Are you saying "let's forgive and forget the past and stop talking about it", or are you saying "let it go and get yourself healed"?
First of all, nobody has ASKED for forgiveness.
Second, a lot of us HAVE forgiven, or at least moved on, but the evils of TWI need to keep being publicized. There are newbies here all the time, and people wondering if they should leave, or go back. The evils need to be exposed so that nobody else gets hoodwinked by that horrible organization.
Damn I wish I could re-live exactly what was in my head and heart when I left in 87. Guess I have just stuffed too much of the detail away to recall it with clarity.
But I do know I was NOT happy AT ALL!!!:(--> :(-->
It was like being totally betrayed!!! Hmmm, that is exactly what it was!
it's never the only choice, and I never said forget.
who is happy all the time?
Steve
does someone have to ask for your forgivness before you forgive or do you forgive out of the goodness of your heart?
exca
maybe I said it wrong, us, we, I, it's just something that was on my heart so I posted it.
don't get me wrong, I know I/we went through hell with some of the things that happened to me/us in TWI. I wrote this after I read a ton of posts and other sites about TWI and it seems that people are bent on keeping TWI alive through hate. of course they were wrong for what they (TWI) did, I just don't want people to let it dominate their lives and feel they can't move on.
I love this site, it is very healing, and yes it's a need for people to hear the things that have happened. at the same time, if people aren't going to leave after reading everything avalible online now, repeating it over and over again isn't going to help. maybe there should be more posts about what happens after you leave.
maybe I'm wrong, maybe not, but I feel it was something "I" needed to say.
I love you all and didn't mean any harm to anyone and hope no one took it that way. I repect you all and don't want to deny you your feelings.
A few thoughts I have on the subject...one being that biblically ... seems to me God always required REPENTANCE and ASKING before he granted any forgiveness...we should follow HIS example no?
Another thought...I never saw Jesus Christ cutting ANY slack to, or asking us to forgive the actions of the religious leaders of his day who hurt and used people in God`s name....those who hid behind the scriptures authority to commit their crimes... matter of fact it seems like they ....ed him off... he even thought it necessary to warn folks to beware of them... called em some awfull names...lol
I guess if the anger by some here at gspot makes you uncomfortable...lol ...maybe sit back and get a mind pic of us tearing through the temple of twi...flinging over money changers tables...bellowing at the whited sepulchers ....warning others not to heed the pretty shiney outside ...but instead pointing out the putrid corruption that abides within :-)
Seems to me it would be kind of selfish if after extracing ourselves from the evil snare with enormous toll on our lives....that it behooves us to shine a light on the pitfall for others so that they can avoid entrapment. I don`t think we do anybody ANY favors by just *moving on* in the guise of forgiveness...sorry, I think we owe it to others to make them aware.... as grizzly and unpleasant as those details may appear at times.
Forgiving, in my opinion is a multi-level type o' thing.
There's the forgiveness where you decide that you are not going carry around hate anymore, because it's harmful to you, where you decide that you are not going to let some a$$hole who hurt you continue to hurt you through your own memories.
Then there's the type of forgiveness where you decide unilaterally that the person who wronged you gets a pass. Kind of like when Jesus said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". They didn't ask for forgiveness. Like "forgiving" a debt. The person who wronged you is absolved from the consequenses of his actions.
Those two don't necessarily involve any repentance on the part of the one who wronged you.
How about when a person comes to you, repents of their offense, and makes restitution? Or expresses sorry, but restitution isn't possible? Another type of forgiveness involves accepting the "sorry", apology, restitution, whatever, and accpting that person back into full fellowship with you.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
quote:How about when a person comes to you, repents of their offense, and makes restitution? Or expresses sorry, but restitution isn't possible? Another type of forgiveness involves accepting the "sorry", apology, restitution, whatever, and accpting that person back into full fellowship with you.
And how about the person who says, "I'm sorry" and wants your personal forgiveness, but is not sorry enough to make any atempt at restitution if there is any personal sacrifice involved?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
There are some that are probably still in twi that know what they are doing. I don't think I can forgive them. A lot of folks were just a duped as we were. Those I can forgive.
Forgiving is on an individual basis. If my best friend were to leave & want to see me, I wouldn't even have to forgive her. I would tell her that I understand.
Those that run that place...some of them don't deserve forgiveness. They know what they are doing & they are taking it for all it's worth.
But, that doesn't mean that I dwell on it. They are beyond my control & therefore beyond my concern.
[This message was edited by LuckyGirl on December 14, 2003 at 19:50.]
The reason principal reason we should forgive isn't for the benefit of those who have hurt us but for our own. The only way to truly move on is to forgive. As long as we hold on to the hurt we will never completely be free of it. If we can't move on we can't have what is next for us. Life is just too short to live looking backward.
Forgiving people does not necessarily excuse their actions. In the case of of TWI there is clearly no excuse for the violated personal boundaries, deceit and manipulation that have been well documented here. These stories of abuse need to continue to be told here so the truth of what TWI is may be brought out publicly in the light of day. However, in our personalspace we forgive so we can live and heal.
It is tough to forgive and forget. Because Christ died for me unconditionally, my sins were forgiven. I can learn to forgive and I can't go back on it once I do. Forgetting is harder. Then again, keeping one eye open against someone if they strike again may be a good idea. This is a tough issue and I need more Bible.
PJ, when I first got here I wanted to ask the same question...I'm not sure what it means to not forgive(pass judgment?..carry a grudge?..exact revenge?..mark and avoid?..profess their evils?..)Biblically,it seems like forgiveness is something you could only evince upon an individual,or individuals,and not an organization...My question would be if somebody chooses not to forgive "The Way",who exactly are they not forgiving?...Everybody that's still in?...The founder?...The trustees?...Everybody that's ever yelled at them?
There seems to be quite an array of people's actual involvement with the Way here,just likes there seems to be an array of violations committed against people here by the Way,or persons in the Way...Some people's experiences are much more painful than others...I continually try to draw a distinction between being justifiably po'ed at the Way or at myself for being a one-time follower...
Jesus also said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do...there are a few people in Twi that knew what they were doing but most did not. Anyone in twi that hurt me I figure it was done out of stupidity as most people wanted to do the right thing even if what was right got all screwed up.
I don?t hold a grudge, I don?t know if I have forgiven or if my forgiveness is necessary- I just don't care that much anymore. I think that if someone has been out of twi for years and years and are still as angry and hurt as they were way back when- then maybe it would be beneficial to pray for those who have hurt you. I would not tell anyone how he or she should heal- but it is not good to carry a chip on one's shoulder for so long a time. For if the entity that hurt you is no longer in your life it makes no difference to that entity how you feel about it. I am sure that those people that kicked me out, reprimanded me for no reason, tried to mess my head up with waybrained stuff, and people like ole craiggers don't give a hoot how I feel- those that tried to mess me up had lots of problems too if they thought they were doing the right thing.
What about those that were abusive and sadistic, you ask? Can you imagine how screwed up you would have to be to be that way? Joyce Meyers was sexually abused by her dad for years and it totally damaged her- and as an adult, she forgave and her kindness got him to repent and get born again. That is a ideal worth striving for IMHO.
I'd like to take this time to thank Papa John for his pizza. It's the best.
Forgivness? What's that?
Saying it was OK that people abused you? or
Understanding why/ the reasons why they did those things and feeling pity or compassion?
Is forgiving forgeting?
Is it not caring anymore?
I for one, don't think it is manditory to forgive in order to move on. Forgeting isn't either. Not focusing on the pain and letting it go is. Understanding why things happened is helpful, no doubt.
I will forgive the Lady for being grumpy (it is usually the other way around), I understand, and she is probably sorry anyway.
Forgive someone for mental, verbal, physical, sexual abuse? Not me. I understand why they did it, to a point. I don't care about them anymore. I am happy where I am and wouldn't be here without all those experiences. I don't think about them to much anymore.
I've moved on rather well, I'd like to think. There is still more to move or more to learn, and unlearn, depending on how you look at it.
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BackForty
Move on - My only choice was to do so.
I cannot even type the other word in my response. Sorry, can't do it.
Forget the best I can, yes.
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Steve!
PJ, what's your point in saying that?
Are you saying "let's forgive and forget the past and stop talking about it", or are you saying "let it go and get yourself healed"?
First of all, nobody has ASKED for forgiveness.
Second, a lot of us HAVE forgiven, or at least moved on, but the evils of TWI need to keep being publicized. There are newbies here all the time, and people wondering if they should leave, or go back. The evils need to be exposed so that nobody else gets hoodwinked by that horrible organization.
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BackForty
Damn I wish I could re-live exactly what was in my head and heart when I left in 87. Guess I have just stuffed too much of the detail away to recall it with clarity.
But I do know I was NOT happy AT ALL!!!
:(--> 
:(-->
It was like being totally betrayed!!! Hmmm, that is exactly what it was!
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excathedra
with all respect papa, this is an "I" question, not a "we" question
hugs
?
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wyteduv58
I think for me its easier to forgive than forget. Yes I can
forgive, but like Steve said no one has asked me to. And to
forget? NO I don't want to forget because if I do that, then
someday I might get into the same thing again, so remembering
is better for me. That was I won't be fooled twice.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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excathedra
i'm just doing the friggin best i can
also with regard to my above post, i should have said "i feel" not like this is the way it is
sowwy
?
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papajohn
thanks for the welcome Roy, I see it too.
BackForty
it's never the only choice, and I never said forget.
who is happy all the time?
Steve
does someone have to ask for your forgivness before you forgive or do you forgive out of the goodness of your heart?
exca
maybe I said it wrong, us, we, I, it's just something that was on my heart so I posted it.
don't get me wrong, I know I/we went through hell with some of the things that happened to me/us in TWI. I wrote this after I read a ton of posts and other sites about TWI and it seems that people are bent on keeping TWI alive through hate. of course they were wrong for what they (TWI) did, I just don't want people to let it dominate their lives and feel they can't move on.
I love this site, it is very healing, and yes it's a need for people to hear the things that have happened. at the same time, if people aren't going to leave after reading everything avalible online now, repeating it over and over again isn't going to help. maybe there should be more posts about what happens after you leave.
maybe I'm wrong, maybe not, but I feel it was something "I" needed to say.
I love you all and didn't mean any harm to anyone and hope no one took it that way. I repect you all and don't want to deny you your feelings.
with much love and many healing hugs,
papajohn.
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rascal
Hey PapaJ, welcome back to gspot!
A few thoughts I have on the subject...one being that biblically ... seems to me God always required REPENTANCE and ASKING before he granted any forgiveness...we should follow HIS example no?
Another thought...I never saw Jesus Christ cutting ANY slack to, or asking us to forgive the actions of the religious leaders of his day who hurt and used people in God`s name....those who hid behind the scriptures authority to commit their crimes... matter of fact it seems like they ....ed him off... he even thought it necessary to warn folks to beware of them... called em some awfull names...lol
I guess if the anger by some here at gspot makes you uncomfortable...lol ...maybe sit back and get a mind pic of us tearing through the temple of twi...flinging over money changers tables...bellowing at the whited sepulchers ....warning others not to heed the pretty shiney outside ...but instead pointing out the putrid corruption that abides within :-)
Seems to me it would be kind of selfish if after extracing ourselves from the evil snare with enormous toll on our lives....that it behooves us to shine a light on the pitfall for others so that they can avoid entrapment. I don`t think we do anybody ANY favors by just *moving on* in the guise of forgiveness...sorry, I think we owe it to others to make them aware.... as grizzly and unpleasant as those details may appear at times.
Cathy
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excathedra
papajohn, i understand what you're saying and i apologize for the "I" and "we" thing since it makes it sound like a semantics argument or whatever
i have no idea who has hate or who is just processing needful things and getting along in life. i don't leave it to me to decide
i've been through too much and for me personally it's a personal thing
healing hugs 2 u 2
:)-->
?
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Kit Sober
There is also a forgiveness thread over in the doctrinal forum: Forgiveness thread in Doctrinal forum
Forgiveness is also close to my heart and life as a subject of Utmost Importance.
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WordWolf
I'm not stewing in bitterness and hatred over this stuff.
I refuse to forget it, and I refuse to stay silent about it.
If I forget it, I might idealize it, and decide that only the good times
were true, and I exaggerated the bad times.
If I stay silent, that means others won't hear about it, and they need
to be kept informed.
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Oakspear
Forgiving, in my opinion is a multi-level type o' thing.
There's the forgiveness where you decide that you are not going carry around hate anymore, because it's harmful to you, where you decide that you are not going to let some a$$hole who hurt you continue to hurt you through your own memories.
Then there's the type of forgiveness where you decide unilaterally that the person who wronged you gets a pass. Kind of like when Jesus said "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". They didn't ask for forgiveness. Like "forgiving" a debt. The person who wronged you is absolved from the consequenses of his actions.
Those two don't necessarily involve any repentance on the part of the one who wronged you.
How about when a person comes to you, repents of their offense, and makes restitution? Or expresses sorry, but restitution isn't possible? Another type of forgiveness involves accepting the "sorry", apology, restitution, whatever, and accpting that person back into full fellowship with you.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Goey
And how about the person who says, "I'm sorry" and wants your personal forgiveness, but is not sorry enough to make any atempt at restitution if there is any personal sacrifice involved?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Kit Sober
Requirement to forgive is not for the wrong-doer's benefit primarily but for our own.
Forgiveness prevents the juices of anger, wrath, malice, bitterness from poisoning our own system.
Forgiveness is the context of basic retemory 2 Cor 2:11, "Lest satan should get advantage of us for we are not ignorant of his devices."
Forgiveness is how we keep the upper hand -- our heart in the hand of God.
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papajohn
it's wonderful to see the posts on this thread.
forgiving can be the first part of healing.
you are all great people in gods sight and to overcome what was done is a great triumph.
much love to you all,
papajohn
P.S.
I never said forget, and that doesn't go hand in hand with forgiving. never forget because when you do, you fall back into that trap.
Mark 11
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
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LuckyGirl
I can forgive anyone that asks.
There are some that are probably still in twi that know what they are doing. I don't think I can forgive them. A lot of folks were just a duped as we were. Those I can forgive.
Forgiving is on an individual basis. If my best friend were to leave & want to see me, I wouldn't even have to forgive her. I would tell her that I understand.
Those that run that place...some of them don't deserve forgiveness. They know what they are doing & they are taking it for all it's worth.
But, that doesn't mean that I dwell on it. They are beyond my control & therefore beyond my concern.
[This message was edited by LuckyGirl on December 14, 2003 at 19:50.]
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metastic&ocular
i have moved on and prospered.
forgive? never.
a thing of beauty
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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oenophile
The reason principal reason we should forgive isn't for the benefit of those who have hurt us but for our own. The only way to truly move on is to forgive. As long as we hold on to the hurt we will never completely be free of it. If we can't move on we can't have what is next for us. Life is just too short to live looking backward.
Forgiving people does not necessarily excuse their actions. In the case of of TWI there is clearly no excuse for the violated personal boundaries, deceit and manipulation that have been well documented here. These stories of abuse need to continue to be told here so the truth of what TWI is may be brought out publicly in the light of day. However, in our personalspace we forgive so we can live and heal.
Personally approves the wine list.
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MarkedAndAvoided
It is tough to forgive and forget. Because Christ died for me unconditionally, my sins were forgiven. I can learn to forgive and I can't go back on it once I do. Forgetting is harder. Then again, keeping one eye open against someone if they strike again may be a good idea. This is a tough issue and I need more Bible.
Marked and Avoided
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papajohn
I couldn't have said it better oenophile!!!!!
God bless us everyone
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simonzelotes
PJ, when I first got here I wanted to ask the same question...I'm not sure what it means to not forgive(pass judgment?..carry a grudge?..exact revenge?..mark and avoid?..profess their evils?..)Biblically,it seems like forgiveness is something you could only evince upon an individual,or individuals,and not an organization...My question would be if somebody chooses not to forgive "The Way",who exactly are they not forgiving?...Everybody that's still in?...The founder?...The trustees?...Everybody that's ever yelled at them?
There seems to be quite an array of people's actual involvement with the Way here,just likes there seems to be an array of violations committed against people here by the Way,or persons in the Way...Some people's experiences are much more painful than others...I continually try to draw a distinction between being justifiably po'ed at the Way or at myself for being a one-time follower...
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excathedra
you're very wise, simonzee
?
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Hopefull
Jesus also said, Father forgive them for they know not what they do...there are a few people in Twi that knew what they were doing but most did not. Anyone in twi that hurt me I figure it was done out of stupidity as most people wanted to do the right thing even if what was right got all screwed up.
I don?t hold a grudge, I don?t know if I have forgiven or if my forgiveness is necessary- I just don't care that much anymore. I think that if someone has been out of twi for years and years and are still as angry and hurt as they were way back when- then maybe it would be beneficial to pray for those who have hurt you. I would not tell anyone how he or she should heal- but it is not good to carry a chip on one's shoulder for so long a time. For if the entity that hurt you is no longer in your life it makes no difference to that entity how you feel about it. I am sure that those people that kicked me out, reprimanded me for no reason, tried to mess my head up with waybrained stuff, and people like ole craiggers don't give a hoot how I feel- those that tried to mess me up had lots of problems too if they thought they were doing the right thing.
What about those that were abusive and sadistic, you ask? Can you imagine how screwed up you would have to be to be that way? Joyce Meyers was sexually abused by her dad for years and it totally damaged her- and as an adult, she forgave and her kindness got him to repent and get born again. That is a ideal worth striving for IMHO.
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lindyhopper
I'd like to take this time to thank Papa John for his pizza. It's the best.
Forgivness? What's that?
Saying it was OK that people abused you? or
Understanding why/ the reasons why they did those things and feeling pity or compassion?
Is forgiving forgeting?
Is it not caring anymore?
I for one, don't think it is manditory to forgive in order to move on. Forgeting isn't either. Not focusing on the pain and letting it go is. Understanding why things happened is helpful, no doubt.
I will forgive the Lady for being grumpy (it is usually the other way around), I understand, and she is probably sorry anyway.
Forgive someone for mental, verbal, physical, sexual abuse? Not me. I understand why they did it, to a point. I don't care about them anymore. I am happy where I am and wouldn't be here without all those experiences. I don't think about them to much anymore.
I've moved on rather well, I'd like to think. There is still more to move or more to learn, and unlearn, depending on how you look at it.
I guess all this means I agree with Hopefull.
It don't mean a thing, all you gotta do is swing.
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