Yeah, one per; I didn't see that they were teaching that we all sharing the same "holy spirit", but that God created a special "gift" just for each of us.
Yeah, as I remember it we each got our own little holy spirit (custom-tailored I assume) when we spoke the magic words.
Then after that we were all at "revelation central", cuz God could now "teach his creation in you - which is now your spirit - and then your spirit teaches your mind".
Geeze Pete, how many years has it been and I can still rattle off this crap. Maybe I should save up for a lobotomy?
Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Then you have the factor of "receiving the gift of holy spirit" to deal with.
What does that mean? Of course it's a gift. And I believe it is not separate from God.
"Receiving".....from where? From within or from without. It takes more then a concordance to see it imo.
Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Now -- that makes me wonder about the Old Testament, where the spirit got taken off one person, and given to another. And when there were many prophets, were there many spirits *upon them* too, or just one? Am betting docvic, and twi would say that it was just one then, though the story changes once the Acts' account of Pentecost is reached.
Of course -- now it is *spirit within*, rather than *upon* -- so maybe that would qualify the twi line of thought. And then there is the spirit that "died" when Adam sinned (that was restored on the day of Pentecost) -- but that raises another question.
Did Adam and Eve have their own personal spirit, or did they share one? ;)-->
I've got to get to bed, but this is an interesting discussion. Before we make come to any conclusions, we'd probably want to amke sure we take off our Way-colored glasses
Did Wierwille's differentiation of spirit within and spirit upon really line up with what the bible said? If so, was it the only valid way to look at it? Is the view that it was spirit that died in Adam and Eve the correct one?
I'm not taking one position or another, since I haven't had time to "work" it yet, just cautioning against making assumptions rooted in waybrain. :D-->
2 Corinthians3:14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Good post CM. Lots of food for thought there. By the way, there's nothing in Genesis that supports VP's assertion that there was spirit upon Adam that died when he disobeyed. That's a part of VP's elaborate contstruction of the chasm between man and God. In my opinion, it's an ssumption that is contradicted by Scripture.
Genesis simply says that God told them that in the day they ate of the tree they would surely die. They ate, they got reprimnanded and expelled from the garden, and died hundreds of years later. VP's teaching about spirit upon them on a condition was a construction designed--imho--to explain this apparent contradiction. He added it to Genesis chapter one so he could take it away in Genesis chapter three.
Did Wierwille's differentiation of spirit within and spirit upon really line up with what the bible said? If so, was it the only valid way to look at it? Is the view that it was spirit that died in Adam and Eve the correct one?
I find the *spirit upon*, and the *spirit within* a plausible way of thinking -- since *spirit within* is never taken away in the New Testament, the way it was in the Old. Not saying it makes docvic right, but just saying it is something to think about.
And (with my *way-colored glasses* on) -- I have always thought that Adam and Eve each had their own *spirit*, but now I am not so sure.
and Oak -- you said:
quote:
Is the view that it was spirit that died in Adam and Eve the correct one?
I know a Messianic pastor who preaches that "A thousand years are as one day with the Lord" -- so he maintains that Adam died in THE DAY (ie -- less than 1,000 years old) physically, and not spiritually.
I'm getting ready to pull a quarter out of my pocket, flip it, and call it in the air -- heads or tails!! :D-->
I know a Messianic pastor who preaches that "A thousand years are as one day with the Lord" -- so he maintains that Adam died in THE DAY (ie -- less than 1,000 years old) physically, and not spiritually.
That's my take on it as well. After all, if Adam hadn't eaten that fruit, wouldn't he still be kickin' round on this planet somewhere?
In Ephesians it says that Jesus accomplished the following:
Eph. 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Jew and Gentile, through Jesus the Christ, both have access BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.
That kinda negates the *indiviudal* spirits idea to me as taught ala twi.
Jerry, you're right. Another case of VPW/TWI complicating things that didn't need complication.
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TheInvisibleDan
I recall one per customer.
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Oakspear
Yeah, one per; I didn't see that they were teaching that we all sharing the same "holy spirit", but that God created a special "gift" just for each of us.
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dmiller
I remember the same. The Giver was one entity, but the gifts were many and varied.
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George Aar
Yeah, as I remember it we each got our own little holy spirit (custom-tailored I assume) when we spoke the magic words.
Then after that we were all at "revelation central", cuz God could now "teach his creation in you - which is now your spirit - and then your spirit teaches your mind".
Geeze Pete, how many years has it been and I can still rattle off this crap. Maybe I should save up for a lobotomy?
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Jbarrax
One per customer, manifested according to the will and believing of the individual.
Oshanta Malakasita.
JerryB :-)
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lindyhopper
Watch your language Jerry there are kids present.
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CM
Yeah.....
1 per customer....
Which is in opposition to-
Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Then you have the factor of "receiving the gift of holy spirit" to deal with.
What does that mean? Of course it's a gift. And I believe it is not separate from God.
"Receiving".....from where? From within or from without. It takes more then a concordance to see it imo.
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TheEvan
re the nomenclature and all it conjures up: "gift of (lowercase) (no 'the") holy spirit".
Gag me with a maggot!
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CM
i don't buy the upper/lower case doctrine either
either it's 1 Spirit or it's not...
ephesians says one-1
and not one plus one plus one
1 period.
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CM
Just to be clear...
If I say Spirit or spirit, it's that one and selfsame Spirit I'm talking about.
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Steve Lortz
Not to slight anybody else, but George, I love the perspective you contribute here!
Love,
Steve
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dmiller
Now -- that makes me wonder about the Old Testament, where the spirit got taken off one person, and given to another. And when there were many prophets, were there many spirits *upon them* too, or just one? Am betting docvic, and twi would say that it was just one then, though the story changes once the Acts' account of Pentecost is reached.
Of course -- now it is *spirit within*, rather than *upon* -- so maybe that would qualify the twi line of thought. And then there is the spirit that "died" when Adam sinned (that was restored on the day of Pentecost) -- but that raises another question.
Did Adam and Eve have their own personal spirit, or did they share one?
;)-->
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lindyhopper
A gift seperate from God?
How can anything be seperate from an omni-present God?
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Oakspear
I've got to get to bed, but this is an interesting discussion. Before we make come to any conclusions, we'd probably want to amke sure we take off our Way-colored glasses
Did Wierwille's differentiation of spirit within and spirit upon really line up with what the bible said? If so, was it the only valid way to look at it? Is the view that it was spirit that died in Adam and Eve the correct one?
I'm not taking one position or another, since I haven't had time to "work" it yet, just cautioning against making assumptions rooted in waybrain.
:D-->
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Greek2me
Oak, Good advice.
No. Like most of what VPW taught, I would disagree with his conclusions regarding the giver and the gift, as he called them.
Capitl H and small h... damn he must've had a belly full of gnats... 'cause he sure strained at enough of them.
One body, One Spirit, One hope,
One Lord, One faith, One baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
And since he doesn't change, it must mean that it's been that way since the beginning.
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CM
Good point, Greek2me, God does not change.
So what was the point of what Jesus accomplished?
Many things...
The vail of the temple was rent in twain...
The temple-not made with hands.
The mind.
The vail was upon the heart.
The holy of holies open to those looking for it.
2 Corinthians3:14But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
So what did happen to the first Adam?
Death of what? He did actually die...
the second one did too...
but is that the meaning?
The first did not eat of the tree of life.
"Turn to the Lord" it says...
Before Abraham-I was...said Jesus the Christ.
Spirit upon, in, in the spirit...
Has always been there...waiting...willing...
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Bob
Holy Spirit is neither Holy or Spirit.
Discuss amongst yourselves...
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Raf
Not only that, but Bob doesn't really bob. He sinks, or he swims, just like the rest of us.
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Bob
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Jbarrax
Good post CM. Lots of food for thought there. By the way, there's nothing in Genesis that supports VP's assertion that there was spirit upon Adam that died when he disobeyed. That's a part of VP's elaborate contstruction of the chasm between man and God. In my opinion, it's an ssumption that is contradicted by Scripture.
Genesis simply says that God told them that in the day they ate of the tree they would surely die. They ate, they got reprimnanded and expelled from the garden, and died hundreds of years later. VP's teaching about spirit upon them on a condition was a construction designed--imho--to explain this apparent contradiction. He added it to Genesis chapter one so he could take it away in Genesis chapter three.
Peace
JerryB
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dmiller
heh heh - I know some liberal folks who have bumper stickers that say:
The Moral Majority Is Neither.
(as if they are qualified to judge.)
;)-->
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dmiller
I find the *spirit upon*, and the *spirit within* a plausible way of thinking -- since *spirit within* is never taken away in the New Testament, the way it was in the Old. Not saying it makes docvic right, but just saying it is something to think about.
And (with my *way-colored glasses* on) -- I have always thought that Adam and Eve each had their own *spirit*, but now I am not so sure.
and Oak -- you said:
I know a Messianic pastor who preaches that "A thousand years are as one day with the Lord" -- so he maintains that Adam died in THE DAY (ie -- less than 1,000 years old) physically, and not spiritually.
I'm getting ready to pull a quarter out of my pocket, flip it, and call it in the air -- heads or tails!!
:D-->
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Greek2me
That's my take on it as well. After all, if Adam hadn't eaten that fruit, wouldn't he still be kickin' round on this planet somewhere?
In Ephesians it says that Jesus accomplished the following:
Eph. 2:18
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Jew and Gentile, through Jesus the Christ, both have access BY ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.
That kinda negates the *indiviudal* spirits idea to me as taught ala twi.
Jerry, you're right. Another case of VPW/TWI complicating things that didn't need complication.
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CM
Appeciate that JB...
Yes....faith as a grain of mustard seed.
The wall has been broken down between God and man.
Man and all his self....
God, there now, as always, within...
Above all, through all and in you all...
Loosing yourself to find it...
Love energizes faith...
Looking beyond ourselves, our knowledge...
A different look-a different perspective...
Yet there remains intact ourselves, our loves..
Christ who is our life...
Built upon the word of life in our souls.
As some one told me once-
Take your faith and smash it against the wall
and see what sticks.
God is love...it is love that gets us there.
Faith...just a little is all it takes...
Dear Lord, that's about all I can come up with...
Take me by the hand and lead me to it.
One God, One Spirit, One Lord, One Faith, One
Baptism, One Father. Not addition-but One.
Many with different backgrounds and upbringing have found it.
Narrow is the road, so we can't get too big
to enter. But wide is the love...
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