Yes you are right it is her band Union Station and it was a live CD, and I never noticed the name of her band or the name of the guys in it before. Just knew I liked her voice. --> :)-->
That song Man of Constant Sorrow, as well as, Down To The River To Pray and both on it.
I never read The Marxist Minstrels so can't add anything on that one. Sorry. :(-->
A la, I've got that book out in the garage and I'm going to get it out tomorrow and peruse it, just for you. :)-->
I can't even remember why it got circulated, it was around 70, 71 or so though if I remember right. It would poke it's head up from time to time. I'll have to look at it.
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The Sickth Corpse had the "privilege" of hearing him speak alive and in person.
He's the guy that thought that Rock & Roll was a Communist Plot to brainwash the youth of America and subvert Western Civilization as we know it. He accused the USSR of using music with a certain "beat" to cause mass hypnosis in unsuspecting listeners.
After our teenaged nerves were sufficiently broken down, and our brains were thoroughly washed, all they had to do was give the word and we would revolt, allowing the Commies to come in and take over the government!
He wrote two books we were exposed to: The Marxist Minstrels as well as Communism, Hypnotism and the Beatles.
Of course, the Beatles were evil puppets of the Marxist Revolution. Look at the mass hysteria they caused when they came to the United States! And that song... "Back in the USSR" - well, by golly - they want to lead us to believe that we'd be lucky to live there! (...you don't know how lucky you are, boy... back in the USSR)
Being a huge Beatle fan, I thought this man was insane. I mean, I'd been listening and playing Lennon/McCartney tunes for years and never got possessed or had the desire to overthrow the government!
After his long, boring, mind-numbing nonsense was over, I went back to my dorm room, got out my trusty little cassette player, popped in a tape I'd made of the White Album, and played it as loud as I could! None of my roomies told me to turn it off, we all just sang along!
Hope R. color>size>face>
show me round the snow-peaked mountains way down south... take me to your daddy's farm... let me hear your balalaika's ringing out...come and keep your comrade warm!
And what about playing their albums backwards and the hidden messages they said. Like Paul is dead. I think someone had too much time on their hands. --> To think this rock band was going to corrupt the minds of the USA teens was a tad paranoid IMO.
Okay, kiddo here's the email I sent ya, with an addition or two...Hope heard the guy so that's good input!
Okay, A la. Found the book. It's a first edition, copyright 1974, published by American Christian College Publications so I guess that's when it came out, although I could swear I read it earlier than that. Well, there goes the neighborhood, the brain cell said to the ear drum!
Author: Dr. David A. Noebel. Got a "$2.00" price on the cover. Whoo hoo!
There's actually quite a bit of information in it, he mentions everyone from Lou Adler to Frank Zappa.
A lot of it deals with what he says are/were Communist owned and operated music companies. You'd have to read it to see what you think if he's correct in stating that these people were deliberately making music to condition the youth of the world for a communist takeover. I've heard some of the childrens music he talks about and I dunno, it's hard for me to make the connection he makes to them being subversive. Still, he quotes some interesting analysis of the way that the music is constructed. I'm always interested in all-things-musical, so although I don't agree with it, I still find it interesting. I'd call it a very hard core conservative Christian backed book, presented in a factual manner.
One of his main premises was that Communist efforts were incorporating the arts and music specifically to infiltrate and influence youth. It's a "conspiracy" book, if we wanted to call it that...Evil forces behind the scenes manipulating music to break down and destroy emotioanl, intellectual and moral fiber, world domination, demonic planning, that kind of stuff.
I will say this, the guy had a lot of background information in the appendixes, footnotes, and bibliography. It wasn't just a rant on the evils of 'that dammed rock music'. There's a lot of work represented in it.
Some of it hasn't stood up, though. His pieces on Bob Dylan fr'instance, make Dylan sound like the Commie Pied Piper of the folk rock age, but it's well known that Dylan was never fully embraced by the hard core folkie/political community because he wouldn't take a full unqualified stand on every cause that came up. He was a kid who played in rock bands and liked songwriting and is really more a product of the times than a political black hat. Today he states his primary focus has always been on the art of songwriting. He wrote what he heard, what he thought would be cool and what he thought would get him laid. ;)--> His subject matter has varied widely over the years and he deliberately dropped the folk tag for rock to avoid being trapped in a niche he didn't want. At the time of this book though, he probably looked like Lenin incarnated to Noebel. Noebel does this with other people too.
Likewise with the Beatles, I think. The book doesn't really answer the question of who influenced them but rather damns them as filthy perpetrators of evil.
Here again he missed a very important fact and this is that their producer George Martin was responsible for a great deal of the innovative sounds they produced. Basically they were songwriters and performers, very good songwriters when I look a the scope of their catalogue. Everyone who played with them in later years has commented on how knowledable they were and proficient on their instruments.
The Beatles have all credited Martin as the one who made their ideas reality. He brought a whole range of ideas and techniques to them that none of them knew anything about. A lot of their stuff would be pretty half baked, to be honest, had he not influenced and crafted their sound. If I listen to some of the early work they produced themselves after the Beatles disbanded it's easy to see that they weren't experts at engineering or production and a great deal of their group sounds was based on good engineering in the studio and a great deal of time consuming work in mixing and editing. The fact he missed George Martin's influence is a major error. Same with Brian Epstein. He brought the unique dress to their act, the way they stood, all of that. Were Martin and Epstein Commie driven drug addicts? Hardly.
Sooooo I'm not sure what I think of the book. At the time, it seemed a little obvious, as if the only people gasping at what he wrote about all the drug references were those who didn't follow music. Some of his conclusions are arguable, some incomplete, some are kind of whacky, others obvious like Pete Seeger's history.
As far as the Beatles go, he also missed the fact that MONEY was the prime motivator behind their success and Commies don't like that capitalistic crap. Not a one of them gave it all away for the "People's Cause". The Beatles were fairly straightforward musicians and songwriters and their craft has held up nicely on a lot of their material. They're management and label marketed them like hot dogs. When they tried their ideas on their own with the Apple label, it pretty much proved to be an open spigot for any hair brained idea that walked in the door and they had to cut it way back before they spent all their money. So, I dunno.
If you want it, I'll send it to you. Lemme know.
love ya,
/jr
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[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 15:11.]
And also, what do any of you folks know about Bob Dylan's album "Slow Train Comin" and "Saved"? When I was in rez, Craig came into study hall one day and layed this tape of Dylan's Christian music on us, and he seemed pretty thrilled with it. Craig seemed to be open enough to accept that fact that even though this was the "subversive" Bob Dylan, one of the focuses in the book The Marxist Minstrals as previously mentioned, that "just maybe Bob Dylan was now a Christian believer". He really seemed to like the song "Man Gave Names To All The Animals", which he played for us as well. In fact, I have the CD and I really like it. The words are, even though they seem to be very "Christianesque", still very very "Dylanesque". In that he he still shows that uncanny ability to say what he is saying with that "hidden meaning thing" that he was so good at. The music on the album is superb also, but you folks probably have heard it.
I have always been a Dylan fan since I was fourteen or so, and the album Slow Train Comin is definitely one of my favorites.
One thing I remember about alla that though, is that one time Ralph Dubofsky told me that Craig didn't know what he was talking about and that Dylan wasn't really a Christian guy now, but rather, he did that album just for the money and to throw a monkey wrench into his fans' thinking. But I don't know, I read that when he toured the year that he did that album, he actually did alot of "fire and brimstone" preaching and that he really ....ed off and alienated his alot of his fans. Some of them even booed him during his concerts.
Anybody else know anything about all of that? Was he for real on all of that, or was he just doing it for publicity? It seems to me by listening to the words that he really was for real
[This message was edited by Buck on January 06, 2003 at 10:11.]
Interesting yall, I never heard most of that stuff before. Thanks loads for posting it. I will have to re-read it when home tonight, not the time to give it right now. Thanks!
Thanks Socks! I'm sure others here will appreciate your e-mail/post. Maybe get some good discussion going on 'subversive' music and all!
Buck, yes I had heard that same story about Dylan's monkey wrench and just trying to cash in on the Christian Music scene since his sales were down or something like that? It's weird the stuff we heard at times??? -->
Dylan was again a bit before my time, but my brother was a huge Dylan fan and played lots of his songs on his guitar. I remember seeing the lyrics to Dylan's songs go for pages sometimes. He sure had lots to say! :D-->
Talking about communists and all. I was told by my RC that James Taylor was a communist. I lent my RC one of my James Taylor tapes at one point. The "Never Die Young' album which I thought had some pretty neat songs on it. One song was called, 'Home By Another Way' which talked about the Magi and King Herod and the other one was 'Never Die Young' which my husband always thought was talking about the return. But, the RC decided that the song 'First of May' showed that James Taylor was a communist since May 1st is a celebrated communistic holiday. That was the end of James Taylor for me (for awhile anyhow). I wish I had never lent him that tape, I would have enjoyed Mr. Taylor for many more years! -->
Yeah, Taylor's a commie. He and John Hall did that whole anti-nuclear thing years ago and boy, if being against nuclear power plants don't make ya commie, what does??? :D-->
Just kidding. I like electricity, too. Voltage rocks!!!
The rush to judgment without any real substantive information is typical of Way-Borg "mentality", and I use that word loosely.
If Taylor's a commie, pass the armbands.
I love that song Home by Another Way. Nice tune.
I don't exactly look to entertainers for factual information (rather the way it's processed and expressed), but J.T.'s thoughtful approach to his music and wide range of observation makes me interested in what he would think as well as why he would think that way. No, I've never heard anything in his music close to him suggesting anything more radical than how difficult it can be at times to sort through what goes on in this life.
I've seen him a few times and it's like watching your brother play, the one who's been gone away for a long time and now's come home with stories to tell and gifts to give and you can't wait to just sit down and hear all about it because now the family's all together again and we can celebrate our love together. His is a very unique voice. He brings calm to an audience by simply being who he is. It's very interesting. He's a keeper.
:)-->
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[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 14:46.]
Hey Buck! I don't know whether Dylan's conversion was a scam. If it was, what did he gain? He lost some fans who figured uh oh. I don't think so, personally. He has had a way of jumping around over the years from one thing to another. I read some reviews of concerts too, where he was preachin' from the stage. There was a church here in California he was attending at one time, can't remember the name. On face value I'd say he was legit, but face value is a hard thing to determine with Dylan as you say. People grow and change, and he's entitled. Although (IMO) he's very talented, he was also sort of a hack the way he glommed on to the folk scene and invented himself in to a figure of the times, but hey. He saw a hole and he filled it. If he hadn't had something enduring to offer, he'd be next to the Easybeats in the music bins. :)-->
That tune "Man Gave Names" is a cool song! For me, it was a nice surprise, an indication of Dylan's song writing chops. That rhyme thing he uses gives it an internal rhythm that makes you go, "yeah, well sure. That animal's a Bear!" It's slick. Who the H ever came up with a song like that before, y'know? :)-->
Then after he's got ya ready to fill in every name because of the rhyme scheme, he tosses in the word "lake" and you know what's coming...and it's so cool because it made me think, Damm! I can guess the name, but ol' Adam and Eve never saw him coming... ;)-->
"Serve Somebody" was another one. Classic statement, "it may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody". He doesn't say what that means, or how you'll do that or say you're going to heaven or hell for doing either one . He limits the song to one idea and he just works away at it. On one level a person can think, yeah, no matter who you are you're still answerable for your actions. On another, there's a spiritual ring to it. It's a cool tune.
Some songs take an idea and try to express every single angle of it..."God saved me, I'm blessed, angels rejoice, the sadness is gone, His mercy made me whole", etc. and you get the whole range of what's on the person's heart all at once. One thing Dylan does very well is take one thing, one idea or sentence and then explores it, makes a big diamond out of a little piece of coal. He's good.
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[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 14:42.]
[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 14:54.]
I remember seeing an interview with him while he was promoting that album. He talked about his dad and how he had a funny poem about the First of May... wish I could remember it, it was cute.
And if he's a Commie, then where does that leave vocal anti-nuke people like Jackson Browne?
It's all a case of private interpretation!!!
My best example is Bruce Springsteen. "Born in the USA" is a song about a young man who survives Viet Nam only, gets home and can't find a job, gets no help from anyone, and basically says that his life has gone nowhere - it's a song about broken American dreams.
That song was used as an anthem for the Reagan re-election campaign in 1984. Springsteen has commented many times that he was furious that the song was used that way. In an interview he said that he felt that Reagan "hijacked" the song and if Reagan and his advisors had bothered to read the lyrics, they never would have used it!
The whole idea that the Beatles, James Taylor or Bruce Springsteen are Communists who write songs to rally people to revolt is nuts.
Someone should start a thread on the various "conspiracy theories" that seemed to seep into HQ's in the late 70's. The "Marxist Minstrals" was mild compared to "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" and all that junk about the World Bank and the Illuminati...
As for me, I'm gonna put on "The Rising" and make dinner.
Yeah, Hope. Reagan and that Born in the USA thing...Reagan would have been embarrassed I'm sure, if he could have remembered what he said about it later....
This all reeks of the "genuine suspicion" thing that came not too much later, doesn't it?
In Noebel's book, the only way a person for sure isn't a communist is if they've got it stamped on their forehead "Me No Commie" and they've got their Good Citizen card stamped. If a person looks to any kind of alternative solution, approach or philosophy that isn't straight up the flag pole saluting to God and country and apple pie, then they're SUSPECT!
I'm sure some of the people he comments on appreciated the publicity. "Finally, someone sees we're here!"
And again, Pete Seeger. Everyone knows banjos are dangerous tools of the takeover.
:)--> :D-->
Perhaps the greatest conspiracy song of all time...
Louie Louie!
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Socks I recall reading the book you just posted about and my first thought back then was hogwash. As I posted in my earlier posts on this thread, since the beginning of popular songs and music in the USA there has always been the headed for hell in a hand basket critics. Even Steven Foster was reported to be a 'darkie lover'.
I have always loved Bob Dylan and his music and compositions. Bob is a musical poet and I used to read his songs like I would poetry. He is a musical genius and his way of writing lyrics was copied by The Beatles and many others. Yes, I believe Dylan's conversion to Christianity was for real, too many of his songs from that time reflected his beliefs at that time. However he did return to his roots Judaism and far as I know he still is there. I used to do one his songs You Gotta Serve Somebody.
In the folk music era there was an attempt by the coomies to gain a foothold in the folk music heyday. During the sixties and early seventies I subscribed to two folk music trade publications Sing Out and Broadside (which I still have copies of). Sing Out had articles about folk music and printed words and music in the magazine, but as time went on their articles became more anti American government and our capitalistic society. Broadside was even worse they urged college students to demonstrate against The Viet Nam War. After a few years of subscribing I grew disgusted with the far left issues and never renewed my subscription. The commies did make a dent within the folk music scene but faded away and went Blowing In The Wind.
Yes, as back then so it is today, critics clamor and wring their hands crying the music of today is causing my kid to commit all kinds of unthinkable things. Let's ban it from the face of the earth. So sorry folks it ain't coming down that way. The youth of today are going to have THEIR music.
Hey Socks, thanks alot, that was cool. I appreciate the info, and really, thank you ALL. This really is a cool thread.
And Ted, did you say that you have a kid in a figurative manner, or do you have some kids? I had never heard whether or not you had any kids. And if you do have kids, are they into music?
And Oakspear, that Nora Jones is definitely awsome no? Love that voice. Some women's voices just plain "get me", and hers is one of them Just like Hope R.'s.....
Thanks for all the input on the book. I don't have much time, but I'll be back.
Ahhhhh, Norah Jones too cool! :D-->
The only thing I heard about Norah Jones is that she is Ravi Shankar's daughter. Must check that one out.
Ok, since we are talking about Dylan, must mention another name I grew up listening to (via guitar playing brother and that was JOHN PRINE). I saw him on a music special awhile ago.
Oh man! ALP, I LOVE to listen to John Prine. In fact, I have turned my kids onto his music, and they (my two teenagers) love his stuff. My personal favorite is "Hello In There" which rarely fails to jerk a tear from my eyes. My kid's favorite is "Ain't Hurtin Nobody". Yeah, that guy is an amazing lyricist. Chris Kristofferson (he and someone else very famous)went to see John Prine when he was a virtually unknown, and Kristofferson said that John Prine "writes like he is seventy five years old, except that he's still just a young kid". That is a somewhat heavily "paraphrased version" of what K.K. said, but it is close. Somebody correct me if necessary. It's written on one of John Prines' albums. But anyway, K.K. was very impressed, and I think he had a lot to do with boosting John Prine's musical career.
Ya know, I have even used that song "hello in there" in twigs during my days with The Way. The song is essentially about taking the time out of your busy day to take heed of "old folks" whose lives are in their sunset years after they have lived through the common heart breaking situations that seem to befall us poor damned humans. Ya know, this world is a HARD f____ng place sometimes.
So, I would have the words typed out so that no one would miss the words, then I would play the song in Twig and then teach on the Love Of God and how EVERYBODY in this whole confused world needed to hear some kind and comforting words, "so lets be those people who are kind and comforting"...
And ya know, most of the folks in those twigs around the country had never even heard of John Prine, but after that they did, and the point was always well taken. If you don't know the song, then down load it, sit down, and listen to it. It's beautiful. It'll melt ya...
the 70's. One of my favorite bands was Orleans. John Hall and Lance Hoppen were the guitarists doing nice harmony stuff. John Hall had worked with Seals and Crofts, Bonnie Raitt, lots of people and then bam! Orleans. He wrote a lot of their songs with his then wife Johanna. Here's the lyrics to a song they charted with from their September 73 release, Orleans ll. An all time socks family favorite and an open invitation...
Socks, Wow, 'Dance With Me'! Don't know how I missed that one when I checked the tunes of 1973. What a beautiful song! I read the words and sang the whole tune in my head. What a trip!
Buck, John Prine, there was a song I used to play of his I'm sure. I'll have to get back on that on. Nice words to that song. I used to love introducing 'Secular' music into twig. It was such a nice change!!! And so often, the words in 'secular' music were more heart wrenching and not so packaged as in TWI (IMO). Socks touched on this I believe.
Chatty, you're so quick with things. You always amaze me.
So James Taylor is no commie after all! :D-->
My gut feeling was that, but it sure put a damper on things after I was told such hog-wash. I have never had the privilege to see JT live, but when I have seen him perform on television, he is so soothing. His presence is so peaceful. His eyes are so piercing. And such a distinctive voice. And he seems so 'unmoved' by all his success. Just wants to make good music. I find that this is the signature of a true musician.
Buck, your song reminded me of another song like John Prine's, it's a little sadder but just as touching. Kathy Mattea had it on her first album. Must hunt it up.
Well, I hate to leave but this world is a tough place to live in sometimes (to paraphrase Buck)and then there is this wonderful thread here on GS.
Oak, you can come by anytime when you need a break from the Mike Wars. We are always playing good music and the coffee/tea is hot too .
Hi to Ted and Hope too!
Hope, loved your story about going back to the room and blasting the 'White Album'. What a rebel! Good for you! The White Album...
1. Back in the U.S.S.R.
2. Dear Prudence
3. Glass onion
4. Ob-la-di, ob-la-da
5. Wild honey pie
6. The continuing story of bungalow bill
7. While my guitar gently weeps
8. Happiness is a warm gun
9. Martha my dear
10. I'm so tired
11. Blackbird
12. Piggies
13. Rocky racoon
14. Don't pass me by
15. Why don't we do it in the road
16. I will
17. Julia
18. Birthday
19. Yer blues
20. Mother natures sun
21. Everybody's got something to hide exept for me and my monkey
22. Sexy sadie
23. Helter skelter
24. Long,long,long
25. Revolution 1
26. Honey pie
27. Savoy truffle
28. Cry baby cry
29. Revolution 9
30. Good
(This album released in 1968 and most of the songs have endured the test of time.)
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ChattyKathy
A la prochaine,
Yes you are right it is her band Union Station and it was a live CD, and I never noticed the name of her band or the name of the guys in it before. Just knew I liked her voice.
--> 
:)-->
That song Man of Constant Sorrow, as well as, Down To The River To Pray and both on it.
I never read The Marxist Minstrels so can't add anything on that one. Sorry.
:(-->
See ya!
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socks
A la, I've got that book out in the garage and I'm going to get it out tomorrow and peruse it, just for you.
:)-->
I can't even remember why it got circulated, it was around 70, 71 or so though if I remember right. It would poke it's head up from time to time. I'll have to look at it.
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A la prochaine
Thanks Socks,
'til the next time...
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Hope R.
Ah... David Noebel... what a bore!
The Sickth Corpse had the "privilege" of hearing him speak alive and in person.
He's the guy that thought that Rock & Roll was a Communist Plot to brainwash the youth of America and subvert Western Civilization as we know it. He accused the USSR of using music with a certain "beat" to cause mass hypnosis in unsuspecting listeners.
After our teenaged nerves were sufficiently broken down, and our brains were thoroughly washed, all they had to do was give the word and we would revolt, allowing the Commies to come in and take over the government!
He wrote two books we were exposed to: The Marxist Minstrels as well as Communism, Hypnotism and the Beatles.
Of course, the Beatles were evil puppets of the Marxist Revolution. Look at the mass hysteria they caused when they came to the United States! And that song... "Back in the USSR" - well, by golly - they want to lead us to believe that we'd be lucky to live there! (...you don't know how lucky you are, boy... back in the USSR)
Being a huge Beatle fan, I thought this man was insane. I mean, I'd been listening and playing Lennon/McCartney tunes for years and never got possessed or had the desire to overthrow the government!
After his long, boring, mind-numbing nonsense was over, I went back to my dorm room, got out my trusty little cassette player, popped in a tape I'd made of the White Album, and played it as loud as I could! None of my roomies told me to turn it off, we all just sang along!
Hope R. color>size>face>
show me round the snow-peaked mountains way down south... take me to your daddy's farm... let me hear your balalaika's ringing out...come and keep your comrade warm!
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ChattyKathy
And what about playing their albums backwards and the hidden messages they said. Like Paul is dead. I think someone had too much time on their hands.
--> To think this rock band was going to corrupt the minds of the USA teens was a tad paranoid IMO.
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socks
Okay, kiddo here's the email I sent ya, with an addition or two...Hope heard the guy so that's good input!
Okay, A la. Found the book. It's a first edition, copyright 1974, published by American Christian College Publications so I guess that's when it came out, although I could swear I read it earlier than that. Well, there goes the neighborhood, the brain cell said to the ear drum!
Author: Dr. David A. Noebel. Got a "$2.00" price on the cover. Whoo hoo!
There's actually quite a bit of information in it, he mentions everyone from Lou Adler to Frank Zappa.
A lot of it deals with what he says are/were Communist owned and operated music companies. You'd have to read it to see what you think if he's correct in stating that these people were deliberately making music to condition the youth of the world for a communist takeover. I've heard some of the childrens music he talks about and I dunno, it's hard for me to make the connection he makes to them being subversive. Still, he quotes some interesting analysis of the way that the music is constructed. I'm always interested in all-things-musical, so although I don't agree with it, I still find it interesting. I'd call it a very hard core conservative Christian backed book, presented in a factual manner.
One of his main premises was that Communist efforts were incorporating the arts and music specifically to infiltrate and influence youth. It's a "conspiracy" book, if we wanted to call it that...Evil forces behind the scenes manipulating music to break down and destroy emotioanl, intellectual and moral fiber, world domination, demonic planning, that kind of stuff.
I will say this, the guy had a lot of background information in the appendixes, footnotes, and bibliography. It wasn't just a rant on the evils of 'that dammed rock music'. There's a lot of work represented in it.
Some of it hasn't stood up, though. His pieces on Bob Dylan fr'instance, make Dylan sound like the Commie Pied Piper of the folk rock age, but it's well known that Dylan was never fully embraced by the hard core folkie/political community because he wouldn't take a full unqualified stand on every cause that came up. He was a kid who played in rock bands and liked songwriting and is really more a product of the times than a political black hat. Today he states his primary focus has always been on the art of songwriting. He wrote what he heard, what he thought would be cool and what he thought would get him laid.
;)--> His subject matter has varied widely over the years and he deliberately dropped the folk tag for rock to avoid being trapped in a niche he didn't want. At the time of this book though, he probably looked like Lenin incarnated to Noebel. Noebel does this with other people too.
Likewise with the Beatles, I think. The book doesn't really answer the question of who influenced them but rather damns them as filthy perpetrators of evil.
Here again he missed a very important fact and this is that their producer George Martin was responsible for a great deal of the innovative sounds they produced. Basically they were songwriters and performers, very good songwriters when I look a the scope of their catalogue. Everyone who played with them in later years has commented on how knowledable they were and proficient on their instruments.
The Beatles have all credited Martin as the one who made their ideas reality. He brought a whole range of ideas and techniques to them that none of them knew anything about. A lot of their stuff would be pretty half baked, to be honest, had he not influenced and crafted their sound. If I listen to some of the early work they produced themselves after the Beatles disbanded it's easy to see that they weren't experts at engineering or production and a great deal of their group sounds was based on good engineering in the studio and a great deal of time consuming work in mixing and editing. The fact he missed George Martin's influence is a major error. Same with Brian Epstein. He brought the unique dress to their act, the way they stood, all of that. Were Martin and Epstein Commie driven drug addicts? Hardly.
Sooooo I'm not sure what I think of the book. At the time, it seemed a little obvious, as if the only people gasping at what he wrote about all the drug references were those who didn't follow music. Some of his conclusions are arguable, some incomplete, some are kind of whacky, others obvious like Pete Seeger's history.
As far as the Beatles go, he also missed the fact that MONEY was the prime motivator behind their success and Commies don't like that capitalistic crap. Not a one of them gave it all away for the "People's Cause". The Beatles were fairly straightforward musicians and songwriters and their craft has held up nicely on a lot of their material. They're management and label marketed them like hot dogs. When they tried their ideas on their own with the Apple label, it pretty much proved to be an open spigot for any hair brained idea that walked in the door and they had to cut it way back before they spent all their money. So, I dunno.
If you want it, I'll send it to you. Lemme know.
love ya,
/jr
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 15:11.]
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Buck
Hey socks, Cool post, thanks...
And also, what do any of you folks know about Bob Dylan's album "Slow Train Comin" and "Saved"? When I was in rez, Craig came into study hall one day and layed this tape of Dylan's Christian music on us, and he seemed pretty thrilled with it. Craig seemed to be open enough to accept that fact that even though this was the "subversive" Bob Dylan, one of the focuses in the book The Marxist Minstrals as previously mentioned, that "just maybe Bob Dylan was now a Christian believer". He really seemed to like the song "Man Gave Names To All The Animals", which he played for us as well. In fact, I have the CD and I really like it. The words are, even though they seem to be very "Christianesque", still very very "Dylanesque". In that he he still shows that uncanny ability to say what he is saying with that "hidden meaning thing" that he was so good at. The music on the album is superb also, but you folks probably have heard it.
I have always been a Dylan fan since I was fourteen or so, and the album Slow Train Comin is definitely one of my favorites.
One thing I remember about alla that though, is that one time Ralph Dubofsky told me that Craig didn't know what he was talking about and that Dylan wasn't really a Christian guy now, but rather, he did that album just for the money and to throw a monkey wrench into his fans' thinking. But I don't know, I read that when he toured the year that he did that album, he actually did alot of "fire and brimstone" preaching and that he really ....ed off and alienated his alot of his fans. Some of them even booed him during his concerts.
Anybody else know anything about all of that? Was he for real on all of that, or was he just doing it for publicity? It seems to me by listening to the words that he really was for real
[This message was edited by Buck on January 06, 2003 at 10:11.]
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ChattyKathy
Hope, Socks and Buck,
Interesting yall, I never heard most of that stuff before. Thanks loads for posting it. I will have to re-read it when home tonight, not the time to give it right now. Thanks!
Kathy
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A la prochaine
Socks and Buck,
Thanks Socks! I'm sure others here will appreciate your e-mail/post. Maybe get some good discussion going on 'subversive' music and all!
Buck, yes I had heard that same story about Dylan's monkey wrench and just trying to cash in on the Christian Music scene since his sales were down or something like that? It's weird the stuff we heard at times???
-->
Dylan was again a bit before my time, but my brother was a huge Dylan fan and played lots of his songs on his guitar. I remember seeing the lyrics to Dylan's songs go for pages sometimes. He sure had lots to say!
:D-->
Talking about communists and all. I was told by my RC that James Taylor was a communist. I lent my RC one of my James Taylor tapes at one point. The "Never Die Young' album which I thought had some pretty neat songs on it. One song was called, 'Home By Another Way' which talked about the Magi and King Herod and the other one was 'Never Die Young' which my husband always thought was talking about the return. But, the RC decided that the song 'First of May' showed that James Taylor was a communist since May 1st is a celebrated communistic holiday. That was the end of James Taylor for me (for awhile anyhow). I wish I had never lent him that tape, I would have enjoyed Mr. Taylor for many more years!
-->
'til the next time...
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socks
hey a la, no prob.
:)-->
Yeah, Taylor's a commie. He and John Hall did that whole anti-nuclear thing years ago and boy, if being against nuclear power plants don't make ya commie, what does???
:D-->
Just kidding. I like electricity, too. Voltage rocks!!!
The rush to judgment without any real substantive information is typical of Way-Borg "mentality", and I use that word loosely.
If Taylor's a commie, pass the armbands.
I love that song Home by Another Way. Nice tune.
I don't exactly look to entertainers for factual information (rather the way it's processed and expressed), but J.T.'s thoughtful approach to his music and wide range of observation makes me interested in what he would think as well as why he would think that way. No, I've never heard anything in his music close to him suggesting anything more radical than how difficult it can be at times to sort through what goes on in this life.
I've seen him a few times and it's like watching your brother play, the one who's been gone away for a long time and now's come home with stories to tell and gifts to give and you can't wait to just sit down and hear all about it because now the family's all together again and we can celebrate our love together. His is a very unique voice. He brings calm to an audience by simply being who he is. It's very interesting. He's a keeper.
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 14:46.]
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socks
Hey Buck! I don't know whether Dylan's conversion was a scam. If it was, what did he gain? He lost some fans who figured uh oh. I don't think so, personally. He has had a way of jumping around over the years from one thing to another. I read some reviews of concerts too, where he was preachin' from the stage. There was a church here in California he was attending at one time, can't remember the name. On face value I'd say he was legit, but face value is a hard thing to determine with Dylan as you say. People grow and change, and he's entitled. Although (IMO) he's very talented, he was also sort of a hack the way he glommed on to the folk scene and invented himself in to a figure of the times, but hey. He saw a hole and he filled it. If he hadn't had something enduring to offer, he'd be next to the Easybeats in the music bins.
:)-->
That tune "Man Gave Names" is a cool song! For me, it was a nice surprise, an indication of Dylan's song writing chops. That rhyme thing he uses gives it an internal rhythm that makes you go, "yeah, well sure. That animal's a Bear!" It's slick. Who the H ever came up with a song like that before, y'know?
:)-->
Then after he's got ya ready to fill in every name because of the rhyme scheme, he tosses in the word "lake" and you know what's coming...and it's so cool because it made me think, Damm! I can guess the name, but ol' Adam and Eve never saw him coming...
;)-->
"Serve Somebody" was another one. Classic statement, "it may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you're gonna have to serve somebody". He doesn't say what that means, or how you'll do that or say you're going to heaven or hell for doing either one . He limits the song to one idea and he just works away at it. On one level a person can think, yeah, no matter who you are you're still answerable for your actions. On another, there's a spiritual ring to it. It's a cool tune.
Some songs take an idea and try to express every single angle of it..."God saved me, I'm blessed, angels rejoice, the sadness is gone, His mercy made me whole", etc. and you get the whole range of what's on the person's heart all at once. One thing Dylan does very well is take one thing, one idea or sentence and then explores it, makes a big diamond out of a little piece of coal. He's good.
-----------
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 14:42.]
[This message was edited by socks on January 06, 2003 at 14:54.]
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Hope R.
As far as the First of May JT song goes...
I remember seeing an interview with him while he was promoting that album. He talked about his dad and how he had a funny poem about the First of May... wish I could remember it, it was cute.
And if he's a Commie, then where does that leave vocal anti-nuke people like Jackson Browne?
It's all a case of private interpretation!!!
My best example is Bruce Springsteen. "Born in the USA" is a song about a young man who survives Viet Nam only, gets home and can't find a job, gets no help from anyone, and basically says that his life has gone nowhere - it's a song about broken American dreams.
That song was used as an anthem for the Reagan re-election campaign in 1984. Springsteen has commented many times that he was furious that the song was used that way. In an interview he said that he felt that Reagan "hijacked" the song and if Reagan and his advisors had bothered to read the lyrics, they never would have used it!
The whole idea that the Beatles, James Taylor or Bruce Springsteen are Communists who write songs to rally people to revolt is nuts.
Someone should start a thread on the various "conspiracy theories" that seemed to seep into HQ's in the late 70's. The "Marxist Minstrals" was mild compared to "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" and all that junk about the World Bank and the Illuminati...
As for me, I'm gonna put on "The Rising" and make dinner.
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socks
Yeah, Hope. Reagan and that Born in the USA thing...Reagan would have been embarrassed I'm sure, if he could have remembered what he said about it later....
This all reeks of the "genuine suspicion" thing that came not too much later, doesn't it?
In Noebel's book, the only way a person for sure isn't a communist is if they've got it stamped on their forehead "Me No Commie" and they've got their Good Citizen card stamped. If a person looks to any kind of alternative solution, approach or philosophy that isn't straight up the flag pole saluting to God and country and apple pie, then they're SUSPECT!
I'm sure some of the people he comments on appreciated the publicity. "Finally, someone sees we're here!"
And again, Pete Seeger. Everyone knows banjos are dangerous tools of the takeover.
Perhaps the greatest conspiracy song of all time...
Louie Louie!
Is the time/space meter needle supposed to be jumping around like that? *tap-tap*...sqwrkltpzfttt@#$%^&!!!!!!.....
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TED Ferrell
And The Beat Goes On
Socks I recall reading the book you just posted about and my first thought back then was hogwash. As I posted in my earlier posts on this thread, since the beginning of popular songs and music in the USA there has always been the headed for hell in a hand basket critics. Even Steven Foster was reported to be a 'darkie lover'.
I have always loved Bob Dylan and his music and compositions. Bob is a musical poet and I used to read his songs like I would poetry. He is a musical genius and his way of writing lyrics was copied by The Beatles and many others. Yes, I believe Dylan's conversion to Christianity was for real, too many of his songs from that time reflected his beliefs at that time. However he did return to his roots Judaism and far as I know he still is there. I used to do one his songs You Gotta Serve Somebody.
In the folk music era there was an attempt by the coomies to gain a foothold in the folk music heyday. During the sixties and early seventies I subscribed to two folk music trade publications Sing Out and Broadside (which I still have copies of). Sing Out had articles about folk music and printed words and music in the magazine, but as time went on their articles became more anti American government and our capitalistic society. Broadside was even worse they urged college students to demonstrate against The Viet Nam War. After a few years of subscribing I grew disgusted with the far left issues and never renewed my subscription. The commies did make a dent within the folk music scene but faded away and went Blowing In The Wind.
Yes, as back then so it is today, critics clamor and wring their hands crying the music of today is causing my kid to commit all kinds of unthinkable things. Let's ban it from the face of the earth. So sorry folks it ain't coming down that way. The youth of today are going to have THEIR music.
Love To All
Ted
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Oakspear
This is such a nice thread. I needed a break from the "Mike Wars"
Listening to a Norah Jones CD that Prochaine sent me....
aaaaahhhhh.....
:D-->
Oakspear
...goin' down to Rosedale, got my rider by my side...and I'm standin' at the crossroads...
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Buck
Hey Socks, thanks alot, that was cool. I appreciate the info, and really, thank you ALL. This really is a cool thread.
And Ted, did you say that you have a kid in a figurative manner, or do you have some kids? I had never heard whether or not you had any kids. And if you do have kids, are they into music?
And Oakspear, that Nora Jones is definitely awsome no? Love that voice. Some women's voices just plain "get me", and hers is one of them Just like Hope R.'s.....
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ChattyKathy
This is some very cool stuff, thanks for letting me read along with you folks.
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TED Ferrell
Buck;
No kids but would have loved to have had a dozen because I dearly love children and think I might have been a pretty good Dad too.
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A la prochaine
Hey everybody,
Thanks for all the input on the book. I don't have much time, but I'll be back.
Ahhhhh, Norah Jones too cool!
:D-->
The only thing I heard about Norah Jones is that she is Ravi Shankar's daughter. Must check that one out.
Ok, since we are talking about Dylan, must mention another name I grew up listening to (via guitar playing brother and that was JOHN PRINE). I saw him on a music special awhile ago.
See Ya.
'til the next time...
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Buck
Oh man! ALP, I LOVE to listen to John Prine. In fact, I have turned my kids onto his music, and they (my two teenagers) love his stuff. My personal favorite is "Hello In There" which rarely fails to jerk a tear from my eyes. My kid's favorite is "Ain't Hurtin Nobody". Yeah, that guy is an amazing lyricist. Chris Kristofferson (he and someone else very famous)went to see John Prine when he was a virtually unknown, and Kristofferson said that John Prine "writes like he is seventy five years old, except that he's still just a young kid". That is a somewhat heavily "paraphrased version" of what K.K. said, but it is close. Somebody correct me if necessary. It's written on one of John Prines' albums. But anyway, K.K. was very impressed, and I think he had a lot to do with boosting John Prine's musical career.
Ya know, I have even used that song "hello in there" in twigs during my days with The Way. The song is essentially about taking the time out of your busy day to take heed of "old folks" whose lives are in their sunset years after they have lived through the common heart breaking situations that seem to befall us poor damned humans. Ya know, this world is a HARD f____ng place sometimes.
So, I would have the words typed out so that no one would miss the words, then I would play the song in Twig and then teach on the Love Of God and how EVERYBODY in this whole confused world needed to hear some kind and comforting words, "so lets be those people who are kind and comforting"...
And ya know, most of the folks in those twigs around the country had never even heard of John Prine, but after that they did, and the point was always well taken. If you don't know the song, then down load it, sit down, and listen to it. It's beautiful. It'll melt ya...
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socks
the 70's. One of my favorite bands was Orleans. John Hall and Lance Hoppen were the guitarists doing nice harmony stuff. John Hall had worked with Seals and Crofts, Bonnie Raitt, lots of people and then bam! Orleans. He wrote a lot of their songs with his then wife Johanna. Here's the lyrics to a song they charted with from their September 73 release, Orleans ll. An all time socks family favorite and an open invitation...
Dance With Me
Dance with me, I want to be your partner.
Can't you see the music is just starting?
Night is falling, and I am falling.
Dance with me.
Fantasy could never be so giving.
I feel free, I hope that you are willing.
Pick your feet up, and kick your feet up.
Dance with me.
Let it lift you off the ground.
Starry eyes, and love is all around us.
I can take you if you want to go.
Dance with me, I want to be your partner.
Can't you see the music is just starting?
Night is falling, and I am falling.
Dance with me.
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ChattyKathy
Hello In There
©John Prine
We had an apartment in the city,
Me and Loretta liked living there.
Well, it'd been years since the kids had grown,
A life of their own left us alone.
John and Linda live in Omaha,
And Joe is somewhere on the road.
We lost Davy in the Korean war,
And I still don't know what for, don't matter anymore.
Chorus:
Ya' know that old trees just grow stronger,
And old rivers grow wilder ev'ry day.
Old people just grow lonesome
Waiting for someone to say, "Hello in there, hello."
Me and Loretta, we don't talk much more,
She sits and stares through the back door screen.
And all the news just repeats itself
Like some forgotten dream that we've both seen.
Someday I'll go and call up Rudy,
We worked together at the factory.
But what could I say if asks "What's new?"
"Nothing, what's with you? Nothing much to do."
Repeat Chorus:
So if you're walking down the street sometime
And spot some hollow ancient eyes,
Please don't just pass 'em by and stare
As if you didn't care, say, "Hello in there, hello."
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A la prochaine
Socks, Wow, 'Dance With Me'! Don't know how I missed that one when I checked the tunes of 1973. What a beautiful song! I read the words and sang the whole tune in my head. What a trip!
Buck, John Prine, there was a song I used to play of his I'm sure. I'll have to get back on that on. Nice words to that song. I used to love introducing 'Secular' music into twig. It was such a nice change!!! And so often, the words in 'secular' music were more heart wrenching and not so packaged as in TWI (IMO). Socks touched on this I believe.
Chatty, you're so quick with things. You always amaze me.
So James Taylor is no commie after all!
:D-->
My gut feeling was that, but it sure put a damper on things after I was told such hog-wash. I have never had the privilege to see JT live, but when I have seen him perform on television, he is so soothing. His presence is so peaceful. His eyes are so piercing. And such a distinctive voice. And he seems so 'unmoved' by all his success. Just wants to make good music. I find that this is the signature of a true musician.
Buck, your song reminded me of another song like John Prine's, it's a little sadder but just as touching. Kathy Mattea had it on her first album. Must hunt it up.
Well, I hate to leave but this world is a tough place to live in sometimes (to paraphrase Buck)and then there is this wonderful thread here on GS.
Oak, you can come by anytime when you need a break from the Mike Wars. We are always playing good music and the coffee/tea is hot too
.
Hi to Ted and Hope too!
Hope, loved your story about going back to the room and blasting the 'White Album'. What a rebel! Good for you! The White Album...
1. Back in the U.S.S.R.
2. Dear Prudence
3. Glass onion
4. Ob-la-di, ob-la-da
5. Wild honey pie
6. The continuing story of bungalow bill
7. While my guitar gently weeps
8. Happiness is a warm gun
9. Martha my dear
10. I'm so tired
11. Blackbird
12. Piggies
13. Rocky racoon
14. Don't pass me by
15. Why don't we do it in the road
16. I will
17. Julia
18. Birthday
19. Yer blues
20. Mother natures sun
21. Everybody's got something to hide exept for me and my monkey
22. Sexy sadie
23. Helter skelter
24. Long,long,long
25. Revolution 1
26. Honey pie
27. Savoy truffle
28. Cry baby cry
29. Revolution 9
30. Good
(This album released in 1968 and most of the songs have endured the test of time.)
I love Sarah McLaughlin's remake of 'Blackbird'.
Man we could post for days on these songs alone!
See Ya!
'til the next time...
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ChattyKathy
WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS
GEORGE HARRISON
I LOOK AT YOU ALL, SEE THE LOVE THERE THAT'S SLEEPING,
WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS.
I LOOK AT THE FLOOR AND I SEE IT NEEDS SWEEPING;
STILL MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS.
I DON'T KNOW WHY NOBODY TOLD YOU
HOW TO UNFOLD YOUR LOVE,
I DON'T KNOW HOW SOMEONE CONTROLLED YOU,
THEY BOUGHT AND SOLD YOU.
I LOOK AT THE WORLD AND I NOTICE IT'S TURNING,
WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS.
WITH EV'RY MISTAKE WE MUST SURELY BE LEARNING;
STILL MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS.
WELL...
I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WERE DIVERTED,
YOU WERE PERVERTED TOO.
I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU WERE INVERTED,
NO ONE ALERTED YOU.
I LOOK AT YOU ALL, SEE THE LOVE THERE THAT'S SLEEPING,
WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS.
LOOK, LOOK AT YOU ALL...
STILL MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS.
OH, OH -
OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH, OH,
OH, OH - OH, OH - OH, OH.
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH,
YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, OH! OOH -
A la prochaine,
Was I quick enough?
:P--> 
;)-->
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