I promised to leave, but keep getting dragged back in.
Yes, saying “which god?” is a Wayism, but a good one. We should ask ourselves that same question more often.
With Exy, it’s not so obvious which God or god told her that.
She didn’t have to chime in with that comment of hers, but it’s obvious to many here that she loves her storms and has built an entire persona around them. It COULD have been the True God Who told her that because He sees she is past the point of coming back to PFAL and benefiting from the good stuff. He may have told her that because He has to make alternate, but less-than-His-best, plans to bless the rest of her life.
She didn’t have to jump in the middle of what we were saying, but she wanted to stir up your storms, so I gave her a bit of her own “medicine.” Sooner or later all you people will figure it out that you can’t mess with me when I’m ministering. I’m a solid rock and anyone who rams me head-long will get a headache.
I really must be going now, so you all can decide if you want storms or calm.
quote:....but it’s obvious to many here that she loves her storms and has built an entire persona around them.
that was not very nice. you could have at least said it's obvious to YOU instead of "many people" unless you and many people here talk about my storms and persona and agree.
plus i did not know about your ministering deal.
thanks for the medicine mike
oh, and as far as my wanting to stir up CW's storms.... nope never
...oh, and as far as my wanting to stir up CW's storms.... nope never
I know this, {{{{{ExC}}}}}. You're one of the folks who help my storms to calm. I hope you know this...because if you don't, I need to say so more often.
And...
Mike can only speak for Mike. I don't know anybody here who has given him permission to speak for them.
You are very loved, sister ExC.
PS...there's nothing between me and Mike besides what you see here...so don't be fooled...ok? {{{{{ExC}}}}}
What religion or belief is it that you subscribe to? It's surely not the one where a person is to 'put on the mind of Christ' or the one where a person would ask themselves 'what would Jesus do?'... or the one that follows the 'let him who is without sin among us cast the first stone'...
where the he11 do you come off presuming to 'know' what another feels? you are one sick ************ to presume that someone 'loves' the misery, heartache and anguish they've endured... and YOU should never pretend to 'know' what anyone thinks... you're so far removed from the rest of us in your thinking I don't know how you could ever presume to know what 'we' think or feel...
shame on you.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
1. Eve was in the transgression because she was deceived when she ate the fruit, Adam wasn't cause he just went ahead and followed his lady into the soup. Therefore being deceived into doing wrong is worse then knowing it is wrong and doing it especially when you can blame the woman.
2.The devil got the title deed to the earth when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. Why didn't he just get the GArden of Eden only?
I mean, all Adam had control of was the Garden of Eden....Adam never had control over the whole earth and yet when he sinned, somehow all of earth went under the control of the devil.
I think someone should have hired a better lawyer to fight the grand daddy clauses in that transfer of property.
And why did it go to the devil? How did he fit into it? Why didn't the control and ownership go back to God who originally owned the earth?
3. Why did God set up Adam and Eve to sin? Don't tell me free will and God wanted someone to truly love him.
All God had to do for freewill is say, "Stay in the Garden." If man left the garden, it would have been free will and an indicator that he didn't want to love God.
Putting a tree up and saying you can't eat it is just entrapment and what person wouldn't have been tempted?
4. Why are women always blamed for bringing evil into the world? Pandora and her freakin box spilled evil into the world and Eve and her damn fruit diet. Who writes this stuff anyway?
5. Why does God hold people responsible for stuff they didn't do? Oh yes he does, original sin which I think the doctrine did originate with Paul.. Because Adam sinned, the rest of us are doomed to insanity, evil, disease, death....not fair....
And speaking of thou shalt surely die..if that was the case, then why were they expelled from the garden BEFORE they could eat of the tree of life?????
Forget what number we're on...but if the world and us were redeemed back from the devil... why was he referred to as the god of this world in Corinthians..should he be referred to as the former landlord who got foreclosed on instead of one being in charge? And if the earth is redeemed back...why the obeyance of that being shown instead of good people being killed, dying, suffering..???? Now all the subclauses come in..well because you don't believe, a cow believes better than you, you are possessed, your mother is possessed, all excuses to show that we are more powerful than the all powerful redemption
Why? When I bought property, I set up housekeeping immediately...I didn't wait. A short time in the garden and centuries of hell afterwards...
Hey how about the famous quote from Phillipians about forgetting those things left behind and reaching for those things that are ahead...used whenever we needed to forget the past..a mantra...YET in context..Paul wasn't putting bad memories to rest...he was putting GOOD memories of how good his life was, how he had it all...high station in life, everything he needed and how he just counted that to be cowmanure compared to having the gosepl of Christ without all the good things...a little out of context was the way we used it....
We preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus our Lord..but dang it, don't forget your big wow nametag to let the whole town know who you are and tell them about PFAL. Is PFAL a code word for Jesus?
How about ministers being servants and if you can't wash feet and be least of all...you're not a leader according to the gospel because you're supposed to minister TO others and not be ministered to....please let's have a show of hands on how many of you served by cleaning leadership houses, watched their children, did their lawns and gardens, fixed their cars, fetched them coffee mints and cloves...made sure you had their favorite coffee and creamer and god forbid you ever eat before them?? all those who experienced that please line up to the left....yeah well can't be a good leader if you can't be a good follower mantra replaced the saying of being least if you wanted to lead...
okay okay how sane was it to scorn the wife of Job who lost all her children in one day...her living, her houses, her food? Why did TWI see nothing but unbelief in her words of curse god and die rather then the lament of a broken hearted women who lost all those she loved and ended up with a bumpy infected husband who sat in a pile of whatever he was in??? No believing..we were told, she wasn't faithful. Yeah, well guess what,neither would I be either and I bet I would have something less than joyous to say after experiencing all that.
But then how sane is the story of Job being pulled apart by God's arch enemy just to see if he would scream uncle and lose his faith. Lovely. Let me make a long story short, I will squeal like a stuck pig if that happened to me, so don't bother doing it to me.
[This message was edited by Mandii on February 05, 2004 at 17:36.]
If believing is an universal law that works for saint and sinner alike, then why do we need God, PFAL, VP, WOW, Corps, and stupid twigs????
If we were ambassadors for Christ then why was the main tool, main outreach tool of TWI PFAL? I mean, how much of it centered on the life of Christ, prophecies regarding his birth, his life, his ministry...and cruxcifion and ressurection?
And if the devil was kicked out out heaven and from God's presence like we were all taught when he rebelled against God wanting to be God and waged a war, 1/3 of the angels siding with him, then how is it that the devil was able to enter the presence of the Lord in the book of Job to present himself before God with the other angels if kicked out from
God's presence and how did Jesus see the devil fall from from the skies like a star in the gospels?
I too liked Mandii's questions and want to get to work with them soon. Check your listings for a new thread premiering soon on a computer screen near you.
Ex 10 yep, you are right. :)--> eknepho is a short study, used only once in the New Testament. --> (I Cor. 15: 34)
But it is used another 5 times in the Old Testament, and the relation between the two, is awake to sobriety from drunkeness from wine, or awake to sobriety of thinking, caused by wrong doctrine. :D-->
I am posting this in the friendliest tone, but I don't want answers. I am not looking for any answers as I posted these posts to show that what "I" once accepted as 'answers' were merely, 'to me' broken logic. I don't accept and cannot accept statements such as 'it's spiritual,' which losely translates into "I don't know the answer but will pretend it's too over your head to explain" or that we will know it 'over there,' or 'take it by faith,' or anything of that sort.
Now, how can I rejoice as others who have no hope of not seeing their loved ones again (Thessalonians) if I won't recognize my family at the supposed return and be able to live with them?
It's really the epitome of self-righteousness to have all of the answers, isn't it? Worse, though, is to be around someone that thinks they have all of the answers. Remember when we used to be like that? ::shudder::
Part of what I like so much about getting older is finding out just how little I know. Each day is a new day, a new opportunity, a new chance to learn something. It's like being a kid again and each morning is christmas morning...there's always a few presents yet unopened.
I've mentioned the film series "Angels in America". There is a scene where the main character is in "heaven" arguing with the principality angels. Those angels put forth to him that he should be the prophet that brings to humanity the "Tome of Immobility" as a response to the AIDS epidemic. None of the angels had been able to find an answer, so they were proposing that humanity stop and die off so that things could start all over again.
So this guy (Prior is his name) argues that humanity will not stand still...that moving forward is what humanity does. Prior tells them that even with all of the sickness, all of the death, all of the pain, humans still choose life and will not be talked out of it. At one point he tells the angels, "And if He ever does show up again, sue the b*stard....He abandoned us!"
It is gobbledgook of the worst kind trying to make life fit into the logic of "this life is nothing....do everything hoping for the next life".
That kind of mentality is what gives people the idea that they have license in this life to be jacka$$es towards everybody. It is the mentality that keeps people impoverished and enslaved. It is the mentality that keeps people ill. Everything put aside for the "next life". Try taking that mentality to a financial institution or a doctor or a future spouse or a child...they will all see the insanity.
It's one thing to hope there's more...it's quite another to live as if what is here and now is nothing.
Really, when you think about it, it's the coward's way out. "This life is nothing, so I don't have to try to make it anything."
And really, when you think about it, the idea that the only choices are follow and die with a hope or don't follow and die without a hope...well, that's just stupid, imo. The bottom line is that there's no way to know for sure without first leaving this life.
The conviction of the individual that his or her thoughts, words, and actions, may in some manner cause or prevent outcomes in a way that defies the normal laws of cause and effect.
A conviction that thinking equates with doing. Occurs in dreams in children, in primitive peoples, and in patients under a variety of conditions. Characterized by lack of realistic relationship between cause and effect.
As I recently said in a conversation about how I've learned to take back my life, "I had to let go of magical thinking. I had to replace magical thinking with actual work...and trust that if there is magic, it's on our side."
To me, thinking that there's someone besides me in control of what happens in my life is the same as absolving me of all responsibility. It's the easy way out...until I find myself all alone and with nothing but a flawed satisfaction that I "really nailed the devil" to show for my life.
A bit late but I wanted to agree with mandii...the job story always bugged me...yeah sure job got his stuff restored...too bad so sad about the kiddoes...long as he got some more right??? WRONG!! Any real parent knows...you cannot replace the loss of one (or more as in jobs senario) child with the accumulation of others...it just isn`t like getting more and better *stuff* as a reward for your faithfullness.
Here is something that I have come across recently...
quote:
Mysticism requires the notion of the unknowable, which is revealed to some and withheld from others; this divides men into those who feel guilt and those who cash in on it. The two groups are interchangeable, according to circumstances. When being judged, a mystic cries: "I couldn't help it!" When judging others, he declares: "You can't know, but I can."
Taken from Volum IV The Ayn Rand Lexicon, Objectivism from A to Z, page 324.
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Mike
CW,
I promised to leave, but keep getting dragged back in.
Yes, saying “which god?” is a Wayism, but a good one. We should ask ourselves that same question more often.
With Exy, it’s not so obvious which God or god told her that.
She didn’t have to chime in with that comment of hers, but it’s obvious to many here that she loves her storms and has built an entire persona around them. It COULD have been the True God Who told her that because He sees she is past the point of coming back to PFAL and benefiting from the good stuff. He may have told her that because He has to make alternate, but less-than-His-best, plans to bless the rest of her life.
She didn’t have to jump in the middle of what we were saying, but she wanted to stir up your storms, so I gave her a bit of her own “medicine.” Sooner or later all you people will figure it out that you can’t mess with me when I’m ministering. I’m a solid rock and anyone who rams me head-long will get a headache.
I really must be going now, so you all can decide if you want storms or calm.
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CoolWaters
Mike, being kind is not dependant upon who is kind to you.
BTW...
This is a public forum. As long as we're posting here instead of in PT or via email, anybody can and will read and jump in.
?????????????
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:22.]
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excathedra
plus i did not know about your ministering deal.
thanks for the medicine mike
oh, and as far as my wanting to stir up CW's storms.... nope never
?
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CoolWaters
I know this, {{{{{ExC}}}}}. You're one of the folks who help my storms to calm. I hope you know this...because if you don't, I need to say so more often.
And...
Mike can only speak for Mike. I don't know anybody here who has given him permission to speak for them.
You are very loved, sister ExC.
PS...there's nothing between me and Mike besides what you see here...so don't be fooled...ok? {{{{{ExC}}}}}
?????????????
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excathedra
thank you CW and you don't have to say anything more often....
(((((((you too, dearest)))))))
?
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Tom Strange
Mike,
Nobody that visits these forums has anywhere near the agenda you do.
"Ministering"... that word can be interpreted a number of ways.
You need to go back to PLAF... you're missing some of the main points in your walk.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Zixar
I really should go to grad school. I could wring a doctorate in abnormal psychology on a case study of Mike alone...
To every question,
Turn, turn, turn,
Cir-cu-lar reason,
Turn, turn, turn...
Aaaand chaaaange, when con-fron-ted, all def-i-ni-tions!
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Tom Strange
Mike... oh yeah, another thing...
What religion or belief is it that you subscribe to? It's surely not the one where a person is to 'put on the mind of Christ' or the one where a person would ask themselves 'what would Jesus do?'... or the one that follows the 'let him who is without sin among us cast the first stone'...
where the he11 do you come off presuming to 'know' what another feels? you are one sick ************ to presume that someone 'loves' the misery, heartache and anguish they've endured... and YOU should never pretend to 'know' what anyone thinks... you're so far removed from the rest of us in your thinking I don't know how you could ever presume to know what 'we' think or feel...
shame on you.
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Mandii
broken logic
1. Eve was in the transgression because she was deceived when she ate the fruit, Adam wasn't cause he just went ahead and followed his lady into the soup. Therefore being deceived into doing wrong is worse then knowing it is wrong and doing it especially when you can blame the woman.
2.The devil got the title deed to the earth when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. Why didn't he just get the GArden of Eden only?
I mean, all Adam had control of was the Garden of Eden....Adam never had control over the whole earth and yet when he sinned, somehow all of earth went under the control of the devil.
I think someone should have hired a better lawyer to fight the grand daddy clauses in that transfer of property.
And why did it go to the devil? How did he fit into it? Why didn't the control and ownership go back to God who originally owned the earth?
3. Why did God set up Adam and Eve to sin? Don't tell me free will and God wanted someone to truly love him.
All God had to do for freewill is say, "Stay in the Garden." If man left the garden, it would have been free will and an indicator that he didn't want to love God.
Putting a tree up and saying you can't eat it is just entrapment and what person wouldn't have been tempted?
4. Why are women always blamed for bringing evil into the world? Pandora and her freakin box spilled evil into the world and Eve and her damn fruit diet. Who writes this stuff anyway?
5. Why does God hold people responsible for stuff they didn't do? Oh yes he does, original sin which I think the doctrine did originate with Paul.. Because Adam sinned, the rest of us are doomed to insanity, evil, disease, death....not fair....
And speaking of thou shalt surely die..if that was the case, then why were they expelled from the garden BEFORE they could eat of the tree of life?????
Forget what number we're on...but if the world and us were redeemed back from the devil... why was he referred to as the god of this world in Corinthians..should he be referred to as the former landlord who got foreclosed on instead of one being in charge? And if the earth is redeemed back...why the obeyance of that being shown instead of good people being killed, dying, suffering..???? Now all the subclauses come in..well because you don't believe, a cow believes better than you, you are possessed, your mother is possessed, all excuses to show that we are more powerful than the all powerful redemption
Why? When I bought property, I set up housekeeping immediately...I didn't wait. A short time in the garden and centuries of hell afterwards...
Hey how about the famous quote from Phillipians about forgetting those things left behind and reaching for those things that are ahead...used whenever we needed to forget the past..a mantra...YET in context..Paul wasn't putting bad memories to rest...he was putting GOOD memories of how good his life was, how he had it all...high station in life, everything he needed and how he just counted that to be cowmanure compared to having the gosepl of Christ without all the good things...a little out of context was the way we used it....
We preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus our Lord..but dang it, don't forget your big wow nametag to let the whole town know who you are and tell them about PFAL. Is PFAL a code word for Jesus?
How about ministers being servants and if you can't wash feet and be least of all...you're not a leader according to the gospel because you're supposed to minister TO others and not be ministered to....please let's have a show of hands on how many of you served by cleaning leadership houses, watched their children, did their lawns and gardens, fixed their cars, fetched them coffee mints and cloves...made sure you had their favorite coffee and creamer and god forbid you ever eat before them?? all those who experienced that please line up to the left....yeah well can't be a good leader if you can't be a good follower mantra replaced the saying of being least if you wanted to lead...
okay okay how sane was it to scorn the wife of Job who lost all her children in one day...her living, her houses, her food? Why did TWI see nothing but unbelief in her words of curse god and die rather then the lament of a broken hearted women who lost all those she loved and ended up with a bumpy infected husband who sat in a pile of whatever he was in??? No believing..we were told, she wasn't faithful. Yeah, well guess what,neither would I be either and I bet I would have something less than joyous to say after experiencing all that.
But then how sane is the story of Job being pulled apart by God's arch enemy just to see if he would scream uncle and lose his faith. Lovely. Let me make a long story short, I will squeal like a stuck pig if that happened to me, so don't bother doing it to me.
[This message was edited by Mandii on February 05, 2004 at 17:36.]
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Mandii
If believing is an universal law that works for saint and sinner alike, then why do we need God, PFAL, VP, WOW, Corps, and stupid twigs????
If we were ambassadors for Christ then why was the main tool, main outreach tool of TWI PFAL? I mean, how much of it centered on the life of Christ, prophecies regarding his birth, his life, his ministry...and cruxcifion and ressurection?
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Mandii
And if the devil was kicked out out heaven and from God's presence like we were all taught when he rebelled against God wanting to be God and waged a war, 1/3 of the angels siding with him, then how is it that the devil was able to enter the presence of the Lord in the book of Job to present himself before God with the other angels if kicked out from
God's presence and how did Jesus see the devil fall from from the skies like a star in the gospels?
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Abigail
Wow, Mandii. Those have got to be some of the best posts I've ever read at the ol' cafe.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Trefor Heywood
With all that logic Mandii must be a Vulcan!
Live long and prosper!
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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Mike
I too liked Mandii's questions and want to get to work with them soon. Check your listings for a new thread premiering soon on a computer screen near you.
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dmiller
Ex 10 yep, you are right.
:)--> eknepho is a short study, used only once in the New Testament. 
--> (I Cor. 15: 34)
But it is used another 5 times in the Old Testament, and the relation between the two, is awake to sobriety from drunkeness from wine,
or awake to sobriety of thinking, caused by wrong doctrine. 
:D-->
Either way, it is short, but fun to look at
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Mandii
I am posting this in the friendliest tone, but I don't want answers. I am not looking for any answers as I posted these posts to show that what "I" once accepted as 'answers' were merely, 'to me' broken logic. I don't accept and cannot accept statements such as 'it's spiritual,' which losely translates into "I don't know the answer but will pretend it's too over your head to explain" or that we will know it 'over there,' or 'take it by faith,' or anything of that sort.
Now, how can I rejoice as others who have no hope of not seeing their loved ones again (Thessalonians) if I won't recognize my family at the supposed return and be able to live with them?
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CoolWaters
Mandii,
I hear ya, girl!
It's really the epitome of self-righteousness to have all of the answers, isn't it? Worse, though, is to be around someone that thinks they have all of the answers. Remember when we used to be like that? ::shudder::
Part of what I like so much about getting older is finding out just how little I know. Each day is a new day, a new opportunity, a new chance to learn something. It's like being a kid again and each morning is christmas morning...there's always a few presents yet unopened.
I've mentioned the film series "Angels in America". There is a scene where the main character is in "heaven" arguing with the principality angels. Those angels put forth to him that he should be the prophet that brings to humanity the "Tome of Immobility" as a response to the AIDS epidemic. None of the angels had been able to find an answer, so they were proposing that humanity stop and die off so that things could start all over again.
So this guy (Prior is his name) argues that humanity will not stand still...that moving forward is what humanity does. Prior tells them that even with all of the sickness, all of the death, all of the pain, humans still choose life and will not be talked out of it. At one point he tells the angels, "And if He ever does show up again, sue the b*stard....He abandoned us!"
It is gobbledgook of the worst kind trying to make life fit into the logic of "this life is nothing....do everything hoping for the next life".
That kind of mentality is what gives people the idea that they have license in this life to be jacka$$es towards everybody. It is the mentality that keeps people impoverished and enslaved. It is the mentality that keeps people ill. Everything put aside for the "next life". Try taking that mentality to a financial institution or a doctor or a future spouse or a child...they will all see the insanity.
It's one thing to hope there's more...it's quite another to live as if what is here and now is nothing.
Really, when you think about it, it's the coward's way out. "This life is nothing, so I don't have to try to make it anything."
And really, when you think about it, the idea that the only choices are follow and die with a hope or don't follow and die without a hope...well, that's just stupid, imo. The bottom line is that there's no way to know for sure without first leaving this life.
Have you ever looked into "magical thinking"? Taken from http://www.webref.org/psychology/m/magical_thinking.htm
As I recently said in a conversation about how I've learned to take back my life, "I had to let go of magical thinking. I had to replace magical thinking with actual work...and trust that if there is magic, it's on our side."
To me, thinking that there's someone besides me in control of what happens in my life is the same as absolving me of all responsibility. It's the easy way out...until I find myself all alone and with nothing but a flawed satisfaction that I "really nailed the devil" to show for my life.
?????????????
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rascal
A bit late but I wanted to agree with mandii...the job story always bugged me...yeah sure job got his stuff restored...too bad so sad about the kiddoes...long as he got some more right??? WRONG!! Any real parent knows...you cannot replace the loss of one (or more as in jobs senario) child with the accumulation of others...it just isn`t like getting more and better *stuff* as a reward for your faithfullness.
God doesn`t work that way...
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karmicdebt
CW,
Excellent post! Thanks...
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CoolWaters
rascal,
I have always been bugged by the Job story...to the point that I just went ape and got mad.
*******
karmicdebt,
Why thank you!
:D-->
?????????????
Edited by CoolWaters for taste.
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 06, 2004 at 14:22.]
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ex10
Yeah, dmiller. My paper was on I Cor. 15:34. Love that verse. Funny how it seems so appropo now.
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excathedra
you are the coolest
?
[This message was edited by excathedra on February 06, 2004 at 15:50.]
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CoolWaters
?????????????
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CoolWaters
Here is something that I have come across recently...
Taken from Volum IV The Ayn Rand Lexicon, Objectivism from A to Z, page 324.
?????????????
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