I agree a bit with something WTH said a while back.
VP's ways will never go away.
He himself may not be a giant of Christian history, but a lesser fellow of the greater movement, which has certainly changed modern Christianity.
PFAL may someday be canonized in some Christian sub-section of bookstores.
NOTHING ever truly goes away.
And enough people were fully baptized in TWI and cults and strip mall, camp-out ministries of its kin, that the exponential multiplication is probably going to be off the charts. I see it in all the other Christian forums I visit, too. Its pretty wierd.
I even saw this cable show where this ole catholic scholar type guy was teaching biblical research principles and such.
Being an PFAL grad, I know what I heard. It was like this guy was teaching from PFAL. Same verses. Same principles. Everything.
Well Goey, it has always been my understanding this forum is a place to openly and freely share ideas for discussion and debate, be they mine, yours, or anybody elses - whether they happen to be popular or not. But apparently that is not what you want this forum to be - a place to freely and openly discuss and debate ideas.
Do you think I am going to take you seriously, especailly when you come off like a "brown-noser" - maybe you're just part of the GS commumunity establishment interested only in maintaining the status-quo? What do you think you are protecting people from? Are you trying to protect them from aquiring knowledge that might damage your credibility? It pretty much sounds like it to me.
First off, nobody is paying me to post here, so don't go over the edge and accuse me of plagerizing Hoffer. When people start paying me for posting my own ideas or anybody elses for that matter, I'll ensure everybody gets due credit for whatever they've said as I might be required to pay royalties or something like that, but that surely hasn't happened here yet, and it probably never likely will. The mere fact you even bothered to check out what I said only proves I have something valid to contribute to the discussion. Just how many people bother to look into and check out what you say? Probably not many, which is proabably why your "green-eye jealousy" is showing.
Heck, I'm not going to complain if you or anybody else wants to check out my sources. In fact that is what VPW encouraged me and a whole lot of other people to do with his research. That is one of the reasons I don't buy into a lot of the plagarism BS leveled at him either.
VPW said - "DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT - READ IT FOR YOURSELF" and he wasn't just talking about the bible. When I first came to TWI I was highly encouraged by him to check out what he said. VPW highly encouraged someone to check into what he said and for YOU to aquire the knowledge for yourself - which ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE a fact the "plagerizer accussers" fail to mention. But then, they're just a facet of the status-quo - those who want to hinder someone's learning. But no one learns anything of real value from them, except how to become idiots like they are. Why am I charging them with that?
Because checking into things and doing your own research isn't something highly encouraged even in TWI now. Now they say you don't need to bother with "checking it out", because it's already been researched. Sounds like they equally want to control somebody else's learning as well.
At least I didn't mis-quote Hoffer. You'd probably have a hissy-fit about that to I imagine, and single me out in one of your posts about it. But then maybe not, if your only falling into the same "maintain the status-quo" idiot trap many others have.
One thing is for certain. I'm sure not going to follow whatever "maintain the status-quo" BS rules you or anybody else is trying to lay down that can only hinder somebody else's learning. I already said F*** Y** to them a long time ago.
WTH, Goey being jealous of you has got to be one of the funnier statements I've heard in a long time. Maybe you're just ....ed that he caught you. I was being polite about suggesting how you might present a quote whose source you don't know, but since you're being impolite, let me put it another way: to quote (even for free) without saying that the words are not yours is intellectually dishonest.
And I disagree with you. When VP said "check it out for yourself," he meant read it in the Bible, do the concordance study, for yourself. You couldn't Google a quote back then, and B. G. Leonard's and J. E. Stiles' writings weren't exactly available at the bookstore, ya know?
Well Goey, it has always been my understanding this forum is a place to openly and freely share ideas for discussion and debate, be they mine, yours, or anybody elses - whether they happen to be popular or not. But apparently that is not what you want this forum to be - a place to freely and openly discuss and debate ideas.
...... and so forth and so on, ad nauseum.
Translated to plain English: All this verbiage is just a straw man, whitewashing cover up for someone whom you still see as a great man whose reputation maintainance is paramount to you, regardless of the number of people hurt and abused by VPW. You might have sympathy or even concern for what they have been through, but only so far as it doesn't touch or approach the Holy Reputation of your (and Smikeol's) preciouussssss, Victor Paul Wierwille.
Which is why all your protests about forgiveness, getting over it, 'you're just jealous', quotes that you give (that you don't initially bother to give credit for, $$$ or no $$$), et al, fall flat and are as transparent as glass.
And if it is true (which I don't believe that it is) that it is the True God that did work via Wierwille like you believe He did, ... well then, I'd rather be an atheist, cause nobody needs a diety as limited and as twisted like that.
At all! -->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
careful, WTH, your slip is showing--looks like your panties are a bit bunched, as well...
You seem to know LITTLE of how things were as regards to checking things out and vics spin on research. I was present and so were others, even some on this board, when vic flew into a tantrum cuz HIS ideas (lifted from others at times, as we NOW know) were being questioned. Were you in those meetings when I was and others here were as well?? Apparently your "memory" is a bit "selective" then, cuz he sure was NOT open to any "variant readings" other than his own....
Why not write your "history book" now, wth?? I am sure it will be a breathless read....
Your post reminded me of something....of how VPW absolutely could not stand feedback, that questioned his "conclusions," much less criticism of any kind.
WTH
You posted somewhere, I don't remember where, how criticim didn't affect VP's "stand" on the Word, or something like that. That is so wrong, WTH. If you knew him, you would know how intolerant he was of anybody, no matter who it was, who disagreed with him. A sad truth about who he was.
These things that the plagiarism accusers have allegedly ignored have been discussed and debated countless times here on GS Cafe. That you would bring them up again shows that you haven't the slightest idea what plagiarism is, nor have you given us the courtesy of reading our responses before arrogantly dismissing us as "idiots."
For the record, if I plagiarize, and later tell you I plagiarized, that doesn't absolve the plagiarism.
Second, if I plagiarize, and later tell you that I used other sources in developing my paper, that doesn't absolve the plagiarism.
Third, plagiarism and using sources are NOT synonymous. We all have a PFAL background, but very few of us have committed plagiarism. For example, I do not believe someone who is genuinely speaking in tongues will curse God, and I reject the account someone once presented to me (that a Way believer had spoken in an "evil tongue"). I don't think that's Biblically accurate.
I have now expressed the same basic thought as Wierwille did in Question 8 in the frequently asked questions chapter of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. However, I have not committed plagiarism. Wierwille, asking and answering the same question, committed arguably his most flagrant act of plagiarism, as the question and answer are lifted almost word-for-word from JE Stiles, WHOM HE DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE IN THE BOOK.
That's the difference between plagiarism and expressing the same idea.
So do me a favor, before you call me and others who agree with me "idiots," at least make sure that you are not, in the process, establishing your own claim to the title.
THAT is the legacy of your precious vpw and his oh so special ministry.....you want to call the parents who lost their children forever to the state...the sweet babies that endured the abuse....impotent, overexagerating whiners?????
Yup...THAT is what twi and vpw will be remembered for...I am sure ..
We aren`t all liars.... you who want to rewrite history will NEVER be able to plug up all of the holes...
WTH defends themself with claims that this is a board for openly exchanging ideas... Heres a clue wth .... calling the posters here exagerating whiners and declaring anyone who posted of his crimes as liars is is NOT sharing ideas for discussion and debate....
You come out slamming people here....being disrespectfull...you are going to catch some flack
I heard Fred Price try to teach one section of Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed almost word for word one night on TV, gosh 7 years ago or something, and I kept thinking, "you better get moving or you're not gonna finish this section" and he didn't.
Funny! I'm sure none of the people in that huge auditorium in CA KNEW...but then maybe there were one or two. Who knows...
People do teach from his stuff (sorry John).
WB
Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"
I don't know Fred Price, except that he's a believingequalsreceiving word-faith type of preacher. I don't know nearly enough about him to say with certainty that he would NOT teach from a book written by (ha!) a man Price would consider a Godless Christ-denier. It just strikes me as unlikely.
WB, were you reading along in JCOPS? If not, Wierwille and Price could have been relying on the same source, which would account for the similarities you observed.
well, the story goes that Fred Price took "a" PFAL class back in the St. Louis, MO area circa 1970-71-72. I cannot vouch for this but the story I heard and certain things FP taught in the past seem to suggest the likelihood of the veracity of the account. So, he may have been familiar with vp's teaching on a multitude of subjects.
Of course, FP is and has been in SoCal for a long time and Dr. Martin was in Pasadena so the likelihood of FP being aquainted with his research is quite obvious as well.
I've read several critical pieces against Fred Price. I think if he had taken PFAL or been associated with TWI in any other way, these articles/pamphlets (which were not friendly to Price) would have exploited the connection.
That's not airtight proof, but it's worth notning at the least.
well, see, there's the story. He did not take the class under twi auspices, as far as I heard, nor was he ever involved with twi. And he took the class, AFAIK, from some folks no longer involved themselves but who had in time past, taught it "live" with vp's blessing.
So, you see, he might be free of twi's taint and "stigma" and yet be familiar with PFAL and author, if only indirectly....
ps--these folks ran a black church in Columbus, Ohio at one time-- say, pre 72 or 71. So, in the over all scheme of things, people back then might not have tied together twi and a black church, no matter how remotely...
I have no doubt that you heard that story, and that whoever told you probably believed it. Best response I can think of is: produce a witness. I know, easier said than done. But there's a far more logical explanation for the similarities between Price and Wierwille, one that doesn't involve clandestine classes and secret admiration:
Both teachers studied and echoed the teachings of EW Kenyon. So did Copeland and Hagin.
well, Raf, there is more detail to the story--stuff FP himself has said publicly. And, actually, the stuff I heard FP teach 15 years ago and more was not vic's Kenyon rip-off stuff; it was much more format and material from many different sessions of PFAL. Sorry, Raf--this wasn't some "didja hear who took the class" story I heard. There was a lot of fact and time, date place material combined with statement FP has made about when and where he was when he got turned on to God and the Bible.
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alfakat
we are rollin, bro....
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Goey
The ribs and brisket are in the smoker ....
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Tom Strange
got a keg o' Shiner here... hope it fits in the back of the little red alfa...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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def59
Exactly who, in the greate scheme of things, is going to remember vic for anything once this generation dies out?
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sirguessalot
I agree a bit with something WTH said a while back.
VP's ways will never go away.
He himself may not be a giant of Christian history, but a lesser fellow of the greater movement, which has certainly changed modern Christianity.
PFAL may someday be canonized in some Christian sub-section of bookstores.
NOTHING ever truly goes away.
And enough people were fully baptized in TWI and cults and strip mall, camp-out ministries of its kin, that the exponential multiplication is probably going to be off the charts. I see it in all the other Christian forums I visit, too. Its pretty wierd.
I even saw this cable show where this ole catholic scholar type guy was teaching biblical research principles and such.
Being an PFAL grad, I know what I heard. It was like this guy was teaching from PFAL. Same verses. Same principles. Everything.
It was kinda cute.
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Tom Strange
isn't there a statue or time capsule somewhere?
of course, on the TWI MSNBC commercial, they don't mention him do they?
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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What The Hay
Well Goey, it has always been my understanding this forum is a place to openly and freely share ideas for discussion and debate, be they mine, yours, or anybody elses - whether they happen to be popular or not. But apparently that is not what you want this forum to be - a place to freely and openly discuss and debate ideas.
Do you think I am going to take you seriously, especailly when you come off like a "brown-noser" - maybe you're just part of the GS commumunity establishment interested only in maintaining the status-quo? What do you think you are protecting people from? Are you trying to protect them from aquiring knowledge that might damage your credibility? It pretty much sounds like it to me.
First off, nobody is paying me to post here, so don't go over the edge and accuse me of plagerizing Hoffer. When people start paying me for posting my own ideas or anybody elses for that matter, I'll ensure everybody gets due credit for whatever they've said as I might be required to pay royalties or something like that, but that surely hasn't happened here yet, and it probably never likely will. The mere fact you even bothered to check out what I said only proves I have something valid to contribute to the discussion. Just how many people bother to look into and check out what you say? Probably not many, which is proabably why your "green-eye jealousy" is showing.
Heck, I'm not going to complain if you or anybody else wants to check out my sources. In fact that is what VPW encouraged me and a whole lot of other people to do with his research. That is one of the reasons I don't buy into a lot of the plagarism BS leveled at him either.
VPW said - "DONT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT - READ IT FOR YOURSELF" and he wasn't just talking about the bible. When I first came to TWI I was highly encouraged by him to check out what he said. VPW highly encouraged someone to check into what he said and for YOU to aquire the knowledge for yourself - which ALWAYS HAS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE a fact the "plagerizer accussers" fail to mention. But then, they're just a facet of the status-quo - those who want to hinder someone's learning. But no one learns anything of real value from them, except how to become idiots like they are. Why am I charging them with that?
Because checking into things and doing your own research isn't something highly encouraged even in TWI now. Now they say you don't need to bother with "checking it out", because it's already been researched. Sounds like they equally want to control somebody else's learning as well.
At least I didn't mis-quote Hoffer. You'd probably have a hissy-fit about that to I imagine, and single me out in one of your posts about it. But then maybe not, if your only falling into the same "maintain the status-quo" idiot trap many others have.
One thing is for certain. I'm sure not going to follow whatever "maintain the status-quo" BS rules you or anybody else is trying to lay down that can only hinder somebody else's learning. I already said F*** Y** to them a long time ago.
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shazdancer
WTH, Goey being jealous of you has got to be one of the funnier statements I've heard in a long time. Maybe you're just ....ed that he caught you. I was being polite about suggesting how you might present a quote whose source you don't know, but since you're being impolite, let me put it another way: to quote (even for free) without saying that the words are not yours is intellectually dishonest.
And I disagree with you. When VP said "check it out for yourself," he meant read it in the Bible, do the concordance study, for yourself. You couldn't Google a quote back then, and B. G. Leonard's and J. E. Stiles' writings weren't exactly available at the bookstore, ya know?
Shaz
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Oakspear
Sure Wierwille said to "read it yourself", but the interpretation was his alone or find another cult to hang out with.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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GarthP2000
Translated to plain English: All this verbiage is just a straw man, whitewashing cover up for someone whom you still see as a great man whose reputation maintainance is paramount to you, regardless of the number of people hurt and abused by VPW. You might have sympathy or even concern for what they have been through, but only so far as it doesn't touch or approach the Holy Reputation of your (and Smikeol's) preciouussssss, Victor Paul Wierwille.
Which is why all your protests about forgiveness, getting over it, 'you're just jealous', quotes that you give (that you don't initially bother to give credit for, $$$ or no $$$), et al, fall flat and are as transparent as glass.
And if it is true (which I don't believe that it is) that it is the True God that did work via Wierwille like you believe He did, ... well then, I'd rather be an atheist, cause nobody needs a diety as limited and as twisted like that.
At all!
-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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alfakat
careful, WTH, your slip is showing--looks like your panties are a bit bunched, as well...
You seem to know LITTLE of how things were as regards to checking things out and vics spin on research. I was present and so were others, even some on this board, when vic flew into a tantrum cuz HIS ideas (lifted from others at times, as we NOW know) were being questioned. Were you in those meetings when I was and others here were as well?? Apparently your "memory" is a bit "selective" then, cuz he sure was NOT open to any "variant readings" other than his own....
Why not write your "history book" now, wth?? I am sure it will be a breathless read....
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ex10
alfa
Your post reminded me of something....of how VPW absolutely could not stand feedback, that questioned his "conclusions," much less criticism of any kind.
WTH
You posted somewhere, I don't remember where, how criticim didn't affect VP's "stand" on the Word, or something like that. That is so wrong, WTH. If you knew him, you would know how intolerant he was of anybody, no matter who it was, who disagreed with him. A sad truth about who he was.
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Raf
WTH:
These things that the plagiarism accusers have allegedly ignored have been discussed and debated countless times here on GS Cafe. That you would bring them up again shows that you haven't the slightest idea what plagiarism is, nor have you given us the courtesy of reading our responses before arrogantly dismissing us as "idiots."
For the record, if I plagiarize, and later tell you I plagiarized, that doesn't absolve the plagiarism.
Second, if I plagiarize, and later tell you that I used other sources in developing my paper, that doesn't absolve the plagiarism.
Third, plagiarism and using sources are NOT synonymous. We all have a PFAL background, but very few of us have committed plagiarism. For example, I do not believe someone who is genuinely speaking in tongues will curse God, and I reject the account someone once presented to me (that a Way believer had spoken in an "evil tongue"). I don't think that's Biblically accurate.
I have now expressed the same basic thought as Wierwille did in Question 8 in the frequently asked questions chapter of Receiving the Holy Spirit Today. However, I have not committed plagiarism. Wierwille, asking and answering the same question, committed arguably his most flagrant act of plagiarism, as the question and answer are lifted almost word-for-word from JE Stiles, WHOM HE DOES NOT ACKNOWLEDGE IN THE BOOK.
That's the difference between plagiarism and expressing the same idea.
So do me a favor, before you call me and others who agree with me "idiots," at least make sure that you are not, in the process, establishing your own claim to the title.
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rascal
WTH..check out the child abuse thread...
THAT is the legacy of your precious vpw and his oh so special ministry.....you want to call the parents who lost their children forever to the state...the sweet babies that endured the abuse....impotent, overexagerating whiners?????
Yup...THAT is what twi and vpw will be remembered for...I am sure ..
We aren`t all liars.... you who want to rewrite history will NEVER be able to plug up all of the holes...
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rascal
WTH defends themself with claims that this is a board for openly exchanging ideas... Heres a clue wth .... calling the posters here exagerating whiners and declaring anyone who posted of his crimes as liars is is NOT sharing ideas for discussion and debate....
You come out slamming people here....being disrespectfull...you are going to catch some flack
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alfakat
well put, rascal.
ok, now for your spin, wth: ...
.
.
.
....
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waterbuffalo
Sirguessalot,
I heard Fred Price try to teach one section of Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed almost word for word one night on TV, gosh 7 years ago or something, and I kept thinking, "you better get moving or you're not gonna finish this section" and he didn't.
Funny! I'm sure none of the people in that huge auditorium in CA KNEW...but then maybe there were one or two. Who knows...
People do teach from his stuff (sorry John).
WB
Asked why he began studying Greek at age 94, Oliver Wendell Holmes replied,"Well, my good sir, it's now or never!"
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alfakat
WB--have you considered that Fred might have been teaching from Earnest Martin's stuff?? ya know vic got a LOT of JCOPS from him, doncha????
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Raf
That was my instinct, too, alfakat.
I don't know Fred Price, except that he's a believingequalsreceiving word-faith type of preacher. I don't know nearly enough about him to say with certainty that he would NOT teach from a book written by (ha!) a man Price would consider a Godless Christ-denier. It just strikes me as unlikely.
WB, were you reading along in JCOPS? If not, Wierwille and Price could have been relying on the same source, which would account for the similarities you observed.
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alfakat
well, the story goes that Fred Price took "a" PFAL class back in the St. Louis, MO area circa 1970-71-72. I cannot vouch for this but the story I heard and certain things FP taught in the past seem to suggest the likelihood of the veracity of the account. So, he may have been familiar with vp's teaching on a multitude of subjects.
Of course, FP is and has been in SoCal for a long time and Dr. Martin was in Pasadena so the likelihood of FP being aquainted with his research is quite obvious as well.
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Raf
I've read several critical pieces against Fred Price. I think if he had taken PFAL or been associated with TWI in any other way, these articles/pamphlets (which were not friendly to Price) would have exploited the connection.
That's not airtight proof, but it's worth notning at the least.
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alfakat
well, see, there's the story. He did not take the class under twi auspices, as far as I heard, nor was he ever involved with twi. And he took the class, AFAIK, from some folks no longer involved themselves but who had in time past, taught it "live" with vp's blessing.
So, you see, he might be free of twi's taint and "stigma" and yet be familiar with PFAL and author, if only indirectly....
ps--these folks ran a black church in Columbus, Ohio at one time-- say, pre 72 or 71. So, in the over all scheme of things, people back then might not have tied together twi and a black church, no matter how remotely...
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Raf
I have no doubt that you heard that story, and that whoever told you probably believed it. Best response I can think of is: produce a witness. I know, easier said than done. But there's a far more logical explanation for the similarities between Price and Wierwille, one that doesn't involve clandestine classes and secret admiration:
Both teachers studied and echoed the teachings of EW Kenyon. So did Copeland and Hagin.
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alfakat
well, Raf, there is more detail to the story--stuff FP himself has said publicly. And, actually, the stuff I heard FP teach 15 years ago and more was not vic's Kenyon rip-off stuff; it was much more format and material from many different sessions of PFAL. Sorry, Raf--this wasn't some "didja hear who took the class" story I heard. There was a lot of fact and time, date place material combined with statement FP has made about when and where he was when he got turned on to God and the Bible.
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