Puhleaze! Mr. Wierwille's "accomplishments" will be forgotten sooner than Billy Sunday's, Jim Bakker's, or Peter Popoff's.
He wasn't even that good of a conman. His one great skill was that he could pick his audience well. It took him a while to perfect the ability, but once he did, idealistic, young, vulnerable, inexperienced kids were his target audience.
Garner their attention by attacking evil, strawman, "establishment" enemies of his own making (the churches, religion, society in general), and setting up an "us and them" mentality so as to draw his audience into his fold ("if nobody in the world loves you, you will know that I have died").
That's why folks with a little academic training or just life experience were usually not easy prey for Wierwille's schtick. It was too easy to see through for all but the truly naive and needy.
And if someone still clings to the Vicster's B.S. after having finally gotten a little experience and maybe some education, I dunno, but personally I think there must be some larger mental issues going on. He was just too transparent of a huckster and egomaniac...
Oldies did not use quote marks so he is technically ok. But it is still a misreprestation of my words. Don't be too concerned, I am kind of used to it from him. You say "much", he hears "most". You say "some" he hears "all". Go figure..
Oldies, what's up with that ?
quote:VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?
No, it would not. That is very poor reasoning and I am sure you don't believe it anyway, so it ammounts to no more that rhetoric.
But, if for example VPW was in error on "Four Crucified" then Bullinger would be too since he got that from Bullinger. However, this does not make Bullinger himself "eroneous" as you suggested nor does it make him self-serving. It just makes him wrong.
But take VPW's teaching on tithing. He stress grace and fulfilling of the Law in almost all he taughts - except in those areas where he benefited - like tithing. VPW argued that "if they could give XX percent under the Law, then how much more shall we give under Grace?". What a crock! Why didn't he use this same kind of argument concerning blood sacrifice or any other parts of the Law? Because it did not line the pockets of the ministry and did not warm his bed -- that's why. And "if" VPW stole this teaching from someone else then I would lay odds that they were self-serving also - Or just blind followers parroting what they were taught.
Oldies, you can twist and turn and misrepreset what folks say all you want, but it changes nothing - nothing at all.
What the Hay,
quote:WPW's contribution was simply: The Word of God is The Will of God, and that the bible is the revealed Word and Will of God.
I believe his contribution will be carried into history by those in whose lives it made a real positive difference. Whether or not it made a positive difference in your life or not I can't say, only you can.
Kinda got to chuckle at that... sorry.
First, Wierwille did not not even come to a historical contribution concerning the Bible (scripture PFAL, p128} being the "Word of God". Not even close.
However, he may have personally coined the little cliche "The Word of God is the will of God". But is it really? Many little catch phrases and cliches like this sound real good have an element of truth, but are many times overly simplistic - which certainly is the case with this one. The will of God goes far beyond what is written in scripture -- especially to the individual seeking specific direction.
VPW's take on scripture, among other things, led a lot of folks to exalt the ink on the paper far beyond what God intended (Bible Worship?) and to ignore or gloss over the guidance and teaching to be had from the Holy Spirit and from a relationship with the living Word of God, which is Jesus Christ.
Certainly the Bible can be an aid in seeking and understanding God's will. But to say that God's Word (scripture) "IS" the will of God - is pretty eroneous if you really think about it.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
You wrote: “ Still not the same comparison, I'm afraid. Whose life was a better example of the ideals of Christianity: the Apostle Paul (post-Damascus) or VPW...”
Again, you forget the record as you shoot from the hip. Dr said, wrote, and chiseled “I wish I were the man I know to be.”
In Dr's second to last published tape teaching "The Hope" he makes an interesting statement almost identical to the one you just made. However he also adds a rejoinder that stands IN CONTRAST to the first remark. This occurs about half way through the teaching, and is in the Way Magazine J/A 1985 p.10.
"I have never and I will never put myself in the shoes of
the Biblical apostles -- Peter, Paul, or any of the others
-- but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God
they spoke and taught."
The phrase "--but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God
they spoke and taught" is set in contrast to "never put MYSELF in the shoes"
[with my caps]. What does he mean by this second phrase, beyond the notion of contrasting with the first? I'll bet it jives with all the 90 plus other "Thus saith the Lord" statements I've found in print, and the 25 sound clips I compiled on tape.
If we want to see a man who lives what Dr put in print we need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ.
***
You then shot from the hip: “There is every indication.....”
STOP! That’s all I need to read here. You are SOOOO lacking in comprehension of SOOOO many indicators that when you use the phrase “every indication” my eyes glaze over. Get some idea of what the record indicates, instead of your partially informed and faulty memory and then I’ll be able to read more.
I have every indication you speak about that which you have no knowledge.
You wrote: “Paul changed after his conversion. He repented of his deeds...”
We have no indication of how well Paul did in many departments of his life except what is written. We see in scripture that he endured much persecution. We also see that he betrayed God in a nostalgia fit in going to Jerusalem. We also see in Romans 7 that he admitted that he had a rotten old man nature. You act as if you have at your disposal all the details of his life, but you don’t.
You wrote: “For the umpteenth time, there is absolutely nothing outside of your own imagination that supports your assertion that Wierwille wrote PFAL theopneustos.”
For the umpteenth plus one time, I do have plenty. First of all, he SAID so, which is denied by many here. I have found where he said it many times, AND it was ignored by us all. The fact that none here can seem to remember or even find these many “Thus saith the Lord” statements proves to me how much I need to NEVER listen to your wisdom or knowledge.
I have seen how the writings FIT for many years, and how well they work when I work them.
I’m convinced enough to bet my life on them. If you ever finish working the writings like you were told to, you will see this too. As for proof to you before you undertake a real mastery? Forget it. You can wait for the Bema for that, but it will be too late.
It’s not my job to prove anything to you. I simply announce the truth and you can break yourself on it or try it out and see it.
***
You wrote: “You have no real audience here, Mike. You might as well grow up and face that fact.”
I didn’t come here for acceptance, just the opportunity to make known what was forgotten or never absorbed at all. I am succeeding. Plus, there are SOME who have believed. There may be more. I don’t operate the way you do, so give up trying to get me to comply with your game. I got my own agenda and I got it from the True God and His Son.
You wrote: “Since life is short, you might do better by moving your soap box to another street corner. The internet's a big place, and there's bound to be someplace where people might actually consider your secret mastery. Not here, though. You might as well be preaching to a row of empty chairs...”
When I post here the number of people who read and respond is ten times the number who take notice of your blather. I think you’re just jealous.
You wrote: “BG also predicted that the ministry would fall because of idolatry.”
So did Dr predict the fall of TWI. The idolatry he saw was self worship of their own brains in most leadership. This continues here in many.
BG was lost in some traditions. He predicted the fall of the ministry because we didn’t call the manifestations “gifts of the spirit” like everyone else. He had some things dead wrong and that’s why God was unable to help him reach the thousands with SIT and TIP that Dr reached.
You wrote: “I am not insisting upon perfection in anyone. I am insisting that a person measure themselves by, and live up to, their own standards before they impose them upon me.”
No one imposed anything on you at all in PFAL. Later on, due to your incomplete follow through in studying and understanding what Dr taught you were tricked into volunteering to hang out with a bunch of Corps Nazi idiots who imposed a lot of things on you.
If you insist on Dr having to live up to what he taught in PFAL then you will not receive the benefits taught in those books. If you relinquish that stipulation and master the books in spite of Dr’s failure to be the man he knew to be, then you can become the light that those books are. Keep the stipulation and my message will not benefit you. You decide.
You wrote: “... I want to be very sure that I don't change my thinking and throw out biblical truths, simply because of Wierwille's walk (or lack of walking) in these truths in Christ. Truth should stand by itself, whether or not VPW lived up to it. Just an observation on my part: it's too bad some folks now disbelieve almost everything we learned in TWI because of disenchantment and disappointment with men's walks.”
Amen!!! I too grieve for those who stipulate the need for a perfect teacher and pass up perfect teaching that they really do need.
You also wrote: “VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?”
Thanks for the fresh air, oldiesman. It was getting terribly stuffy in here.
You wrote: “Can you seriously suggest that Jesus would teach from the PFAL booK?????”
If I can seriously assert my belief that the PFAL writings are the God-breathed re-issue of God’s Word then it is a very small step to see that Jesus Christ would be very interested in it for himself and for us.
You’re pretty new here and haven’t seen the reams I’ve posted on this GREAT news that God finished all the Biblical reconstruction work for us in PFAL. We need not fret over which miscopied manuscript fragments (that’s all that’s left of the originals) to run with any more. We don’t need to fret about OBTAINING the Word of God any more from flawed reconstructions, translations, or versions. All we need to do is apply all the keys we learned in the class to rightly divide what we were given in PFAL.
The PFAL writings, in book and magazine form, were given by revelation from God. All other Bible versions, translations, and reconstructions were given to us by human scholars. Antiquity handed down to us only approximate forms of God’s Word. God solved this, starting in 1942, by teaching Dr His Word better than any scholar’s guess, and Dr taught it to us in its most ultimate form in the PFAL writings.
We never fully received these writings, and usually would merely wing it on the tape versions of the class. Dr told us to master the writings over and over, but none of us heard this oft repeated instruction. As a result, calamity ensued and many problems.
Jesus Chris appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so.
Both of your posts were very interesting regarding history and traditional institutions. Thank you.
At the end of your first you wrote: “If history repeats itself, I have little doubt VPW will ultimately be elevated into the same class - like that of Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. I'm sure you may be wondering if it will happen any time soon. I dare say it will only happen to VPW much like it happened historically to all the other great men of faith - and that only happened to them after all their antagonists died off.”
I do heartily agree with your last line. Ironically, it’s the belly aching of his critics that is helping to launch MORE attention to his writings, rather than less. His antagonists will run out of steam, but their venting only helps draw attention to him.
However, I do not believe history will repeat itself here. I believe we are at the end of the era and BIG changes are in store. This is why God gave us PFAL.
Here are three quotes from Dr’s 3rd to the last teaching on Resurrection Sunday 4-7-85, at the Atlanta Word in Business Conference. It was issued as Tape of the Month 3/88. The title of the teaching is "The Moment of a New Age."
(1) “...for speaking in tongues is the external manifestation of the internal reality of God in Christ in you, the living reality and hope of glory. And what a new day. A new beginning day this is for us living at this time.”
(2) “We have the external reality and presence and hope of Christ in us. So, this is a... moment of a new age began... at that time, and also for all of us it's a new beginning, for us living at this time.”
(3) “It's a new age. We are Jesus Christ men and women.”
The context of the first two of these quotes is the new age the Apostles entered as a result of the Resurrection. HOWEVER Dr adds this phrase each time: "...for us living at this time." The third statement stands alone in it's own context.
You wrote: “I was working from memory and thought Wierwille unpacked his assertions about man being sovereign over the acts of God...”
I see better now what you were getting at.
I do believe that man’s believing enables God to legally enter the adversary’s domain. God gave Adam dominance over this world and he gave it to the adversary. In THIS WORLD God needs believing to get things done.
God knew in His foreknowledge all these limitations He would face to and planned accordingly to guarantee His ultimate victory. But in the meantime, I do see man limiting God. I know I have, much to my regret.
You wrote in your third post here: “WPW's contribution was simply: The Word of God is The Will of God, and that the bible is the revealed Word and Will of God.”
I think it’s more. He led us all (no one gets missed) into the first three manifestations. He gave us God’s Word in written form, which when we finally master, will lead us into the next three manifestations. Then we can hear God clearly to usher us into the final three.
I see the PFAL books, in general, leading us into the Appearing Administration, enabling us to see Jesus Christ and become like him.
[This message was edited by Mike on February 03, 2004 at 5:35.]
You have taken the very little bit I have told you about myself and my life and pummeled me into a mold and poured me out with very little thought or care about who I am as a human being. It's twi all over again.
Been there, done that...now I'm tossing out the mass of rot that spoiled the bath water.
I pummeled your stipulation because it's limiting you. I care much about you as a human being. I think the ideas you have embraced hurt and limit you. It's your ideas that are incorrect.
I’ve shared my heart with you being totally honest, and you don’t accept it.
Mike, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what everbody's problems are. here.
I was once told that you can somewhat verify that a person definately has a problem when everybody else is wrong and you are the only one that is right. Can you relate to this Mike?
CW, You are pretty cool and from your post I find your opinions, experiences and humor to be very unlimited.
Hopefully Mike you can come to terms with yourself and accept the fruit that has been put before you. Throw out the slop that has been fed to you from the hog troths of TWI and enjoy the sweetness of life.
Because you and I have spoken so very much on the telephone (at least 15 hours), you cannot isolate one post and act as if that is all you have said to me.
You know that I have pondered your words. You know that I have considered your viewpoint. You know that I have set aside my beliefs to give your beliefs the benefit of the doubt.
In the end, you stated to me that you would not do that for me.
What has all of this cost you, Mike?
That is the bottom line question, imo.
Whenever a belief system becomes more important than one's spouse, more important than one's children, more important than one's friends, that belief system is no longer functional for humanity.
There is no possible way for your belief system to work within a family, within a community, within a city, within a country without it all turning to strife and, eventually, war. You yourself have stated to me that you fully believe that you are in a spiritual war. It is not long before a spiritual war manifests into a physical war. Have you seen a news broadcast in the last 2 years?
You see, Mike, zero tolerance with a belief system means zero tolerance of anybody who doesn't adopt the same system getting close enough to be a spouse, a friend, a son or a daughter or a grandchild.
You have rejected the very idea that Jesus' most important message is taking care of and for one another.
?????????????
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 03, 2004 at 9:00.]
Edited by CoolWaters to remove personal stuff that doesn't belong on the boards.
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:25.]
You wrote: “ Still not the same comparison, I'm afraid. Whose life was a better example of the ideals of Christianity: the Apostle Paul (post-Damascus) or VPW...”
Again, you forget the record as you shoot from the hip. Dr said, wrote, and chiseled “I wish I were the man I know to be.”
You've got to be kidding. Alas, I know you're not, but any rational person would be. He could SAY whatever the hell he wanted to, but his LIFE did not reflect it. That little blurb is neither an explanation or an excuse, merely a man writing his own license for sin.
"I wish I were the man I know to be,...but I'm not, so get in the coach and bend over!"
In Dr's second to last published tape teaching "The Hope" he makes an interesting statement almost identical to the one you just made. However he also adds a rejoinder that stands IN CONTRAST to the first remark. This occurs about half way through the teaching, and is in the Way Magazine J/A 1985 p.10.
"I have never and I will never put myself in the shoes of
the Biblical apostles -- Peter, Paul, or any of the others
-- but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God
they spoke and taught."
The phrase "--but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God
they spoke and taught" is set in contrast to "never put MYSELF in the shoes"
[with my caps]. What does he mean by this second phrase, beyond the notion of contrasting with the first? I'll bet it jives with all the 90 plus other "Thus saith the Lord" statements I've found in print, and the 25 sound clips I compiled on tape.
I'll bet it doesn't. Thus saith the Lord.
If we want to see a man who lives what Dr put in print we need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Odd, but I can't find a single record where Jesus claimed something that wasn't his as his own. Not a book, not another man's wife, not one record. Funny, that.
***
You then shot from the hip: “There is every indication.....”
STOP! That’s all I need to read here. You are SOOOO lacking in comprehension of SOOOO many indicators that when you use the phrase “every indication” my eyes glaze over. Get some idea of what the record indicates, instead of your partially informed and faulty memory and then I’ll be able to read more.
Your eyes have been glazed over from far before you ever decided to come here, Mike. Your understanding of PFAL is so twisted out of proportion that Wierwille would be ashamed of what little you've actually learned from him. "Dodge, distract, challenge right back, but never admit an error is an error..." What page of the orange book is that one on, again?
I have every indication you speak about that which you have no knowledge.
Your indicators seriously need someone to cast them out of your addled brain.
You wrote: “For the umpteenth time, there is absolutely nothing outside of your own imagination that supports your assertion that Wierwille wrote PFAL theopneustos.”
For the umpteenth plus one time, I do have plenty. First of all, he SAID so, which is denied by many here. I have found where he said it many times, AND it was ignored by us all. The fact that none here can seem to remember or even find these many “Thus saith the Lord” statements proves to me how much I need to NEVER listen to your wisdom or knowledge.
Wierwille spoke of such poor Biblical Research in the class. His example was "The Bible says 'there is no God'". You're doing the same thing with this laughable notion that every time he quoted "thus saith the Lord" that was some indication that he was speaking directly for God. You know, whenever someone claims to speak directly for God, I always ask which one, because the Bible says there are two...
I have seen how the writings FIT for many years, and how well they work when I work them.
Again with tooting your own horn, eh? Like I said, and like you continue to ignore, Wierwille's word isn't proof of anything. Your words aren't proof of anything either, since they're pale, warped adulterations of his. The only thing you keep squawking about is your muddled interpretation, which nobody else can corroborate. You're just mentally masturbating, Mike. Your arguments are circular, fallacious, and laughable.
I’m convinced enough to bet my life on them. If you ever finish working the writings like you were told to, you will see this too. As for proof to you before you undertake a real mastery? Forget it. You can wait for the Bema for that, but it will be too late.
How convenient.
It’s not my job to prove anything to you. I simply announce the truth and you can break yourself on it or try it out and see it.
No, you simply assert your wishful thinking over and over, avoiding every real inquiry, and conveniently redefining your earlier statements when confronted with yet another of your contradictions. Your "mastery" doesn't pass a child's reality check, let alone be any sort of positive advertisement for your infantile idol worship.
The truth is that PFAL is shot through with errors from a fallible author and even he was not egotistical enough to claim it was a new epistle to the church. Your claims are unsupported, irreproducible, and false on their face. The only reason I bother with your sad little fantasy world is that it dishonors my God, my Lord Jesus Christ, and all of the victims of your idol.
***
You wrote: “You have no real audience here, Mike. You might as well grow up and face that fact.”
I didn’t come here for acceptance, just the opportunity to make known what was forgotten or never absorbed at all. I am succeeding. Plus, there are SOME who have believed. There may be more. I don’t operate the way you do, so give up trying to get me to comply with your game. I got my own agenda and I got it from the True God and His Son.
No, Mike, you are not succeeding at anything other than illustrating your ignorance, idolatry, and ill temper. If you have managed to browbeat any gullible lurkers into believing the rubbish you spew, then it is they whom I pray for. You, I fear, have become so possessed that you will never again be able to separate the truth of God's Word from your fevered ravings. Wierwille was no prophet and no apostle.
You wrote: “Since life is short, you might do better by moving your soap box to another street corner. The internet's a big place, and there's bound to be someplace where people might actually consider your secret mastery. Not here, though. You might as well be preaching to a row of empty chairs...”
When I post here the number of people who read and respond is ten times the number who take notice of your blather. I think you’re just jealous.
Ahh, the old "you're just jealous" line, the last refuge of the pathetic. No, Mike, I'm not jealous of you. I could not care less how many people read what I write, but your protestation is very telling of your narcissistic craving for attention and validation. I pity you, as I would pity anyone so blinded by their own failures that they dream up an elaborate retroactive history to cover their own inadequacies. I sincerely hope you eventually find something to fill the void that has sucked all reason, compassion, and common sense from you.
BG said wierwille handled the word of God deceitfully. Your statement: "BG was lost in some traditions. He predicted the fall of the ministry because we didn’t call the manifestations “gifts of the spirit” like everyone else."
Answer: Nope, wrong again. BG said the term manifestation was wrong and the implications of it were wrong. Also, it was because of the way people worshipped knowledge as their god and wierwille as the head of the body of Christ instead of Christ.
"He had some things dead wrong and that’s why God was unable to help him reach the thousands with SIT and TIP that Dr reached."
Answer: BG reached more people, healed more people, got more born again than VPW ever did before Wierwille was even born. God's witness of BG Leonard's ministry and its fruit stand in stark contrast to the rotten crap flowing from Wierwille's ministry.
You Mike have such a screwed up viewpoint of what really happened. You may find this link comparing the two interesting, although I think you are so convinced your idolatry is right, you cannot be woken up: http://www.waychrist.com/BG%20V.%20VPW.htm
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 03, 2004 at 12:42.]
You wrote: “Mike, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what everbody's problems are. here.”
I’m better than a shrink. I know the root causes of everyone’s ill’s here. I got it from God’s Word. Man’s basic spiritual problem is the intergrity* of God’s Word.
(*Bongggggggggggg! We’re on topic, Brady!)
So, I know the root cause. If you could find a shrink who was a grad (and had mastered the books) then he might be able to help some varieties of individuals with the variety of individual offshoot problems they have as a result of not having a health respect for the integrity of God’s Word. For THIS, I cannot help and am not qualified. Heck, I’ve got my OWN problems to work on that keep me quite busy.
Each individual here has a different background as to what screwed them up prior to taking PFAL; each has a different learning pattern as to what they absorbed of God’s pure Word while they were exposed to the books; each has a different pattern as to what they forgot; each has a different set of buttons for the adversary to have pushed due to all the previous factors plus individual genetics and body chemistry. That all is a hopeless thicket for me to try to deal with regarding someone else (unless I get revelation), and like I said I have my own thicket to deal with too. I’m simply not qualified to mess with any individual’s personal life. But I certainly AM qualified to state that God says: Man’s basic spiritual problem is the intergrity* of God’s Word. I can say to every grad here, especially the OLGs, come back to PFAL and watch how God ministers to you via His pure Word. Just be sure to master it this time instead of dabbling with it.
You wrote: “I could not care less how many people read what I write, but your protestation is very telling of your narcissistic craving for attention and validation. I pity you, as I would pity anyone so blinded by their own failures that they dream up an elaborate retroactive history to cover their own inadequacies.”
Zix, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what my problems are here!
The perversion called PFAL has screwed up many people, that were straightened out by BG Leonard's class.
Instead of your preoccupation with OLGs a term you coined for the purpose of loading the language like cults do, why don't you drop the idolatry of Wierwille and move on to the real truth with God, not satan's servant VPW and his successors...
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced by anyone including employees and followers of The Way International, Inc..
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 03, 2004 at 13:03.]
You wrote: “You know that I have pondered your words. You know that I have considered your viewpoint. You know that I have set aside my beliefs to give your beliefs the benefit of the doubt. __ In the end, you stated to me that you would not do that for me.”
It was in the beginning, right from the start, that I would not offer you nor anyone else a symmetrical arrangement of respect of beliefs or belief systems. You just didn’t hear me. When it comes to some of your beliefs and certainly the whole system, I assert that I my system is correct and yours is incorrect.
However, it IS the case that I set aside set aside those beliefs of yours that are incorrect to give YOU AS A PERSON the benefit of the doubt. There’s a fine difference, and you didn’t pick up on it from the start. If you carefully read all my posts, you will see this has always been my stated position.
I have no intention of giving credence to your system of beliefs or anyone else’s. It IS the case that I try my best to highlight those items in someone’s system that ARE correct. I am sure that all other systems of thought outside the PFAL writings are counterfeit. The word counterfeit implies that SOME elements are identical to the genuine.
This is NOT the ego trip you (and nearly every poster reading this) think it is. Here’s why.
I searched for the genuine belief system very diligently. I made it my #1 goal in life, even at the expense of many social and financial comforts. I did what Jesus said in Matt 6 to seek FIRST the kingdom of God.
I tried many things, and when God told me THIS is the genuine I changed my core beliefs to line up with the superior genuine real McCoy.
It’s not ME that’s superior, it’s the belief system that God brought to me that’s superior.
I myself was terribly inferior to this system, so I dumped my core beliefs to embrace this perfect system. There are times and there are aspects of this system where I have blown it or not yet had the time to adopt the exact elements this system presents, and in those aspects I am inferior.
I invite you to try (and maybe even adopt) this superior system. There’s plenty of room for us all here, and whoever gets this system down better than me will be superior to me in those areas I am lacking.
I have no intention of every doing you the disservice of saying that such-and-such beliefs of yours are different than the PFAL writings, but they are yours and equally valid. When and where you depart from what God says you are dead wrong and that will hurt you and hurt others you spread that particular error to.
I do not believe in a cosmic democracy where all belief systems are equal. There’s one point of view that’s God’s, and then there are many, many wrong points of view. If you differ from the God Who inspired the PFAL writings then you are wrong.
***
You wrote: “Whenever a belief system becomes more important than one's spouse, more important than one's children, more important than one's friends, that belief system is no longer functional for humanity.”
No, when and where a family disagrees on God’s Word, they are dysfunctional. God’s system of beliefs is always right. Like mindedness on the truth is a very rare thing, and that’s why humanity in general is a huge failure. Jesus promised that there would always be poverty and war until he straightens out all this error with his coming.
***
You wrote: “I shared with you the sadness I have experienced in my marriage. I did not share these things with you asking you for help, but, instead, I was trying to show you that if I had adopted your belief system, I would not be married today.”
You do not know what my belief system is in any detail. The belief system that gave rise to the horrors you described was a terribly sloppy partial PFAL set of many systems that all of us grads succumbed to as we failed to get those books open. The partial PFAL system you had cooking and the differing partiar PFAL systems the Corps Nazis had clashed and it was a mess. This happened to me too. That’s why I came back to study the writings to get the full picture of PFAL.
***
You wrote: “You took that information and basically said to me that your god has a better option in my life. When I asked you if you were saying that your god has a better man for me, you said that I should consider that possibility.”
The first sentence is true, except I’d capitalize the word God.
The second sentence is TOTALLY false.
I NEVER said anything of the sort. You either misheard something, or a lying spirit whispered it to you, or stuck it in your memory.
I would NEVER say such a thing..... EVER.... PERIOD!
I did say your husband was blessed to have you and to have taken the class.
***
You wrote: “Where would it stop, Mike? If I were to get away from my husband because he refuses to believe the same way I believe, then I would have to get away from my son, my daughter and my granddaughter.”
It stops when you stop getting my words incorrect and the PFAL words incorrect.
***
You wrote: “You see, Mike, zero tolerance with a belief system means zero tolerance of anybody who doesn't adopt the same system getting close enough to be a spouse, a friend, a son or a daughter or a grandchild. __ You have rejected the very idea that Jesus' most important message is taking care of and for one another. __ I have demonstrated to you and others here how I do have a zero tolerance to the error, but total acceptace to the one who is plagued by the error.”
I have demonstrated to you and others here how I do have a zero tolerance to the error, but total acceptance to the one who is plagued by the error. This is what Jesus taught.
You wrote: “The perversion called PFAL has screwed up many people...”
Not true! It’s the partial knowledge of PFAL, mixed with many other items that screwed up lots of people. Dr saw this happening, first in leadership, and later in us all, so he was constantly telling us to get it straight by mastering the writings. None of us obeyed and we screwed ourselves up according to how much we had PFAL accurate in mind and in action with love.
and if a mistake happen it doesnt matter because it was not you it was your flesh... doesnt count.
this is just frightening .
We are to be accountable for one another in the body, I do not say to any body part "I have no need of you ". yet you do. you say they are not worthy .
you sound very self righteous, the problem with this approach is no one will want to hear what your saying..
you can brag all you want on the numbers that read your posts but the POINT is what are they saying about your writings?
it doesnt matter to you may say you just give the message but then BAM suddenly it does matter to you when you tell Zixar people listen to you more than him..... hmm
which way is it?
that is so twi, twist it all around of course your job is to give the message and save the souls your Godly.
It does not matter if they believe it or not.
Then say well look at me they read my posts far more than yours and it matters now!!!! as leverage of power.. hmmmm
they read your posts but few go along with the program Mike.
get real get honest.. for yourself .
sure it is about attention.. negative or positive attention is attention... but really what is it you have accomplished?
If you read your post and look at it as if you were receiving your own words...right?
(you know, what you intend towards others)
...do you follow me so far?
No mirror trick Mike, but I think there may be a case of projection going on with you towards GSers in general.
You seem, (and I could be wrong) to protest too much about others moving on and living their own lives while excluding the sacred (and to some, very lame) pfal materials, to the degree you accuse others of 'missing it'.
Did it occur to you that people have finally grew up and left behind those TWI dreams, which include:
~ vpw
~ pfal
~ having the absolute "truth"
~ and bashing others when/where they feel "right" or a 'sense of contentment'?
Really man...I am very disappointed in the recent posts I've read that you have written, especially on this page to very honest people.
I'm butting in here and butting out, while leaving you with a thought ~
Do you really buy what you are selling here?
I do not believe that you honestly can accept half of what you preach.
If you do, that must leave you very alone. And that's sad, Mike.
To prejudge everyone and everything they can/will and do say is a sad predicament to find oneself in at any age!
Like Trix is for kids!!!
TWI IS FOR KIDS!!!!
Get it!
[This message was edited by Ginger Tea on February 03, 2004 at 14:12.]
Yes it does matter to me, so I’ve been EXTREMELY careful about these things.
I did consider the possibility that I could be wrong in embracing PFAL. I did this often for 27 years, from 1971 to 1998. During that time I tried other things as well.
It is scary to crystallize on one thing, but what’s the alternative? I think many see how scary this is, but they don’t put the effort in to seek FIRST, so they only run into partially worthy belief systems, ones that rightfully seem unworthy of totally latching onto.
The way people cope with this scary situation is backing off and continuing their shopping for other things to consider. I did this constantly for those 27 years, all the while wondering how other people could jump into the ministry so totally enthusiastic. I saw them going hog wild for VPW, and I thought it was dangerous.
Now, with the benefit of hindsight I see that they did this only partially, and they (me too) balked at mastering the BOOKS. They’d get all gushy and committed to VPW, the man and his flesh and his tapes and his swagger and bravado, but now I see they always stopped short of real book mastery. This was how SOME behaved, and now they are the most bitterly disappointed of us all.
Other people, especially outside the ministry, cope with the scariness of totally commitment by forever backing off and making an entire belief system of not committing to any one system that’s offered on the market. They THINK they’re safe in this, but they’re really sticking their head in the sand, unaware that they have anointed THEMSELVES and their internal editor as the “safe” commitment.
These people, most of the Western population, are locked onto totally trusting their own abilities to pick and choose their own beliefs. The current state religion of Western civilization is this total commitment to relativism. It started out in the 1960’s as “Do your own thing.” and now it’s crystallized into “All belief systems are valid... except those belief systems that say some other belief system is wrong.” Another way to put it is “There are absolutely no absolutes... absolutely.”
Some people who edit down a belief system of their own spent the time and effort to write it down and offer it on the market to others to use in their editing process. It’s a hopeless situation.
It certainly can be scary, but there’s no way around it. Everyone MUST place their bet on SOMETHING, whether it’s Plato, Aristotle, some other offering on the market, or their own latest hodgepodge of edited beliefs.
After 27 years of shopping I decided in 1998 to use PFAL, and the Word of God it proclaims and is, as my only rule for faith and practice.
Like Dr taught us in the class, if I’m wrong, I’m going to go down with the ship. Choose your ship wisely.
I told someone on the phone the other day that if PFAL is wrong I WANT to die. Maybe I'd drop acid and go sky diving without a parachute if I knew for sure it was wrong, just to go out with a bang.
I think you're being a bit humorous, but I'm totally serious.
put a WARNING up first ...readers, take 2 tylenols!"
Most people here know what I stand for, and they volunteer to take their shots in an effort to crack me. The harder they try to ram the solid foundation and building I enjoy, the more they hurt their heads and need that Tylenol.
You have a point when it comes to new people. Sometimes I don’t recognize that they are new and I may go a little too strong with them. Maybe I did that with outofdafog last week. I later softened my posting to her.
What shocks you about my posting is that I defy the state religion of Western civilization, which is moral and doctrinal relativism. I am an absolutist, and that’s not tolerated any more. There were times when the wrong sets of absolutes were forced on many people in the West, such as the conformism of the 1950’s, to name one example of absolutism-gone-wrong.
Unfortunately, the wrong solution was implemented by the intelligencia, and the pendulum swung WAY too far to the other extreme of total relativism.
I’ve heard that Einstein regretted calling his theory “Relativity” because at a very early date he saw it being misused (in society) to support this swing to total relativism. He mused somewhere, I am told, that he wished he called it the Theory of Absolutivity.
Einstein saw (in Physics) that the Newtonian system of space and time being absolute didn’t line up with the way nature worked when things were measured. He saw that the speed of light was the absolute, so he swapped what he would treat as absolute and relative, and the math worked perfectly with how nature behaved.
So, in Einstein’s confirmed theory, space and time are relative and “c” is absolute. This absolute was ignored by the intelligencia.
Yes, I do defy Absolutism. Actually there is a bit of relativity in moral systems, but not in doctrinal. Sin for one person MAY in some instances not be a sin for another. However a promise of God is a promise of God and is absolute to all people, even sinners, because God is no respecter of persons.
The same absolutivity holds for life immediately after death. No matter how much a belief system insists on some kind of consciousness persisting immediately after death, that belief system is DEAD WRONG on that point. Patting someone who believes in this error on the back and saying “Well that can be true for YOU” is a great way to perpetuate a multitude of errors and hurts.
[This message was edited by Mike on February 03, 2004 at 14:34.]
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
27
24
19
107
Popular Days
Feb 3
140
Feb 11
42
Feb 1
39
Feb 2
38
Top Posters In This Topic
alfakat 27 posts
rascal 24 posts
oldiesman 19 posts
Mike 107 posts
Popular Days
Feb 3 2004
140 posts
Feb 11 2004
42 posts
Feb 1 2004
39 posts
Feb 2 2004
38 posts
George Aar
WTH,
Puhleaze! Mr. Wierwille's "accomplishments" will be forgotten sooner than Billy Sunday's, Jim Bakker's, or Peter Popoff's.
He wasn't even that good of a conman. His one great skill was that he could pick his audience well. It took him a while to perfect the ability, but once he did, idealistic, young, vulnerable, inexperienced kids were his target audience.
Garner their attention by attacking evil, strawman, "establishment" enemies of his own making (the churches, religion, society in general), and setting up an "us and them" mentality so as to draw his audience into his fold ("if nobody in the world loves you, you will know that I have died").
That's why folks with a little academic training or just life experience were usually not easy prey for Wierwille's schtick. It was too easy to see through for all but the truly naive and needy.
And if someone still clings to the Vicster's B.S. after having finally gotten a little experience and maybe some education, I dunno, but personally I think there must be some larger mental issues going on. He was just too transparent of a huckster and egomaniac...
geo.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Oak,
Oldies did not use quote marks so he is technically ok. But it is still a misreprestation of my words. Don't be too concerned, I am kind of used to it from him. You say "much", he hears "most". You say "some" he hears "all". Go figure..
Oldies, what's up with that ?
No, it would not. That is very poor reasoning and I am sure you don't believe it anyway, so it ammounts to no more that rhetoric.
But, if for example VPW was in error on "Four Crucified" then Bullinger would be too since he got that from Bullinger. However, this does not make Bullinger himself "eroneous" as you suggested nor does it make him self-serving. It just makes him wrong.
But take VPW's teaching on tithing. He stress grace and fulfilling of the Law in almost all he taughts - except in those areas where he benefited - like tithing. VPW argued that "if they could give XX percent under the Law, then how much more shall we give under Grace?". What a crock! Why didn't he use this same kind of argument concerning blood sacrifice or any other parts of the Law? Because it did not line the pockets of the ministry and did not warm his bed -- that's why. And "if" VPW stole this teaching from someone else then I would lay odds that they were self-serving also - Or just blind followers parroting what they were taught.
Oldies, you can twist and turn and misrepreset what folks say all you want, but it changes nothing - nothing at all.
What the Hay,
Kinda got to chuckle at that... sorry.
First, Wierwille did not not even come to a historical contribution concerning the Bible (scripture PFAL, p128} being the "Word of God". Not even close.
However, he may have personally coined the little cliche "The Word of God is the will of God". But is it really? Many little catch phrases and cliches like this sound real good have an element of truth, but are many times overly simplistic - which certainly is the case with this one. The will of God goes far beyond what is written in scripture -- especially to the individual seeking specific direction.
VPW's take on scripture, among other things, led a lot of folks to exalt the ink on the paper far beyond what God intended (Bible Worship?) and to ignore or gloss over the guidance and teaching to be had from the Holy Spirit and from a relationship with the living Word of God, which is Jesus Christ.
Certainly the Bible can be an aid in seeking and understanding God's will. But to say that God's Word (scripture) "IS" the will of God - is pretty eroneous if you really think about it.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Zixar,
You wrote: “ Still not the same comparison, I'm afraid. Whose life was a better example of the ideals of Christianity: the Apostle Paul (post-Damascus) or VPW...”
Again, you forget the record as you shoot from the hip. Dr said, wrote, and chiseled “I wish I were the man I know to be.”
In Dr's second to last published tape teaching "The Hope" he makes an interesting statement almost identical to the one you just made. However he also adds a rejoinder that stands IN CONTRAST to the first remark. This occurs about half way through the teaching, and is in the Way Magazine J/A 1985 p.10.
"I have never and I will never put myself in the shoes of
the Biblical apostles -- Peter, Paul, or any of the others
-- but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God
they spoke and taught."
The phrase "--but I can put myself into the accuracy of the Word of God
they spoke and taught" is set in contrast to "never put MYSELF in the shoes"
[with my caps]. What does he mean by this second phrase, beyond the notion of contrasting with the first? I'll bet it jives with all the 90 plus other "Thus saith the Lord" statements I've found in print, and the 25 sound clips I compiled on tape.
If we want to see a man who lives what Dr put in print we need to look to the Lord Jesus Christ.
***
You then shot from the hip: “There is every indication.....”
STOP! That’s all I need to read here. You are SOOOO lacking in comprehension of SOOOO many indicators that when you use the phrase “every indication” my eyes glaze over. Get some idea of what the record indicates, instead of your partially informed and faulty memory and then I’ll be able to read more.
I have every indication you speak about that which you have no knowledge.
***********************************************************
Goey
You wrote: “Paul changed after his conversion. He repented of his deeds...”
We have no indication of how well Paul did in many departments of his life except what is written. We see in scripture that he endured much persecution. We also see that he betrayed God in a nostalgia fit in going to Jerusalem. We also see in Romans 7 that he admitted that he had a rotten old man nature. You act as if you have at your disposal all the details of his life, but you don’t.
***********************************************************
Zixar
You wrote: “For the umpteenth time, there is absolutely nothing outside of your own imagination that supports your assertion that Wierwille wrote PFAL theopneustos.”
For the umpteenth plus one time, I do have plenty. First of all, he SAID so, which is denied by many here. I have found where he said it many times, AND it was ignored by us all. The fact that none here can seem to remember or even find these many “Thus saith the Lord” statements proves to me how much I need to NEVER listen to your wisdom or knowledge.
I have seen how the writings FIT for many years, and how well they work when I work them.
I’m convinced enough to bet my life on them. If you ever finish working the writings like you were told to, you will see this too. As for proof to you before you undertake a real mastery? Forget it. You can wait for the Bema for that, but it will be too late.
It’s not my job to prove anything to you. I simply announce the truth and you can break yourself on it or try it out and see it.
***
You wrote: “You have no real audience here, Mike. You might as well grow up and face that fact.”
I didn’t come here for acceptance, just the opportunity to make known what was forgotten or never absorbed at all. I am succeeding. Plus, there are SOME who have believed. There may be more. I don’t operate the way you do, so give up trying to get me to comply with your game. I got my own agenda and I got it from the True God and His Son.
You wrote: “Since life is short, you might do better by moving your soap box to another street corner. The internet's a big place, and there's bound to be someplace where people might actually consider your secret mastery. Not here, though. You might as well be preaching to a row of empty chairs...”
When I post here the number of people who read and respond is ten times the number who take notice of your blather. I think you’re just jealous.
********************************************************
IMF777,
You wrote: “BG also predicted that the ministry would fall because of idolatry.”
So did Dr predict the fall of TWI. The idolatry he saw was self worship of their own brains in most leadership. This continues here in many.
BG was lost in some traditions. He predicted the fall of the ministry because we didn’t call the manifestations “gifts of the spirit” like everyone else. He had some things dead wrong and that’s why God was unable to help him reach the thousands with SIT and TIP that Dr reached.
**********************************************************
CoolWaters,
You wrote: “I am not insisting upon perfection in anyone. I am insisting that a person measure themselves by, and live up to, their own standards before they impose them upon me.”
No one imposed anything on you at all in PFAL. Later on, due to your incomplete follow through in studying and understanding what Dr taught you were tricked into volunteering to hang out with a bunch of Corps Nazi idiots who imposed a lot of things on you.
If you insist on Dr having to live up to what he taught in PFAL then you will not receive the benefits taught in those books. If you relinquish that stipulation and master the books in spite of Dr’s failure to be the man he knew to be, then you can become the light that those books are. Keep the stipulation and my message will not benefit you. You decide.
**********************************************************
oldiesman,
You wrote: “... I want to be very sure that I don't change my thinking and throw out biblical truths, simply because of Wierwille's walk (or lack of walking) in these truths in Christ. Truth should stand by itself, whether or not VPW lived up to it. Just an observation on my part: it's too bad some folks now disbelieve almost everything we learned in TWI because of disenchantment and disappointment with men's walks.”
Amen!!! I too grieve for those who stipulate the need for a perfect teacher and pass up perfect teaching that they really do need.
You also wrote: “VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?”
Thanks for the fresh air, oldiesman. It was getting terribly stuffy in here.
*******************************************************
dmiller,
You wrote: “Can you seriously suggest that Jesus would teach from the PFAL booK?????”
If I can seriously assert my belief that the PFAL writings are the God-breathed re-issue of God’s Word then it is a very small step to see that Jesus Christ would be very interested in it for himself and for us.
You’re pretty new here and haven’t seen the reams I’ve posted on this GREAT news that God finished all the Biblical reconstruction work for us in PFAL. We need not fret over which miscopied manuscript fragments (that’s all that’s left of the originals) to run with any more. We don’t need to fret about OBTAINING the Word of God any more from flawed reconstructions, translations, or versions. All we need to do is apply all the keys we learned in the class to rightly divide what we were given in PFAL.
The PFAL writings, in book and magazine form, were given by revelation from God. All other Bible versions, translations, and reconstructions were given to us by human scholars. Antiquity handed down to us only approximate forms of God’s Word. God solved this, starting in 1942, by teaching Dr His Word better than any scholar’s guess, and Dr taught it to us in its most ultimate form in the PFAL writings.
We never fully received these writings, and usually would merely wing it on the tape versions of the class. Dr told us to master the writings over and over, but none of us heard this oft repeated instruction. As a result, calamity ensued and many problems.
Jesus Chris appointed Dr his spokesman. Jesus Christ is VERY interested in PFAL. He told me so.
*************************************************************
What The Hay,
Both of your posts were very interesting regarding history and traditional institutions. Thank you.
At the end of your first you wrote: “If history repeats itself, I have little doubt VPW will ultimately be elevated into the same class - like that of Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. I'm sure you may be wondering if it will happen any time soon. I dare say it will only happen to VPW much like it happened historically to all the other great men of faith - and that only happened to them after all their antagonists died off.”
I do heartily agree with your last line. Ironically, it’s the belly aching of his critics that is helping to launch MORE attention to his writings, rather than less. His antagonists will run out of steam, but their venting only helps draw attention to him.
However, I do not believe history will repeat itself here. I believe we are at the end of the era and BIG changes are in store. This is why God gave us PFAL.
Here are three quotes from Dr’s 3rd to the last teaching on Resurrection Sunday 4-7-85, at the Atlanta Word in Business Conference. It was issued as Tape of the Month 3/88. The title of the teaching is "The Moment of a New Age."
(1) “...for speaking in tongues is the external manifestation of the internal reality of God in Christ in you, the living reality and hope of glory. And what a new day. A new beginning day this is for us living at this time.”
(2) “We have the external reality and presence and hope of Christ in us. So, this is a... moment of a new age began... at that time, and also for all of us it's a new beginning, for us living at this time.”
(3) “It's a new age. We are Jesus Christ men and women.”
The context of the first two of these quotes is the new age the Apostles entered as a result of the Resurrection. HOWEVER Dr adds this phrase each time: "...for us living at this time." The third statement stands alone in it's own context.
Thanks for the second breath of fresh air.
***********************************************************
Cynic,
You wrote: “I was working from memory and thought Wierwille unpacked his assertions about man being sovereign over the acts of God...”
I see better now what you were getting at.
I do believe that man’s believing enables God to legally enter the adversary’s domain. God gave Adam dominance over this world and he gave it to the adversary. In THIS WORLD God needs believing to get things done.
God knew in His foreknowledge all these limitations He would face to and planned accordingly to guarantee His ultimate victory. But in the meantime, I do see man limiting God. I know I have, much to my regret.
***********************************************************
What The Hay,
You wrote in your third post here: “WPW's contribution was simply: The Word of God is The Will of God, and that the bible is the revealed Word and Will of God.”
I think it’s more. He led us all (no one gets missed) into the first three manifestations. He gave us God’s Word in written form, which when we finally master, will lead us into the next three manifestations. Then we can hear God clearly to usher us into the final three.
I see the PFAL books, in general, leading us into the Appearing Administration, enabling us to see Jesus Christ and become like him.
[This message was edited by Mike on February 03, 2004 at 5:35.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Mike,
I am done with your life's topic.
You have taken the very little bit I have told you about myself and my life and pummeled me into a mold and poured me out with very little thought or care about who I am as a human being. It's twi all over again.
Been there, done that...now I'm tossing out the mass of rot that spoiled the bath water.
?????????????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
CoolWaters,
You're up late!
What do you mean about me pummeling you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
CW,
I went back and re-read my post.
I pummeled your stipulation because it's limiting you. I care much about you as a human being. I think the ideas you have embraced hurt and limit you. It's your ideas that are incorrect.
I’ve shared my heart with you being totally honest, and you don’t accept it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sadie
Mike, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what everbody's problems are. here.
I was once told that you can somewhat verify that a person definately has a problem when everybody else is wrong and you are the only one that is right. Can you relate to this Mike?
CW, You are pretty cool and from your post I find your opinions, experiences and humor to be very unlimited.
Hopefully Mike you can come to terms with yourself and accept the fruit that has been put before you. Throw out the slop that has been fed to you from the hog troths of TWI and enjoy the sweetness of life.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Mike,
Because you and I have spoken so very much on the telephone (at least 15 hours), you cannot isolate one post and act as if that is all you have said to me.
You know that I have pondered your words. You know that I have considered your viewpoint. You know that I have set aside my beliefs to give your beliefs the benefit of the doubt.
In the end, you stated to me that you would not do that for me.
What has all of this cost you, Mike?
That is the bottom line question, imo.
Whenever a belief system becomes more important than one's spouse, more important than one's children, more important than one's friends, that belief system is no longer functional for humanity.
There is no possible way for your belief system to work within a family, within a community, within a city, within a country without it all turning to strife and, eventually, war. You yourself have stated to me that you fully believe that you are in a spiritual war. It is not long before a spiritual war manifests into a physical war. Have you seen a news broadcast in the last 2 years?
You see, Mike, zero tolerance with a belief system means zero tolerance of anybody who doesn't adopt the same system getting close enough to be a spouse, a friend, a son or a daughter or a grandchild.
You have rejected the very idea that Jesus' most important message is taking care of and for one another.
?????????????
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 03, 2004 at 9:00.]
Edited by CoolWaters to remove personal stuff that doesn't belong on the boards.
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:25.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Thank you, Sadie. I really needed to hear that just now.
:)-->
?????????????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Zixar
Link to comment
Share on other sites
IMF777
Dear Mike,
BG said wierwille handled the word of God deceitfully. Your statement: "BG was lost in some traditions. He predicted the fall of the ministry because we didn’t call the manifestations “gifts of the spirit” like everyone else."
Answer: Nope, wrong again. BG said the term manifestation was wrong and the implications of it were wrong. Also, it was because of the way people worshipped knowledge as their god and wierwille as the head of the body of Christ instead of Christ.
"He had some things dead wrong and that’s why God was unable to help him reach the thousands with SIT and TIP that Dr reached."
Answer: BG reached more people, healed more people, got more born again than VPW ever did before Wierwille was even born. God's witness of BG Leonard's ministry and its fruit stand in stark contrast to the rotten crap flowing from Wierwille's ministry.
You Mike have such a screwed up viewpoint of what really happened. You may find this link comparing the two interesting, although I think you are so convinced your idolatry is right, you cannot be woken up: http://www.waychrist.com/BG%20V.%20VPW.htm
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced.
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 03, 2004 at 12:42.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
sadie,
You wrote: “Mike, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what everbody's problems are. here.”
I’m better than a shrink. I know the root causes of everyone’s ill’s here. I got it from God’s Word. Man’s basic spiritual problem is the intergrity* of God’s Word.
(*Bongggggggggggg! We’re on topic, Brady!)
So, I know the root cause. If you could find a shrink who was a grad (and had mastered the books) then he might be able to help some varieties of individuals with the variety of individual offshoot problems they have as a result of not having a health respect for the integrity of God’s Word. For THIS, I cannot help and am not qualified. Heck, I’ve got my OWN problems to work on that keep me quite busy.
Each individual here has a different background as to what screwed them up prior to taking PFAL; each has a different learning pattern as to what they absorbed of God’s pure Word while they were exposed to the books; each has a different pattern as to what they forgot; each has a different set of buttons for the adversary to have pushed due to all the previous factors plus individual genetics and body chemistry. That all is a hopeless thicket for me to try to deal with regarding someone else (unless I get revelation), and like I said I have my own thicket to deal with too. I’m simply not qualified to mess with any individual’s personal life. But I certainly AM qualified to state that God says: Man’s basic spiritual problem is the intergrity* of God’s Word. I can say to every grad here, especially the OLGs, come back to PFAL and watch how God ministers to you via His pure Word. Just be sure to master it this time instead of dabbling with it.
(*Bongggggggggggg! We’re on topic, again!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Zixar,
You wrote: “I could not care less how many people read what I write, but your protestation is very telling of your narcissistic craving for attention and validation. I pity you, as I would pity anyone so blinded by their own failures that they dream up an elaborate retroactive history to cover their own inadequacies.”
Zix, are you a Psychiatrist? You post as if you know what my problems are here!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
IMF777
Mike,
The perversion called PFAL has screwed up many people, that were straightened out by BG Leonard's class.
Instead of your preoccupation with OLGs a term you coined for the purpose of loading the language like cults do, why don't you drop the idolatry of Wierwille and move on to the real truth with God, not satan's servant VPW and his successors...
Copyright 2004 by the author. All rights reserved. Posting may not be copied or reproduced by anyone including employees and followers of The Way International, Inc..
[This message was edited by IMF777 on February 03, 2004 at 13:03.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
CoolWaters,
You wrote: “You know that I have pondered your words. You know that I have considered your viewpoint. You know that I have set aside my beliefs to give your beliefs the benefit of the doubt. __ In the end, you stated to me that you would not do that for me.”
It was in the beginning, right from the start, that I would not offer you nor anyone else a symmetrical arrangement of respect of beliefs or belief systems. You just didn’t hear me. When it comes to some of your beliefs and certainly the whole system, I assert that I my system is correct and yours is incorrect.
However, it IS the case that I set aside set aside those beliefs of yours that are incorrect to give YOU AS A PERSON the benefit of the doubt. There’s a fine difference, and you didn’t pick up on it from the start. If you carefully read all my posts, you will see this has always been my stated position.
I have no intention of giving credence to your system of beliefs or anyone else’s. It IS the case that I try my best to highlight those items in someone’s system that ARE correct. I am sure that all other systems of thought outside the PFAL writings are counterfeit. The word counterfeit implies that SOME elements are identical to the genuine.
This is NOT the ego trip you (and nearly every poster reading this) think it is. Here’s why.
I searched for the genuine belief system very diligently. I made it my #1 goal in life, even at the expense of many social and financial comforts. I did what Jesus said in Matt 6 to seek FIRST the kingdom of God.
I tried many things, and when God told me THIS is the genuine I changed my core beliefs to line up with the superior genuine real McCoy.
It’s not ME that’s superior, it’s the belief system that God brought to me that’s superior.
I myself was terribly inferior to this system, so I dumped my core beliefs to embrace this perfect system. There are times and there are aspects of this system where I have blown it or not yet had the time to adopt the exact elements this system presents, and in those aspects I am inferior.
I invite you to try (and maybe even adopt) this superior system. There’s plenty of room for us all here, and whoever gets this system down better than me will be superior to me in those areas I am lacking.
I have no intention of every doing you the disservice of saying that such-and-such beliefs of yours are different than the PFAL writings, but they are yours and equally valid. When and where you depart from what God says you are dead wrong and that will hurt you and hurt others you spread that particular error to.
I do not believe in a cosmic democracy where all belief systems are equal. There’s one point of view that’s God’s, and then there are many, many wrong points of view. If you differ from the God Who inspired the PFAL writings then you are wrong.
***
You wrote: “Whenever a belief system becomes more important than one's spouse, more important than one's children, more important than one's friends, that belief system is no longer functional for humanity.”
No, when and where a family disagrees on God’s Word, they are dysfunctional. God’s system of beliefs is always right. Like mindedness on the truth is a very rare thing, and that’s why humanity in general is a huge failure. Jesus promised that there would always be poverty and war until he straightens out all this error with his coming.
***
You wrote: “I shared with you the sadness I have experienced in my marriage. I did not share these things with you asking you for help, but, instead, I was trying to show you that if I had adopted your belief system, I would not be married today.”
You do not know what my belief system is in any detail. The belief system that gave rise to the horrors you described was a terribly sloppy partial PFAL set of many systems that all of us grads succumbed to as we failed to get those books open. The partial PFAL system you had cooking and the differing partiar PFAL systems the Corps Nazis had clashed and it was a mess. This happened to me too. That’s why I came back to study the writings to get the full picture of PFAL.
***
You wrote: “You took that information and basically said to me that your god has a better option in my life. When I asked you if you were saying that your god has a better man for me, you said that I should consider that possibility.”
The first sentence is true, except I’d capitalize the word God.
The second sentence is TOTALLY false.
I NEVER said anything of the sort. You either misheard something, or a lying spirit whispered it to you, or stuck it in your memory.
I would NEVER say such a thing..... EVER.... PERIOD!
I did say your husband was blessed to have you and to have taken the class.
***
You wrote: “Where would it stop, Mike? If I were to get away from my husband because he refuses to believe the same way I believe, then I would have to get away from my son, my daughter and my granddaughter.”
It stops when you stop getting my words incorrect and the PFAL words incorrect.
***
You wrote: “You see, Mike, zero tolerance with a belief system means zero tolerance of anybody who doesn't adopt the same system getting close enough to be a spouse, a friend, a son or a daughter or a grandchild. __ You have rejected the very idea that Jesus' most important message is taking care of and for one another. __ I have demonstrated to you and others here how I do have a zero tolerance to the error, but total acceptace to the one who is plagued by the error.”
I have demonstrated to you and others here how I do have a zero tolerance to the error, but total acceptance to the one who is plagued by the error. This is what Jesus taught.
Stop distorting my words.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
IMF777,
You wrote: “The perversion called PFAL has screwed up many people...”
Not true! It’s the partial knowledge of PFAL, mixed with many other items that screwed up lots of people. Dr saw this happening, first in leadership, and later in us all, so he was constantly telling us to get it straight by mastering the writings. None of us obeyed and we screwed ourselves up according to how much we had PFAL accurate in mind and in action with love.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mj412
Mike
what if your wrong?
it isnt possible is it? cant be.
and if a mistake happen it doesnt matter because it was not you it was your flesh... doesnt count.
this is just frightening .
We are to be accountable for one another in the body, I do not say to any body part "I have no need of you ". yet you do. you say they are not worthy .
you sound very self righteous, the problem with this approach is no one will want to hear what your saying..
you can brag all you want on the numbers that read your posts but the POINT is what are they saying about your writings?
it doesnt matter to you may say you just give the message but then BAM suddenly it does matter to you when you tell Zixar people listen to you more than him..... hmm
which way is it?
that is so twi, twist it all around of course your job is to give the message and save the souls your Godly.
It does not matter if they believe it or not.
Then say well look at me they read my posts far more than yours and it matters now!!!! as leverage of power.. hmmmm
they read your posts but few go along with the program Mike.
get real get honest.. for yourself .
sure it is about attention.. negative or positive attention is attention... but really what is it you have accomplished?
you may be doing harm , you could be wrong .
does it even matter to you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ginger Tea
Next time you write a post like that
put a WARNING up first
...readers, take 2 tylenols!
You are one hell of a master..baiter!!!
Really Mike,
If you read your post and look at it as if you were receiving your own words...right?
(you know, what you intend towards others)
...do you follow me so far?
No mirror trick Mike, but I think there may be a case of projection going on with you towards GSers in general.
You seem, (and I could be wrong) to protest too much about others moving on and living their own lives while excluding the sacred (and to some, very lame) pfal materials, to the degree you accuse others of 'missing it'.
Did it occur to you that people have finally grew up and left behind those TWI dreams, which include:
~ vpw
~ pfal
~ having the absolute "truth"
~ and bashing others when/where they feel "right" or a 'sense of contentment'?
Really man...I am very disappointed in the recent posts I've read that you have written, especially on this page to very honest people.
I'm butting in here and butting out, while leaving you with a thought ~
Do you really buy what you are selling here?
I do not believe that you honestly can accept half of what you preach.
If you do, that must leave you very alone. And that's sad, Mike.
To prejudge everyone and everything they can/will and do say is a sad predicament to find oneself in at any age!
Like Trix is for kids!!!
TWI IS FOR KIDS!!!!
Get it!
[This message was edited by Ginger Tea on February 03, 2004 at 14:12.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Hi mj412,
It’s been a while since we talked.
Yes it does matter to me, so I’ve been EXTREMELY careful about these things.
I did consider the possibility that I could be wrong in embracing PFAL. I did this often for 27 years, from 1971 to 1998. During that time I tried other things as well.
It is scary to crystallize on one thing, but what’s the alternative? I think many see how scary this is, but they don’t put the effort in to seek FIRST, so they only run into partially worthy belief systems, ones that rightfully seem unworthy of totally latching onto.
The way people cope with this scary situation is backing off and continuing their shopping for other things to consider. I did this constantly for those 27 years, all the while wondering how other people could jump into the ministry so totally enthusiastic. I saw them going hog wild for VPW, and I thought it was dangerous.
Now, with the benefit of hindsight I see that they did this only partially, and they (me too) balked at mastering the BOOKS. They’d get all gushy and committed to VPW, the man and his flesh and his tapes and his swagger and bravado, but now I see they always stopped short of real book mastery. This was how SOME behaved, and now they are the most bitterly disappointed of us all.
Other people, especially outside the ministry, cope with the scariness of totally commitment by forever backing off and making an entire belief system of not committing to any one system that’s offered on the market. They THINK they’re safe in this, but they’re really sticking their head in the sand, unaware that they have anointed THEMSELVES and their internal editor as the “safe” commitment.
These people, most of the Western population, are locked onto totally trusting their own abilities to pick and choose their own beliefs. The current state religion of Western civilization is this total commitment to relativism. It started out in the 1960’s as “Do your own thing.” and now it’s crystallized into “All belief systems are valid... except those belief systems that say some other belief system is wrong.” Another way to put it is “There are absolutely no absolutes... absolutely.”
Some people who edit down a belief system of their own spent the time and effort to write it down and offer it on the market to others to use in their editing process. It’s a hopeless situation.
It certainly can be scary, but there’s no way around it. Everyone MUST place their bet on SOMETHING, whether it’s Plato, Aristotle, some other offering on the market, or their own latest hodgepodge of edited beliefs.
After 27 years of shopping I decided in 1998 to use PFAL, and the Word of God it proclaims and is, as my only rule for faith and practice.
Like Dr taught us in the class, if I’m wrong, I’m going to go down with the ship. Choose your ship wisely.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
glug glug glug
?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Good one Exy!
:)-->
I told someone on the phone the other day that if PFAL is wrong I WANT to die. Maybe I'd drop acid and go sky diving without a parachute if I knew for sure it was wrong, just to go out with a bang.
I think you're being a bit humorous, but I'm totally serious.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
Hi Ginger,
You wrote: "Next time you write a post like that
put a WARNING up first ...readers, take 2 tylenols!"
Most people here know what I stand for, and they volunteer to take their shots in an effort to crack me. The harder they try to ram the solid foundation and building I enjoy, the more they hurt their heads and need that Tylenol.
You have a point when it comes to new people. Sometimes I don’t recognize that they are new and I may go a little too strong with them. Maybe I did that with outofdafog last week. I later softened my posting to her.
What shocks you about my posting is that I defy the state religion of Western civilization, which is moral and doctrinal relativism. I am an absolutist, and that’s not tolerated any more. There were times when the wrong sets of absolutes were forced on many people in the West, such as the conformism of the 1950’s, to name one example of absolutism-gone-wrong.
Unfortunately, the wrong solution was implemented by the intelligencia, and the pendulum swung WAY too far to the other extreme of total relativism.
I’ve heard that Einstein regretted calling his theory “Relativity” because at a very early date he saw it being misused (in society) to support this swing to total relativism. He mused somewhere, I am told, that he wished he called it the Theory of Absolutivity.
Einstein saw (in Physics) that the Newtonian system of space and time being absolute didn’t line up with the way nature worked when things were measured. He saw that the speed of light was the absolute, so he swapped what he would treat as absolute and relative, and the math worked perfectly with how nature behaved.
So, in Einstein’s confirmed theory, space and time are relative and “c” is absolute. This absolute was ignored by the intelligencia.
Yes, I do defy Absolutism. Actually there is a bit of relativity in moral systems, but not in doctrinal. Sin for one person MAY in some instances not be a sin for another. However a promise of God is a promise of God and is absolute to all people, even sinners, because God is no respecter of persons.
The same absolutivity holds for life immediately after death. No matter how much a belief system insists on some kind of consciousness persisting immediately after death, that belief system is DEAD WRONG on that point. Patting someone who believes in this error on the back and saying “Well that can be true for YOU” is a great way to perpetuate a multitude of errors and hurts.
[This message was edited by Mike on February 03, 2004 at 14:34.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Edited by CoolWaters to remove personal stuff that doesn't belong on the boards.
?????????????
[This message was edited by CoolWaters on February 05, 2004 at 20:26.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mike
CoolWaters,
I hope you are capable of blocking out the lie you broadcast.
I did NOT say you should consider leaving your husband.
Take back that lie NOW!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.