It sounds to me like you are saying that because you disagree with others' conclusions they are not credible witnesses.
I don't know what your experience of VPW was, or how "involved" you were with him, his organization, or his teachings. But I assure you, many of us were very involved, for many years of our lives. It seems to me that would be the basis of any "credibility issues." Not how anybody feels about it.
I respect that you disagree with others' assessments of their time spent in TWI, but it seems kinda dishonest to say that they aren't credible because you disagree.
The truth is that nobody really knows if VPW was repentant or not at the end of his life. But his actions didn't reflect the change that repentance requires.
WTH, nobody is telling you how you have to feel about VPW. It's a complicated issue for many of us. We all have to sort it out for ourselves, and come to a conclusion we can live with. There is no law at Greasespot that says we all have to agree on anything much less everything concerning VPW. That would put us all right back where we came from, now wouldn't it?
If you are looking for a balanced view, only you can decide for yourself what that might be, just as we all have to do the same.
But it seems a shame to me, to so quickly dismiss the richness of this place and the shared experiences and comraderie. But again, it's your choice.
VP. was a grifter and a showman...he played his charismatic personality to the hilt. He loved the high livin' and all the young girls but most of all...he loved the attention. He craved the adoration of his minions as a crackwhore does their pipe.
The fact that he taught his hybrid doctrines with such flair and effectiveness fed into this "Napolean-like" complex and both justified and intensified his cravings for more and more adoration. He was always uncomfortable if he wasn't the center of attention.
At the end of his life he realized that he had turned over his entire empire to Moe Howard and he became bitter. The most amazing thing to me, even to this day, is how well he had trained Howard to catch his jacket when he threw it off stage.......
You read some fancy writing from VPW, all done in the song-and-dance mode of 'cryin - I am a sinner ((SOB))' Jimmy Swaggart, and this is your response?
quote: Therefore my conclusion regarding this poster testimony is - they have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to making judgments regarding the life of VPW, regardless of whatever their "shared experience and sentement" among the posters of VPW at GS Cafe happen to be.
Man, talk about a gullible fool! You'd sacrifice the 1st hand witness of many of your Christian sisters-in-Christ because VPW did his oft crooned "I wish I were the man I know to be" etc. song, ad nauseum?!
Doesn't the number of witnesses against VPW's legacy mean anything to you? One man (VPW) witness against hundreds, if not *thousands* of those who have either directly experienced VPW, or have known first hand those who have. What does the Bible say about weighing the testimony of one against so many, hmmm?
And please spare us the bringing up of VPW's integrity; cause he clearly didn't have any, regardless of the Bible that he taught. As it turns out, he was more than just a well meaning preacher who did some 'oops' along the way. He used his leadership position and his 'father figure' status to manipulate and abuse many. The many witnesses that I mentioned clearly attest to that.
And you would have us believe that God would exhalt such a man to an example of 'believing the Word'? Heck, if God can't do any better than that, ... I wouldn't have anything to do with that kind of dead religion.
Yeah, thats what I called it: a dead religion. :o-->
I've long given up on the VPW and PFAL version of God, pal. And I imagine quite a number here have too. And as far as I'm concerned, you clearly have no better alternative to consider.
-->
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
vpw HURT us..he USED us....he callously tossed us aside when all usefullness was exhausted.
This man did these things to good people...your brothers and sisters in Christ...IN GOD`S NAME!!!! and yet you want to venerate and revere him... while backhanding those who endured his spitefull usage....this makes you a mighty sorry character yourself, wth...really creepy.
All I can say is ...sa good thing that God still cares for us whether we idolize vp or not... eh? You got no business calling us liars...trust me...HE knows the score.
No Ex, I did not say I disagreed with other's conclusions here. What I stated was "many have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW and therefore one can't rely heavily on these conclusions - either by the antagonists or by the apologists. I neither completely believe it or disbelieve it.
InvisableDan stated:
quote: But that all depends on who writes the history books.
One thing that is certain is: History is NEVER certain. The only thing certain about history is this - and that is, there are patterns that establish themselves and at times history finds itself at a turning point - or even many turning points. Those points are what are known as points of divergence. (POD's)
I believe it was Winston Churchill who said, "History is that account of the past that is acceptable to a given community at a given time."
If what Churchhill said is true, then whatever accounting of the past that's currently acceptable among the GS Cafe community at this particular given time (whether of VPW or of other things) will only be seen as counterfactuals in logic by the next commununity that comes along (or by "the next generation" as I put it) when it becomes a POD.
Yes Rascal, VPW hurt us. I am not going to deny that fact. But then he also helped many of us at the same time, so I am not going to deny that fact either. To deny one fact over the other is only "embellishing your sentiments and experiences" which I refuse to do, but then, apparently many here do not.
No hear me please what the hay...he HURT us and he NEVER cared....He just kept using and hurting.. O
One person I have spoken to refused him sexually ...he threw her off of the wow field and told her whole innie family that she was possessed ...so loaded with ds that they were to believe NOTHING she said......and vpw being the man of God...the family BOUGHT it...this young girl not only lost ALL of her ministry friends ...but the respect and confidence of her family as well.......can you IMAGINE??? WTH... He not only tried to intimidate a
wonderfull young believer who was simply out on the wow field trying to serve God...when refused he threw a hissy fit and lied without compunction...he lied to cover his butt and to get back at anyone who would DARE refuse him ...
I understand that you do not want to believe that vpw was a predator... one who prayed uppon folks who simply wanted to b closer to God...but please don`t brand us liars in your zeal
Your brothers and sisters in Christ...people who were earnestly seeking God...people who turned to vp because he told us HE had all of the answeres....
There are those here wth...more than one who endured the same treatment....just ask...we are not all liars...
Do you know that Mrs.W knew?? that she cried and cried over the brutal callousness with which vpw ignored her feelings of his sexual activities??? Told her if she didn`t like it to lEAVE???
Wth this isn`t us slamming a dead man...this is about letting people know he was a very mean man who pretended to be a man of God...
One last thing...I`d like you to consider how in the bible God said that if you couldn`t love your brtheren that you COULD see...you couldn`t love God whom you couldn`t.....Please wth...he did NOT love the people that he used and tossed aside.
I have NO doubt that vp hellped some people...but the bible talks about that as well...talks about even the evil folks are willing and capable of helping those they like...no honor in that...
Wth I understand your experiences were good in twi...many of mine were too when not dealing with particular leadership...or refusing to obey a directive...
Most abusers ARE nice to folks ...they masquerade as baseball coaches as scout leaders...one I heard of was a karate teacher...ministers...see ...they HAVE to get peoples confidence ....most that are close to them have no clue.... they have to be a pillar of the community....or they will not have access to anyone.
The neighbor who *enjoyed* himself sexually with me on a regular basis when I was a little girl was a fine upstanding member of a upper middle class neighborhood...married, good job...everybody liked and respected him....well enough to let their kiddoes go on day trips with him his wife and his dog...Do you think that they would ever have believed a little girl...when he did so much for everybody else??? seemed so nice??? THATS how they get away with it!~I am not even sure his wife knew...or whether it was just convenient when she disappeared...sigh
It is hard to accept that one whom you respected could not be what they portrayed themselves to be...I understand that...but consider that just because you personally enjoyed some benefit from what he taught....ALL of us DID!!!!! it still doesn`t make him a wholesome individual...or us evil for being angry at his callous use and disregard of life....these are sweet good people that you want to flush down the crapper because vp did.
quote:Yes Rascal, VPW hurt us. I am not going to deny that fact. But then he also helped many of us at the same time, so I am not going to deny that fact either. To deny one fact over the other is only "embellishing your sentiments and experiences" which I refuse to do, but then, apparently many here do not.
What the Hay,
I'm with you on this point. It just doesn't matter to some folks anything good VPW did, it just doesn't matter, because he was nothing more than an evil monster to some. No matter who he helped along the way. His good works don't matter to some because they are quite blinded by hate of the man. There is simply no objectivity left.
Just because someone isn't afraid to talk about the harm VP did, doesn't mean they are blinded by hate. Sheesh, it has to be all or nothing with some people, doesn't it?
quote:C) There was some merit in things we learned, but it wasn't ALL
meritorious.
There were times he may well have sincerely helped people out of
genuine altruism, and other times he ground them up and threw
them out.
There were times he regretted of his sins, and then times he
went out and did them again.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I think What the Hay and I are talking about those folks who don't care what good VPW did, he was EVIL. Period. After all, Adolph Hitler did some good things too, right?
You certainly aren't denying there are folks here who think that way, are you?
To prove this point, why is it that when someone says they received some godliness at the hands of VPW and TWI, it just simply doesn't matter to some folks. That's a fact. Who cares what good was done? People got hurt. The hurt is more important. The evil is all that matters.
You don't deny some folks have advanced that viewpoint, do you?
I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer once gave money to a homeless guy. And I know for a fact that he resisted the temptation to eat people far more often than he succumbed to it, so we should really weigh his life in that perspective.
Yet somehow, that doesn't seem to matter to people who insist on calling him a serial killing cannibal. I don't get it.
quote: After all, Adolph Hitler did some good things too, right?
HITLER????
Ummmmmmmmmmm...that's a bit of a stretch there darlin'. That's kinda like saying Bin Laden was a bad man, but at least he didn't aim the planes at a preschool or sumthin'.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
I am NOT blinded by hate of this man...I AM however, disgusted ...revolted..apalled..sickened furious for what he did ...but I NOT blinded...
Blinded by Hate?? Maybe YOU are blinded by love oldies....does it matter either way ??? It really IS still *blindness* isnt` it?
Just because you like him personally, or that vpw once did you a personal service....it does not excuse his guilt or excuse the *sins* or make his crimes any less heinous....
I am sorry...no matter WHAT this man did for you personally....that he could do these other things to folks...makes him an a number one creep...ESPE
CIALLY since he was representing God and manipulating scripture to aquire that which he desired...and that he would use that same bible and his authority as God`s representative to bring hurt and shame to those who thwarted his efforts....He used all within his power to *mess* em up good.
Guys.... that you value what he did for you above the harm he did to many...that you want to count the pain and humiliation that we suffered as acceptable because of the benefits you personally recieved is really nasty...
I would feel dirty ... contaminated enjoying anything that came at the expense of our dear bretheren... go ahead though...the price of your *blessing* was paid...the cost was dear ...but the tab was paid ENJOY!
quote:I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer once gave money to a homeless guy. And I know for a fact that he resisted the temptation to eat people far more often than he succumbed to it, so we should really weigh his life in that perspective.
Why is it so important for some folks to make comparisons like this? VPW wasn't a murder or a cannibal but let's just think the worst. Like I said, it doesn't matter what good he did, he was a monster to some folks.
But here's the consensus (others feel more strongly, but most agree on the following)...
He committed serial acts of adultery and justified it with a tainted interpretation of scripture.
He slandered and expelled those who confronted him.
He pretended to write things he did not write.
He pretended to research things he did not research.
He pretended God intervened in his life via two snowstorms, at least one of which most definitely did not happen (most feel neither happened, but in deference to the miniscule possibilities raised by others, I'll decline from insisting on this point). He did this in order to claim some kind of supernatural stamp of approval on his ministry, and since at least one of those did not happen, we are obliged to question his integrity on the matter.
And that's without even MENTIONING money.
These were not things he did in his private life.
THESE ARE THINGS HE DID IN HIS MINISTRY, IN GOD'S NAME.
Those are the consensus points. So did he ever pray? Sure he did. Did he lead people to Christ? Of course he did. But are we supposed to ignore the harm he did to God's people? Not on your life.
Oldies, why is it so important NOT to remember the harm done by a cult leader who used (usurped?) his position in the body of Christ to harm people? Why is it so important NOT to hold him up as a warning to others? Because in SPITE of whatever good he did (and he did do some good), Victor Paul Wierwille has a badly tainted legacy.
I'm sorry, but when you twist God's Word to your own lascivious ends, you don't get a "Get out of bad memories free" card. You get the legacy you earn.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on February 11, 2004 at 13:18.]
quote:Guys.... that you value what he did for you above the harm he did to many...that you want to count the pain and humiliation that we suffered as acceptable because of the benefits you personally recieved is really nasty...
I would feel dirty ... contaminated enjoying anything that came at the expense of our dear bretheren... go ahead though...the price of your *blessing* was paid...the cost was dear ...but the tab was paid ENJOY!
The price of my blessing was paid by Jesus Christ at the cross... at one time communicated to me aptly by VPW and others. You choose to unrelentingly focus on your hurt and disgust of VP. You don't care about anything else.
If I choose to focus on the disgust I feel for this mans actions.......it doesn`t mean that I don`t care about anything else...it MEANS that his actions were reprehensible...PERIOD!
In order for YOU to recieve YOUR communication from vpw....OTHERS paid the tab by their sacrifice to sate vpw`s lusts...
He was filthy nasty dirty....but thats ok because you benefited personally from your contact with him...because you got some good out of that...you don`t want anyone to know what a criminal he was...that makes you reprehensible as well.
Like I said ...your bretheren paid the price....ENJOY!
quote:In order for YOU to recieve YOUR communication from vpw....OTHERS paid the tab by their sacrifice to sate vpw`s lusts...
This is the exact reason why you are blinded by hatred and can't reason much of anything else. It doesn't matter what godliness he did, because even the good has an evil connotation. IT WAS evil in your eyes.
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ex10
WTH,
It sounds to me like you are saying that because you disagree with others' conclusions they are not credible witnesses.
I don't know what your experience of VPW was, or how "involved" you were with him, his organization, or his teachings. But I assure you, many of us were very involved, for many years of our lives. It seems to me that would be the basis of any "credibility issues." Not how anybody feels about it.
I respect that you disagree with others' assessments of their time spent in TWI, but it seems kinda dishonest to say that they aren't credible because you disagree.
The truth is that nobody really knows if VPW was repentant or not at the end of his life. But his actions didn't reflect the change that repentance requires.
WTH, nobody is telling you how you have to feel about VPW. It's a complicated issue for many of us. We all have to sort it out for ourselves, and come to a conclusion we can live with. There is no law at Greasespot that says we all have to agree on anything much less everything concerning VPW. That would put us all right back where we came from, now wouldn't it?
If you are looking for a balanced view, only you can decide for yourself what that might be, just as we all have to do the same.
But it seems a shame to me, to so quickly dismiss the richness of this place and the shared experiences and comraderie. But again, it's your choice.
I wish you the best in making sense of it all.
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Groucho
VP. was a grifter and a showman...he played his charismatic personality to the hilt. He loved the high livin' and all the young girls but most of all...he loved the attention. He craved the adoration of his minions as a crackwhore does their pipe.
The fact that he taught his hybrid doctrines with such flair and effectiveness fed into this "Napolean-like" complex and both justified and intensified his cravings for more and more adoration. He was always uncomfortable if he wasn't the center of attention.
At the end of his life he realized that he had turned over his entire empire to Moe Howard and he became bitter. The most amazing thing to me, even to this day, is how well he had trained Howard to catch his jacket when he threw it off stage.......
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GarthP2000
What The Hell,
You read some fancy writing from VPW, all done in the song-and-dance mode of 'cryin - I am a sinner ((SOB))' Jimmy Swaggart, and this is your response?
Man, talk about a gullible fool! You'd sacrifice the 1st hand witness of many of your Christian sisters-in-Christ because VPW did his oft crooned "I wish I were the man I know to be" etc. song, ad nauseum?!
Doesn't the number of witnesses against VPW's legacy mean anything to you? One man (VPW) witness against hundreds, if not *thousands* of those who have either directly experienced VPW, or have known first hand those who have. What does the Bible say about weighing the testimony of one against so many, hmmm?
And please spare us the bringing up of VPW's integrity; cause he clearly didn't have any, regardless of the Bible that he taught. As it turns out, he was more than just a well meaning preacher who did some 'oops' along the way. He used his leadership position and his 'father figure' status to manipulate and abuse many. The many witnesses that I mentioned clearly attest to that.
And you would have us believe that God would exhalt such a man to an example of 'believing the Word'? Heck, if God can't do any better than that, ... I wouldn't have anything to do with that kind of dead religion.
Yeah, thats what I called it: a dead religion.
:o-->
I've long given up on the VPW and PFAL version of God, pal. And I imagine quite a number here have too. And as far as I'm concerned, you clearly have no better alternative to consider.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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rascal
vpw HURT us..he USED us....he callously tossed us aside when all usefullness was exhausted.
This man did these things to good people...your brothers and sisters in Christ...IN GOD`S NAME!!!! and yet you want to venerate and revere him... while backhanding those who endured his spitefull usage....this makes you a mighty sorry character yourself, wth...really creepy.
All I can say is ...sa good thing that God still cares for us whether we idolize vp or not... eh? You got no business calling us liars...trust me...HE knows the score.
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What The Hay
No Ex, I did not say I disagreed with other's conclusions here. What I stated was "many have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW and therefore one can't rely heavily on these conclusions - either by the antagonists or by the apologists. I neither completely believe it or disbelieve it.
InvisableDan stated:
One thing that is certain is: History is NEVER certain. The only thing certain about history is this - and that is, there are patterns that establish themselves and at times history finds itself at a turning point - or even many turning points. Those points are what are known as points of divergence. (POD's)
I believe it was Winston Churchill who said, "History is that account of the past that is acceptable to a given community at a given time."
If what Churchhill said is true, then whatever accounting of the past that's currently acceptable among the GS Cafe community at this particular given time (whether of VPW or of other things) will only be seen as counterfactuals in logic by the next commununity that comes along (or by "the next generation" as I put it) when it becomes a POD.
Yes Rascal, VPW hurt us. I am not going to deny that fact. But then he also helped many of us at the same time, so I am not going to deny that fact either. To deny one fact over the other is only "embellishing your sentiments and experiences" which I refuse to do, but then, apparently many here do not.
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rascal
No hear me please what the hay...he HURT us and he NEVER cared....He just kept using and hurting.. O
One person I have spoken to refused him sexually ...he threw her off of the wow field and told her whole innie family that she was possessed ...so loaded with ds that they were to believe NOTHING she said......and vpw being the man of God...the family BOUGHT it...this young girl not only lost ALL of her ministry friends ...but the respect and confidence of her family as well.......can you IMAGINE??? WTH... He not only tried to intimidate a
wonderfull young believer who was simply out on the wow field trying to serve God...when refused he threw a hissy fit and lied without compunction...he lied to cover his butt and to get back at anyone who would DARE refuse him ...
I understand that you do not want to believe that vpw was a predator... one who prayed uppon folks who simply wanted to b closer to God...but please don`t brand us liars in your zeal
Your brothers and sisters in Christ...people who were earnestly seeking God...people who turned to vp because he told us HE had all of the answeres....
There are those here wth...more than one who endured the same treatment....just ask...we are not all liars...
Do you know that Mrs.W knew?? that she cried and cried over the brutal callousness with which vpw ignored her feelings of his sexual activities??? Told her if she didn`t like it to lEAVE???
Wth this isn`t us slamming a dead man...this is about letting people know he was a very mean man who pretended to be a man of God...
One last thing...I`d like you to consider how in the bible God said that if you couldn`t love your brtheren that you COULD see...you couldn`t love God whom you couldn`t.....Please wth...he did NOT love the people that he used and tossed aside.
I have NO doubt that vp hellped some people...but the bible talks about that as well...talks about even the evil folks are willing and capable of helping those they like...no honor in that...
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rascal
Wth I understand your experiences were good in twi...many of mine were too when not dealing with particular leadership...or refusing to obey a directive...
Most abusers ARE nice to folks ...they masquerade as baseball coaches as scout leaders...one I heard of was a karate teacher...ministers...see ...they HAVE to get peoples confidence ....most that are close to them have no clue.... they have to be a pillar of the community....or they will not have access to anyone.
The neighbor who *enjoyed* himself sexually with me on a regular basis when I was a little girl was a fine upstanding member of a upper middle class neighborhood...married, good job...everybody liked and respected him....well enough to let their kiddoes go on day trips with him his wife and his dog...Do you think that they would ever have believed a little girl...when he did so much for everybody else??? seemed so nice??? THATS how they get away with it!~I am not even sure his wife knew...or whether it was just convenient when she disappeared...sigh
It is hard to accept that one whom you respected could not be what they portrayed themselves to be...I understand that...but consider that just because you personally enjoyed some benefit from what he taught....ALL of us DID!!!!! it still doesn`t make him a wholesome individual...or us evil for being angry at his callous use and disregard of life....these are sweet good people that you want to flush down the crapper because vp did.
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oldiesman
What the Hay,
I'm with you on this point. It just doesn't matter to some folks anything good VPW did, it just doesn't matter, because he was nothing more than an evil monster to some. No matter who he helped along the way. His good works don't matter to some because they are quite blinded by hate of the man. There is simply no objectivity left.
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ex10
Oh good grief
Just because someone isn't afraid to talk about the harm VP did, doesn't mean they are blinded by hate. Sheesh, it has to be all or nothing with some people, doesn't it?
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WordWolf
Must there only be two points of view?
A) VPW was a shining example who was fully justified in what
little harm he may have caused
B) VPW was a manipulative evil troglodyte who only came out of
his cave to peddle some slick new way to garner money, power
and women.
How about all of us who think
C) There was some merit in things we learned, but it wasn't ALL
meritorious.
There were times he may well have sincerely helped people out of
genuine altruism, and other times he ground them up and threw
them out.
There were times he regretted of his sins, and then times he
went out and did them again.
What? Our POV is not valid because we didn't erect those ugly
statues of vpw?
Are we now guilty of vilifying him?
Don't we exist?
I just want to be loved is that so wrong?
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oldiesman
I agree wholeheartedly.
I think What the Hay and I are talking about those folks who don't care what good VPW did, he was EVIL. Period. After all, Adolph Hitler did some good things too, right?
You certainly aren't denying there are folks here who think that way, are you?
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oldiesman
P.S.
To prove this point, why is it that when someone says they received some godliness at the hands of VPW and TWI, it just simply doesn't matter to some folks. That's a fact. Who cares what good was done? People got hurt. The hurt is more important. The evil is all that matters.
You don't deny some folks have advanced that viewpoint, do you?
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Raf
I'm sure Jeffrey Dahmer once gave money to a homeless guy. And I know for a fact that he resisted the temptation to eat people far more often than he succumbed to it, so we should really weigh his life in that perspective.
Yet somehow, that doesn't seem to matter to people who insist on calling him a serial killing cannibal. I don't get it.
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oldiesman
If all someone thinks about, cares to listen to, and unrelentingly talks about is the harm VP did, then they are being blinded by hate.
I wouldn't call that behavior a bastion of objectivity, would you?
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jezusfreaky
HITLER????
Ummmmmmmmmmm...that's a bit of a stretch there darlin'. That's kinda like saying Bin Laden was a bad man, but at least he didn't aim the planes at a preschool or sumthin'.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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rascal
I am NOT blinded by hate of this man...I AM however, disgusted ...revolted..apalled..sickened furious for what he did ...but I NOT blinded...
Blinded by Hate?? Maybe YOU are blinded by love oldies....does it matter either way ??? It really IS still *blindness* isnt` it?
Just because you like him personally, or that vpw once did you a personal service....it does not excuse his guilt or excuse the *sins* or make his crimes any less heinous....
I am sorry...no matter WHAT this man did for you personally....that he could do these other things to folks...makes him an a number one creep...ESPE
CIALLY since he was representing God and manipulating scripture to aquire that which he desired...and that he would use that same bible and his authority as God`s representative to bring hurt and shame to those who thwarted his efforts....He used all within his power to *mess* em up good.
Guys.... that you value what he did for you above the harm he did to many...that you want to count the pain and humiliation that we suffered as acceptable because of the benefits you personally recieved is really nasty...
I would feel dirty ... contaminated enjoying anything that came at the expense of our dear bretheren... go ahead though...the price of your *blessing* was paid...the cost was dear ...but the tab was paid ENJOY!
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oldiesman
Why is it so important for some folks to make comparisons like this? VPW wasn't a murder or a cannibal but let's just think the worst. Like I said, it doesn't matter what good he did, he was a monster to some folks.
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rascal
He was dirty Oldies....
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Raf
No, Oldies, Wierwille wasn't a cannibal.
But here's the consensus (others feel more strongly, but most agree on the following)...
He committed serial acts of adultery and justified it with a tainted interpretation of scripture.
He slandered and expelled those who confronted him.
He pretended to write things he did not write.
He pretended to research things he did not research.
He pretended God intervened in his life via two snowstorms, at least one of which most definitely did not happen (most feel neither happened, but in deference to the miniscule possibilities raised by others, I'll decline from insisting on this point). He did this in order to claim some kind of supernatural stamp of approval on his ministry, and since at least one of those did not happen, we are obliged to question his integrity on the matter.
And that's without even MENTIONING money.
These were not things he did in his private life.
THESE ARE THINGS HE DID IN HIS MINISTRY, IN GOD'S NAME.
Those are the consensus points. So did he ever pray? Sure he did. Did he lead people to Christ? Of course he did. But are we supposed to ignore the harm he did to God's people? Not on your life.
Oldies, why is it so important NOT to remember the harm done by a cult leader who used (usurped?) his position in the body of Christ to harm people? Why is it so important NOT to hold him up as a warning to others? Because in SPITE of whatever good he did (and he did do some good), Victor Paul Wierwille has a badly tainted legacy.
I'm sorry, but when you twist God's Word to your own lascivious ends, you don't get a "Get out of bad memories free" card. You get the legacy you earn.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on February 11, 2004 at 13:18.]
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oldiesman
The price of my blessing was paid by Jesus Christ at the cross... at one time communicated to me aptly by VPW and others. You choose to unrelentingly focus on your hurt and disgust of VP. You don't care about anything else.
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rascal
If I choose to focus on the disgust I feel for this mans actions.......it doesn`t mean that I don`t care about anything else...it MEANS that his actions were reprehensible...PERIOD!
In order for YOU to recieve YOUR communication from vpw....OTHERS paid the tab by their sacrifice to sate vpw`s lusts...
He was filthy nasty dirty....but thats ok because you benefited personally from your contact with him...because you got some good out of that...you don`t want anyone to know what a criminal he was...that makes you reprehensible as well.
Like I said ...your bretheren paid the price....ENJOY!
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jezusfreaky
Oldies, you mentioned Hitler.
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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Mike
oldiesman,
Bravo!
*******
What the Hay,
Bravo!
.
.
.
.
.
...I'm going back to my cage now where I can be reached. As much as I'd like to follow (read&respond) this thread, there just isn't enough time...
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oldiesman
This is the exact reason why you are blinded by hatred and can't reason much of anything else. It doesn't matter what godliness he did, because even the good has an evil connotation. IT WAS evil in your eyes.
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