I believe there is a vast difference between being a sinner according to the old nature, as the bible says, and living in, wallowing in and justifying continuous on-going relationship with.... SIN.
These points are stressed with another GS poster in mind....guess who....
This is the first time I ever considered things in quite this way. Always before I had some sort of excuse running around (planted by teaching) in my head...like...
It was a corporation, what could he do? (He could have walked away and denounced it all, that's what!)
HQ was his family home, where else was he going to go? (He could have done exactly what he demanded others do...move on!)
His own children were deeply involved, he had to keep up the facade for their inheritance, at least. (He didn't tolerate such smarmy excuses from anyone else! And, in the end, his children were ousted anyway.)
All of these people were his "brothers and sisters in christ", he couldn't just walk away from the "body". (He walked away from his first "body of believers", didn't he? His life proved out that he was never that concerned about the outcome of his actions.)
I didn't know I had these cheap trick lines in my brain...until I recently fell for a cheap trick "better understanding" possibility.
The bottom line here is that the man at any time could have put a stop to it all. But he didn't. It really doesn't matter why he didn't...what matters is that he had the opportunity to undo what he had done...and he didn't.
The fact is that I kept going back for more...even if it was just recently for more of an "understanding".
There's really nothing to understand though...except that it was all a charade.
I may never know the why's...but I do know it was a tragedy that could have never happened...or at least didn't have to go on as long as it did.
But there was always someone like me out there to excuse it all...
As usual, you're looking at only one side of the coin. Lots and lots of folks got blessed in TWI-1. Why should it have been stopped when so many folks benefitted? Even some who now faithfully trash TWI have said they've gleaned godly things from it. It wasn't all a charade.
oldies: If the ministry truly were God's Special Gift to the 20th century, it would not have mattered. In an ideal TWI, VPW would have confessed his transgressions, stepped down from the pulpit, and made restitution to his victims. The ministry would have gone on unabated, because the MOGFODAT would have shown that he was not above the Word he preached. VPW's pride wouldn't let him salvage any shred of integrity.
Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall--Proverbs
It seems to me that you keep missing the point. Any good that came out of TWI (and there was quite a lot, in many people's lives) can only be attributed to God, working for and through the faithful and true. It happened in spite of VPW's sins, not because of any particular virtue of his. Bashing VPW is not always bashing those believers who didn't fall prey to the insidious lure.
Suppose TWI were a car. I may be happy with mine, and you ecstatic with yours, but unfortunately, others bought a lemon or a dangerous deathtrap. In all cases the salesman was only the salesman--it was the product that counted. Now, most have just junked their TWI "car". Some are still running, but nowhere near like they used to. Others have traded for a different car, some have sworn off driving altogether. There are still a few operating Edsels around, mostly for curiosity's sake, but the more Yugos and Pintos off the road, the better off we all are.
Not a perfect analogy by any stretch of the imagination, yet time has told that VPW himself wasn't responsible for much of the direct good done, but bore major responsibility for the bad.
quote:... Any good that came out of TWI (and there was quite a lot, in many people's lives) can only be attributed to God, working for and through the faithful and true. It happened in spite of VPW's sins, not because of any particular virtue of his. ...
Zix, I happen to disagree with you here but don't have a problem with what you've said either. But at any rate, folks don't see this EVEN IF it was ONLY God responsible for the godly things going on. It appears that no matter what, some folks will always think (or consistently proclaim) it was all just a phony charade.
When I finally broke away from twi (the organization...but not yet the stuff left in my head), it was with the help of a therapist that specialized in cults.
She had grown up in the same town as Jim Jones and had watched him go from a local kid to what he ended up being.
One thing she pointed out to me was that people are never totally bad or totally good...and that is how cult leaders end up as cult leaders.
I can only speculate what would have happened had vpw brought everything to a halt, repented, and then started over again if he still felt the "calling".
But I can say without any speculation that if a person knows that what they are doing has turned sour, the responsibility of what happens lies heavily upon that person's shoulders.
It's like a family (kinda). If a very good, wonderful, loving mother becomes depressed and perpetrates or allows terrible, terrible things (violence, sexual abuse, etc), wouldn't it be the smart thing for her family to remove her from the home and get her into treatment?
in the end, the love you make is equal to the love you take.
I forgive you for what you did, but I agree, why didn't you stop it when you had the chance? why did you turn things over to someone you knew would hurts us more? that wasen't very nice of you.
AMEN, DOVEY! There is one certain RC's wife who knew a lot and was tasked with "counselling" several women hurt by both twi's mogfarts, but she never did one da** thing about stopping the behavior or exposing the corruption. This woman and her family are still on twi payroll. Maybe that's why she's kept her mouth shut.
You've actually made me realize something. While I hurt for people here who were harmed directly, I didn't realize I was also. Because of fear, I endured seeing people run over and did nothing. I've only thought of them up to this point and didn't even consider my only feelings. My opinion is that they still had it worse but it's something I'll have to deal with.
I don't know how to cope with this sometimes. My own daughter is one of those who were hurt while I kept silent...at least until I burst and couldn't keep silent anymore. She's still so hurt that she won't let me close enough to even apologize.
I understand that, though. I've been that hurt.
Maybe those of us here who "share the pain" can figure out what it takes to heal up such things...
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alfakat
CW--such is the nature of un-repented sin, IMHO.
I believe there is a vast difference between being a sinner according to the old nature, as the bible says, and living in, wallowing in and justifying continuous on-going relationship with.... SIN.
These points are stressed with another GS poster in mind....guess who....
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OnionEater
Money and power
Thus Sayeth "The OnionEater"
Ayuh
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excathedra
dear mr vpw you are an idiot
?
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CoolWaters
This is the first time I ever considered things in quite this way. Always before I had some sort of excuse running around (planted by teaching) in my head...like...
I didn't know I had these cheap trick lines in my brain...until I recently fell for a cheap trick "better understanding" possibility.
The bottom line here is that the man at any time could have put a stop to it all. But he didn't. It really doesn't matter why he didn't...what matters is that he had the opportunity to undo what he had done...and he didn't.
The fact is that I kept going back for more...even if it was just recently for more of an "understanding".
There's really nothing to understand though...except that it was all a charade.
I may never know the why's...but I do know it was a tragedy that could have never happened...or at least didn't have to go on as long as it did.
But there was always someone like me out there to excuse it all...
?????????????
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oldiesman
Coolwaters,
As usual, you're looking at only one side of the coin. Lots and lots of folks got blessed in TWI-1. Why should it have been stopped when so many folks benefitted? Even some who now faithfully trash TWI have said they've gleaned godly things from it. It wasn't all a charade.
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CoolWaters
OM,
Your post is one for the "Broken Logic?" thread I just started...
?????????????
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Zixar
oldies: If the ministry truly were God's Special Gift to the 20th century, it would not have mattered. In an ideal TWI, VPW would have confessed his transgressions, stepped down from the pulpit, and made restitution to his victims. The ministry would have gone on unabated, because the MOGFODAT would have shown that he was not above the Word he preached. VPW's pride wouldn't let him salvage any shred of integrity.
Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall--Proverbs
It seems to me that you keep missing the point. Any good that came out of TWI (and there was quite a lot, in many people's lives) can only be attributed to God, working for and through the faithful and true. It happened in spite of VPW's sins, not because of any particular virtue of his. Bashing VPW is not always bashing those believers who didn't fall prey to the insidious lure.
Suppose TWI were a car. I may be happy with mine, and you ecstatic with yours, but unfortunately, others bought a lemon or a dangerous deathtrap. In all cases the salesman was only the salesman--it was the product that counted. Now, most have just junked their TWI "car". Some are still running, but nowhere near like they used to. Others have traded for a different car, some have sworn off driving altogether. There are still a few operating Edsels around, mostly for curiosity's sake, but the more Yugos and Pintos off the road, the better off we all are.
Not a perfect analogy by any stretch of the imagination, yet time has told that VPW himself wasn't responsible for much of the direct good done, but bore major responsibility for the bad.
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oldiesman
Zix, I happen to disagree with you here but don't have a problem with what you've said either. But at any rate, folks don't see this EVEN IF it was ONLY God responsible for the godly things going on. It appears that no matter what, some folks will always think (or consistently proclaim) it was all just a phony charade.
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CoolWaters
OM,
When I finally broke away from twi (the organization...but not yet the stuff left in my head), it was with the help of a therapist that specialized in cults.
She had grown up in the same town as Jim Jones and had watched him go from a local kid to what he ended up being.
One thing she pointed out to me was that people are never totally bad or totally good...and that is how cult leaders end up as cult leaders.
I can only speculate what would have happened had vpw brought everything to a halt, repented, and then started over again if he still felt the "calling".
But I can say without any speculation that if a person knows that what they are doing has turned sour, the responsibility of what happens lies heavily upon that person's shoulders.
It's like a family (kinda). If a very good, wonderful, loving mother becomes depressed and perpetrates or allows terrible, terrible things (violence, sexual abuse, etc), wouldn't it be the smart thing for her family to remove her from the home and get her into treatment?
?????????????
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wyteduv58
I'd like to know also why didn't those others that knew about it didn't tell everyone. I know all the bot knew. why?
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... too dumb to post pics http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?s=9716057...a&ul=4846073735
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papajohn
dear vpw,
in the end, the love you make is equal to the love you take.
I forgive you for what you did, but I agree, why didn't you stop it when you had the chance? why did you turn things over to someone you knew would hurts us more? that wasen't very nice of you.
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dmiller
PapaJohn -- one word only to your last post there. and that is Amen.
:)-->
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insurgent
AMEN, DOVEY! There is one certain RC's wife who knew a lot and was tasked with "counselling" several women hurt by both twi's mogfarts, but she never did one da** thing about stopping the behavior or exposing the corruption. This woman and her family are still on twi payroll. Maybe that's why she's kept her mouth shut.
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CoolWaters
The hardest thing about looking back on my twi/twi offshoot years is remembering when I kept silent...
It makes me cry with shame.
I wish I could apologize and undo what I did.
?????????????
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JustThinking
CW,
I share your pain.
You've actually made me realize something. While I hurt for people here who were harmed directly, I didn't realize I was also. Because of fear, I endured seeing people run over and did nothing. I've only thought of them up to this point and didn't even consider my only feelings. My opinion is that they still had it worse but it's something I'll have to deal with.
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CoolWaters
{{{{{JT}}}}}
I don't know how to cope with this sometimes. My own daughter is one of those who were hurt while I kept silent...at least until I burst and couldn't keep silent anymore. She's still so hurt that she won't let me close enough to even apologize.
I understand that, though. I've been that hurt.
Maybe those of us here who "share the pain" can figure out what it takes to heal up such things...
?????????????
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