If my chemistry professor had molested/raped me and/or many other women, would I toss out what he had taught me about chemistry?
It seems like a simple question when put like that, doesn't it?
But chemistry is pretty much a quantifiable subject. When he taught me that , I could prove that one way or another regardless of my feelings.
None of what vpw or lcm or billy graham or oral roberts or jim jones or david koresh or anyone else has taught about god and the bible can be proven one way or another.
It is a leap of faith to adopt anybody's teaching concerning these matters.
Which means that the character of those teaching these matters must be measured according to their own standards.
As has been pointed out here, the very thing vpw, lcm et al was teaching about states certain standards as to who should/should not be believed.
vpw, lcm et al have proven to be at least immoral and false prophets.
The bible itself exhorts one not to believe such teachers of the bible.
quote:The Bible versions you read had some very bad men involved in their production, even the original writers. Paul, when he was called Saul, was MUCH worse than a ruffian.
I think this logic makes some sense. Saul was a murderer. Can you imagine if there were a Greasespot Cafe of the First Century? Folks would be posting on it how much of a creep Saul was for murdering beloved family members. Now there are those who would point out all the good Saul (also called Paul) has done....but like the sins of Wierwille it brings little solace to those who have been affected by the evil. In that sense, who cares whether he's repented or not, the damage is done, the dirty deeds are a historical fact.
So I think you can believe God's Word, even though it may have come from, or was expounded by, sinners and malefactors.
Still not the same comparison, I'm afraid. Whose life was a better example of the ideals of Christianity: the Apostle Paul (post-Damascus) or VPW (post-snowstorm)?
There is every indication that VPW's adulterous abuse INCREASED as he went along, whereas Paul put away his old man sins after his conversion.
VPW's forgiveness is NOT just between him and God, either. None of the women here who were used sexually by VPW ever got so much as an acknowledgement of his wrongdoing, let alone a contrite apology or any sort of restitution.
God cannot be held responsible for the wrongdoings of those who say they were following Him but were really doing evil.
If we insist on perfection in people we will ALWAYS be disappointed. This is also the case for ourselves. If we trust our own ability to edit from multiple sources, and ignore our own corruption, then our editing job will end up just as flawed as those we point fingers at.
***********************
Zixar,
I've never said that Dr did everything right or all that he should have done. He admitted this when on his gravestone.
I've only pointed out that in one area, receiving and putting God's revelations into written form. The show is not over. Not all the chips are in. There are plenty more chapters to be played out in the future. I see, in the resurrections, plenty of time for apologies or anything else needed to set things straight in TAHT area. Meantime, we can master this Word we were given in PFAL to rise up and meet the Lord in the air.
Good point, and one that Mike will most likely dodge or ignore.
Paul changed after his conversion. He repented of his deeds and was established by God as an apostle.
In contrast, VPW used his self-appointed position in an obscucre little cult to abuse and defraud his followers in the name of God.
The VPW defenders seem to always bring up Paul's evil deeds *before* his conversion to somehow justify VPW's evil deeds *after* his conversion and while he was supposedly an apostle or a MOG.
It's the same lame old "all men are sinners" ploy to prove VPW's status as MOGFOT and his works worthy of honor.
Who are they trying to persuade? Themselves I think.
They just can't stomach the idea that VPW was a fraud and a charletan and no real MOG at all, and that much of what he taught was eroneous and self-serving - because then they might have to take an honest look at all they believe to be true, and God forbid, change their thinking on a few things. Couldn't have that now could we? It is much easier to lie to one's self (and to others) and hold on to the error than to entertain the idea that much of what they beleive is dead wrong and pure BS.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
Mike: For the umpteenth time, there is absolutely nothing outside of your own imagination that supports your assertion that Wierwille wrote PFAL theopneustos. Zero, zip, nada. Nothing that you have proffered in support passes Wierwille's own standards for the inerrancy of God's Word, let alone any outside independent scrutiny.
You have made up a set of rules and definitions that you change on a whim whenever it suits you, all clothed in smarmy self-righteous egocentrism that makes Martindale look like a Buddhist monk in comparison. A single verse is all that's needed to demonstrate to anyone with a third-grade education that your preposterous idolatry is not concomitant with the true God's Word:
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
It's easy to find numerous examples of Wierwille's writings in PFAL and the collaterals that fail the above standard, and even easier to find more in your misguided hyper-Wierwillian sermons.
You have no real audience here, Mike. You might as well grow up and face that fact. While some may speak on your behalf at times, it is purely for the abstraction of personal freedom. Absolutely no one I've seen welcomes your constant "mastery" admonitions, nor have I seen the slightest interest in partaking of such bibliolatry, regardless of what lost secret mystery knowledge you claim lies within.
Since life is short, you might do better by moving your soap box to another street corner. The internet's a big place, and there's bound to be someplace where people might actually consider your secret mastery. Not here, though. You might as well be preaching to a row of empty chairs, (well-strung, if you like).
Mike said:"The books are pure and uncontaminated, thanks to God's mighty hand, with the issues that bother you."
The witness of the true God through BG Leonard was that Wierwille handled the word of God deceitfully, and that he wouldn't trust Wierwille to teach from his pulpit.
BG also predicted that the ministry would fall because of idolatry. Seems BG's prophecy has been confirmed by God, while the prophecies of your god Wierwille have been shown to be made of the same manure your idol was teaching...
Mike: how do you know that you were born again in PFAL? Many people have turned out to not be...
I am not insisting upon perfection in anyone. I am insisting that a person measure themselves by, and live up to, their own standards before they impose them upon me.
vpw did not live up to even the simplest of the standards his own "center reference for truth" provided.
He lied. He stole. He killed (even if it wasn't literally by his own hand, he taught things that lead to death). He destroyed.
By his own standards that is the mark of the thief...the adversary...the enemy.
And according to his own "center reference for truth", I had better not trust him to teach me anything.
quote:They just can't stomach the idea that VPW was a fraud and a charletan and no real MOG at all, and that much of what he taught was eroneous and self-serving - because then they might have to take an honest look at all they believe to be true, and God forbid, change their thinking on a few things.
Goey,
I don't mind changing my thinking on things if what I am believing is error. In fact, I welcome it. However, I want to be very sure that I don't change my thinking and throw out biblical truths, simply because of Wierwille's walk (or lack of walking) in these truths in Christ. Truth should stand by itself, whether or not VPW lived up to it. Just an observation on my part: it's too bad some folks now disbelieve almost everything we learned in TWI because of disenchantment and disappointment with men's walks.
VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?
quote:...and that much of what he taught was eroneous and self-serving...
quote:So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?
O-Man, I don't know if the poster you quoted meant for "much" to be synonymous with "most", but that's not what was written.
I think it would be fair to say that if what Vic taught was in error, then those he plagarized from would be in error also in the instances where the teaching was kept intact and in context. In instances where he "cut and pasted" teachings together then it would not be necessarily true. "Self serving" would seem to fall into the category of motivation. A teaching can be technically correct, but misused.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Mike -- what planet are you from? I liked vpw too, he did some good things, but I am not going to immortalize him. Can you seriously suggest that Jesus would teach from the PFAL booK?????
--> Not only is the theology therin "cracked" so is the binding (on my copy).
I wonder if there is a signed, first edition up there in Heavan. :D--> :D--> :D-->
Shoot low. Mike is riding a Shetland!
[This message was edited by dmiller on February 02, 2004 at 17:12.]
Brady sorry to let Mike distract me from answering you. :(--> You started a good thread, and I NEVER refer to vpw as Dr. anymore, tho as some have suggested, he put in the time, but in the wrong place, and thus is worthy of the title
--> hmmm perhaps. We'll see at the Bema eh?? :)--> :)--> :)--> :)-->
Just for the record most of the critisims leveled at VPW during his lifetime came right from the religious establishment that he, you and I all grew up in. Frankly I could care less what peoples personal opinions are about VPW - whether they are negative or positive.
CRITICISMS usually start and are directed at the few by the upper echelon of any governing bureucratic establisment (regardless if we happen to be talking about biblical, medical, or scientific establishments) who rigidly regulate the innovation of doctors, researchers and scientists while maintaining and vigorously protecting their own prestigious status quo. Even the criticisms leveled at the elite and most respected men throughout history was often met with the blind and defensive cry of "blasphemy" thereby providing encouragement for the bereaucratic establishment to only perpetrate their own mistakes at the cost of human lives and further human suffering. I'm sure this may sound like an exaggeration to many of you, but history teaches us it is not.
Fear of blasphemy only protects the religious establishment from being critizied itself, as "blasphemy" is the disrespect for persons or things regarded as sacred. This implies that such men are holy and therefore incapable of making mistakes, but even the establishment knows this is not true. It is only hoped by pointing out their mistakes, you and they may once again be alerted to the fact that history may once again be repeating itself.
Luther, Calvin, Wesley were likewise labeled blasphemers by the "protective" religious establishment in their day by those who were embarrased by "something" they did not fully understand themselves, who reacted by only vilifying and ostracizing what many now recognize to be great men of faith.
If history repeats itself, I have little doubt VPW will ultimately be elevated into the same class - like that of Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. I'm sure you may be wondering if it will happen any time soon. I dare say it will only happen to VPW much like it happened historically to all the other great men of faith - and that only happened to them after all their antagonists died off.
"Could you tell me which pages you are referring to in WWAY?"
*****
Mike,
I was working from memory and thought Wierwille unpacked his assertions about man being sovereign over the acts of God as it concerned the birth of Christ more than I can find that he did. What I wrote seems to have been based on the implications of the following statement by Wierwille (italics added), though I thought there were other statements:
"God's actions are limited by man's believing. And Mary the mother of Jesus was the first woman who believed to the extent that God could create soul-life in her so that she could bring forth God's only-begotten Son."
The above statement is quoted from a hardback edition of The Word's Way that appears to have been published in 1971. The chapter containing it is called "Sons of God: Adoption and Birth." The statement appears on page 80 of the edition I have.
Well history never kids around. But then, you and I are just a part of the current generation here Ex, just like everyone else is. Each generation believes they know so much more than the previous generation, and believes the previous generation had been extremely backward and handicapped in both their knowledge and capabilities. I think even Mike here recognizes this to some extent, but his position is more that people are simply relying on their "faulty memories" of what happen rather than the written record of what transpired.
But all this only brings up the dilemma that the current generation of which you and I are a part of now (which of course, we will only be the previous generation for the next generation) must, therefore, also be backward and handicapped in both our knowledge and capabilities.
Let me take a break from putting this forth merely from a biblical perspective and put this in medical terms and from a medical perspective which I think you might identify with more readily. Imagine taking a time trip back in time to visit the office of the modern doctor of the last century, who was also the product of the prestigious governing establishment. To your horror, a scruffy doctor who had just finished an autopsy would enter the room and begin to treat you with dirty unwashed hands.
Painless surgery was becoming popular due to the advent of anesthesia. An abdominal complaint could result in a go-in-blind-and-find procedure being recommended, but only after a little blood letting which was also popular at the time. Then if you bled too much during the surgery, any un-typed blood could be administered to you.
But if you bled too much during surgery, you just might feel like screaming at the ruling establishment to change their archaic medical procedures. But this type of blasphemy, however, may have gotten you thrown in jail where you would most certainly have been humiliated and vilified for daring to criticize the medical authorities of the day.
VPW was just someone we knew who happened to end up screaming at the ruling religious establishment because of what he happened to see in the bibilical field - and he also helped many of us to see the same things he saw. The ruling religious establishment was very quick to label him a "blasphemer", (and many of us ended up wearing the same labels he did - a blasphemer, cult follower, etc.) but all that accomplished was simply remove the focus from their own mistakes (which also resulted in many people being hurt and in much human suffering) to his mistakes.
We are all capable of making mistakes. The result is people end up getting hurt. Unfortunately human nature is more apt and quick and at shifting the blame and the focus off my mistake to your mistake, rather than simply fix the mistake itself. Why? Because this usually takes more energy, resources, time, money etc. of which nobody apparently seems to ever have enough of, regardless of whatever field of endeavor you may be involved it - be it biblical, scientific, or medical.
What the Hay .... the problem with vp is very clear when you read galations where the atributes listed of a *man of the flesh* are measured against those of a *man after the spirit*
There is one catagory that the majority of vp`s habits and character placed him in...
THAT is what history will show....
Character is determined by how you act when NOBODY is watching....
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CoolWaters
If my chemistry professor had molested/raped me and/or many other women, would I toss out what he had taught me about chemistry?
It seems like a simple question when put like that, doesn't it?
But chemistry is pretty much a quantifiable subject. When he taught me that
, I could prove that one way or another regardless of my feelings.
None of what vpw or lcm or billy graham or oral roberts or jim jones or david koresh or anyone else has taught about god and the bible can be proven one way or another.
It is a leap of faith to adopt anybody's teaching concerning these matters.
Which means that the character of those teaching these matters must be measured according to their own standards.
As has been pointed out here, the very thing vpw, lcm et al was teaching about states certain standards as to who should/should not be believed.
vpw, lcm et al have proven to be at least immoral and false prophets.
The bible itself exhorts one not to believe such teachers of the bible.
No amount of argument can change this.
?????????????
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oldiesman
I think this logic makes some sense. Saul was a murderer. Can you imagine if there were a Greasespot Cafe of the First Century? Folks would be posting on it how much of a creep Saul was for murdering beloved family members. Now there are those who would point out all the good Saul (also called Paul) has done....but like the sins of Wierwille it brings little solace to those who have been affected by the evil. In that sense, who cares whether he's repented or not, the damage is done, the dirty deeds are a historical fact.
So I think you can believe God's Word, even though it may have come from, or was expounded by, sinners and malefactors.
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CoolWaters
Personally I rejected Saul/Paul as doing any good a long time ago.
If it weren't for Saul/Paul, vpw, lcm et al would not have felt they could justify what they were doing to women.
?????????????
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Zixar
Still not the same comparison, I'm afraid. Whose life was a better example of the ideals of Christianity: the Apostle Paul (post-Damascus) or VPW (post-snowstorm)?
There is every indication that VPW's adulterous abuse INCREASED as he went along, whereas Paul put away his old man sins after his conversion.
VPW's forgiveness is NOT just between him and God, either. None of the women here who were used sexually by VPW ever got so much as an acknowledgement of his wrongdoing, let alone a contrite apology or any sort of restitution.
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Mike
CoolWaters,
God cannot be held responsible for the wrongdoings of those who say they were following Him but were really doing evil.
If we insist on perfection in people we will ALWAYS be disappointed. This is also the case for ourselves. If we trust our own ability to edit from multiple sources, and ignore our own corruption, then our editing job will end up just as flawed as those we point fingers at.
***********************
Zixar,
I've never said that Dr did everything right or all that he should have done. He admitted this when on his gravestone.
I've only pointed out that in one area, receiving and putting God's revelations into written form. The show is not over. Not all the chips are in. There are plenty more chapters to be played out in the future. I see, in the resurrections, plenty of time for apologies or anything else needed to set things straight in TAHT area. Meantime, we can master this Word we were given in PFAL to rise up and meet the Lord in the air.
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Mike
Hi Oldiesman,
Nice to see you again.
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Goey
Zix,
Good point, and one that Mike will most likely dodge or ignore.
Paul changed after his conversion. He repented of his deeds and was established by God as an apostle.
In contrast, VPW used his self-appointed position in an obscucre little cult to abuse and defraud his followers in the name of God.
The VPW defenders seem to always bring up Paul's evil deeds *before* his conversion to somehow justify VPW's evil deeds *after* his conversion and while he was supposedly an apostle or a MOG.
It's the same lame old "all men are sinners" ploy to prove VPW's status as MOGFOT and his works worthy of honor.
Who are they trying to persuade? Themselves I think.
They just can't stomach the idea that VPW was a fraud and a charletan and no real MOG at all, and that much of what he taught was eroneous and self-serving - because then they might have to take an honest look at all they believe to be true, and God forbid, change their thinking on a few things. Couldn't have that now could we? It is much easier to lie to one's self (and to others) and hold on to the error than to entertain the idea that much of what they beleive is dead wrong and pure BS.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Zixar
Mike: For the umpteenth time, there is absolutely nothing outside of your own imagination that supports your assertion that Wierwille wrote PFAL theopneustos. Zero, zip, nada. Nothing that you have proffered in support passes Wierwille's own standards for the inerrancy of God's Word, let alone any outside independent scrutiny.
You have made up a set of rules and definitions that you change on a whim whenever it suits you, all clothed in smarmy self-righteous egocentrism that makes Martindale look like a Buddhist monk in comparison. A single verse is all that's needed to demonstrate to anyone with a third-grade education that your preposterous idolatry is not concomitant with the true God's Word:
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
It's easy to find numerous examples of Wierwille's writings in PFAL and the collaterals that fail the above standard, and even easier to find more in your misguided hyper-Wierwillian sermons.
You have no real audience here, Mike. You might as well grow up and face that fact. While some may speak on your behalf at times, it is purely for the abstraction of personal freedom. Absolutely no one I've seen welcomes your constant "mastery" admonitions, nor have I seen the slightest interest in partaking of such bibliolatry, regardless of what lost secret mystery knowledge you claim lies within.
Since life is short, you might do better by moving your soap box to another street corner. The internet's a big place, and there's bound to be someplace where people might actually consider your secret mastery. Not here, though. You might as well be preaching to a row of empty chairs, (well-strung, if you like).
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papajohn
"Meantime, we can master this Word we were given in PFAL to rise up and meet the Lord in the air."
PFAL, that must be the book after revelations.
lol
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IMF777
Mike said:"The books are pure and uncontaminated, thanks to God's mighty hand, with the issues that bother you."
The witness of the true God through BG Leonard was that Wierwille handled the word of God deceitfully, and that he wouldn't trust Wierwille to teach from his pulpit.
BG also predicted that the ministry would fall because of idolatry. Seems BG's prophecy has been confirmed by God, while the prophecies of your god Wierwille have been shown to be made of the same manure your idol was teaching...
Mike: how do you know that you were born again in PFAL? Many people have turned out to not be...
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CoolWaters
Mike,
I am not insisting upon perfection in anyone. I am insisting that a person measure themselves by, and live up to, their own standards before they impose them upon me.
vpw did not live up to even the simplest of the standards his own "center reference for truth" provided.
He lied. He stole. He killed (even if it wasn't literally by his own hand, he taught things that lead to death). He destroyed.
By his own standards that is the mark of the thief...the adversary...the enemy.
And according to his own "center reference for truth", I had better not trust him to teach me anything.
?????????????
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oldiesman
Goey,
I don't mind changing my thinking on things if what I am believing is error. In fact, I welcome it. However, I want to be very sure that I don't change my thinking and throw out biblical truths, simply because of Wierwille's walk (or lack of walking) in these truths in Christ. Truth should stand by itself, whether or not VPW lived up to it. Just an observation on my part: it's too bad some folks now disbelieve almost everything we learned in TWI because of disenchantment and disappointment with men's walks.
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oldiesman
P.S.
VPW got all or most of his stuff from men of God scattered across the continent. So then if most of what he taught was erroneous and self-serving, would it be fair to say these men whom he got these biblical truths from were erroneous and self-serving as well?
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Zshot
Oldiesman,
Not everything that twi taught was in error. Most of the stuff that they plagerized from other people/groups outside of twi is good.
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Oakspear
I think it would be fair to say that if what Vic taught was in error, then those he plagarized from would be in error also in the instances where the teaching was kept intact and in context. In instances where he "cut and pasted" teachings together then it would not be necessarily true. "Self serving" would seem to fall into the category of motivation. A teaching can be technically correct, but misused.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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dmiller
Now I have heard it all
--> !!
Mike -- what planet are you from? I liked vpw too, he did some good things, but I am not going to immortalize him. Can you seriously suggest that Jesus would teach from the PFAL booK?????
I wonder if there is a signed, first edition up there in Heavan.
:D--> 
:D--> 
:D-->
Shoot low. Mike is riding a Shetland!
[This message was edited by dmiller on February 02, 2004 at 17:12.]
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dmiller
Brady sorry to let Mike distract me from answering you.
:(--> You started a good thread, and I NEVER refer to vpw as Dr. anymore, tho as some have suggested, he put in the time, but in the wrong place, and thus is worthy of the title
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What The Hay
Just for the record most of the critisims leveled at VPW during his lifetime came right from the religious establishment that he, you and I all grew up in. Frankly I could care less what peoples personal opinions are about VPW - whether they are negative or positive.
CRITICISMS usually start and are directed at the few by the upper echelon of any governing bureucratic establisment (regardless if we happen to be talking about biblical, medical, or scientific establishments) who rigidly regulate the innovation of doctors, researchers and scientists while maintaining and vigorously protecting their own prestigious status quo. Even the criticisms leveled at the elite and most respected men throughout history was often met with the blind and defensive cry of "blasphemy" thereby providing encouragement for the bereaucratic establishment to only perpetrate their own mistakes at the cost of human lives and further human suffering. I'm sure this may sound like an exaggeration to many of you, but history teaches us it is not.
Fear of blasphemy only protects the religious establishment from being critizied itself, as "blasphemy" is the disrespect for persons or things regarded as sacred. This implies that such men are holy and therefore incapable of making mistakes, but even the establishment knows this is not true. It is only hoped by pointing out their mistakes, you and they may once again be alerted to the fact that history may once again be repeating itself.
Luther, Calvin, Wesley were likewise labeled blasphemers by the "protective" religious establishment in their day by those who were embarrased by "something" they did not fully understand themselves, who reacted by only vilifying and ostracizing what many now recognize to be great men of faith.
If history repeats itself, I have little doubt VPW will ultimately be elevated into the same class - like that of Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc. I'm sure you may be wondering if it will happen any time soon. I dare say it will only happen to VPW much like it happened historically to all the other great men of faith - and that only happened to them after all their antagonists died off.
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ex10
VP a "great man of faith?!!!!" On the level of Luther, Calvin, Wesley????
Please tell me you are kidding.....
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Cynic
Mike wrote,
"Could you tell me which pages you are referring to in WWAY?"
*****
Mike,
I was working from memory and thought Wierwille unpacked his assertions about man being sovereign over the acts of God as it concerned the birth of Christ more than I can find that he did. What I wrote seems to have been based on the implications of the following statement by Wierwille (italics added), though I thought there were other statements:
"God's actions are limited by man's believing. And Mary the mother of Jesus was the first woman who believed to the extent that God could create soul-life in her so that she could bring forth God's only-begotten Son."
The above statement is quoted from a hardback edition of The Word's Way that appears to have been published in 1971. The chapter containing it is called "Sons of God: Adoption and Birth." The statement appears on page 80 of the edition I have.
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What The Hay
Well history never kids around. But then, you and I are just a part of the current generation here Ex, just like everyone else is. Each generation believes they know so much more than the previous generation, and believes the previous generation had been extremely backward and handicapped in both their knowledge and capabilities. I think even Mike here recognizes this to some extent, but his position is more that people are simply relying on their "faulty memories" of what happen rather than the written record of what transpired.
But all this only brings up the dilemma that the current generation of which you and I are a part of now (which of course, we will only be the previous generation for the next generation) must, therefore, also be backward and handicapped in both our knowledge and capabilities.
Let me take a break from putting this forth merely from a biblical perspective and put this in medical terms and from a medical perspective which I think you might identify with more readily. Imagine taking a time trip back in time to visit the office of the modern doctor of the last century, who was also the product of the prestigious governing establishment. To your horror, a scruffy doctor who had just finished an autopsy would enter the room and begin to treat you with dirty unwashed hands.
Painless surgery was becoming popular due to the advent of anesthesia. An abdominal complaint could result in a go-in-blind-and-find procedure being recommended, but only after a little blood letting which was also popular at the time. Then if you bled too much during the surgery, any un-typed blood could be administered to you.
But if you bled too much during surgery, you just might feel like screaming at the ruling establishment to change their archaic medical procedures. But this type of blasphemy, however, may have gotten you thrown in jail where you would most certainly have been humiliated and vilified for daring to criticize the medical authorities of the day.
VPW was just someone we knew who happened to end up screaming at the ruling religious establishment because of what he happened to see in the bibilical field - and he also helped many of us to see the same things he saw. The ruling religious establishment was very quick to label him a "blasphemer", (and many of us ended up wearing the same labels he did - a blasphemer, cult follower, etc.) but all that accomplished was simply remove the focus from their own mistakes (which also resulted in many people being hurt and in much human suffering) to his mistakes.
We are all capable of making mistakes. The result is people end up getting hurt. Unfortunately human nature is more apt and quick and at shifting the blame and the focus off my mistake to your mistake, rather than simply fix the mistake itself. Why? Because this usually takes more energy, resources, time, money etc. of which nobody apparently seems to ever have enough of, regardless of whatever field of endeavor you may be involved it - be it biblical, scientific, or medical.
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ex10
So what is VP's contribution to history, exactly? I think I've missed something here.
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rascal
What the Hay .... the problem with vp is very clear when you read galations where the atributes listed of a *man of the flesh* are measured against those of a *man after the spirit*
There is one catagory that the majority of vp`s habits and character placed him in...
THAT is what history will show....
Character is determined by how you act when NOBODY is watching....
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Cynic
The establishment didn't care for Charles Manson, Jim Jones and David Koresh, either.
Being a pariah is not necessarily a sign of one's greatness.
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