quote:"...the resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them, but rather from their own sense of inadequacy and impotence."
This looks like a bunch of psyco-babble to me.
But also take note that these are not the words of "What the Hay", they are the words of Eric Hoffer and note the they were not properly quoted. Go figure...
quote:I am not denying people have not been dealt with unjustly. It’s that I’ve come to realize many people’s resentment of VPW has sprouted mainly from their own sense of inadequacy and impotence, far more than any injustice(s) they experienced at the hands of VPW.
More of the same -- Hoffer's words slightly rearranged. Kinda like something VPW would have done ...
Oh, what insight! Makes me wanna barf!
Not only do you "borrow" from Hoffer without due credit, you also take him out of context and get confused as to who the "weak" actually are.
Baaah!
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on February 08, 2004 at 3:13.]
Nice find, Goey! I kept wondering why WTH was coming up with all this glorious prose that seemed to make no sense regarding how people regard Wierwille and PFAL.
WhatTheHay, try asking each detractor what they think of Wierwille, instead of trying to paint us all with the same brush. As for me, I don't hate him or resent him, he's dead. I don't think anyone said they wanted to change a dead man. But I am more than happy to alert people to his history of plagiarism, misogyny, and abusive behavior, if it will help others to know that they were not alone, and that they will certainly NOT become "greasespots by midnight."
I also note that you said you did not know the man, yet you seem to discount the stories of those who did. Why should I believe your words over what I saw with my own eyes? Why should I believe your words over the words of those who were there?
Who is impotent? Not me. Who is inadequate? Not me. I don't resent the power Wierwille had. I don't want to run a Bible ministry. I have a life. I have the respect of my peers, and my children. Could Wierwille say the same? When I die, my name will go into obscurity, as will Wierwille's. But at least I tried to make my corner of the world a little better for others. Wierwille tried to prove that The Word of God Is The Will Of God, in order to fulfill his own lusts.
Shaz
[This message was edited by shazdancer on February 07, 2004 at 23:07.]
Yea, that "glorious prose" used by WTH was knocked off from Hoffer - nothing original at all.
Here is the entire quote:
quote:It has often been said that power corrupts. But it is perhaps equally important to realize that weakness, too, corrupts. Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many. Hatred, malice, rudeness, intolerance, and suspicion are the faults of weakness. The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them but from their sense of inadequacy and impotence. We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression. ( Eric Hoffer)
Taken out of context, it can be used in reverse like WTH did.
Here is another "Hofferism"
quote:The weak are not a noble breed. Their sublime deeds of faith, daring, and self-sacrifice usually spring from questionable motives. The weak hate not wickedness but weakness; and one instance of their hatred of weakness is hatred of self. All the passionate pursuits of the weak are in some degree a striving to escape, blur, or disguise an unwanted self. It is a striving shot through with malice, envy, self-deception, and a host of petty impulses; yet it often culminates in superb achievements. (Eric Hoffer)
I would think that this would apply more to the likes of VPW and LCM than to their former folowers or to those whom they opressed or harmed. According to Hoffer VPW and LCM and those like them would be weak ones.
WTH got it backwards ...
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
“I think people like Brady are only here to watch the entertainment, as the reruns and sitcoms on TV have gotten pretty boring.”
What The Hay, I almost missed the above quote because I tend to skim “really fast” through your writings. At least, I haven’t given you the “Mike treatment,” although, it might be my best course of action now. :D-->
The above quote must be a joke, right? Please say yes. Otherwise, it is certainly an unintelligent comment and inference based on false assumptions. I don’t watch reruns or sitcoms on TV. I would fail miserably if I were asked to list the names of the reruns or sitcoms on TV (ay caramba!!). In fact, I’m not much of a TV person, especially, nowadays. If it wasn’t a joke, then, it was surely an irresponsible slip of the tongue and I think there’s a lesson here to be learned. :D-->
Remember what A$$umptions can do to a person. I see way too many assumptions in your writings and psychobabble as well. Thanks to Goey, we now know that much of your “literary productions” aren’t even from you. Also, you have diametrically misstated the facts. It seems to me that you are trying too hard to impress us… and, is not working for you… :D-->
Another quote from What The Hay:
“BTW - At which university did Jesus Christ obtain his doctorate? The record shows he completely stumped all the highly educated Harvard and Princeton professors of his day.”
First, remember this, VP is no JC. :D-->
Additionally, you totally missed my point in regards to “legitimate” accreditation… The aforementioned quote has no correlation whatsoever to my post, nada… I’m speaking of apples and you are thinking of oranges…
I’ll leave you with the same message I left Mike with:
Decoding and coding abilities isn’t your strongest suit, certainly, not the most conspicuous character trait. :D-->
Cheers!
Happy writings!
Brady
[This message was edited by Brady on February 08, 2004 at 12:03.]
"I don't think anyone said they wanted to change a dead man. But I am more than happy to alert people to his history of plagiarism, misogyny, and abusive behavior, if it will help others to know that they were not alone, and that they will certainly NOT become "greasespots by midnight."
I also note that you said you did not know the man, yet you seem to discount the stories of those who did. Why should I believe your words over what I saw with my own eyes? Why should I believe your words over the words of those who were there?"
quote:And he's going to tell us about how godly a man VPW was??
No - NO - NOOO!!! I am not claiming how Godly a man VPW was. Obviously you didn't read my last post too well Garth, or anybody else for that matter. I believe I made the distinction between a man of faith and a man of purity and virtue, and how they don't keep pace with each other.
Goey - I never claimed the quote by Hoeffer to be my words, but it ended up among my words. I wrote the statement down of something that impressed me but I didn't recall who the author was. It was written among other quotes of people who said things that impressed me, like Koestler, but I knew it wasn't Koestler who said it. I just didn't recall who. At least I didn't give credit to Koestler for Hoeffer's statement - which I probably would have done. I was going to post the author of the quote, but you beat me to the punch finding out who made the statement. I have been off-line the past 24 hrs. with computer problems and recently got back on line, so I wasn't able to do a Google search on it.
But how would you know Hoeffer's words apply more to the likes of VPW and LCM rather than former followers of TWI? I've heard the personal testimonies of many TWI followers while they were in, and I can say with certainty many of their testimonies aren't filled with how THEY were pillars of purity and morality. In fact, many of their testimonys are far more appalling as they were trying to "win you to the Lord" (or to get you to take PFAL) by impressing you with how BAAAAAD they were, and how the Lord, [via PFAL - by the way] changed them!!!
Seems more to me like they were the ones that had the "passionate persuit" with "questionable motives" Hoeffer talks about to me. I recall a Rock I attended a number of years ago where some young lady (while I was sitting in the BRC) was relaying to me and to others in the room of what "she did with her body" just to get money to pay for drugs before she took PFAL. The worse part of her personal testimony was, I knew it wasn't something she really wanted to share with me or with anybody else in that room - but somebody CERTAINLY put her up to it. Maybe she had some passionate reason for getting a PFAL class together herself?
But perhaps your own resentment of VPW has caused you to forget these facts, just like it has for many others. Certainly we all have our faults, but hatred, malice, rudness, intolerance, etc., only makes you the weaker person, not the individual of whom you believe you were treated by unjustly.
Hoeffer got it right, so don't you get it backwards just because you may have your own personal issues and personal reasons for "demonizing" the big, bad, VP Werewolf. As Hoeffer aptly said, I can not win the weak by sharing the wealth with them. They will only feel it as oppression.
[This message was edited by What The Hay on February 08, 2004 at 22:53.]
I keep trying to put together what you're saying with what Wierwille's life and work were, and with what people here on Greasespot have said, and it still doesn't mesh. (And btw, next time you want to quote an unknown author, you might try saying something like, "a writer once said..." or "it has been said...," or do the Google search before you quote it.)
You said that Wierwille's great contribution to Christian history was "The Word Of God Is The Will Of God." First of all, my understanding is that that quote originated with B. G. Leonard, not Wierwille. Second, it is certainly an important tenet of faith to many mainstream denominations, even though they may interpret that slightly differently than either Leonard or Wierwille did.
You said,
quote:...that VPW would eventually end up in the annals of history being known as a great man of faith. I said this knowing the statement would cause a stir, but it was most likely construed as though I meant VPW would end up being canonized a saint for all his great acts of moral purity and virtue. That is certainly not what I said, nor is it what I am suggesting or claiming about VPW.
I am sure this is what many DO consider a great man of faith to be, and how one could therefore misconstrue what I said. If their logic were correct, then they must have little to none themselves, as to acquire great moral purity and virtue you would have to be a great man of faith before you acquire it! There's no question we'd all like to see volumes of moral purity and virtue in men who claim to be men of God, but unfortunately, a man's knowledge of God does not keep pace with his faith.
Okay, then by this do you mean to define a "great man of faith" as one with a large or new knowledge of God? I would have defined "man of faith" as one who walked out on the knowledge that he had, i.e. a man of virtue. But what the hay, WhatTheHay, we can go by your definition if you want. I think it is arguable that he brought great new knowledge to this generation.
And I certainly take issue with your declaration that "to acquire great moral purity and virtue you would have to be a great man of faith before you acquire it!" Many have walked out on the little they knew and lived wonderful, loving, kind lives. Some have been motivated to do so only out of an empathy for their fellow man, not because of an understanding of the things of God. So no, I don't think you have to have great spiritual insight to be good. But you would think that those with great Biblical understanding would WANT to be good. So why wasn't Wierwille?
Here's where you totally lose me...
quote:I believe if one is impartial and unbiased, they will discover many of VPW’s faults are interrelated with people's hatred, malice, intolerance and suspicions of him more than anything else. If VPW has only become worse over the years to you, - then welcome aboard the propaganda wagon that’s been rolling down the same old road over the years – except you can now do it over the Internet rather than over the old gossip bar....
As I stated earlier, the resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them, but rather from their own sense of inadequacy and impotence. I am not denying people have not been dealt with unjustly. It’s that I’ve come to realize many people’s resentment of VPW has sprouted mainly from their own sense of inadequacy and impotence, far more than any injustice(s) they experienced at the hands of VPW.
I have heard Gresespotters time and again talk about what VPW did. The only reason his deeds have "gotten worse" (your words) over the years is because more stories have surfaced. In the past, those who told their stories were marked and avoided, rarely to meet others with equally appalling stories. Those who told were painted as blasphemers by [The Way] establishment. Oopsie, better put some of that in quotes, because those are YOUR words about how you think Wierwille was treated!
You say that people who nay-say against Wierwille were morally worse than he was. Um, wrong. SOME have said they were pretty corrupt before they got into TWI, then cleaned up their acts. Others here have never spoken much of their pre-TWI or post-TWI lives. As for me, I was pretty "pure" before TWI, in any category you want to name. So no, I DON'T buy your condemnation, and I DON'T get why a man who learned so much Bible, and supposedly received so much revelation from God, would do what he did with it.
Finally, I don't recall Wierwille being called a blasphemer by any upper echelon of established religion. The "upper echelon" ignored him, probably never heard of him. Many mainstreamers disagreed with him, but I would hardly call that the "upper echelon." The words of Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc. eventually gained acceptance because the masses believed them, and that acceptance gradually filtered upward into the upper echelon. Wierwille will never achieve that kind of acceptance. He will remain in obscurity. The few who revere him are more than offset by those who don't.
What the Hay--get over yourself....your posturing sounds like the attempts of someone unclear of what he is trying to say. I am not interested in the rambling mish-mash of quotes by people YOU cannot even attribute them to...
vp was a hack; deal with it, move on, get over it...all my words, no need to check your sources...Please--You think HE originated "THE WORD OF GOD IS THE WILL OF GOD". ????
On what basis do you possibly think he owns that statement, much less the thought and philosophy the staement implies??? I am much more inclined to ascribe "ownership" of sola scriptura to Luther, though I HIGHLY doubt that he would have "claimed" ownership as I see you think vp "owns" TWOGITWOG....
Initially I was not going to comment or post on this tread as I initailly saw it at somebody else's (Brady in particular) repeated effort to go about demonizing the life and work of VPW. Like that topic hasn't already been over-done on other threads by GS Cafe posters?
Brady stated:
quote: Note: for the most part, with all fairness, he [refering to VPW] will be remembered as a well-intentioned person that became corrupted after obtaining power, sex, and money. And ultimately, as a “failure” because he failed miserably to keep grounded what he built. History has already begun to tell his story.
It is my consensus the majority of people who post here are not the authorities on the life and work of VPW. Many of the people who post on GS Cafe are people who have "axes to grind" because of some injustice they experienced at the hand of VPW. GS Cafe is merely their soapbox for letting off steam at VPW, because they never had the chance to "get even with him", OH but now they can! Oh whoopee - like there's some thrill to be had in digging up the bones of a dead man to crucify him? Well, I guess some people get their "jollies" that way. Brady obviously knows it. This thread has provided more entertainment than any sitcom rerun. I was not implying he watches sitcoms, but he certainly recognizes a higher entertainment value at pitting the VPW antagonists against the VPW apologists.
I only decided to post on this tread because of Brady's statement of: "history already beginning to tell his [VPW's] story" which is his own presumptious and weak arguement - a remark that's well received by the VPW antagonists who have distorted assessments regarding the life and work of VPW - just like the apologists have.
"In all fairness he will be remembered as a well intentioned person etc..." is a remark that is basically downright dishonest. Brady surely isn't speaking for me, or for many of the other people who happend to know VPW firsthand. His conclusion of VPW failing because he never kept grounded with what he built is also erroneous. If that were so, by the same measure the apostle Paul could be considered a failure because the first century church he built also failed to keep ground. It's just a blanket statement by Brady that has no bearing in truth. I'll still take the Word of God as being the truth - regardless of what some numbskulls conclusions about it are.
Brady presents a one-sided, antagonistic view of VPW as being the "ulitmate authority" of the life and work of VPW. And to that I say - BULL....!. A well intentioned person who is honestly looking for the truth regarding VPW's life and work certainly won't find it here! They will only be wading through a lot of highly opinionated BS. I have already concluded they won't get to the truth of VPW's life and work by listening to the antagonists anymore than by listening to the VPW apologists here - like Mike.
That's right. The VPW apologists have distorted conclusions regarding VPW's life and work, just as equally as the VPW antagonists have. Frankly, both conclusions make me want to barf!
Unlike Mike though, I am not here to get you to admire VPW, or to win you back to PFAL, or to talk you into "mastering the PFAL materials" and to throw out your bible in favor of the "PFAL Writtings". (Mike's already working pretty hard on that thread.) It's that I find the antagonistic conclusions regarding VPW to be as absurd as Mike's apologetic conclusions. One of his conclusions would lead someone to the point of believing Jesus is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book instead of the Word of God to judge people by!
My consensus is the next generation will be smarter than either the VPW antagonists or the VPW apologists regardless of how "enlightened" and wise each group considers themselves. The next generation will draw their own conclusions regarding the life and work of VPW.
The only conclusion they'll draw from the posters at GS Cafe will be - both views of VPW are a bunch of "BS"! I came to that conclusion a long time ago, and on this I am practically ahead of everybody else. I'm sorry if that bugs any of you. It certainly doesn't bug me.
quote: It is my consensus the majority of people who post here are not the authorities on the life and work of VPW
Wow! What the Hay
I never thought of myself as being an "authority" of the life and work of VPW, until you wrote that.
But then I thought, geeze, many of us (myself included) were in the way corps, knew PFAL and its progeny backwards and forwards, (I mean like writing the advanced class exam and the tests the apprentice corps and newby in-rez corps took on PFAL material) and knew VPW personally. Many of us spent time with him, being "taught" and "instructed" by him, as well as just "hanging out" with him. If we aren't the experts on his life and teachings, then who is?
"My consensus is the next generation will be smarter than either the VPW antagonists or the VPW apologists regardless of how "enlightened" and wise each group considers themselves. The next generation will draw their own conclusions regarding the life and work of VPW."
But that all depends on who writes the history books.
What do you care what anybody else's conclusions about the life and times of VPW are? You're a thinking human, why not draw your own conclusions from the shared experiences and sentiments of the posters here?
Maybe you're just like the rest of us, trying to make some sense out of our experiences with TWI. Maybe not. Maybe you have another agenda, I don't know. But if you are just trying to sort it all out, being offended at the offenses is just part of the normal process of working through it all. My advice is, don't get stuck there.
It just makes me wonder, from your last post, what exactly you are looking for?
gosh, wth, how lucky we are to have the voice of cool, dispassionate reason among us!!!! Certainly u gotta b da man!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks for your holier than thou, above the fray, wiser-than-wise discourse. Totally useless drivel that it is....and, once again, Paul and vp held up together as if birds of a feather, eh, wth??????????? puhh-leeeze!! Why not examine the record instead of your sugar-coated memories....
Poor wth... are we tarnishing your pristine image of poor ole beleagured vp?
Ex10, I agree...Getting angry over the lies...the mistreatment of our brothers and sisters in Christ...the misuse of resources...IS part of the healing...
Wth ...why do you need to believe so intensly that vp was a good guy? It seems so important that you have to label everyone who really saw the darkness first hand...as liars or overexagerating whiners...
Makes no differance to me what you believe...all that I can say is that you are categorically wrong in your perceptions of vp and us.... stay ignorant as long as it pleases you...
What The Hay, all I’m getting from you are “A$$umptions and Spin.” Backpedaling and spin city are indeed your strongest suit, YET, it doesn’t fool anyone here. My time is too valuable and precious nowadays for useless debates.
FYI, I never had nor do I have any hard feelings towards VP. Not even now. Also, I’m not here to tear him down, although, I do reserve the right to comment or make an observation when I see fit. I’m far from obsessions. I always liked VP because he always treated me well. In fact, I guarded his motor coach on numerous occasions as well as the backstage of the main tent during ROA and big TWI events. Big huge weight lifter Perry Williams an Afro-American guy was always stationed at the front of the stage. During the ROA of 1980, VP who was on the main stage speaking to the congregation had Rev. Gary Curtis summons me to stand next to him in front of the audience with several other believers in order to acknowledge the work we did for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) at Fort Chaffee, Arkansas. So, I have no reason to feel any discontentment towards VP. No hard feelings here.
Additionally, when I left TWI in the mid '80s, I “practically” forgot VP and TWI. Thereafter, in a relatively short time, I “totally” forgot about VP and TWI. Not until this past summer of 2003, out of curiosity, I started to visit this site and began to realize the gravity of the hurt that VP has caused to many people, and only recently, after visiting here for 7 months or so, I decided to share my observations of VP. I have only been compelled to post twice in regards to VP. I repeat, only twice, and the second post, due to the ignorance of some, it has a subdivision elaborating on the legitimatization of a doctoral program. They, were published fairly recently. The first one was a response to a thread and the other one is my open letter, which contains the aforementioned subdivision. Otherwise, he would have continued to be a forgotten entity in my mind if I have not discovered this Web site. Now, he’s only a figment of my imagination. Nothing more. In other words, in regards to you and I, the only person obsessed with VP, is you.
It’s unfortunate to see someone like yourself who possess good writing skills is a bit entangled and distorted with lots of psychobabble. Speaking of entertainment, you are it. Loosen up a bit and let this thread be... if I were you, I’ll do as the great song of the Beatles states, “let it be… let it be…” You are beginning to sound more like, What The Hell (I’m-going-to say-it-anyway) :D-->
A concerned GSer,
Brady
The message below was prompted by a network glitch caused by the negligence of the organization that was supposed to upgrade this site. :D-->
[This message was edited by Brady on February 10, 2004 at 10:53.]
Hey Brady!! I lived in Miami Beach the last time I saw you, my husband (now ex) and 2 kids and I had a way home there in a big white house where we ran lots of "stuff". My kids are all grown up now and I live in Tallahassee. Do you remember????
quote:You're a thinking human, why not draw your own conclusions from the shared experiences and sentiments of the posters here?
I have Ex10. The conclusion I have drawn from posters here are many have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW - both the antagonists and the apologists, and therefore one can't rely heavily on either. I neither completely beleive or disbelieve it all.
For example, one poster wants us to believe VPW is nothing but an unrepentent sinner. If that were so, why then did VPW even bother to write the following:
...for to the very depth of my being I love him [Jesus Christ] with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.
It is he who sought me out from darkness.
It is he who gave me access to God; even now he is my mediator.
It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin.
It is he who gave me the new birth of God's eternal life - which is Christ in me, the hope of glory.
It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins.
It is he who filled me to capacity by God's presence in Christ in all the fullness of God's gift of holy spirit.
It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies.
It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love.
It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God's accurate Word; may I be found faithful in that calling.
It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him.
It is he how is God's only begotten Son.
May I as a son of God live always to glorify the God whom men can only know from God's written Word, the Bible, and from the declared Word, God's Son, Jesus Christ.
In spite of all my human frailties and shortcomings, I endeavor to love him with all my being...
[VPW - page 8,9 of JCING]
Perhaps you want to believe the testimony of a GS poster that these words were written by the "unrepentant sinner, VPW"? Truthfully, I have never heard any unrepentent sinner say such things like this. Therefore my conclusion regarding this poster testimony is - they have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to making judgments regarding the life of VPW, regardless of whatever their "shared experience and sentement" among the posters of VPW at GS Cafe happen to be. This is but one example from practically a million others.
What exactly am I looking for Ex10? I am looking whether or not people have any credibility in their assessment regarding the life and work of VPW. My conclusion is most people do not, even among those who were closest to him. Why do I say that? The reason I say this is, because, humans are both creatures of habit and predictable emotions that preside over logic. Logic most often always takes a back seat.
Therefore we find trends in history that both follow and parallel the trends from religious history, where many a genius has been destroyed by people of far lesser talent defending the status quo. Before you begin to judge a "biblical innovator" like VPW, it is necessary for you to put him in historical perspective so his views are not clouded by the biased authoritarian religious antagonisitic establishment - whose own track record leaves a heck of a lot to be desired BTW.
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Goey
Posted by "What The Hay":
This looks like a bunch of psyco-babble to me.
But also take note that these are not the words of "What the Hay", they are the words of Eric Hoffer and note the they were not properly quoted. Go figure...
More of the same -- Hoffer's words slightly rearranged. Kinda like something VPW would have done ...
Oh, what insight! Makes me wanna barf!
Not only do you "borrow" from Hoffer without due credit, you also take him out of context and get confused as to who the "weak" actually are.
Baaah!
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
[This message was edited by Goey on February 08, 2004 at 3:13.]
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Dot Matrix
Brady
I loved your post. To me, even the VPW loyalists will have to pause and reevaluate the Doctorate.
PS
I took an art test off a pack of matches -- I am now an accomplished artist!
:)--> I am thinking about starting a school...
Dorothy Thompson:
Fear grows in darkness; if you think there's a bogeyman around, turn on the light.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on February 08, 2004 at 10:42.]
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shazdancer
Nice find, Goey! I kept wondering why WTH was coming up with all this glorious prose that seemed to make no sense regarding how people regard Wierwille and PFAL.
WhatTheHay, try asking each detractor what they think of Wierwille, instead of trying to paint us all with the same brush. As for me, I don't hate him or resent him, he's dead. I don't think anyone said they wanted to change a dead man. But I am more than happy to alert people to his history of plagiarism, misogyny, and abusive behavior, if it will help others to know that they were not alone, and that they will certainly NOT become "greasespots by midnight."
I also note that you said you did not know the man, yet you seem to discount the stories of those who did. Why should I believe your words over what I saw with my own eyes? Why should I believe your words over the words of those who were there?
Who is impotent? Not me. Who is inadequate? Not me. I don't resent the power Wierwille had. I don't want to run a Bible ministry. I have a life. I have the respect of my peers, and my children. Could Wierwille say the same? When I die, my name will go into obscurity, as will Wierwille's. But at least I tried to make my corner of the world a little better for others. Wierwille tried to prove that The Word of God Is The Will Of God, in order to fulfill his own lusts.
Shaz
[This message was edited by shazdancer on February 07, 2004 at 23:07.]
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rascal
impotent???? IMPOTENT???????? Me n Guest spouse????????? ....why we have 7 children together!! ROFLMAO!
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Goey
Shaz,
Yea, that "glorious prose" used by WTH was knocked off from Hoffer - nothing original at all.
Here is the entire quote:
Taken out of context, it can be used in reverse like WTH did.
Here is another "Hofferism"
I would think that this would apply more to the likes of VPW and LCM than to their former folowers or to those whom they opressed or harmed. According to Hoffer VPW and LCM and those like them would be weak ones.
WTH got it backwards ...
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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GarthP2000
Goey,
Based on his writings, Hoffer would have made a dandy candidate for the Nazi Party. What with his snide dismissal of those who are 'weak', and all.
Master Race, here we come.
-->
And that What the Hay freely borrows from Hoffer like that? And he's going to tell us about how godly a man VPW was??
WTH, do you also buy into "The Myth of the Six Million" like Wierwille did?
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Brady
Quote from What The Hay:
“I think people like Brady are only here to watch the entertainment, as the reruns and sitcoms on TV have gotten pretty boring.”
What The Hay, I almost missed the above quote because I tend to skim “really fast” through your writings. At least, I haven’t given you the “Mike treatment,” although, it might be my best course of action now.
:D-->
The above quote must be a joke, right? Please say yes. Otherwise, it is certainly an unintelligent comment and inference based on false assumptions. I don’t watch reruns or sitcoms on TV. I would fail miserably if I were asked to list the names of the reruns or sitcoms on TV (ay caramba!!). In fact, I’m not much of a TV person, especially, nowadays. If it wasn’t a joke, then, it was surely an irresponsible slip of the tongue and I think there’s a lesson here to be learned.
:D-->
Remember what A$$umptions can do to a person. I see way too many assumptions in your writings and psychobabble as well. Thanks to Goey, we now know that much of your “literary productions” aren’t even from you. Also, you have diametrically misstated the facts. It seems to me that you are trying too hard to impress us… and, is not working for you…
:D-->
Another quote from What The Hay:
“BTW - At which university did Jesus Christ obtain his doctorate? The record shows he completely stumped all the highly educated Harvard and Princeton professors of his day.”
First, remember this, VP is no JC.
:D-->
Additionally, you totally missed my point in regards to “legitimate” accreditation… The aforementioned quote has no correlation whatsoever to my post, nada… I’m speaking of apples and you are thinking of oranges…
I’ll leave you with the same message I left Mike with:
Decoding and coding abilities isn’t your strongest suit, certainly, not the most conspicuous character trait.
:D-->
Cheers!
Happy writings!
Brady
[This message was edited by Brady on February 08, 2004 at 12:03.]
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jezusfreaky
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....I wonder where Mikey is?????
;)-->
Love y'all,
-Colleen
GO VOLS!!
''...show a little faith, there's magic in the night, you ain't a beauty, but hey, you're alright, oh, and that's alright with me...''
-Bruce Springsteen
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Dot Matrix
Shaz said:
"I don't think anyone said they wanted to change a dead man. But I am more than happy to alert people to his history of plagiarism, misogyny, and abusive behavior, if it will help others to know that they were not alone, and that they will certainly NOT become "greasespots by midnight."
I also note that you said you did not know the man, yet you seem to discount the stories of those who did. Why should I believe your words over what I saw with my own eyes? Why should I believe your words over the words of those who were there?"
Amen and Amen!
Geoy - Great job! Thanks for sharing that!
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What The Hay
No - NO - NOOO!!! I am not claiming how Godly a man VPW was. Obviously you didn't read my last post too well Garth, or anybody else for that matter. I believe I made the distinction between a man of faith and a man of purity and virtue, and how they don't keep pace with each other.
Goey - I never claimed the quote by Hoeffer to be my words, but it ended up among my words. I wrote the statement down of something that impressed me but I didn't recall who the author was. It was written among other quotes of people who said things that impressed me, like Koestler, but I knew it wasn't Koestler who said it. I just didn't recall who. At least I didn't give credit to Koestler for Hoeffer's statement - which I probably would have done. I was going to post the author of the quote, but you beat me to the punch finding out who made the statement. I have been off-line the past 24 hrs. with computer problems and recently got back on line, so I wasn't able to do a Google search on it.
But how would you know Hoeffer's words apply more to the likes of VPW and LCM rather than former followers of TWI? I've heard the personal testimonies of many TWI followers while they were in, and I can say with certainty many of their testimonies aren't filled with how THEY were pillars of purity and morality. In fact, many of their testimonys are far more appalling as they were trying to "win you to the Lord" (or to get you to take PFAL) by impressing you with how BAAAAAD they were, and how the Lord, [via PFAL - by the way] changed them!!!
Seems more to me like they were the ones that had the "passionate persuit" with "questionable motives" Hoeffer talks about to me. I recall a Rock I attended a number of years ago where some young lady (while I was sitting in the BRC) was relaying to me and to others in the room of what "she did with her body" just to get money to pay for drugs before she took PFAL. The worse part of her personal testimony was, I knew it wasn't something she really wanted to share with me or with anybody else in that room - but somebody CERTAINLY put her up to it. Maybe she had some passionate reason for getting a PFAL class together herself?
But perhaps your own resentment of VPW has caused you to forget these facts, just like it has for many others. Certainly we all have our faults, but hatred, malice, rudness, intolerance, etc., only makes you the weaker person, not the individual of whom you believe you were treated by unjustly.
Hoeffer got it right, so don't you get it backwards just because you may have your own personal issues and personal reasons for "demonizing" the big, bad, VP Werewolf. As Hoeffer aptly said, I can not win the weak by sharing the wealth with them. They will only feel it as oppression.
[This message was edited by What The Hay on February 08, 2004 at 22:53.]
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rascal
vpw needs no one to demonize him...his actions stand all by themselves.
Why are YOU uncomfortable with the accounts of vpw`s villainy wth?
Why is it important to you to sanitize history to make vpw appear as wholesome?
You appear to need to belittle us in order to retain your respect of vpw....
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shazdancer
I dunno, WhatTheHay,
I keep trying to put together what you're saying with what Wierwille's life and work were, and with what people here on Greasespot have said, and it still doesn't mesh. (And btw, next time you want to quote an unknown author, you might try saying something like, "a writer once said..." or "it has been said...," or do the Google search before you quote it.)
You said that Wierwille's great contribution to Christian history was "The Word Of God Is The Will Of God." First of all, my understanding is that that quote originated with B. G. Leonard, not Wierwille. Second, it is certainly an important tenet of faith to many mainstream denominations, even though they may interpret that slightly differently than either Leonard or Wierwille did.
You said,
Okay, then by this do you mean to define a "great man of faith" as one with a large or new knowledge of God? I would have defined "man of faith" as one who walked out on the knowledge that he had, i.e. a man of virtue. But what the hay, WhatTheHay, we can go by your definition if you want. I think it is arguable that he brought great new knowledge to this generation.And I certainly take issue with your declaration that "to acquire great moral purity and virtue you would have to be a great man of faith before you acquire it!" Many have walked out on the little they knew and lived wonderful, loving, kind lives. Some have been motivated to do so only out of an empathy for their fellow man, not because of an understanding of the things of God. So no, I don't think you have to have great spiritual insight to be good. But you would think that those with great Biblical understanding would WANT to be good. So why wasn't Wierwille?
Here's where you totally lose me...
I have heard Gresespotters time and again talk about what VPW did. The only reason his deeds have "gotten worse" (your words) over the years is because more stories have surfaced. In the past, those who told their stories were marked and avoided, rarely to meet others with equally appalling stories. Those who told were painted as blasphemers by [The Way] establishment. Oopsie, better put some of that in quotes, because those are YOUR words about how you think Wierwille was treated!
You say that people who nay-say against Wierwille were morally worse than he was. Um, wrong. SOME have said they were pretty corrupt before they got into TWI, then cleaned up their acts. Others here have never spoken much of their pre-TWI or post-TWI lives. As for me, I was pretty "pure" before TWI, in any category you want to name. So no, I DON'T buy your condemnation, and I DON'T get why a man who learned so much Bible, and supposedly received so much revelation from God, would do what he did with it.
Finally, I don't recall Wierwille being called a blasphemer by any upper echelon of established religion. The "upper echelon" ignored him, probably never heard of him. Many mainstreamers disagreed with him, but I would hardly call that the "upper echelon." The words of Calvin, Luther, Wesley, etc. eventually gained acceptance because the masses believed them, and that acceptance gradually filtered upward into the upper echelon. Wierwille will never achieve that kind of acceptance. He will remain in obscurity. The few who revere him are more than offset by those who don't.
Shaz
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alfakat
What the Hay--get over yourself....your posturing sounds like the attempts of someone unclear of what he is trying to say. I am not interested in the rambling mish-mash of quotes by people YOU cannot even attribute them to...
vp was a hack; deal with it, move on, get over it...all my words, no need to check your sources...Please--You think HE originated "THE WORD OF GOD IS THE WILL OF GOD". ????
On what basis do you possibly think he owns that statement, much less the thought and philosophy the staement implies??? I am much more inclined to ascribe "ownership" of sola scriptura to Luther, though I HIGHLY doubt that he would have "claimed" ownership as I see you think vp "owns" TWOGITWOG....
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What The Hay
Initially I was not going to comment or post on this tread as I initailly saw it at somebody else's (Brady in particular) repeated effort to go about demonizing the life and work of VPW. Like that topic hasn't already been over-done on other threads by GS Cafe posters?
Brady stated:
It is my consensus the majority of people who post here are not the authorities on the life and work of VPW. Many of the people who post on GS Cafe are people who have "axes to grind" because of some injustice they experienced at the hand of VPW. GS Cafe is merely their soapbox for letting off steam at VPW, because they never had the chance to "get even with him", OH but now they can! Oh whoopee - like there's some thrill to be had in digging up the bones of a dead man to crucify him? Well, I guess some people get their "jollies" that way. Brady obviously knows it. This thread has provided more entertainment than any sitcom rerun. I was not implying he watches sitcoms, but he certainly recognizes a higher entertainment value at pitting the VPW antagonists against the VPW apologists.
I only decided to post on this tread because of Brady's statement of: "history already beginning to tell his [VPW's] story" which is his own presumptious and weak arguement - a remark that's well received by the VPW antagonists who have distorted assessments regarding the life and work of VPW - just like the apologists have.
"In all fairness he will be remembered as a well intentioned person etc..." is a remark that is basically downright dishonest. Brady surely isn't speaking for me, or for many of the other people who happend to know VPW firsthand. His conclusion of VPW failing because he never kept grounded with what he built is also erroneous. If that were so, by the same measure the apostle Paul could be considered a failure because the first century church he built also failed to keep ground. It's just a blanket statement by Brady that has no bearing in truth. I'll still take the Word of God as being the truth - regardless of what some numbskulls conclusions about it are.
Brady presents a one-sided, antagonistic view of VPW as being the "ulitmate authority" of the life and work of VPW. And to that I say - BULL....!. A well intentioned person who is honestly looking for the truth regarding VPW's life and work certainly won't find it here! They will only be wading through a lot of highly opinionated BS. I have already concluded they won't get to the truth of VPW's life and work by listening to the antagonists anymore than by listening to the VPW apologists here - like Mike.
That's right. The VPW apologists have distorted conclusions regarding VPW's life and work, just as equally as the VPW antagonists have. Frankly, both conclusions make me want to barf!
Unlike Mike though, I am not here to get you to admire VPW, or to win you back to PFAL, or to talk you into "mastering the PFAL materials" and to throw out your bible in favor of the "PFAL Writtings". (Mike's already working pretty hard on that thread.) It's that I find the antagonistic conclusions regarding VPW to be as absurd as Mike's apologetic conclusions. One of his conclusions would lead someone to the point of believing Jesus is going to show up at the return with a PFAL book instead of the Word of God to judge people by!
My consensus is the next generation will be smarter than either the VPW antagonists or the VPW apologists regardless of how "enlightened" and wise each group considers themselves. The next generation will draw their own conclusions regarding the life and work of VPW.
The only conclusion they'll draw from the posters at GS Cafe will be - both views of VPW are a bunch of "BS"! I came to that conclusion a long time ago, and on this I am practically ahead of everybody else. I'm sorry if that bugs any of you. It certainly doesn't bug me.
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ex10
Wow! What the Hay
I never thought of myself as being an "authority" of the life and work of VPW, until you wrote that.
But then I thought, geeze, many of us (myself included) were in the way corps, knew PFAL and its progeny backwards and forwards, (I mean like writing the advanced class exam and the tests the apprentice corps and newby in-rez corps took on PFAL material) and knew VPW personally. Many of us spent time with him, being "taught" and "instructed" by him, as well as just "hanging out" with him. If we aren't the experts on his life and teachings, then who is?
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Zixar
I want to know how one person can have a "consensus".
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TheInvisibleDan
WTH wrotesth:
"My consensus is the next generation will be smarter than either the VPW antagonists or the VPW apologists regardless of how "enlightened" and wise each group considers themselves. The next generation will draw their own conclusions regarding the life and work of VPW."
But that all depends on who writes the history books.
Danny
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ex10
Oh and another thing WTH,
What do you care what anybody else's conclusions about the life and times of VPW are? You're a thinking human, why not draw your own conclusions from the shared experiences and sentiments of the posters here?
Maybe you're just like the rest of us, trying to make some sense out of our experiences with TWI. Maybe not. Maybe you have another agenda, I don't know. But if you are just trying to sort it all out, being offended at the offenses is just part of the normal process of working through it all. My advice is, don't get stuck there.
It just makes me wonder, from your last post, what exactly you are looking for?
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alfakat
gosh, wth, how lucky we are to have the voice of cool, dispassionate reason among us!!!! Certainly u gotta b da man!!!!!!!!!!!!
thanks for your holier than thou, above the fray, wiser-than-wise discourse. Totally useless drivel that it is....and, once again, Paul and vp held up together as if birds of a feather, eh, wth??????????? puhh-leeeze!! Why not examine the record instead of your sugar-coated memories....
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rascal
Poor wth... are we tarnishing your pristine image of poor ole beleagured vp?
Ex10, I agree...Getting angry over the lies...the mistreatment of our brothers and sisters in Christ...the misuse of resources...IS part of the healing...
Wth ...why do you need to believe so intensly that vp was a good guy? It seems so important that you have to label everyone who really saw the darkness first hand...as liars or overexagerating whiners...
Makes no differance to me what you believe...all that I can say is that you are categorically wrong in your perceptions of vp and us.... stay ignorant as long as it pleases you...
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Brady
What The Hay, all I’m getting from you are “A$$umptions and Spin.” Backpedaling and spin city are indeed your strongest suit, YET, it doesn’t fool anyone here. My time is too valuable and precious nowadays for useless debates.
FYI, I never had nor do I have any hard feelings towards VP. Not even now. Also, I’m not here to tear him down, although, I do reserve the right to comment or make an observation when I see fit. I’m far from obsessions. I always liked VP because he always treated me well. In fact, I guarded his motor coach on numerous occasions as well as the backstage of the main tent during ROA and big TWI events. Big huge weight lifter Perry Williams an Afro-American guy was always stationed at the front of the stage. During the ROA of 1980, VP who was on the main stage speaking to the congregation had Rev. Gary Curtis summons me to stand next to him in front of the audience with several other believers in order to acknowledge the work we did for the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) at Fort Chaffee, Arkansas. So, I have no reason to feel any discontentment towards VP. No hard feelings here.
Additionally, when I left TWI in the mid '80s, I “practically” forgot VP and TWI. Thereafter, in a relatively short time, I “totally” forgot about VP and TWI. Not until this past summer of 2003, out of curiosity, I started to visit this site and began to realize the gravity of the hurt that VP has caused to many people, and only recently, after visiting here for 7 months or so, I decided to share my observations of VP. I have only been compelled to post twice in regards to VP. I repeat, only twice, and the second post, due to the ignorance of some, it has a subdivision elaborating on the legitimatization of a doctoral program. They, were published fairly recently. The first one was a response to a thread and the other one is my open letter, which contains the aforementioned subdivision. Otherwise, he would have continued to be a forgotten entity in my mind if I have not discovered this Web site. Now, he’s only a figment of my imagination. Nothing more. In other words, in regards to you and I, the only person obsessed with VP, is you.
It’s unfortunate to see someone like yourself who possess good writing skills is a bit entangled and distorted with lots of psychobabble. Speaking of entertainment, you are it. Loosen up a bit and let this thread be... if I were you, I’ll do as the great song of the Beatles states, “let it be… let it be…” You are beginning to sound more like, What The Hell (I’m-going-to say-it-anyway)
:D-->
A concerned GSer,
Brady
The message below was prompted by a network glitch caused by the negligence of the organization that was supposed to upgrade this site.
:D-->
[This message was edited by Brady on February 10, 2004 at 10:53.]
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ladycat
Hey Brady!! I lived in Miami Beach the last time I saw you, my husband (now ex) and 2 kids and I had a way home there in a big white house where we ran lots of "stuff". My kids are all grown up now and I live in Tallahassee. Do you remember????
Cat aka ladycat
~~Cat
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What The Hay
I have Ex10. The conclusion I have drawn from posters here are many have embellished their sentiments and experiences of VPW - both the antagonists and the apologists, and therefore one can't rely heavily on either. I neither completely beleive or disbelieve it all.
For example, one poster wants us to believe VPW is nothing but an unrepentent sinner. If that were so, why then did VPW even bother to write the following:
...for to the very depth of my being I love him [Jesus Christ] with all my heart, soul, mind and strength.
It is he who sought me out from darkness.
It is he who gave me access to God; even now he is my mediator.
It is he who saved me when I was dead in trespasses and sin.
It is he who gave me the new birth of God's eternal life - which is Christ in me, the hope of glory.
It is he who gave me remission of sins and continues to give forgiveness of sins.
It is he who filled me to capacity by God's presence in Christ in all the fullness of God's gift of holy spirit.
It is he who was made unto me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
It is he who called me and set me in the heavenlies.
It is he who gave me his joy, peace and love.
It is he who appointed me as a spokesman of God's accurate Word; may I be found faithful in that calling.
It is he who is all in all to me that I might give my all for him.
It is he how is God's only begotten Son.
May I as a son of God live always to glorify the God whom men can only know from God's written Word, the Bible, and from the declared Word, God's Son, Jesus Christ.
In spite of all my human frailties and shortcomings, I endeavor to love him with all my being...
[VPW - page 8,9 of JCING]
Perhaps you want to believe the testimony of a GS poster that these words were written by the "unrepentant sinner, VPW"? Truthfully, I have never heard any unrepentent sinner say such things like this. Therefore my conclusion regarding this poster testimony is - they have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to making judgments regarding the life of VPW, regardless of whatever their "shared experience and sentement" among the posters of VPW at GS Cafe happen to be. This is but one example from practically a million others.
What exactly am I looking for Ex10? I am looking whether or not people have any credibility in their assessment regarding the life and work of VPW. My conclusion is most people do not, even among those who were closest to him. Why do I say that? The reason I say this is, because, humans are both creatures of habit and predictable emotions that preside over logic. Logic most often always takes a back seat.
Therefore we find trends in history that both follow and parallel the trends from religious history, where many a genius has been destroyed by people of far lesser talent defending the status quo. Before you begin to judge a "biblical innovator" like VPW, it is necessary for you to put him in historical perspective so his views are not clouded by the biased authoritarian religious antagonisitic establishment - whose own track record leaves a heck of a lot to be desired BTW.
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shazdancer
WhatTheHay,
You said,
I have, believe me, I have.Shaz
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