I'm not sure which thread to put this in, but I guess this one will do. :)-->
Although there was elitism ad nauseum in twi, I honestly don't think the differences in the way we all celebrated Christmas were really about whether one was in an "elite" group or not. I think these variations had a lot more to do with what kind of "leadership" we had and whether we felt comfortable telling them to buzz off when they tried to impose stupid, legalistic do's and don'ts on us.
I think it's like anything else in twi. There is no universal "we." While we ex-wayfers have a lot of things in common, our experiences are all over the place.
Some of us had loving, down-to-earth "leaders" and some of us had ambitious, legalistic jokers who couldn't find their butts in the dark with both hands and a flashlight, so they were always trying to tell us where our butts should be.
I surely was never in any elevated (or remotely elite!) position, either before the Corps or after graduating--unless you count cleaning toilets at the Rock or working for low wages at HQ for the Queen of Hell as prestigious positions! :)-->
Another thing I think we have to remember is that when VPW said "Christ doesn't need a mass," or that "the origin of the Christmas tree was Pagan worship," the VP-pleasers on the field (going to the great lengths those types always went to to be spurtchul), created all sorts of ridiculous, ungodly laws and did their damnedest to get people to follow them.
Meanwhile, Christmas celebrations went on at HQ and the campuses in much the same way as they're enjoyed everywhere else, except for calling it "Household Holidays."
Linda Z
PS. What exsie said: I hope Christmas today and all the Christmases to come more than make up for the dimbulbs you had to put up with.
[This message was edited by Linda Z on December 16, 2003 at 17:14.]
Linda, my thoughts are as yours regarding the leadership that we all had. Some had loving, down to earth leaders, and some had leaders from hell!!!
I got out in 1994, but prior to that, I had one man who TOLD me to do something. His name is Harve Platig, and he was right on in what he told me. I obeyed and everything has turned out great in my life.
But I dated 'unbelievers' and went anywhere I wanted to go and with whom, moved to different states for MY JOB, and only once did a tc wife advise me not to move due to how that company that screwed over me before. But I moved anyway. I stayed with the company for 18 years.
But I do regret spending so much time on my 'spiritual' life and not on my career moves. But God has still blessed me above measure. (Thanks again for the hat!!!)
I think everything turned out great because you're you and because you have a heart that trusts God! And it's very possible that Harvey gave you good advice.
I never had Harvey for a leader, but he always struck me as a nice guy when I was around him on staff. I'm sorry that he got sucked into playing Rosie's yes man. I hope someday he figures it out and gets the heck out of that place in New Knoxville.
But I do regret spending so much time on my 'spiritual' life and not on my career moves. But God has still blessed me above measure. (Thanks again for the hat!!!)
The decisions we make today form our future.
For the last year I put my career & financial situations in God's hands....well I am still broke and in debt. I got yelled at by someone in the offshoot I attend because I work a lot, they want me to have God handle it.....whhaaattttt......
Remind that buttinski that there is a balance in life. Sometimes it's time to pray for no rain, and sometimes it's time to repair the roof. Only you and God know the difference, and it's nobody's flippin' business to decide that for you.
Please don't let anyone "guilt" you into not doing what YOU know is best for your life.
Do what you need to do to improve your financial situation, and if the people in your fellowship don't like it, start your own. Read the Bible by yourself for a while. Join a club. Join a church. Or don't. It's YOUR life.
I'm praying that your financial situation improves, but if you need to work lots of hours to help that along, it's for you to decide--no one else.
((No Way))
Linda Z
PS. That person might mean well. I did when I told a friend of mine once that he "wasn't believing God" when he couldn't go to some stupid weekend meeting instead of working. I was being a jerk. Fortunately, he had the good sense to ignore me. :-)
i actually got told that i am being "tricked" for cutting fellowship this week to finish up some stuff for school and to spend a night with someone not in the word. i usually would go to 2 fellowships a week but i realized i no longer have a life, and since i'm working a lot and in school and 2 nights of fellowship, my brain is everywhere. i just hope to get fully out fairly soon without hurting anyone. thanks for the hugs, i need them.
i love to read the bible, but i think the whole fellowship thing is just putting me in a wrong path. i suffer many emotional problems that after fellowship i learned to ignore them. ahhh well....
Some of the worst advise I ever got was in TWI and thier so-called leaders and some of the best from others in TWI and some good advise from outsiders. I think its the person giving the advise too. One thing I didn't do was to sell my house that advise came from an "unbeleiver".
Another bit of advise I wish I'd never listened to was to go in the way corpse.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
I read your response yesterday and have thought about it ever since.
I was a very scared, very hurt, very lost 16yo girl when I first encountered twi. The first branch I was involved with was a "free love" and "blow your mind" type of branch. I got sex, drugs, rock and roll, and being justified all in one fell swoop. They told me my parents were "devilish". What scared, hurt and lost 16yo wouldn't have become addicted to such an organization?
**********************
ExC,
Yeah...
Thank you! You too!
**********************
Linda,
You hit the nail on the head when you said, "...whether we felt comfortable telling them to buzz off when they tried to impose stupid, legalistic do's and don'ts on us."
That is what I'm talking about when I talk about "the elite". As a lowly twigite, I never felt comfortable speaking up to my "leadership"...it just wasn't allowed without some horrible repercussions. I felt that if I had planned to take the AC, go WOW or corpse, or had aspired to the higher echelons of twi, I would not have met with such disdain for asking questions or having my own mind. But since I was happy to be a twiggie and nothing else, I was considered spiritually immature and was not to be trusted with "deeper truths".
Perhaps that's the answer to my question.
Thank you for the warm wish! Back atcha! :D-->
*******************
NoWay,
Nobody knows what's best for your life but you. Do what your heart tells you to do. If you are wrong, then you will have learned something. If you are right, then you will have gained confidence.
But if you act on what someone else tells you for your life and it turns out wrong, then all you can do is blame and wonder. If it turns out OK, then all you can do is become more dependant upon them and lose self-confidence...it will make you into a puppet very quickly!
Been thinking about your initial question, and I think my experience with TWI was pretty opposite than yours. And here's why.....Although I too was a teen when I got involved, shortly after I "took the class," all my siblings as well as my parents did too. Then Grandma and aunts and uncles and cousins "took PFAL." Well, my parents and family members of their generation were in their late 30's to early 40's, and I think Grandma was 80 when she took PFAL. Nobody really butted into their lives too much as far as "leadership" went. I guess because they were older, more mature, and established in life. And even though I went in the Way Corps and all that, my family connections were stronger than any other bonds in TWI. Since most of the people I loved and cared about were just "lowly twiggies," I think I related to their needs and concerns more than whatever mandate was issued from the Vatican, oops I mean HQ.
And too, I married someone as, did my brother, whose entire family was in TWI as well, grandmas included. So we had this huge network of people who we were related to and connected with, who weren't too interested in the "politics of the ministry," they just liked going to a home bible study and praying and reading the bible with other people and stuff. A novel idea for my humongous Roman Catholic family.
So our circumstances were radically different I think, which led us to have really different experiences in the way. I still think it was a cult, though because of it being all about VPW instead of God or Jesus.
TYVM. That makes a whole lot of sense, too. It seems that many people had "natural" family in at some point. That is quite a safety net...until one tries to leave, I guess.
TY for the warm holiday wishes! I wish the same for you and yours. :D-->
quote:Yet I am always reading how "normal" life was for many people here...like how Santa came to HQ and RC.
I'm going...HUH?????? What twi were you all in?????
I was "in" from 1973 til 1991. Maybe it was different for me because I believed the part about everyone being equal spiritually and no one was better than anyone else; that God chose me before the foundation of the world and that Christ died for me, too and there was no special dispensation for "leadership". Maybe it was because I was a wife and mother raising 2 kids and thought of as not important enough to pick on. Maybe it was because I knew the bible enough to throw chapter and verse back in their faces when someone got in mine.
At the last ROA I attended, whenever PP came out, I could feel the wierdness in the air. Tho at that time I had been dropped from the corps, I believed only God could drop me from the household, so I asked my friends, insiders etc what in the he** was going on. And when I was told, I went home to FL and decided to be true to myself and the bible I knew. And when it got really wierd, I left.
I surely cannot change any part of my years with The Way...they were formative in that I lived thru them, grew, prospered, and blossomed...in spite of myself and whatever the organization and its attendant pneumanazis mutated into over the years...God's mercy and grace are boundless...but this has all been waydalized as well as visited and revisted here in the Cafe.
Like (((ex10))) and mine (((Zeester))) and my where the heck have you been(((Cat)))pal...I had a thinking, discerning brain in the thick of TWI. I was very much thrilled with knowing (and getting to know) about God and Jesus Christ (and am probably more fresh faced now than I was in 1972, in many ways). My "experience" was overall very good -spasmatic sphincterage was present in the early daze and the later daze- but it was never their drum I was marching to...at least not since '86 or so, when I officially pulled the bumper sticker off the car. It was ouchless...miss many of the people, tho.
...so oh blah dee oh blah dah...it's been a roller coaster ride, but I'm strapped in and ready to continue on. Have to, til I'm done...
I hope all who hurt can somehow be comforted, and healed, and enjoy the great company of friends old and new along their way...and that their voices can swirl together in laughter, song, and a heartful cognizance that this God and Jesus thing is for real.
quote:Other things like pictures on our walls had to be "officially acceptable"...knick-knacks could not be "graven images"...books had to be checked out by "older grads" for "devil spirit influence"...jewelry could not in any way appear to be any sort of amulet or charm (the silver charm bracelet from my dad was a no-no...it kept me tied to my "unbeliever, idolotrous" family)...even my high school schedule had to go through a leadership approval process. Everything "normal" in life was suspect.
Yet I am always reading how "normal" life was for many people here...like how Santa came to HQ and RC. I'm going...HUH?????? What twi were you all in?????
CW,
I was in the TWI-1 that wasn't restrictive and/or anal retentive at all. Good leadership who loved folks and just wanted God's will to prevail in people's lives. Even tithing/ABS wasn't micromanaged...those were the days when you were allowed to give cash...
I'll intercept this one, and Oldiesman will probably concur...TWI 1, aka The Way, was latest 60s, early 70s especially, lasting awhile...altho the corset started to strangle the Body all along little by little, I think.
In 1972, I was delighted, grateful, humbled, and thrilled to see the Bible live (a first for me) and to live and learn with others on the same quest. I was 20.......
...now I'm not...lol...
...but I am grateful for the faithfulness of God and the grace He so liberally doled out...enuf to wallow in for years...lol...now I'm still grateful, and relearning every day.
It's okay not to know that you know that you know everything...lol...it truly is a second, by minute, by hour, by day thing...
yes so did I. But, there were things happening even when I got in in 1974. Watching who gave abs and how much. Maybe you just weren't in the know, oldiesman?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Tom Strange
pretty sad huh CW??? they did their best to make you co-dependent...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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Lightside
So, you knew R*ch Ur*hart?
Did you know that he is back in Alaska. Sharon is there too, from what I've heard.
R*ch lived in Columbus for about three years. (1994-98)
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excathedra
no fair
double standards
different idiots at different "locales"
i just hope your christmas is very very happy now, CW !!!!
?
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Linda Z
CW:
I'm not sure which thread to put this in, but I guess this one will do.
:)-->
Although there was elitism ad nauseum in twi, I honestly don't think the differences in the way we all celebrated Christmas were really about whether one was in an "elite" group or not. I think these variations had a lot more to do with what kind of "leadership" we had and whether we felt comfortable telling them to buzz off when they tried to impose stupid, legalistic do's and don'ts on us.
I think it's like anything else in twi. There is no universal "we." While we ex-wayfers have a lot of things in common, our experiences are all over the place.
Some of us had loving, down-to-earth "leaders" and some of us had ambitious, legalistic jokers who couldn't find their butts in the dark with both hands and a flashlight, so they were always trying to tell us where our butts should be.
I surely was never in any elevated (or remotely elite!) position, either before the Corps or after graduating--unless you count cleaning toilets at the Rock or working for low wages at HQ for the Queen of Hell as prestigious positions!
:)-->
Another thing I think we have to remember is that when VPW said "Christ doesn't need a mass," or that "the origin of the Christmas tree was Pagan worship," the VP-pleasers on the field (going to the great lengths those types always went to to be spurtchul), created all sorts of ridiculous, ungodly laws and did their damnedest to get people to follow them.
Meanwhile, Christmas celebrations went on at HQ and the campuses in much the same way as they're enjoyed everywhere else, except for calling it "Household Holidays."
Linda Z
PS. What exsie said: I hope Christmas today and all the Christmases to come more than make up for the dimbulbs you had to put up with.
[This message was edited by Linda Z on December 16, 2003 at 17:14.]
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act2
Linda, my thoughts are as yours regarding the leadership that we all had. Some had loving, down to earth leaders, and some had leaders from hell!!!
I got out in 1994, but prior to that, I had one man who TOLD me to do something. His name is Harve Platig, and he was right on in what he told me. I obeyed and everything has turned out great in my life.
But I dated 'unbelievers' and went anywhere I wanted to go and with whom, moved to different states for MY JOB, and only once did a tc wife advise me not to move due to how that company that screwed over me before. But I moved anyway. I stayed with the company for 18 years.
But I do regret spending so much time on my 'spiritual' life and not on my career moves. But God has still blessed me above measure. (Thanks again for the hat!!!)
The decisions we make today form our future.
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Linda Z
act2:
I think everything turned out great because you're you and because you have a heart that trusts God! And it's very possible that Harvey gave you good advice.
I never had Harvey for a leader, but he always struck me as a nice guy when I was around him on staff. I'm sorry that he got sucked into playing Rosie's yes man. I hope someday he figures it out and gets the heck out of that place in New Knoxville.
Linda z
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No Way
For the last year I put my career & financial situations in God's hands....well I am still broke and in debt. I got yelled at by someone in the offshoot I attend because I work a lot, they want me to have God handle it.....whhaaattttt......
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Linda Z
Hi No Way:
Remind that buttinski that there is a balance in life. Sometimes it's time to pray for no rain, and sometimes it's time to repair the roof. Only you and God know the difference, and it's nobody's flippin' business to decide that for you.
Please don't let anyone "guilt" you into not doing what YOU know is best for your life.
Do what you need to do to improve your financial situation, and if the people in your fellowship don't like it, start your own. Read the Bible by yourself for a while. Join a club. Join a church. Or don't. It's YOUR life.
I'm praying that your financial situation improves, but if you need to work lots of hours to help that along, it's for you to decide--no one else.
((No Way))
Linda Z
PS. That person might mean well. I did when I told a friend of mine once that he "wasn't believing God" when he couldn't go to some stupid weekend meeting instead of working. I was being a jerk. Fortunately, he had the good sense to ignore me. :-)
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No Way
i actually got told that i am being "tricked" for cutting fellowship this week to finish up some stuff for school and to spend a night with someone not in the word. i usually would go to 2 fellowships a week but i realized i no longer have a life, and since i'm working a lot and in school and 2 nights of fellowship, my brain is everywhere. i just hope to get fully out fairly soon without hurting anyone. thanks for the hugs, i need them.
i love to read the bible, but i think the whole fellowship thing is just putting me in a wrong path. i suffer many emotional problems that after fellowship i learned to ignore them. ahhh well....
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Oakspear
Check your private topics please
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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wyteduv58
Some of the worst advise I ever got was in TWI and thier so-called leaders and some of the best from others in TWI and some good advise from outsiders. I think its the person giving the advise too. One thing I didn't do was to sell my house that advise came from an "unbeleiver".
Another bit of advise I wish I'd never listened to was to go in the way corpse.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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CoolWaters
no longer needed
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on January 31, 2004 at 21:07.]
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CoolWaters
Tom Strange,
I read your response yesterday and have thought about it ever since.
I was a very scared, very hurt, very lost 16yo girl when I first encountered twi. The first branch I was involved with was a "free love" and "blow your mind" type of branch. I got sex, drugs, rock and roll, and being justified all in one fell swoop. They told me my parents were "devilish". What scared, hurt and lost 16yo wouldn't have become addicted to such an organization?
**********************
ExC,
Yeah...
Thank you! You too!
**********************
Linda,
You hit the nail on the head when you said, "...whether we felt comfortable telling them to buzz off when they tried to impose stupid, legalistic do's and don'ts on us."
That is what I'm talking about when I talk about "the elite". As a lowly twigite, I never felt comfortable speaking up to my "leadership"...it just wasn't allowed without some horrible repercussions. I felt that if I had planned to take the AC, go WOW or corpse, or had aspired to the higher echelons of twi, I would not have met with such disdain for asking questions or having my own mind. But since I was happy to be a twiggie and nothing else, I was considered spiritually immature and was not to be trusted with "deeper truths".
Perhaps that's the answer to my question.
Thank you for the warm wish! Back atcha!
:D-->
*******************
NoWay,
Nobody knows what's best for your life but you. Do what your heart tells you to do. If you are wrong, then you will have learned something. If you are right, then you will have gained confidence.
But if you act on what someone else tells you for your life and it turns out wrong, then all you can do is blame and wonder. If it turns out OK, then all you can do is become more dependant upon them and lose self-confidence...it will make you into a puppet very quickly!
***********************
Dovey,
I got no good advice in twi...none.
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ex10
CW
Been thinking about your initial question, and I think my experience with TWI was pretty opposite than yours. And here's why.....Although I too was a teen when I got involved, shortly after I "took the class," all my siblings as well as my parents did too. Then Grandma and aunts and uncles and cousins "took PFAL." Well, my parents and family members of their generation were in their late 30's to early 40's, and I think Grandma was 80 when she took PFAL. Nobody really butted into their lives too much as far as "leadership" went. I guess because they were older, more mature, and established in life. And even though I went in the Way Corps and all that, my family connections were stronger than any other bonds in TWI. Since most of the people I loved and cared about were just "lowly twiggies," I think I related to their needs and concerns more than whatever mandate was issued from the Vatican, oops I mean HQ.
And too, I married someone as, did my brother, whose entire family was in TWI as well, grandmas included. So we had this huge network of people who we were related to and connected with, who weren't too interested in the "politics of the ministry," they just liked going to a home bible study and praying and reading the bible with other people and stuff. A novel idea for my humongous Roman Catholic family.
So our circumstances were radically different I think, which led us to have really different experiences in the way. I still think it was a cult, though because of it being all about VPW instead of God or Jesus.
Hope you have the happiest of holidays, CW.
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CoolWaters
Ex10,
TYVM. That makes a whole lot of sense, too. It seems that many people had "natural" family in at some point. That is quite a safety net...until one tries to leave, I guess.
TY for the warm holiday wishes! I wish the same for you and yours.
:D-->
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ladycat
I was "in" from 1973 til 1991. Maybe it was different for me because I believed the part about everyone being equal spiritually and no one was better than anyone else; that God chose me before the foundation of the world and that Christ died for me, too and there was no special dispensation for "leadership". Maybe it was because I was a wife and mother raising 2 kids and thought of as not important enough to pick on. Maybe it was because I knew the bible enough to throw chapter and verse back in their faces when someone got in mine.
At the last ROA I attended, whenever PP came out, I could feel the wierdness in the air. Tho at that time I had been dropped from the corps, I believed only God could drop me from the household, so I asked my friends, insiders etc what in the he** was going on. And when I was told, I went home to FL and decided to be true to myself and the bible I knew. And when it got really wierd, I left.
~~Cat
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MATILDA
Hi V,
Still grappling, grappling, still, I see...
I surely cannot change any part of my years with The Way...they were formative in that I lived thru them, grew, prospered, and blossomed...in spite of myself and whatever the organization and its attendant pneumanazis mutated into over the years...God's mercy and grace are boundless...but this has all been waydalized as well as visited and revisted here in the Cafe.
Like (((ex10))) and mine (((Zeester))) and my where the heck have you been(((Cat)))pal...I had a thinking, discerning brain in the thick of TWI. I was very much thrilled with knowing (and getting to know) about God and Jesus Christ (and am probably more fresh faced now than I was in 1972, in many ways). My "experience" was overall very good -spasmatic sphincterage was present in the early daze and the later daze- but it was never their drum I was marching to...at least not since '86 or so, when I officially pulled the bumper sticker off the car. It was ouchless...miss many of the people, tho.
...so oh blah dee oh blah dah...it's been a roller coaster ride, but I'm strapped in and ready to continue on. Have to, til I'm done...
I hope all who hurt can somehow be comforted, and healed, and enjoy the great company of friends old and new along their way...and that their voices can swirl together in laughter, song, and a heartful cognizance that this God and Jesus thing is for real.
Slainte!
X
M
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excathedra
No way
you sure you're not in the way ??
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oldiesman
CW,
I was in the TWI-1 that wasn't restrictive and/or anal retentive at all. Good leadership who loved folks and just wanted God's will to prevail in people's lives. Even tithing/ABS wasn't micromanaged...those were the days when you were allowed to give cash...
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vickles
Oldiesman, what years are considered twi-1?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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MATILDA
Vickles,
I'll intercept this one, and Oldiesman will probably concur...TWI 1, aka The Way, was latest 60s, early 70s especially, lasting awhile...altho the corset started to strangle the Body all along little by little, I think.
In 1972, I was delighted, grateful, humbled, and thrilled to see the Bible live (a first for me) and to live and learn with others on the same quest. I was 20.......
...now I'm not...lol...
...but I am grateful for the faithfulness of God and the grace He so liberally doled out...enuf to wallow in for years...lol...now I'm still grateful, and relearning every day.
It's okay not to know that you know that you know everything...lol...it truly is a second, by minute, by hour, by day thing...
Viva la PDSTRO!
X
M
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oldiesman
Yes I think TWI-1 is the late 70's and prior to that...
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JustThinking
Thanks for the clarification. My assumption was that it was pre-1982 or pre-LCM.
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vickles
yes so did I. But, there were things happening even when I got in in 1974. Watching who gave abs and how much. Maybe you just weren't in the know, oldiesman?
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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