I would imagine that since there exist many of us who have been government trained to kill, and who have in fact killed for our government; it would not be that far of a stretch that if a vet or a policeman were convinced that the need to kill such a person were 'real'.
Come to think of it, I have a story that I dont think I have told within Greasespot Cafe. A friend who worked for me during my last year on active duty, Mark, was a Navy reservist who had worked as a Sherif's Deputy in Oklahoma City. Immediately after the partial-bombing in Oklahoma City, he had spent 72 hours straight with his dog dragging bodies from the rubble, and his dog eventually died from everything he had inhaled during the digging. After Mark retired from Law Enforcement, he went active back into the Navy, to finish his Navy retirement. When he was first assigned to work for me, I could not arm him because the Navy shrinks were not ready to let him be armed. During his career as a deputy he had killed 7, each had been investigated and cleared as 'good' shoots. When he walked into a situation with a perp holding a weapon, he would first thank the perp for getting him another vacation, and he would tell the perp what he was going to be doing for the next two weeks during his un-expected vacation. Then he would explain that by killing the perp, he would automatically get a two week phsychiatric-leave, and since the perp was brandishing a weapon and threatening people, the shoot's investigation would be fast and would clear him. Sometimes this explaination would so scare a perp that they would drop their weapon, sometimes they would doubt Mark's explanation and Mark would get another two weeks of paid medical leave. Mark told me about his behavior, when he started working for me, and later when I was allowed to arm him, I observed the behavior. Unfortunately in the Navy, we dont give two weeks of medical leave so easily.
I remember LCM in a teaching about you guessed it homos, and he said he would gladly kill all of them if he could. I was appalled at that statement, and have always wondered why he picked on them with such vehemance, was he a one time homo or thought he was or maybe molested by a pedophile or something....any thoughts anyone?
I thought I saw LCM staring at a lot of guys once, then yelling at them. Since he gets his rocks off that way, or did, maybe he was thinking of them all naked. I don't know.
I got in TWI in early 78, and in late 78 there was the Jonestown Massacre. I thought - how could anyone be that way??
TWI did encourage one not to hang out with unbeliever family and friends, and to a certain extent, I did not (fully). I believed in being "friendly" to unbies (also witnessing, but witnessing then shunning didn't seem right to me) For sure, some unbies annoyed me and I would want to shut them out, some I thought were "evil", but the urge to kill?? NEVER!!
So, I never fully shut out unbies or fully cleaved to "believers". Never joined WC, but did go WOW.
Here and there TCs criticized my son and when he was 12 he took PFAL, but was bored and showed it. My TC criticized him and acted cold, and I thought - that's IT!! No more TWI.
Bowtwi and Watered Garden - big hugs to you!! I felt hurt at the treatment I got (and criticism of my son) but it wasn't nearly as severe as the treatment you got. Later I would think of the bad treatment I got and my son, and think HMMF but I don't have the urge to kill, just not the type. If anyone asked...I think I would report them to the police rather than follow, or else just be scared and under the covers at home.
There was quite a bit of talk similar to this during the time of the bicentennial in 1976.
(This was pre-Jonestown.)
I don't remember it ever being directly stated. There was, however, quite a bit of thinly veiled innuendo and rhetoric. ("How much would you be willing to sacrifice for the movement The Word"?/ "Would you be willing to go to prison like Paul did?") There was talk about the group in OT times (though not actually in the OT) who took their own lives rather than submit to being killed by a group that was attacking their stronghold.(I can't remember the reference for that one off-hand.) Of course, the implication was that if you didn't have this level of commitment, you were a spiritual weakling. Can't be one of God's elite if you are a spiritual weakling now can you? Lot's of talk about what would happen if it came down to the Gvt. vs. TWI. Once in Fellow Laborers we had an emergency "mission" to destroy the metal mimeograph plates for the state newsletter mailing list "so a list of our names could never fall into the wrong hands". Quite a few of us had guns we kept at hand for target practice. Plus, we dabbled in survival mentality. We had a large garden where we grew the vegetable supply for the 50 of us. We had a mandatory food co-op, always ate as a group, and even built a root cellar for our root crops "just in case". I don't know if we would have ever been asked to kill anyone or ourselves but, the survivalist mentality was alive and well and being expounded to us by virtue of the lifestyle we lived.
We were living in la-la land and didn't even know it. Not only did we not know it, we laughingly denied it if the subject was raised by outsiders. We were nuts. Who knows what we might have done? Just about the time I find myself being amused reflecting on it, I realize there was really nothing amusing about it.
And the bigger question for me is whether VP&Co.(upper level leadership) might have gone the route of Jone&Co. eventually.
I remember leadership asking us in a meeting one time that if the MOG told us to do something that was "in the world's eyes a wrong thing" would we do it. A few of us (me included, put up our hands and said no). Well that was the wrong answer and got lambasted for about 10 minutes about why we were wrong.
However most of us here who were in any type of leadership position knew that Those were the kind of people LOY had around him.
People who would do anything for the cause. Yes men, hit men, whatever you want to call them. They were given the lofty positions.
Those who didn't respond to LOY's call to "confrontation" in other words ba a @@@hole or to do whatever he told you to do, were simply shelved, hung out to dry.
don't get me wrong here, I am pro choice but just how many abortions were done because having a
child would make us less committed to moving the word over the world(for TWI)and for NO other reason
than that?
WARNING!
This is off-track from the thread topic but in response to your question.
I know of one woman who was experiencing difficulties with a pregnancy and given doctor's orders to limit physical activity. She was required by leadership mandate, however, to continue to do the morning run like everyone else and "believe" for a positive outcome. She lost the child. In addition, it was my understanding that she had incurred permanent damage, making it impossible to conceive again. There was no valid reason she should have been required to act in opposition to medical advise. It's yet another example of how the "law of believing" had destructive effects on those who tried to prove it.
This is off-track from the thread topic but in response to your question.
I know of one woman who was experiencing difficulties with a pregnancy and given doctor's orders to limit physical activity. She was required by leadership mandate, however, to continue to do the morning run like everyone else and "believe" for a positive outcome. She lost the child. In addition, it was my understanding that she had incurred permanent damage, making it impossible to conceive again. There was no valid reason she should have been required to act in opposition to medical advise. It's yet another example of how the "law of believing" had destructive effects on those who tried to prove it.
I heard about that, too. so sad! the way twi treats people is shameful, and evil.
<snip>
What is the possibility TWI will deny ever condoning your actions?
EVEN, what is the possibility will just M&A and cut ties with you in order to save their own arses?
Kill for TWI? Yeah...Right. They are not worth going to jail for.
it was understood that if we needed to kill for twi, we would take the fall individually to protect the ministry.
I do know vpw body guards would have taken a bullit for him, and would have defended him at any cost...I remember from the POOP papers that there was mention of twi trying to murder R*cardo C*b*llero...also, didn't someone here say that a couple of twi goons showed up at his door once because of what he said to one of the elitist leaders? Â
There were murder threats against DontWorryBeHappy, sent in the mail, corroborated by a poster here who had conversation with twi insiders, and what about the suicides caused by vpw and & co who practiced the rape and seduction of twi women/girls? Â They didn't pull the trigger, but they had blood on their hands. Â
Capable of murder, capable of a Jonestown?...might not be such a far stretch. Â What about the Malpack period, what would have happened if vpw got his wish and sent the in residence Corps into the "hills" to escape the perceived collapse of our govt? Â What would have happened to them? Â Makes you go, hmmm?
You know I started this thread a number of years ago (whoa) and I thought that there was no way anyone I knew or people around me in twi would ever kill for twi.
One of the first few responses brought up Waco. Now after reading through this again I think about that and wonder.
What do you think would have happened had we been at the Rock, all fired up, and the US government and National Guard showed up surrounding all outlets. I tend to think now that things would have gotten ugly. I wouldn't have done anything but I think in a situation like that perhaps there would be quite a few people who would.
It seems to me that for a long time TWI has been willing to destroy lives. It doesn't seem like killing someone would be a question of degree anymore, just a question of methodology.
On the other hand, I've been public with this stuff for a while now and it seems to me that in my case anyway that the WAYGB is a paper tiger at worst. Probably can't muster up much of anything besides backstabbing cowardly tactics. LOSERS...
Every organization has the nut jobs. I was in TWI when Waco happened, was actually studying with my Mom quite a bit since she was taking the Advanced class that summer. We saw the news with the reaction "who would ever follow a psycho like that!" Kind of Ironic isn't it, I'm not alone am I ;)
After Waco went down my former splinter group leader said about Koresh and his church," Something good was happening there." I think that Koresh's twisted and sick views about how to relate to other men's wives and children actually impressed him. But since my former splinter leader liked it when someone kissed up to him by calling him a true son of Wierwille it does not surprise me that he said that at all.
Sometimes I wonder about folks that hold Wierwille so dear that they would actually try to kill someone and think that they were doing a good thing. In my mind it is not a big stretch from TWI's circle the wagons attitude IN SPITE OF THE TRUTH ABOUT WIERWILLE to someone going postal. But IMO such things that are simply fears shouldn't stop the truth. Heck, I bet Obama has had plenty of threats, and he's a politician.
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Galen
I was never asked to.
I would imagine that since there exist many of us who have been government trained to kill, and who have in fact killed for our government; it would not be that far of a stretch that if a vet or a policeman were convinced that the need to kill such a person were 'real'.
Come to think of it, I have a story that I dont think I have told within Greasespot Cafe. A friend who worked for me during my last year on active duty, Mark, was a Navy reservist who had worked as a Sherif's Deputy in Oklahoma City. Immediately after the partial-bombing in Oklahoma City, he had spent 72 hours straight with his dog dragging bodies from the rubble, and his dog eventually died from everything he had inhaled during the digging. After Mark retired from Law Enforcement, he went active back into the Navy, to finish his Navy retirement. When he was first assigned to work for me, I could not arm him because the Navy shrinks were not ready to let him be armed. During his career as a deputy he had killed 7, each had been investigated and cleared as 'good' shoots. When he walked into a situation with a perp holding a weapon, he would first thank the perp for getting him another vacation, and he would tell the perp what he was going to be doing for the next two weeks during his un-expected vacation. Then he would explain that by killing the perp, he would automatically get a two week phsychiatric-leave, and since the perp was brandishing a weapon and threatening people, the shoot's investigation would be fast and would clear him. Sometimes this explaination would so scare a perp that they would drop their weapon, sometimes they would doubt Mark's explanation and Mark would get another two weeks of paid medical leave. Mark told me about his behavior, when he started working for me, and later when I was allowed to arm him, I observed the behavior. Unfortunately in the Navy, we dont give two weeks of medical leave so easily.
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wyteduv58
I remember LCM in a teaching about you guessed it homos, and he said he would gladly kill all of them if he could. I was appalled at that statement, and have always wondered why he picked on them with such vehemance, was he a one time homo or thought he was or maybe molested by a pedophile or something....any thoughts anyone?
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... too dumb to post pics http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?s=9716057...a&ul=4846073735
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Catcup
Methinks LCM doth protest too much...
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vickles
dovey, It really makes you wonder, doesn't it? Maybe he is yet in the closet?...
;)-->
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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MarkedAndAvoided
I thought I saw LCM staring at a lot of guys once, then yelling at them. Since he gets his rocks off that way, or did, maybe he was thinking of them all naked. I don't know.
Marked and Avoided
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CircleGame
Kill for TWI?? Never!!
I got in TWI in early 78, and in late 78 there was the Jonestown Massacre. I thought - how could anyone be that way??
TWI did encourage one not to hang out with unbeliever family and friends, and to a certain extent, I did not (fully). I believed in being "friendly" to unbies (also witnessing, but witnessing then shunning didn't seem right to me) For sure, some unbies annoyed me and I would want to shut them out, some I thought were "evil", but the urge to kill?? NEVER!!
So, I never fully shut out unbies or fully cleaved to "believers". Never joined WC, but did go WOW.
Here and there TCs criticized my son and when he was 12 he took PFAL, but was bored and showed it. My TC criticized him and acted cold, and I thought - that's IT!! No more TWI.
Bowtwi and Watered Garden - big hugs to you!! I felt hurt at the treatment I got (and criticism of my son) but it wasn't nearly as severe as the treatment you got. Later I would think of the bad treatment I got and my son, and think HMMF but I don't have the urge to kill, just not the type. If anyone asked...I think I would report them to the police rather than follow, or else just be scared and under the covers at home.
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cheranne
hmmm....other people NO! myself yes.(back then)
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waysider
There was quite a bit of talk similar to this during the time of the bicentennial in 1976.
(This was pre-Jonestown.)
I don't remember it ever being directly stated. There was, however, quite a bit of thinly veiled innuendo and rhetoric. ("How much would you be willing to sacrifice for the movement The Word"?/ "Would you be willing to go to prison like Paul did?") There was talk about the group in OT times (though not actually in the OT) who took their own lives rather than submit to being killed by a group that was attacking their stronghold.(I can't remember the reference for that one off-hand.) Of course, the implication was that if you didn't have this level of commitment, you were a spiritual weakling. Can't be one of God's elite if you are a spiritual weakling now can you? Lot's of talk about what would happen if it came down to the Gvt. vs. TWI. Once in Fellow Laborers we had an emergency "mission" to destroy the metal mimeograph plates for the state newsletter mailing list "so a list of our names could never fall into the wrong hands". Quite a few of us had guns we kept at hand for target practice. Plus, we dabbled in survival mentality. We had a large garden where we grew the vegetable supply for the 50 of us. We had a mandatory food co-op, always ate as a group, and even built a root cellar for our root crops "just in case". I don't know if we would have ever been asked to kill anyone or ourselves but, the survivalist mentality was alive and well and being expounded to us by virtue of the lifestyle we lived.
We were living in la-la land and didn't even know it. Not only did we not know it, we laughingly denied it if the subject was raised by outsiders. We were nuts. Who knows what we might have done? Just about the time I find myself being amused reflecting on it, I realize there was really nothing amusing about it.
And the bigger question for me is whether VP&Co.(upper level leadership) might have gone the route of Jone&Co. eventually.
Edited: (some day I'll lern how to spell.)
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polar bear
No I would not have done that.
I remember leadership asking us in a meeting one time that if the MOG told us to do something that was "in the world's eyes a wrong thing" would we do it. A few of us (me included, put up our hands and said no). Well that was the wrong answer and got lambasted for about 10 minutes about why we were wrong.
However most of us here who were in any type of leadership position knew that Those were the kind of people LOY had around him.
People who would do anything for the cause. Yes men, hit men, whatever you want to call them. They were given the lofty positions.
Those who didn't respond to LOY's call to "confrontation" in other words ba a @@@hole or to do whatever he told you to do, were simply shelved, hung out to dry.
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FreeFromCults
Kill for TWI?
No f***ing way. I am glad I did not stay there long (3 years is more than enough) enough to be around people who'll go to that extreme.
I bet that ex-CIA guy must feel like a real fool now that Martinfail is defrocked.
Now, for those who are willing to kill for TWI, let me ask you a few questions:
When you get arrrested, will TWI help you bail out of jail?
Will TWI help with your court costs and help you stay out of prison?
or
What is the possibility TWI will deny ever condoning your actions?
EVEN, what is the possibility will just M&A and cut ties with you in order to save their own arses?
Kill for TWI? Yeah...Right. They are not worth going to jail for.
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Ham
If someone got caught, they'd probably disavow any knowledge of it..
scary though isn't it.. all loy boy would have had to say "he's (or she's) an obnoxious god hating faggot.. we oughta do *something*.."
and we have at least one individual that would silently go off into the night, and do whatever they do without a blink of conscience..
might be "inuendo", but who's to say it didn't happen as it is.. the only way you'd know was if the person actually got caught..
it's like.. they've broken every other commandment known to God and man.. why stop short of this?
at the least to me, it wouldn't take too much of a stretch of my imagination.. it wouldn't exactly suprise me.
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cheranne
don't get me wrong here, I am pro choice but just how many abortions were done because having a
child would make us less committed to moving the word over the world(for TWI)and for NO other reason
than that?
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waysider
WARNING!
This is off-track from the thread topic but in response to your question.
I know of one woman who was experiencing difficulties with a pregnancy and given doctor's orders to limit physical activity. She was required by leadership mandate, however, to continue to do the morning run like everyone else and "believe" for a positive outcome. She lost the child. In addition, it was my understanding that she had incurred permanent damage, making it impossible to conceive again. There was no valid reason she should have been required to act in opposition to medical advise. It's yet another example of how the "law of believing" had destructive effects on those who tried to prove it.
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cheranne
I don't think it is off topic at all pro choice or not.
And as for that poor woman with a note from the doctor to limit activity,that was so fcking wrong to make
her continue,the military doesn't even treat people like that!
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potato
I heard about that, too. so sad! the way twi treats people is shameful, and evil.
it was understood that if we needed to kill for twi, we would take the fall individually to protect the ministry.
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Twinky
Not to mention how many people they have wounded, spiritually and emotionally.
But there are enough threads about that.
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now I see
I do know vpw body guards would have taken a bullit for him, and would have defended him at any cost...I remember from the POOP papers that there was mention of twi trying to murder R*cardo C*b*llero...also, didn't someone here say that a couple of twi goons showed up at his door once because of what he said to one of the elitist leaders? Â
There were murder threats against DontWorryBeHappy, sent in the mail, corroborated by a poster here who had conversation with twi insiders, and what about the suicides caused by vpw and & co who practiced the rape and seduction of twi women/girls? Â They didn't pull the trigger, but they had blood on their hands. Â
Capable of murder, capable of a Jonestown?...might not be such a far stretch. Â What about the Malpack period, what would have happened if vpw got his wish and sent the in residence Corps into the "hills" to escape the perceived collapse of our govt? Â What would have happened to them? Â Makes you go, hmmm?
Â
Edited by now I seeLink to comment
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lindyhopper
You know I started this thread a number of years ago (whoa) and I thought that there was no way anyone I knew or people around me in twi would ever kill for twi.
One of the first few responses brought up Waco. Now after reading through this again I think about that and wonder.
What do you think would have happened had we been at the Rock, all fired up, and the US government and National Guard showed up surrounding all outlets. I tend to think now that things would have gotten ugly. I wouldn't have done anything but I think in a situation like that perhaps there would be quite a few people who would.
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cheranne
Whoa that is scary to think! How many people do you think were at ROA in 79?
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JeffSjo
It seems to me that for a long time TWI has been willing to destroy lives. It doesn't seem like killing someone would be a question of degree anymore, just a question of methodology.
On the other hand, I've been public with this stuff for a while now and it seems to me that in my case anyway that the WAYGB is a paper tiger at worst. Probably can't muster up much of anything besides backstabbing cowardly tactics. LOSERS...
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so it was
Every organization has the nut jobs. I was in TWI when Waco happened, was actually studying with my Mom quite a bit since she was taking the Advanced class that summer. We saw the news with the reaction "who would ever follow a psycho like that!" Kind of Ironic isn't it, I'm not alone am I ;)
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JeffSjo
After Waco went down my former splinter group leader said about Koresh and his church," Something good was happening there." I think that Koresh's twisted and sick views about how to relate to other men's wives and children actually impressed him. But since my former splinter leader liked it when someone kissed up to him by calling him a true son of Wierwille it does not surprise me that he said that at all.
Sometimes I wonder about folks that hold Wierwille so dear that they would actually try to kill someone and think that they were doing a good thing. In my mind it is not a big stretch from TWI's circle the wagons attitude IN SPITE OF THE TRUTH ABOUT WIERWILLE to someone going postal. But IMO such things that are simply fears shouldn't stop the truth. Heck, I bet Obama has had plenty of threats, and he's a politician.
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