There were those who were idiots, abusive and pointed, demanding and unforgiving.
That was years ago. Only a very few of them can still be remembered clearly in my thoughts. Only a couple really managed to .... me off, and still remain in my thoughts.
I wish to forgive them. I would not trust them again, however. But I think the ones that truly hurt me, I do desire to forgive.
Well, contrary to popular belief I DO NOT think forgiving and being happy go hand in hand.
I believe forgivness should be asked for. Not doled out because I just decide to do it.
BUT, I don't think that forgiveness = healing on the horizontal level....
You rape my daughter---if I forgive you --or if she forgives you , does that make it less painful???
I don't think it means I have to let it dominate my thinking with oceans of bitterness either.
But, I dont force myself to forgive people beacuse its oh so christian or Right or moral or whatever....
I do force myself to acknowledge the facts, and deal with them with as much logical prudence with regard as to the consequences as possible.
REGARDING TWI: I think its oversimplifying the case in many instances to just say--please forgive me or I forgive you...that was one of the most complicated dysfunctional parts of (my life anyhow) that we were part of.
edited to say:
I agree with Lindyhopper on this issue.
[This message was edited by washingtonweather on December 17, 2003 at 19:23.]
Amen to Washington Weather, Steve, Lindy Hopper and M and O.
I can be perfectly happy and not have forgiven TWI. I am not saying I HATE them. I am saying you learn if you touch a hot stove you get burned so you don't do it again.
I learned if you get involved with an abusive lying cult you get burned so I do not do it. I do not play nice with them because they still burn people. What happened needs to be stated over and over again to help others heal. Am I passionate when I talk about it? Yes, I am.
So, Do I feel hatred and get all emotionally constipated -- NO. No, the anger is empowering and cathartic. More like righteous indignation.
To stand up and be counted and say "NO more!" and to call a spade a spade is not a bad thing.
When they stop advocating "sex" with anyone or anything has God's "some what secret blessing" (paraphrase), when they stop lying and demeaning people then I will stop pointing a finger.
I tell people to stop at a red light, do not run with scissors, never give credit card numbers to telephone solicitors, don't walk down alley ways late at night, do lock your doors and stay away from cults that endorse pulling your pants down for the leaders.
I do not think that is hateful or unforgiving. It is just fact. Seeing them, to me, is like watching the exposure of a conman on America's most wanted.
John Walsh warns people. He tells folks what has happened in the past, reveals the history of lies, posts pictures of the offenders and does a public warning. Does that mean he HATES criminals? Or he hates crime and warns people to beware? His show is strong and helps people to recover or keeps them from becoming victims via his shooting it straight from the hip.
This subject "forgiveness" comes around about every six months. I still feel the same way I always have. If you are a criminal and going to hurt people -- I will boldy warn them. If someone views it as unforgiving, frankly I don't give a darn.
For me to see people say, "well, it was not that bad, or well, humans make mistakes... yadda yadda yadda" adds to the damage. It minimizes the crime and in a sweep-it-under-the-rug-and-move-on fashion, kinda makes the offense "smaller" than it is/was in reality.
I think it needs to be shouted from the roof tops "stay away" like America's Most Wanted does, until they either fold or stop doing criminal, or mean things to people. I do not think that is about forgiveness or unforgiveness....
It just needs to be done....
In my humble opinion.... ;)-->
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on December 19, 2003 at 18:47.]
I hope there are many happy returns in your life for coming so far.
You are taking the high road, and I've read your responses, and of course Kit's, which I can and do agree with.
Oh, Galen too (;
...it's like, if you know someone is a theif, you wouldn't tell them where your money is.
Onephile too.
I agree.
Hopefully, this place helps people work out the parts that need recognition ~ one's own accountability for their own adult life and choices, life in general, and TWI's accountability for sucking so bad to far too many.
Yeah, I forgive what twi did to someone I love so very much grew up with, and to me and my kid.
I'm wiser.
I'm lighter emotionally and mentally for working it out/through it because I need to become a better person
...and my nightmare of an individual that would develop if I didn't embrace letting what I can go ~ on behalf of all human error ~ my motivation is not to become...a bitter, mean-spirited, negative, redundant, circular, stuck-in-the-mud, stagnant, irresponsible, blaming, miserable bitch...
I think I've visited that place enough for ME...that's what it felt like to me and reminded me of someone once knew I swore not to become like...
So yeah...you are right IN MY EYES...I speak for MYSELF. And I also lost something there. And almost someone else who barely made it thru that dark shet... and I did lose another...
And I forgive because I am selfish or it's my survivor that says...I deserve better and expect more of myself than to trash every friggen thing and person every day of my life...or at least for years.
It's not my make-up.
I can't do it.
When I'm hurt, I want to heal and 'get over the pain'.
I like living in the present ~ with occasional flasbacks and war stories.
I don't want to trash anything all the time.
It brings me to a place where I don't like myself or others.
Maybe I'm lucky, I do get over things things.
I want to.
Either that, or I'm JUST too stupid!
So, who cares.
I appreciated your post because it let's people take their temperature on this thing.
I'll be damned if some cult is going to take up space, center stage too, in my mind and heart everyday...sorry, I want better. I need a better frame of mind, and 've had worse to forgive than TWI anyday, btw.
The best way to un-invite TWI into your life is to really say bye-bye...
I still like these people here and care very much about what happens to them and about them, and I love reading their humor and see how people are putting it together or having some relationships (hopefully, meanwhile they are pulling it up a notch)
...but TWI
...give that space in my emotional make-up anymore ~ no way, jose
...it ain't worth polluting myself with negativity.
That's all human, social, cultural, humanities, day one errors, people aren't always what they seem crapolla anyway.
Everyone is at a different place.
Thanks,
I liked hearing your take on health and well-being, growing-up, acceptance, overcoming, and willing all goodness into your life...that equals forgiveness (what you have suggested) to me.
Forgiveness has been an issue or life lesson I'm learning the most from anyway.
For me ~ it is a win-win.
Ginger
(ps ~ if errors are here, fill in the right stuff, ok)
Bringing this to the top for some additional reading regarding forgiveness. Also some of these precious posters have passed away, and I was reminded again of how short is our life.
Watchman Nee devotional for today had a note about forgiveness, and it impacted me that because I know my whole life, to the essence of me is only because of the Lord Jesus, forgiving others is no problem. I truly think that "forgive them father for they know not what they do" applies to everyone. Many people are spiritually deaf. My physical ears have quit working. I just don't hear a thing anymore. And I think people who can't hear the Lord are like that spiritually. They just don't get what He is saying at all. And therefore their words are not relatable to what the Lord is saying in the world because they don't hear. They really don't know what they are doing at all. I have touched the hem of His garment and know His forgiveness which put a softness inside me.
Now when the Pharisee that had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have perceived who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him, that she is a sinner. Luke 7.39.
This sinful woman had continually incurred the mockery and disdain of men, plunging her into self-shame. Yet here was Jesus who—so holy yet so approachable—permitted her to stand behind Him and weep at His feet. She wept as a means of pouring forth her agony due to sinning; she wept to discharge the hidden things in her heart; she wept to complain that there was no deliverer; and she wept to express her hope of a Saviour. However, her weeping did not gain Simon’s sympathy; it instead precipitated his silent criticism. Indeed, the tears of sorrow for sin was something a self-righteous Simon could never understand. But this Jesus understood! He first corrected Simon and then testified for the weeping woman, saying, "Her sins which are many are forgiven." This forgiveness has become a gospel to many great sinners ever since.
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metastic&ocular
i only forgive those that have trespassed against me when they are repentant.
is the BOT repentant?
a thing of beauty
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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Galen
Life moves on.
There were those who were idiots, abusive and pointed, demanding and unforgiving.
That was years ago. Only a very few of them can still be remembered clearly in my thoughts. Only a couple really managed to .... me off, and still remain in my thoughts.
I wish to forgive them. I would not trust them again, however. But I think the ones that truly hurt me, I do desire to forgive.
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washingtonweather
Well, contrary to popular belief I DO NOT think forgiving and being happy go hand in hand.
I believe forgivness should be asked for. Not doled out because I just decide to do it.
BUT, I don't think that forgiveness = healing on the horizontal level....
You rape my daughter---if I forgive you --or if she forgives you , does that make it less painful???
I don't think it means I have to let it dominate my thinking with oceans of bitterness either.
But, I dont force myself to forgive people beacuse its oh so christian or Right or moral or whatever....
I do force myself to acknowledge the facts, and deal with them with as much logical prudence with regard as to the consequences as possible.
REGARDING TWI: I think its oversimplifying the case in many instances to just say--please forgive me or I forgive you...that was one of the most complicated dysfunctional parts of (my life anyhow) that we were part of.
edited to say:
I agree with Lindyhopper on this issue.
[This message was edited by washingtonweather on December 17, 2003 at 19:23.]
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Dot Matrix
Amen to Washington Weather, Steve, Lindy Hopper and M and O.
I can be perfectly happy and not have forgiven TWI. I am not saying I HATE them. I am saying you learn if you touch a hot stove you get burned so you don't do it again.
I learned if you get involved with an abusive lying cult you get burned so I do not do it. I do not play nice with them because they still burn people. What happened needs to be stated over and over again to help others heal. Am I passionate when I talk about it? Yes, I am.
So, Do I feel hatred and get all emotionally constipated -- NO. No, the anger is empowering and cathartic. More like righteous indignation.
To stand up and be counted and say "NO more!" and to call a spade a spade is not a bad thing.
When they stop advocating "sex" with anyone or anything has God's "some what secret blessing" (paraphrase), when they stop lying and demeaning people then I will stop pointing a finger.
I tell people to stop at a red light, do not run with scissors, never give credit card numbers to telephone solicitors, don't walk down alley ways late at night, do lock your doors and stay away from cults that endorse pulling your pants down for the leaders.
I do not think that is hateful or unforgiving. It is just fact. Seeing them, to me, is like watching the exposure of a conman on America's most wanted.
John Walsh warns people. He tells folks what has happened in the past, reveals the history of lies, posts pictures of the offenders and does a public warning. Does that mean he HATES criminals? Or he hates crime and warns people to beware? His show is strong and helps people to recover or keeps them from becoming victims via his shooting it straight from the hip.
This subject "forgiveness" comes around about every six months. I still feel the same way I always have. If you are a criminal and going to hurt people -- I will boldy warn them. If someone views it as unforgiving, frankly I don't give a darn.
For me to see people say, "well, it was not that bad, or well, humans make mistakes... yadda yadda yadda" adds to the damage. It minimizes the crime and in a sweep-it-under-the-rug-and-move-on fashion, kinda makes the offense "smaller" than it is/was in reality.
I think it needs to be shouted from the roof tops "stay away" like America's Most Wanted does, until they either fold or stop doing criminal, or mean things to people. I do not think that is about forgiveness or unforgiveness....
It just needs to be done....
In my humble opinion....
;)-->
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on December 19, 2003 at 18:47.]
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BackForty
Thank you Dot! TWI...the UNwanted!
:D-->
____
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excathedra
well back on another thread on this subject.... i said something (ohgod if i can remember it) and johnnysocks thought it was worthwhile
since he is so great, i'll try to re-member-post what i said
**
i do what i can to get by in this life, and i'll take what i get in the next....
love you socks
?
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Dot Matrix
Thank you Back 40.
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Dot Matrix
m and O
Now I see where you got your name-- I was trying to figure it out!
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excathedra
i forgive you all
let us go in peace
in the name of the father and of the son and.....
?
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Ginger Tea
You are a forthright and deep person.
I hope there are many happy returns in your life for coming so far.
You are taking the high road, and I've read your responses, and of course Kit's, which I can and do agree with.
Oh, Galen too (;
...it's like, if you know someone is a theif, you wouldn't tell them where your money is.
Onephile too.
I agree.
Hopefully, this place helps people work out the parts that need recognition ~ one's own accountability for their own adult life and choices, life in general, and TWI's accountability for sucking so bad to far too many.
Yeah, I forgive what twi did to someone I love so very much grew up with, and to me and my kid.
I'm wiser.
I'm lighter emotionally and mentally for working it out/through it because I need to become a better person
...and my nightmare of an individual that would develop if I didn't embrace letting what I can go ~ on behalf of all human error ~ my motivation is not to become...a bitter, mean-spirited, negative, redundant, circular, stuck-in-the-mud, stagnant, irresponsible, blaming, miserable bitch...
I think I've visited that place enough for ME...that's what it felt like to me and reminded me of someone once knew I swore not to become like...
So yeah...you are right IN MY EYES...I speak for MYSELF. And I also lost something there. And almost someone else who barely made it thru that dark shet... and I did lose another...
And I forgive because I am selfish or it's my survivor that says...I deserve better and expect more of myself than to trash every friggen thing and person every day of my life...or at least for years.
It's not my make-up.
I can't do it.
When I'm hurt, I want to heal and 'get over the pain'.
I like living in the present ~ with occasional flasbacks and war stories.
I don't want to trash anything all the time.
It brings me to a place where I don't like myself or others.
Maybe I'm lucky, I do get over things things.
I want to.
Either that, or I'm JUST too stupid!
So, who cares.
I appreciated your post because it let's people take their temperature on this thing.
I'll be damned if some cult is going to take up space, center stage too, in my mind and heart everyday...sorry, I want better. I need a better frame of mind, and 've had worse to forgive than TWI anyday, btw.
The best way to un-invite TWI into your life is to really say bye-bye...
I still like these people here and care very much about what happens to them and about them, and I love reading their humor and see how people are putting it together or having some relationships (hopefully, meanwhile they are pulling it up a notch)
...but TWI
...give that space in my emotional make-up anymore ~ no way, jose
...it ain't worth polluting myself with negativity.
That's all human, social, cultural, humanities, day one errors, people aren't always what they seem crapolla anyway.
Everyone is at a different place.
Thanks,
I liked hearing your take on health and well-being, growing-up, acceptance, overcoming, and willing all goodness into your life...that equals forgiveness (what you have suggested) to me.
Forgiveness has been an issue or life lesson I'm learning the most from anyway.
For me ~ it is a win-win.
Ginger
(ps ~ if errors are here, fill in the right stuff, ok)
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Kit Sober
Bringing this to the top for some additional reading regarding forgiveness. Also some of these precious posters have passed away, and I was reminded again of how short is our life.
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Kit Sober
Watchman Nee devotional for today had a note about forgiveness, and it impacted me that because I know my whole life, to the essence of me is only because of the Lord Jesus, forgiving others is no problem. I truly think that "forgive them father for they know not what they do" applies to everyone. Many people are spiritually deaf. My physical ears have quit working. I just don't hear a thing anymore. And I think people who can't hear the Lord are like that spiritually. They just don't get what He is saying at all. And therefore their words are not relatable to what the Lord is saying in the world because they don't hear. They really don't know what they are doing at all. I have touched the hem of His garment and know His forgiveness which put a softness inside me.
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