Yup I unnerstand that completely, glad you guys are out sane and reasonably happy, life is an adventure and should be lived with great gusto, twi did their best to squash that gusto but thankfully they failed for the most part. :)-->
The thought of killing for twi did pop in my mind a time or two, not the gee lets go kill fer our cult leader but more like ya know I wonder if these loonies are going to drive this thing to that point or not and then what will I do?
I never bought into the stockpile of weapons theory that has circulated through these forums so much but I did believe at the time (and still do) that if you added up all the privately owned weapons on hq property and perhaps a *private collection* or two you'd essentially end up with the same thing. I did believe that there were at least a few hardcore committed (or at least needed to be) followers who could VERY easily go over the edge for their mog.
This clearly came to mind at a rock (94 mebbe?)when the black helicopters flew overhead (what was up with all that anyways???). I pondered the significance of this and what might happen if someone did something really stupid and how I would get my family to safety. This was the same timeframe when the McSpit began his vehement attacks on gays, unruly children wives and other assorted creatures and I knew then that my time with twi was about over.
We made it out and life is good, there is much to be explored out there and we get a second chance to find truth happiness and peace and this is good.
I purposely never purchased a gun just so I would not be in a position to use one foolishly. Most of the other men in our area were gun owners, and there was subtle pressure to purchase one, especially during the Y2K "preparations". I was treated as if I was not man enough to protect my family by not owning a gun.
Funny incident: one rabid gun owner invited me and another twig coordinator to go shooting one night. After enduring a lecture from them both on the joys of gun ownership yada, yada, yada...I loaded my borrowed pistol and hit all but one shot in the bullseye. That was the first and last time that I'd fired a gun.
It was real quiet on the drive home.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
yup. yup. kool-aide drinker extroidinaire. I would've done anything they told us to do that was "according to God's holy word". They so twist scriptures and I was so way-brained that I would have done it and thought I was going to be getting oh so many rewards at the bema for it.
Sad thing is so many people still in, especially the wc, would probably still consider the action were the requests to come from the bod.
I recall being chastised by my region coordinator for not having a gun. I did go to an outdoor firing range and shooting his 44 or 45 or whatever it was. We fired into old mattresses, the hole in the front side of the mattress was pretty small while the back side was huge. I thought to myself, what would this do to a human? Even though I liked the guy, I would never kill on his command. If someone broke into my house and threatened my family, I would have no problem shooting that person. As far as killing for the way...no f-ing way!
The thing is the bod would not tell you to out and out kill someone. They would spin something to the effect that we would have to defend ourselves sort of thing.
I mean like I said before being in wc you could be led to believe that things were happening and in reality they weren't. You could be doing things thinking that you were in war within america.
It sounds wild I know but if you believe that your life or your family's life is in danger you would do whatever it takes to keep yourself alive and your family.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
I agree, vickles, the BOD would spin it in some way. I think the best thing that prevents that sort of thing is that most TWI-ers live in the world, with secular jobs and contacts. I'd be more concerned about Staff and Corps. Luckily now, their numbers are fewer than at TWI"s prime.
NEVER!!! Kill for TWI just because they said so??? Not only no, but HELL NO!!!
Sorry, but the US Marine Corps got to me first. Part of Marine training is that you NEVER kill or do harm to anyone without just cause. We have rules that we must follow concerning "Use of Deadly Force" which essentially state that you never use force greater than that necessary to prevent your enemy from killing you, your fellow Marines, or anyone under your protection.
True, there is the unwritten rule that if your Commanding Officer makes a suggestion, you take it as though it's an order. However, there IS such a thing as an UNLAWFUL order, and if such is issued, it can be challenged via a process we refer to as "Request Mast" (other services have different names for it).
UNLAWFUL ORDERS can be disobeyed in any branch of the US military, even if an unlawful order is issued by the President/Commander-In-Chief himself. This is why I find the story related earlier about the "former Marine" who was packing his equipment to go stalk and kill someone a little hard to swallow. A real Marine would not do so, as such an "order" is unlawful (Of course, who knows what someone might do if they are out for revenge, or brainwashed).
As far as self defense, or family defense, I'd kill the perpetrator in a heartbeat if it became necessary - and I wouldn't even need a gun. I would otherwise disable the criminal and hold him/her for the police.
Lindy -- did you mean that figuratively, or literally?? No, I would never do the physical, but thinking back on my decade's tenure in TWI, I guess I did in the figurative sense.
Not me, but I knew a few folk that I think might would have, if told to by either VPW or LCM.
The WOW coordinator I had back in 79 once told me that if VPW told her to kill someone or to jump off of a bridge, that she would do it without question. I think she was trying to impress me with her level of "commitment".
Here is an interesting quote:
quote:You should be thankful you?re not in the Old Testament times, because there are some of us who would gladly execute you. I would rejoice at that privilege? -- Loy Craig Martindale - July 1994
Good things there are civil laws - eh ?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
I remember I heard some big ex-way dude gave some seminar a few years back (initials DS) said that if someone attacked him all he had to say was in the name of Jesus Christ drop dead and the guy would be dead.
Funny how brave these guys are when there in a nice warm, safe place with a room full of people.
GRRRL POWER!
Rottie, in my own experience, calling out the "Name of Jesus Christ" often provoked the person I was rebuking, and at one time I ended up in an altercation with someone immediately afterwards. I've also heard that it even works on mean dogs. BS!!!!!!. Since when does a dog understand the name of Christ????. And if he hates your smell, forget about calling on the lord, best make a run for it instead. (I'm sure your rottie will also be affected by that name, NOT! :D-->)
CKnapp I understand totally what your saying, and I agree. I seem to remember a part in ACTs (I think) where it didn't work too well either.
Besides, even if it works on devil spirits, it doesn't mean the dog, or person, is possessed. It could just be a disturbed soul after you.
And I have had a wayfer lady tell me that all she would have to do is say "In the Name of Jesus" if a dog was attacking her dog, because according to her "Every name must bow to that name."
Well, I found out she was twisting that scripture terribly. Gotta be careful using these verses without understanding what situation they're talking about in the bible. Some people have a bad habit of doing that. They're great at quoting scripture, but they are totally taking it out of context.
Thanks for posting that. (Don't mean to derail the thread)
...It's hard to be humble when you own a rottweiler...
Or worse.. "This is the story of a man, brow-beaten of all logic and sensibilities, that he should wield death with righteous indignation. Only to be understood by those, in the (TWI)lite Zone..."
I have no problem with calling on the name of the Lord in a dire situation. I remember a story about a woman who got attacked by her husband at divorce court (outside) He was after her with a gun and she yelled out "Lord, help me!" An off duty detective shot the guy dead.
I just think that when people think they can throw the name of JC like they're some bad as$, it's terribly offensive to people who have lost their lives in acts of violence or viciousness, like they weren't spiritual or faithful enough to have been saved by God.
Like if they were on those planes during 911 I supposed the terrorists would have fallen to their feet?
Your quote of LCM referring to "gladly" executing people as they did in Old Testament times ... oh boy ... that statement of his led to a nightmare for our family !! We were in Family Corps training at the time.
The Children's Activities Coordinator loudly repeated this teaching, as a way to admonish a group of small children for some (minor) misbehavior. He stood there - like LCM - and told these little kids that if they had been living in OT times, their parents would have killed them by throwing stones at them!
My husband and I witnessed this and were horrified at the fear it instilled in these children. We complained to him (the Children's Activities Coordinator) but were essentially laughed at. So we went to the Family Corps Coordinator, reported it to him, who promptly dropped us from Corps Training. That's what you get if you "speak up".
...well, that was the first time we got dropped. We went back two more times over the following four years, before we finally got the message that TWI and its Corps were not the place to be.
"Would you kill for TWI?" Hmmmmmmm. What if you are suddenly the enemy of TWI? Then do you become the target? -Pat
In A British Wayfarer's Story I made reference to how the British Press picked up the story about TWI. As we are not a gun toting culture here (even less so since the Dunblane Massacre) it seemed a stupid assertion to make at the time.
However some of the stuff I have read since makes one wonder if in the US at least there was a basis for the accusation. Certainly there are many groupings in the US which seem to think that guns and religion can go together comfortably and I don't think TWI went out of its way to claim this was different, given that guns were part of the corpse training at Camp Gunnison.
It would not have taken much for some extremeist idiot to feel justified in going for those who were perceived as enemies of TWI. Under LCM this paranoia only increased and when he started talking about executing people it's a miracle that someone didn't take his crap at face value.
I would not have killed anyone for TWI, but I had someone in my branch who will if he is only asked.
When we were coordinating the Cleveland area we had a veteran in our fellowship who had previously worked for the CIA. He was a trained killer, had done it many times and told me that if LCM asked him to off somebody, he would do it:
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herbiejuan
Wow...
Crammed into a tiny mold that didn't fit him
Yup I unnerstand that completely, glad you guys are out sane and reasonably happy, life is an adventure and should be lived with great gusto, twi did their best to squash that gusto but thankfully they failed for the most part.
:)-->
The thought of killing for twi did pop in my mind a time or two, not the gee lets go kill fer our cult leader but more like ya know I wonder if these loonies are going to drive this thing to that point or not and then what will I do?
I never bought into the stockpile of weapons theory that has circulated through these forums so much but I did believe at the time (and still do) that if you added up all the privately owned weapons on hq property and perhaps a *private collection* or two you'd essentially end up with the same thing. I did believe that there were at least a few hardcore committed (or at least needed to be) followers who could VERY easily go over the edge for their mog.
This clearly came to mind at a rock (94 mebbe?)when the black helicopters flew overhead (what was up with all that anyways???). I pondered the significance of this and what might happen if someone did something really stupid and how I would get my family to safety. This was the same timeframe when the McSpit began his vehement attacks on gays, unruly children wives and other assorted creatures and I knew then that my time with twi was about over.
We made it out and life is good, there is much to be explored out there and we get a second chance to find truth happiness and peace and this is good.
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Oakspear
I purposely never purchased a gun just so I would not be in a position to use one foolishly. Most of the other men in our area were gun owners, and there was subtle pressure to purchase one, especially during the Y2K "preparations". I was treated as if I was not man enough to protect my family by not owning a gun.
Funny incident: one rabid gun owner invited me and another twig coordinator to go shooting one night. After enduring a lecture from them both on the joys of gun ownership yada, yada, yada...I loaded my borrowed pistol and hit all but one shot in the bullseye. That was the first and last time that I'd fired a gun.
It was real quiet on the drive home.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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insurgent
yup. yup. kool-aide drinker extroidinaire. I would've done anything they told us to do that was "according to God's holy word". They so twist scriptures and I was so way-brained that I would have done it and thought I was going to be getting oh so many rewards at the bema for it.
Sad thing is so many people still in, especially the wc, would probably still consider the action were the requests to come from the bod.
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Doze
I recall being chastised by my region coordinator for not having a gun. I did go to an outdoor firing range and shooting his 44 or 45 or whatever it was. We fired into old mattresses, the hole in the front side of the mattress was pretty small while the back side was huge. I thought to myself, what would this do to a human? Even though I liked the guy, I would never kill on his command. If someone broke into my house and threatened my family, I would have no problem shooting that person. As far as killing for the way...no f-ing way!
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vickles
The thing is the bod would not tell you to out and out kill someone. They would spin something to the effect that we would have to defend ourselves sort of thing.
I mean like I said before being in wc you could be led to believe that things were happening and in reality they weren't. You could be doing things thinking that you were in war within america.
It sounds wild I know but if you believe that your life or your family's life is in danger you would do whatever it takes to keep yourself alive and your family.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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shazdancer
I agree, vickles, the BOD would spin it in some way. I think the best thing that prevents that sort of thing is that most TWI-ers live in the world, with secular jobs and contacts. I'd be more concerned about Staff and Corps. Luckily now, their numbers are fewer than at TWI"s prime.
Regards,
Shaz
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Shellon
Of course, it goes without saying that anymore that messes with my kids takes the risk of my .38 in their face.
I would not kill for TWI. They'd let me rot in some prison cell somewhere, after I did their dirty work.
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QamiQazi
I never intentionally killed anyone but I can recall annoying people to death.
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excathedra
my humor sucks
[This message was edited by excathedra on January 30, 2004 at 19:52.]
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Nomad888
NEVER!!! Kill for TWI just because they said so??? Not only no, but HELL NO!!!
Sorry, but the US Marine Corps got to me first. Part of Marine training is that you NEVER kill or do harm to anyone without just cause. We have rules that we must follow concerning "Use of Deadly Force" which essentially state that you never use force greater than that necessary to prevent your enemy from killing you, your fellow Marines, or anyone under your protection.
True, there is the unwritten rule that if your Commanding Officer makes a suggestion, you take it as though it's an order. However, there IS such a thing as an UNLAWFUL order, and if such is issued, it can be challenged via a process we refer to as "Request Mast" (other services have different names for it).
UNLAWFUL ORDERS can be disobeyed in any branch of the US military, even if an unlawful order is issued by the President/Commander-In-Chief himself. This is why I find the story related earlier about the "former Marine" who was packing his equipment to go stalk and kill someone a little hard to swallow. A real Marine would not do so, as such an "order" is unlawful (Of course, who knows what someone might do if they are out for revenge, or brainwashed).
As far as self defense, or family defense, I'd kill the perpetrator in a heartbeat if it became necessary - and I wouldn't even need a gun. I would otherwise disable the criminal and hold him/her for the police.
My 2 cents...
Nomad888
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dmiller
Lindy -- did you mean that figuratively, or literally?? No, I would never do the physical, but thinking back on my decade's tenure in TWI, I guess I did in the figurative sense.
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dmiller
Nomad --- only one word for you Sir, SALUUUUUUUUUTE!!
shoot low. they are riding Shetlands.
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Goey
Kill for TWI ?
Not me, but I knew a few folk that I think might would have, if told to by either VPW or LCM.
The WOW coordinator I had back in 79 once told me that if VPW told her to kill someone or to jump off of a bridge, that she would do it without question. I think she was trying to impress me with her level of "commitment".
Here is an interesting quote:
Good things there are civil laws - eh ?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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CKnapp3
Rottie, in my own experience, calling out the "Name of Jesus Christ" often provoked the person I was rebuking, and at one time I ended up in an altercation with someone immediately afterwards. I've also heard that it even works on mean dogs. BS!!!!!!. Since when does a dog understand the name of Christ????. And if he hates your smell, forget about calling on the lord, best make a run for it instead. (I'm sure your rottie will also be affected by that name, NOT!
:D-->)
Chuck's secret signature:
I don't need no stinkin' crown!
Chuck
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johniam
Herbiejuan: Black helicopters at the ROA???? Man, I missed all the good stuff.
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RottieGrrrl
CKnapp I understand totally what your saying, and I agree. I seem to remember a part in ACTs (I think) where it didn't work too well either.
Besides, even if it works on devil spirits, it doesn't mean the dog, or person, is possessed. It could just be a disturbed soul after you.
And I have had a wayfer lady tell me that all she would have to do is say "In the Name of Jesus" if a dog was attacking her dog, because according to her "Every name must bow to that name."
Well, I found out she was twisting that scripture terribly. Gotta be careful using these verses without understanding what situation they're talking about in the bible. Some people have a bad habit of doing that. They're great at quoting scripture, but they are totally taking it out of context.
Thanks for posting that. (Don't mean to derail the thread)
...It's hard to be humble when you own a rottweiler...
GRRRL POWER!
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Ham
RottieGrrrl, I like that: "(TWI)sting the scriptures".
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year2027
Hi All
It been said in here that there is no power in saying Jesus Chirst
Yes just saying words has no power but the power is in the spirit
So to speake Jesus Christ by the five senses has no power but to speake Jesus Christ name in the spirit has great power
How is power in the spirit by one of the holy spirit gifts or any nine of the gifts or all
Most speake it with faith
Now if one speaks the name to kill one they are miss using the spirit because there is no spirit power in hate that comes from God
And one can not miss use the spirit
so he or she is speaking by five senses only when one trys to miss use the spirit by adding hate and too kill is to hate
Use the name to control order with the gifts of the spirit because if one does not want order they will be fighting God and God will fight for you
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Ham
Or worse.. "This is the story of a man, brow-beaten of all logic and sensibilities, that he should wield death with righteous indignation. Only to be understood by those, in the (TWI)lite Zone..."
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RottieGrrrl
TWIsting scripture. LOL That's funny.
I have no problem with calling on the name of the Lord in a dire situation. I remember a story about a woman who got attacked by her husband at divorce court (outside) He was after her with a gun and she yelled out "Lord, help me!" An off duty detective shot the guy dead.
I just think that when people think they can throw the name of JC like they're some bad as$, it's terribly offensive to people who have lost their lives in acts of violence or viciousness, like they weren't spiritual or faithful enough to have been saved by God.
Like if they were on those planes during 911 I supposed the terrorists would have fallen to their feet?
It's the arrogance that really bugs me.
GRRRL POWER!
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moreyt
I was a WOW in 1978-1979.
One time my BC, who had just graduated from the WC, said "I would kill Ted Patrick, if Dr. Wierwille asked me to."
Gave me chills.
moreyt
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Schwaigers
Goey,
Your quote of LCM referring to "gladly" executing people as they did in Old Testament times ... oh boy ... that statement of his led to a nightmare for our family !! We were in Family Corps training at the time.
The Children's Activities Coordinator loudly repeated this teaching, as a way to admonish a group of small children for some (minor) misbehavior. He stood there - like LCM - and told these little kids that if they had been living in OT times, their parents would have killed them by throwing stones at them!
My husband and I witnessed this and were horrified at the fear it instilled in these children. We complained to him (the Children's Activities Coordinator) but were essentially laughed at. So we went to the Family Corps Coordinator, reported it to him, who promptly dropped us from Corps Training. That's what you get if you "speak up".
...well, that was the first time we got dropped. We went back two more times over the following four years, before we finally got the message that TWI and its Corps were not the place to be.
"Would you kill for TWI?" Hmmmmmmm. What if you are suddenly the enemy of TWI? Then do you become the target? -Pat
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Trefor Heywood
In A British Wayfarer's Story I made reference to how the British Press picked up the story about TWI. As we are not a gun toting culture here (even less so since the Dunblane Massacre) it seemed a stupid assertion to make at the time.
However some of the stuff I have read since makes one wonder if in the US at least there was a basis for the accusation. Certainly there are many groupings in the US which seem to think that guns and religion can go together comfortably and I don't think TWI went out of its way to claim this was different, given that guns were part of the corpse training at Camp Gunnison.
It would not have taken much for some extremeist idiot to feel justified in going for those who were perceived as enemies of TWI. Under LCM this paranoia only increased and when he started talking about executing people it's a miracle that someone didn't take his crap at face value.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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Catcup
I would not have killed anyone for TWI, but I had someone in my branch who will if he is only asked.
When we were coordinating the Cleveland area we had a veteran in our fellowship who had previously worked for the CIA. He was a trained killer, had done it many times and told me that if LCM asked him to off somebody, he would do it:
"without question
immediately
without blinking an eye
without a second thought
and
without remorse"
This man is
STILL IN TWI
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