While in the wc we were very isolated with the 'real' world. We had to be prepared in case we were invaded. So the only news we received was through twi. What if they told us that people were coming to kill us? In our minds we would be defending ourselves but in reality it might be a total different story.
Pretty scary, isn't it?
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
Remember the Waco cult? They had been taught that they would be in the Armageddon, so that when the feds started busting into their compound, that's probably what they thought it was.
When I heard on the radio that they were using tanks to poke holes and throw in teargas, I literally yelled at my radio for them to stop. I knew it would be a tragic end for those people, either by fight or by suicide, because I remembered similar "It's us against the world," dog soldier-type talks with VPW. I couldn't believe that the feds didn't bother to consult with any expert in cult mentality before going in there with force.
I might have. I was pretty well brain washed and loyal. I'd like to think I would have drawn the line somewhere....but I could possibly have been persuaded.
Hello...my name is Cathy....and yes sigh ..I am a kool aid drinker...
I know there are some of us that had bought into the *obey your leader unquestioningly* teachings.
As much as I hate to think about it....I know that I dearly wanted to be that doulos for God...that committed one...some one else said it *dog soldier* bad enough...that I was able to totally shut down my conscious...my feelings...any good sense I might have posessed that might have warned me that THIS was not a good plan...
Had we been told the mog or our bretheren under attack...I shudder to say...I`d a been in as much trouble as the waco group...
Shaz...I too am appalled at the lack of understanding displayed in that situation...Poor folks undoubtedly died thinking that they were doing their duty to God....as they had been taught....such a tragedy and waste.
I would not have killed or died for TWI, the "word", the MOG or any leader. I don't recall anyone ever bringing that up. Oh - we were to "forsake all others" - ya know, that verse where JC says "who is my mother, my brother..."? Implying that only those who stood with you in TWI were worthy of your friendship and love. But kill? or die? No - in all my years I never even heard LCM scream and spit about that one. I probably would have left a lot sooner had I heard something like that!
Hope R. color>size>face>
...I don't know who I am but life is for learning... we are stardust...size>face>color>
Maybe I did kill (at least played a part unintentionally) for the "Word" that twi promoted. One of my best friends in high school was was gay even though I am straight we had a good friendship with several interests in common.
I took pfal during my freshman year in college and after that participated on two summer in state outreach programs.
My friend (whom I will call Larry) had the misfortune to stop in to visit me while I was smoking hot off one of the in state programs and from the ROA. Larry had no sooner sat down in my living room when I started to give him both barrels about what how much a perverted life he was living and how it turned God's "stomach" just to look at it. I didn't even give Larry the smallest space to tell me why he came by to see me.
I have thought many times maybe he had a crisis going on. He had lots of problems with his family during our high school days. His father couldnt stand to look at him although Larry bent over backwards to win his approval. I remember the times I had dinner at Larry's house his dad wouldn't even talk to him.
I thought that I was skillfully wielding the sword of the spirit that night but what I was doing in reality was thrusting a dagger into Larry's heart.
I didn't hear much from Larry after that night. A few years later word reached me that he had died of AIDS. The first thought I had was that he had received the "recompense of his error." What compassion!
Last fall, I had Larry's name read along with my parents at a annual remembrance service at the Zen Center where I practice and I have learned more about compassion than I ever did in TWI and how every life has value and needs to be honored.
I am sorry for Larry's sake that I wasn't practicing Zen in college rather than involved with TWI. What is it?..."ye shall know them by their fruits."
Don't you remember LCM in the Advanced Class (on film!), saying "There's only one sound which scares some devil spirits", and then he pulls that big gun up from under the table and cocks it? Well, LCM certainly knew that bullet holes don't hurt spirits, so ... what else was he teaching us ... but to kill?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-gun. Dave bought me a 38 caliber semiautomatic for my birthday. But killing humans -- that's terrifying -- and I am sure TWI taught (whether between the lines or not) that we should kill for the MOG. Comes close to terrorism in my book. -Pat
I remember once the mini-MOG in our last branch telling us how "if this were the Old Testament I would be responsible for gathering the men of God of this city together to stone your son to death." Would he if he could have? He11 yes, he was an imitator of the MOGFODAT down to every breath he took.
Would I had he commanded it? I used to think yeah probably you were pretty messed up, but now I think "No!"
What annoyed me greatly at the time was that it wasn't about that pi$$y-a$$ed branch leader and his "sponsies", it was about an angry and rebellious 13-year-old boy. He should have wondered why the kid was so pi$$ed off? Could it be the fact that the most allegedly godly people around were treating him like crap? That the HFC's wife bitched him out for taking big bites of a tiny sliver of cheesecake and asking for more? Could it be that he was being crammed into a tiny mold that didn't fit him, and his own mother was too paralyzed by fear of death by separation from the Household of Faith, Piety, and Perfection that she couldn't stop them from their meanness?
I think they killed his heart for God. But maybe it can be resurrected.
Watered Garden said: Could it be that he was being crammed into a tiny mold that didn't fit him, and his own mother was too paralyzed by fear of death by separation from the Household of Faith, Piety, and Perfection that she couldn't stop them from their meanness?
===========================================
Every once in a while, someone says something that really gets my attention and it makes such sense that it's even healing!
Thank you WateredGarden, can't tell you the questions you just answered for me. :)-->
watered - my wonderful son was 13 when we were m&a'd. oh, the vicious lies spread about my son from lcm all the way down the rotten way tree - at the time my son asked how this could be happening, considering twi leadership was supposedly tuned in to God all the time...
bow jr. was so angry with twi, God, anything that reminded him of either.
BUT, when I had a cancer scare, I literally put that boy up against a wall and asked if he would just once tell me if he did or did not believe God, as I needed a prayer partner and he really was my only choice (having been recently m&a'd).
He admitted to believing God and prayed with me. He even went to the hospital and waited while I had the tumor removed. It was benign.
Reminds me of that verse in psalms - train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.
Today, 10 yrs. later, my son enjoys church once n awhile. I know he still loves God.
And yes, I felt toward the end of twi for me (1994), that to stand approved before lcm one could find themselves being told that killing someone that was gay would be the loving thing to do.
lcm said on a sunday night service that my son should have been "fried" - I know he wasn't referring to "extremely tired."
I've had a lot of that godly sorrow stuff in my own life, too, and for the same reasons. I'm so glad that Jesus Christ forgives and cleanses because it's such a dirty feeling after doing that to somebody.
I sent you a private msg.
WB
"[if] there were none who were discontented with what they have, the world would never reach for anything better." Florence Nightingale
I was once told of an incident where Weirwille ranted and raved at a BRC meeting, years ago (maybe early or mid 70's), that Ted Patrick (the deprogrammer) was evil and that somebody ought to just blow him away. After the meeting, a staffer went out to the Way Woods to see a Corps guy who was living out there in a cabin. This Corps guy was a vet, and had been in Vietnam, and was in the process of getting packed up with his guns and sleeping bag and such, to go and stalk and kill Ted Patrick.
He believed, you know, that the suggestion of the commanding officer is tantamount to a command.
The staffer stopped the guy.
-->
The person who related this incident to me, now more than twenty years ago, was the staffer.
I think we've gone over the TWI treatment of children many times on other threads. However, thank God kids do wake up and smell the coffee eventually.
That same self righteous slimeball told us to "get rid of him, he's a mad dog, don't let him back in your house!" Jeez, such compassion. Book Chapter and Verse, you creep! Show me where Jesus set up His church along those lines!
I now have an opportunity to be with my son, his wife and our wonderful grandson. We go to a real church with loving people who do not cast out the needy and I'm praying for them to go with us.
My favorite song right now is Kathy Troccoli's "Go Light Your World!"
I sure don't believe in killing, but I could easily envision busting the chops of a few chosen people of that lousy and untoward TWI!
NotinKS, I heard that too. I was in in 1973 and it was my first year I heard about that. I think the guy had been a Marine or something? People who speak in public forums to adoring fans had better watch their mouths, methinks.
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year2027
Hi Lindy Hopper
I just like to know is there is a Way believer out on a man hurt for me With a picture of me maybe they have rocks from HQ to stone me to death
Just joking but I hope we did not have any like that
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vickles
Lindy,
Good thread. I often wondered this also.
While in the wc we were very isolated with the 'real' world. We had to be prepared in case we were invaded. So the only news we received was through twi. What if they told us that people were coming to kill us? In our minds we would be defending ourselves but in reality it might be a total different story.
Pretty scary, isn't it?
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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excathedra
nevuh !
only to protect the mon of gawd
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
?
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shazdancer
Hi vickles,
Remember the Waco cult? They had been taught that they would be in the Armageddon, so that when the feds started busting into their compound, that's probably what they thought it was.
When I heard on the radio that they were using tanks to poke holes and throw in teargas, I literally yelled at my radio for them to stop. I knew it would be a tragic end for those people, either by fight or by suicide, because I remembered similar "It's us against the world," dog soldier-type talks with VPW. I couldn't believe that the feds didn't bother to consult with any expert in cult mentality before going in there with force.
Regards,
Shaz
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vickles
Shaz,
I too was at the tv knowing and understanding what those people were thinking. It was really weird!!!
I agree with you that they should have consulted with a cult expert.
What scared me about the Waco incident was that it could have actually happened to us.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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nandon
i would have.
now im "OUT and on"
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Rocky
though I was gung ho for twi, i would not have considered physically hurting someone for the cause, except in self-defense.
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krys
I might have. I was pretty well brain washed and loyal. I'd like to think I would have drawn the line somewhere....but I could possibly have been persuaded.
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WrestlenotAgainst
Not kill, CHOKESLAM!!! BWAA HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"..........but hey, I love to see a good Clothesline once in a while!
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rascal
Hello...my name is Cathy....and yes sigh ..I am a kool aid drinker...
I know there are some of us that had bought into the *obey your leader unquestioningly* teachings.
As much as I hate to think about it....I know that I dearly wanted to be that doulos for God...that committed one...some one else said it *dog soldier* bad enough...that I was able to totally shut down my conscious...my feelings...any good sense I might have posessed that might have warned me that THIS was not a good plan...
Had we been told the mog or our bretheren under attack...I shudder to say...I`d a been in as much trouble as the waco group...
Shaz...I too am appalled at the lack of understanding displayed in that situation...Poor folks undoubtedly died thinking that they were doing their duty to God....as they had been taught....such a tragedy and waste.
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sadie
If I'm not mistaken, Karl's book referred to a way believer that admitted he would have. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Hope R.
I would not have killed or died for TWI, the "word", the MOG or any leader. I don't recall anyone ever bringing that up. Oh - we were to "forsake all others" - ya know, that verse where JC says "who is my mother, my brother..."? Implying that only those who stood with you in TWI were worthy of your friendship and love. But kill? or die? No - in all my years I never even heard LCM scream and spit about that one. I probably would have left a lot sooner had I heard something like that!
Hope R. color>size>face>
...I don't know who I am but life is for learning... we are stardust...size>face>color>
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valerie52
No I would not have killed for VPW or anybody.
I knew it was against the ten commandments so I would not have done it.
screw whomever would have asked me to.
valerie52
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oenophile
Maybe I did kill (at least played a part unintentionally) for the "Word" that twi promoted. One of my best friends in high school was was gay even though I am straight we had a good friendship with several interests in common.
I took pfal during my freshman year in college and after that participated on two summer in state outreach programs.
My friend (whom I will call Larry) had the misfortune to stop in to visit me while I was smoking hot off one of the in state programs and from the ROA. Larry had no sooner sat down in my living room when I started to give him both barrels about what how much a perverted life he was living and how it turned God's "stomach" just to look at it. I didn't even give Larry the smallest space to tell me why he came by to see me.
I have thought many times maybe he had a crisis going on. He had lots of problems with his family during our high school days. His father couldnt stand to look at him although Larry bent over backwards to win his approval. I remember the times I had dinner at Larry's house his dad wouldn't even talk to him.
I thought that I was skillfully wielding the sword of the spirit that night but what I was doing in reality was thrusting a dagger into Larry's heart.
I didn't hear much from Larry after that night. A few years later word reached me that he had died of AIDS. The first thought I had was that he had received the "recompense of his error." What compassion!
Last fall, I had Larry's name read along with my parents at a annual remembrance service at the Zen Center where I practice and I have learned more about compassion than I ever did in TWI and how every life has value and needs to be honored.
I am sorry for Larry's sake that I wasn't practicing Zen in college rather than involved with TWI. What is it?..."ye shall know them by their fruits."
Personally approves the wine list.
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Schwaigers
Don't you remember LCM in the Advanced Class (on film!), saying "There's only one sound which scares some devil spirits", and then he pulls that big gun up from under the table and cocks it? Well, LCM certainly knew that bullet holes don't hurt spirits, so ... what else was he teaching us ... but to kill?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not anti-gun. Dave bought me a 38 caliber semiautomatic for my birthday. But killing humans -- that's terrifying -- and I am sure TWI taught (whether between the lines or not) that we should kill for the MOG. Comes close to terrorism in my book. -Pat
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Shellon
Kill for TWI?
Nope
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Watered Garden
I remember once the mini-MOG in our last branch telling us how "if this were the Old Testament I would be responsible for gathering the men of God of this city together to stone your son to death." Would he if he could have? He11 yes, he was an imitator of the MOGFODAT down to every breath he took.
Would I had he commanded it? I used to think yeah probably you were pretty messed up, but now I think "No!"
What annoyed me greatly at the time was that it wasn't about that pi$$y-a$$ed branch leader and his "sponsies", it was about an angry and rebellious 13-year-old boy. He should have wondered why the kid was so pi$$ed off? Could it be the fact that the most allegedly godly people around were treating him like crap? That the HFC's wife bitched him out for taking big bites of a tiny sliver of cheesecake and asking for more? Could it be that he was being crammed into a tiny mold that didn't fit him, and his own mother was too paralyzed by fear of death by separation from the Household of Faith, Piety, and Perfection that she couldn't stop them from their meanness?
I think they killed his heart for God. But maybe it can be resurrected.
WG
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Shellon
Watered Garden said: Could it be that he was being crammed into a tiny mold that didn't fit him, and his own mother was too paralyzed by fear of death by separation from the Household of Faith, Piety, and Perfection that she couldn't stop them from their meanness?
===========================================
Every once in a while, someone says something that really gets my attention and it makes such sense that it's even healing!
Thank you WateredGarden, can't tell you the questions you just answered for me.
:)-->
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bowtwi
watered - my wonderful son was 13 when we were m&a'd. oh, the vicious lies spread about my son from lcm all the way down the rotten way tree - at the time my son asked how this could be happening, considering twi leadership was supposedly tuned in to God all the time...
bow jr. was so angry with twi, God, anything that reminded him of either.
BUT, when I had a cancer scare, I literally put that boy up against a wall and asked if he would just once tell me if he did or did not believe God, as I needed a prayer partner and he really was my only choice (having been recently m&a'd).
He admitted to believing God and prayed with me. He even went to the hospital and waited while I had the tumor removed. It was benign.
Reminds me of that verse in psalms - train up a child in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.
Today, 10 yrs. later, my son enjoys church once n awhile. I know he still loves God.
And yes, I felt toward the end of twi for me (1994), that to stand approved before lcm one could find themselves being told that killing someone that was gay would be the loving thing to do.
lcm said on a sunday night service that my son should have been "fried" - I know he wasn't referring to "extremely tired."
B - Better
O - Off
W - Without
t - the
w - way
i - international
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waterbuffalo
{{{{{{{Watered Garden}}}}}}}
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Son}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
"[if] there were none who were discontented with what they have, the world would never reach for anything better." Florence Nightingale
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waterbuffalo
oenophile,
I've had a lot of that godly sorrow stuff in my own life, too, and for the same reasons. I'm so glad that Jesus Christ forgives and cleanses because it's such a dirty feeling after doing that to somebody.
I sent you a private msg.
WB
"[if] there were none who were discontented with what they have, the world would never reach for anything better." Florence Nightingale
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notinKansasanymore
I was once told of an incident where Weirwille ranted and raved at a BRC meeting, years ago (maybe early or mid 70's), that Ted Patrick (the deprogrammer) was evil and that somebody ought to just blow him away. After the meeting, a staffer went out to the Way Woods to see a Corps guy who was living out there in a cabin. This Corps guy was a vet, and had been in Vietnam, and was in the process of getting packed up with his guns and sleeping bag and such, to go and stalk and kill Ted Patrick.
He believed, you know, that the suggestion of the commanding officer is tantamount to a command.
The staffer stopped the guy.
The person who related this incident to me, now more than twenty years ago, was the staffer.
"Live just, and fear not."
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Watered Garden
I think we've gone over the TWI treatment of children many times on other threads. However, thank God kids do wake up and smell the coffee eventually.
That same self righteous slimeball told us to "get rid of him, he's a mad dog, don't let him back in your house!" Jeez, such compassion. Book Chapter and Verse, you creep! Show me where Jesus set up His church along those lines!
I now have an opportunity to be with my son, his wife and our wonderful grandson. We go to a real church with loving people who do not cast out the needy and I'm praying for them to go with us.
My favorite song right now is Kathy Troccoli's "Go Light Your World!"
I sure don't believe in killing, but I could easily envision busting the chops of a few chosen people of that lousy and untoward TWI!
NotinKS, I heard that too. I was in in 1973 and it was my first year I heard about that. I think the guy had been a Marine or something? People who speak in public forums to adoring fans had better watch their mouths, methinks.
WG
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Watered Garden
Shellon - I'm thankful that helped.
BOWTWI: I remember you telling about some of that. LCM will answer to the Father of us all for his cruelty. I hope I get to watch!
;)-->
Water Buff: Hugs to you too!
WG
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