breaks my heart that we gave up so much to be with that ministry and now we have nothing.
You may want to do a search on Unitarian churches.
The freedom of being gone, is worth more to me than over looking a few things I do not agree with in church.
I love Joyce Myer but she believes in the trinity. But she seems to be kind to people unlike TWI. So, I just try to find a place CLOSE to what I believe in. If they are kind and love God -- it means a lot.
Or heck, just work on making friends where you are, and work on developing interests, and learning who you are.
While in TWI you probably didn't really have all that much time to have hobbies, or join bowling leagues, or any of that kind of thing.
Start living a real life again! There's more to life than meetings!
Heck, a couple of years ago, I volunteered (!) at a Roman Catholic (!) Church's community barbecue - just for the fun of it. I met some wonderful people, and had a great time.
In my years since leaving TWI I've come to the conclusion that no one group or person has all "the truth" perfectly anyway. You are assuming that TWI is so close to the truth. But how much have you looked around?
Even if you went to a church or fellowship that didn't sync up with what you believe to be the truth doesn't mean you can't learn something from them. I've been to some large churches & small fellowships and learned as much of the bible from them as when I was in TWI. And met some very godly loving people, too.
Why not pray about it & see where God leads you. Or what people he will bring into your life? Also, you might go to some fellowships that are off the wall. So what, just move on. When we move & make an effort, then God can start moving.
I think TWI put so much fear into us about "the world" and other religious groups. That's just typical cult mentality. To make you so afraid of being exposed to other evil teachings. Hey, God is working within us & we have brains to decide these things. You DON'T need someone telling you every minute of the day what to think or feel.
Life can be an interesting journey with God. It's O.K. not to live in a perfect protective bubble (i.e., cult) that "protects" us from screwing up.
Well, don't know if I've articulated this very well but here's my main point: Trust God to lead you, not some group or person.
You have the freedom to live life according to your dictates not the prevailing delusion. You have the right to reexamine your beliefs and change them if/when they don't fit any longer and you have the rest of your life to make new friends who won't judge you according to what corpse you were in or what minimog you are pals with.
Wonder... when you say "We cannot find any type of fellowship close to the truth." Do you mean "TWI Truth" or "God's Word Truth"?
They are not the same you know. Many things that TWI got us to buy into as truth were their private interpretation that fit where they wanted us all to go. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but that's what it was.
Now, you're probably going to find some "religiosity" at whichever fellowship or church you decide to go to, try to look at the love in the folks hearts to balance that...
One thing you've got to do if you ever hope to be happy fellowshipping again is not think that what you got in TWI is "THE TRUTH"... granted, there was a lot there, but it was mixed in with so much more guano than you'll ever realize.
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
Hi Wonder, my wife and I tried the splinters too,but feel they are headed down the same legalistic path, the word promises that will happen if we start adding rules.
Anyway I would take a break from looking as hard as that is and start RE-working everything we were taught with a honest heart for God and he will open your eyes to more than ever thought possible. Missing the fellowship can be replaced by a few good friends ,and a glass of wine. We took the time to start helping someone else and God blessed us with peace like we had never seen in 20 years in TWI.
If you ask God for understanding it will be there, (keyword) ASK. We don't demand anything and we have true abundance now.
Replacing what God can teach you can not be done by ANY group. My opinions are free and I believe they may or may not help.
No,I would check out Christian Educational Services (CES) or Christian Family Fellowship (CFF) before I would go back to the Way.
Both of these organizations have maintained certain biblical teaching and principals learned from the Way they believe to be true. CES has changed a lot of the doctrinal error in Way teachings. CFF has kept most of the Way teachings but it is without all the legalism and dishonesty you find in the Way leadership.
Why would you go back to the Way when they:
1) Continue to lie to the followers.
2) Continue to practice a huge double standard (for example...the whole situation with Martindale including his wife still at the Way campus and he is not (she should have been required to leave with him)...no one else is allowed that convenience. This is only one example. If necessary, I can give MANY more.
3) Continue to avoid the...debt issue (no public policy change)....adultery issue..no printed material stating they believe it is wrong from scripture... tithing/abundant sharing issue...WE DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE A MINIMUM 10% OR GOD WILL NOT BLESS US.
I could go on but what is the point.
Tell me one thing that has changed that now makes it better. Please do not say a more kind and gentle TWI....that may be what they want you to believe...however,their actions say different.
I can relate to your need for fellowship. Please make your decision on what will bless you. If you believe going back to the Way is the answer, then that is what you should do. Pray (I will pray for you) and ask God. I am sure your answer will come.
Despite Wierwille's claims that he would teach us the keys to "the Word's" interpretation and how we could work the Word ourselves, we really just sat in awed wonder at what we were taught. Any "research" was done only to back up what was already taught.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
One other thing I would add, Wonder, while you're looking for a place to fellowship...
TWI tricked us all into thinking that to "fellowship with like minded believers" really meant "same minded"... I don't think you'll ever find any person, much less a whole group, who are going to agree with you 100% right down the line...
It's just not humanly possible for that to happen... except in a cult...
TWI would have us turn away from those folks that didn't agree with us 100% never giving us the chance to bless them or be blessed by them...
But ya know, there's nothing to fear from them, they can't make you change your mind if you don't want to, there are a lot of beautiful, wonderful, giving folks out there full of love.
Their goal in life isn't necessarily to "get everything right".
Their goal is to love God and his people to the best of their ability.
Trust God, he's been there before for you.
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
the question I ask myself in huge direction turns is (at least one of the things I or my husband and I consider)
Are we running from? or are we running towards?
Are we lookin' to just get, or is there any giving we can do?
Who else will it impact----once in TWI---you arent really supposed to get out again.....And having left once and after 4 years returning again for a time (aprox 7 yrs) I can tell you:
YOU WILL BE SUSPECTED (of less than 100% spirituality) AND UNDER SCRUTINY FOR UNDIVIDED LOYALTY.
I think before you go back, reading a book called "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" will promote careful thinking in this matter....not written about TWI specifically at all, but it will illustrate some objective ways to approach things when thinking through what healthy verses unhealthy christian environments are like.
I sort of asked a similar question... Being alone does suc*. Agree with that. But leaving TWI gave us (Mrs. Too Gray and me) a chance to look at why we were so horribly alone. Hangups about non-essential stuff was keeping us alone in our own hearts. There are different ways of praise and worship, all sorts of stuff that formed a huge stumbling block to us. We were very STUCK in ?our? ways.
We never entertained an idea of going back to TWI, though. For us, life had to move on. So I fell back to what was in my heart. In other words, before I was ?Way Corps?, I was a believer. Before I took the class, God did some great stuff in my life. And frankly, that had left a permanent mark on me. Everything else was just stuff in a tightly clinched fist. I needed to let go.
So we went back to those realities and rebuilt everything from there. By focusing on Him, rather than doctrine, we found others. I have met some fantastic people since TWI days.
My doctrine has changed 5 fold, if not more. Not because I now throw away things easily, but once you are fully ?out? from under the hold of TWI, things are ALLOWED to change, naturally ? normally. There is no pressure to remain true to doctrine at the expense of staying true to what is in your heart.
What really matters is what YOU believe. Not what you are supposed to believe? not what ?they? believe.
Best to you? in your struggles. Sorry for the long post. You made me re-live the incident. ;)-->
What makes you think that you are the enlightened one who knows "the truth"? It honestly sounds very pompous, prideful, and like Wayfer talk.
All I'm trying to do is make you see that the Way is not the only ones with the truth. They were wrong on many points. I attend a church that believes in the trinity, that the dead are alive, and in water baptism. I am convinced that God led me there.
You should stop being so concerned about "doctrine" and be more concerned about the two most important commandments named by Jesus Christ--to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself. When you have mastered those two things, then you can move on to the other less important things.
I'm sincerely not trying to give you a hard time. But you need some serious "deprograming" of sorts. God has put his hand of blessing on many ministries that dont believe exactly as you do(or as I do). Find a church or any kind of group that loves God and others. And get busy being a blessing and contributing to their lives.
God obviously stopped blessing The Way many years ago. Why? Obviously God is not that concerned about the knowledge you possess about His Word. He is concerned with your "love walk".
Do you really feel that your knowledge of The Word is soooooo much more accurate than that of all the ministries not related to The Way?
Wonder, I'm still in and wishing and praying (yes WISHING) every day for my family to see the hipocracy and lies and legalism of twi. It hsan't gottten any better since you left.
rosie still hasn't confessed to setting up women for lcm and allowing his activities. donna m still lives in the corps chalet and serves as rosie's right hand woman. they ahven't changed all their laws and rules. the people are still afraid of saying or doing the worng thing.
They still manipulate your time and question you about how you spend it and your money. All the teachings are the same old boring crap that they have been. You'll at least learn more and see things from a different angle if you check out a few churches. You'll also see what real "love of God" is in those churches. You can pick and choose what you want to participate in and you'll be able to give in the areas that bless you to give.
Yes, it's hard looking for a new church and it s*cks being lonely. One of the offshoot websites has a place where you can look up those people who have left who may have been very dear friends of yours at one time. Maybe look them up and spend some genuinely good times catching up with old friends.
I envy you. I really do. I wish I had the freedoms that you have because you aren't enslaved by twi and forced to follow their stupid rules.
Washingtonweather is correct about you being very suspect in the eyes of Corps and leaders. As I mentioned, I'm in but on my way out. When we got "old grad" referrals, it was assumed they wouldn't stick around and would be a pain in the butt. The reaction of our corps was almost as if they were more of problem than they were worth.
Obviously, you'll have to make your own decisions. I think I can honestly claim to have be careful in my decision and not just emotional. The irony is that I have applied the standards I was taught by TWI and concluded they are harmful to me. Many people who had problems were M&A because "you know people by their fruit." If that's the case, these people must be horrific in some way. For me, the evidence has become overwhelming.
On the positive side, this site has allowed me to ask questions I would NEVER have asked at fellowship. I'll echo what others have said which is make sure you look carefully before you leap.
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Steve!
Wonder - most here will tell you that you shouldn't go back.
Craig was a symptom, not the cause.
True, there won't be any churches anywhere that share 100% of your beliefs with you.
But there are TWI splinter groups, known as offshoots, and many of the churches around, even though they may not have a corner on truth, still have wonderful warm hearted people, and manifest the love of God much more than has been evident in TWI for quite some time.
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Wonder
Thanks Steve. We went to a few. They all think JC is God. It is not easy. It just breaks my heart that we gave up so much to be with that ministry and now we have nothing.
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Dot Matrix
Welcome -
You may want to do a search on Unitarian churches.
The freedom of being gone, is worth more to me than over looking a few things I do not agree with in church.
I love Joyce Myer but she believes in the trinity. But she seems to be kind to people unlike TWI. So, I just try to find a place CLOSE to what I believe in. If they are kind and love God -- it means a lot.
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Dot Matrix
Most of us know how you feel. It is a jolt to the system to realize all you gave to an organization - doesn't it?
Hang around.
I am looking for this one place I know of, that you might like. I think it was called grapevines or something. I will be back.
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Steve!
Or heck, just work on making friends where you are, and work on developing interests, and learning who you are.
While in TWI you probably didn't really have all that much time to have hobbies, or join bowling leagues, or any of that kind of thing.
Start living a real life again! There's more to life than meetings!
Heck, a couple of years ago, I volunteered (!) at a Roman Catholic (!) Church's community barbecue - just for the fun of it. I met some wonderful people, and had a great time.
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Oneluckymutha
Dear Wondering,
In my years since leaving TWI I've come to the conclusion that no one group or person has all "the truth" perfectly anyway. You are assuming that TWI is so close to the truth. But how much have you looked around?
Even if you went to a church or fellowship that didn't sync up with what you believe to be the truth doesn't mean you can't learn something from them. I've been to some large churches & small fellowships and learned as much of the bible from them as when I was in TWI. And met some very godly loving people, too.
Why not pray about it & see where God leads you. Or what people he will bring into your life? Also, you might go to some fellowships that are off the wall. So what, just move on. When we move & make an effort, then God can start moving.
I think TWI put so much fear into us about "the world" and other religious groups. That's just typical cult mentality. To make you so afraid of being exposed to other evil teachings. Hey, God is working within us & we have brains to decide these things. You DON'T need someone telling you every minute of the day what to think or feel.
Life can be an interesting journey with God. It's O.K. not to live in a perfect protective bubble (i.e., cult) that "protects" us from screwing up.
Well, don't know if I've articulated this very well but here's my main point: Trust God to lead you, not some group or person.
Love,
Oneluckymutha
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herbiejuan
Wonder, you really have everything.
You have the freedom to live life according to your dictates not the prevailing delusion. You have the right to reexamine your beliefs and change them if/when they don't fit any longer and you have the rest of your life to make new friends who won't judge you according to what corpse you were in or what minimog you are pals with.
Wishing you the best in your new found freedom,
Mike
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Tom Strange
Wonder... when you say "We cannot find any type of fellowship close to the truth." Do you mean "TWI Truth" or "God's Word Truth"?
They are not the same you know. Many things that TWI got us to buy into as truth were their private interpretation that fit where they wanted us all to go. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow, but that's what it was.
Now, you're probably going to find some "religiosity" at whichever fellowship or church you decide to go to, try to look at the love in the folks hearts to balance that...
One thing you've got to do if you ever hope to be happy fellowshipping again is not think that what you got in TWI is "THE TRUTH"... granted, there was a lot there, but it was mixed in with so much more guano than you'll ever realize.
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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DATWAY
Hi Wonder, my wife and I tried the splinters too,but feel they are headed down the same legalistic path, the word promises that will happen if we start adding rules.
Anyway I would take a break from looking as hard as that is and start RE-working everything we were taught with a honest heart for God and he will open your eyes to more than ever thought possible. Missing the fellowship can be replaced by a few good friends ,and a glass of wine. We took the time to start helping someone else and God blessed us with peace like we had never seen in 20 years in TWI.
If you ask God for understanding it will be there, (keyword) ASK. We don't demand anything and we have true abundance now.
Replacing what God can teach you can not be done by ANY group. My opinions are free and I believe they may or may not help.
Welcome to the spot!!
WAYWho?
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Dot Matrix
http://64.26.1.249/
If you choose to be a unitarian this group is such. Also Tom is VERY right!
Stick around, you will be shocked at some of the lies or mistruths we learned.
Some still regard TWI as "the truth" while many others have found a lot wrong with what they have taught.
May I suggest a few talks with Rafael...
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Dot Matrix
While I was typing a bunch of people posted ALL HAVE GREAT THOUGHTS ON THE SUBJECT!
Hang in there!
Freedom is a wonderful thing. MAy I ask why you would even consider going back?
Lonely?
Many here were lost to friends and family when we left. Stick around. There will be new people that you will meet who will LOVE you!
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JustThinking
Is this an old thread? Some dates are '02 and others more recent. Or is this just something that surfaced accidently?
Wonder,
If you're still here, I'm on my way out and can share my thoughts, if you're interested.
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Paradiseden
No,I would check out Christian Educational Services (CES) or Christian Family Fellowship (CFF) before I would go back to the Way.
Both of these organizations have maintained certain biblical teaching and principals learned from the Way they believe to be true. CES has changed a lot of the doctrinal error in Way teachings. CFF has kept most of the Way teachings but it is without all the legalism and dishonesty you find in the Way leadership.
Why would you go back to the Way when they:
1) Continue to lie to the followers.
2) Continue to practice a huge double standard (for example...the whole situation with Martindale including his wife still at the Way campus and he is not (she should have been required to leave with him)...no one else is allowed that convenience. This is only one example. If necessary, I can give MANY more.
3) Continue to avoid the...debt issue (no public policy change)....adultery issue..no printed material stating they believe it is wrong from scripture... tithing/abundant sharing issue...WE DO NOT HAVE TO GIVE A MINIMUM 10% OR GOD WILL NOT BLESS US.
I could go on but what is the point.
Tell me one thing that has changed that now makes it better. Please do not say a more kind and gentle TWI....that may be what they want you to believe...however,their actions say different.
I can relate to your need for fellowship. Please make your decision on what will bless you. If you believe going back to the Way is the answer, then that is what you should do. Pray (I will pray for you) and ask God. I am sure your answer will come.
Caps for emphasis.
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Oakspear
Ditto what Tom Strange said
How do you know that what TWI has is "The Truth"?
Despite Wierwille's claims that he would teach us the keys to "the Word's" interpretation and how we could work the Word ourselves, we really just sat in awed wonder at what we were taught. Any "research" was done only to back up what was already taught.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Tom Strange
One other thing I would add, Wonder, while you're looking for a place to fellowship...
TWI tricked us all into thinking that to "fellowship with like minded believers" really meant "same minded"... I don't think you'll ever find any person, much less a whole group, who are going to agree with you 100% right down the line...
It's just not humanly possible for that to happen... except in a cult...
TWI would have us turn away from those folks that didn't agree with us 100% never giving us the chance to bless them or be blessed by them...
But ya know, there's nothing to fear from them, they can't make you change your mind if you don't want to, there are a lot of beautiful, wonderful, giving folks out there full of love.
Their goal in life isn't necessarily to "get everything right".
Their goal is to love God and his people to the best of their ability.
Trust God, he's been there before for you.
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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washingtonweather
the question I ask myself in huge direction turns is (at least one of the things I or my husband and I consider)
Are we running from? or are we running towards?
Are we lookin' to just get, or is there any giving we can do?
Who else will it impact----once in TWI---you arent really supposed to get out again.....And having left once and after 4 years returning again for a time (aprox 7 yrs) I can tell you:
YOU WILL BE SUSPECTED (of less than 100% spirituality) AND UNDER SCRUTINY FOR UNDIVIDED LOYALTY.
I think before you go back, reading a book called "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" will promote careful thinking in this matter....not written about TWI specifically at all, but it will illustrate some objective ways to approach things when thinking through what healthy verses unhealthy christian environments are like.
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Dot Matrix
Just thinking you are looking at dates registered. Look on the BOTTOM of the post. It is a new thread!
:)-->
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JustThinking
Dot,
Thank you. This is what I get for posting while dying from the flu. (Where IS my believing?!) I'm going back to bed now.
>:-|
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Too Gray Now
Wonder,
I sort of asked a similar question... Being alone does suc*. Agree with that. But leaving TWI gave us (Mrs. Too Gray and me) a chance to look at why we were so horribly alone. Hangups about non-essential stuff was keeping us alone in our own hearts. There are different ways of praise and worship, all sorts of stuff that formed a huge stumbling block to us. We were very STUCK in ?our? ways.
We never entertained an idea of going back to TWI, though. For us, life had to move on. So I fell back to what was in my heart. In other words, before I was ?Way Corps?, I was a believer. Before I took the class, God did some great stuff in my life. And frankly, that had left a permanent mark on me. Everything else was just stuff in a tightly clinched fist. I needed to let go.
So we went back to those realities and rebuilt everything from there. By focusing on Him, rather than doctrine, we found others. I have met some fantastic people since TWI days.
My doctrine has changed 5 fold, if not more. Not because I now throw away things easily, but once you are fully ?out? from under the hold of TWI, things are ALLOWED to change, naturally ? normally. There is no pressure to remain true to doctrine at the expense of staying true to what is in your heart.
What really matters is what YOU believe. Not what you are supposed to believe? not what ?they? believe.
Best to you? in your struggles. Sorry for the long post. You made me re-live the incident.
;)-->
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chwester
Wonder-
Just a note to make you think.
What makes you think that you are the enlightened one who knows "the truth"? It honestly sounds very pompous, prideful, and like Wayfer talk.
All I'm trying to do is make you see that the Way is not the only ones with the truth. They were wrong on many points. I attend a church that believes in the trinity, that the dead are alive, and in water baptism. I am convinced that God led me there.
You should stop being so concerned about "doctrine" and be more concerned about the two most important commandments named by Jesus Christ--to love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself. When you have mastered those two things, then you can move on to the other less important things.
I'm sincerely not trying to give you a hard time. But you need some serious "deprograming" of sorts. God has put his hand of blessing on many ministries that dont believe exactly as you do(or as I do). Find a church or any kind of group that loves God and others. And get busy being a blessing and contributing to their lives.
God obviously stopped blessing The Way many years ago. Why? Obviously God is not that concerned about the knowledge you possess about His Word. He is concerned with your "love walk".
Do you really feel that your knowledge of The Word is soooooo much more accurate than that of all the ministries not related to The Way?
Proud to be an American
www.northpoint.org
www.anncoulter.org
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excathedra
dear wonder,
i haven't read your thread yet
i just want to say don't be too hasty in going back
you sound like a beautiful soul and i think you and your wife deserve to be happy
and please both or either of you feel free to email me at excathedra2000@yahoo.com, okay ?
best best best thoughts and heart for how you feel right now
?
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insurgent
Wonder, I'm still in and wishing and praying (yes WISHING) every day for my family to see the hipocracy and lies and legalism of twi. It hsan't gottten any better since you left.
rosie still hasn't confessed to setting up women for lcm and allowing his activities. donna m still lives in the corps chalet and serves as rosie's right hand woman. they ahven't changed all their laws and rules. the people are still afraid of saying or doing the worng thing.
They still manipulate your time and question you about how you spend it and your money. All the teachings are the same old boring crap that they have been. You'll at least learn more and see things from a different angle if you check out a few churches. You'll also see what real "love of God" is in those churches. You can pick and choose what you want to participate in and you'll be able to give in the areas that bless you to give.
Yes, it's hard looking for a new church and it s*cks being lonely. One of the offshoot websites has a place where you can look up those people who have left who may have been very dear friends of yours at one time. Maybe look them up and spend some genuinely good times catching up with old friends.
I envy you. I really do. I wish I had the freedoms that you have because you aren't enslaved by twi and forced to follow their stupid rules.
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BackForty
insurgent, continue to hang tough as you have been.
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JustThinking
Wonder,
Washingtonweather is correct about you being very suspect in the eyes of Corps and leaders. As I mentioned, I'm in but on my way out. When we got "old grad" referrals, it was assumed they wouldn't stick around and would be a pain in the butt. The reaction of our corps was almost as if they were more of problem than they were worth.
Obviously, you'll have to make your own decisions. I think I can honestly claim to have be careful in my decision and not just emotional. The irony is that I have applied the standards I was taught by TWI and concluded they are harmful to me. Many people who had problems were M&A because "you know people by their fruit." If that's the case, these people must be horrific in some way. For me, the evidence has become overwhelming.
On the positive side, this site has allowed me to ask questions I would NEVER have asked at fellowship. I'll echo what others have said which is make sure you look carefully before you leap.
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