Here’s a re-worked version of a posting I did on Dr’s youth.
On staff for two years, I worked with lady who had gone to high school with Dr, and I heard a lot of stories from her. We worked alone most of the time and had many day-long discussions of how Dr grew up and matured in his wisdom.
The stories I've heard! This woman give me great insights into the earlier phases of Dr's ministry.
When in high school, she told me, VPW was a very rough, tough, near hoodlum type of person. She told me he would crash parties he wasn't invited to just for spite. It was a common thing that he would start fights, and usually win. He could win with words and with his athletic prowess. He was a genius, ruffian, jock, bully.
To show off for the ladies and intimidate the guys, one of young Vic's tricks would be to blast through New Knoxville at fast speed very loudly on his motorcycle, STANDING on the back seat, arms stretched out crucifixion style.
When this young VPW went into the seminary, the townsfolk and county folk thought he was going there as a joke just to beat up the seminarians. This is one reason his ministry never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his.
She then told me stories of his young pastorate and how AGAIN he was a terror to those around him.
Remember, he opens up "Christian Family and Sex" with a story of how he was brought up so strict that looking at himself in a mirror naked would be considered sin. It was a medical doctor who challenged him to consider how the human body was awesomely constructed, and that it said so in the Bible.
In Dr's young pastorate he was a terror in legalistic strictness. It's funny how many of us go from one extreme to the other at times. I can relate to this.
Dr was so strict, she told me one day, trying so hard to control the laughter, that she couldn't finish the sentence. Regaining her composure, she looked around to make sure if the door was closed and our boss couldn't hear.
Just between us, Mike, she confided, I'm sworn to secrecy about this and she continued. Young pastor Vic was so strict about purging RC paganism from his church in the 1940's that he sent chills down people's spines if they dared to get Christmasy in December. Christmas trees were totally forbidden in the church building as if they were a Germanic phallic god. But a few couples founded a secret strategy for dealing with pastor Vic's violent temper, and they all swore to never tell on each other.
The statute of limitations on these secrets 1940's strategy has run out and they've been recently de-classified.
They method they'd devised for dealing with this very difficult young pastor's wrath was they mounted their Christmas trees ON WHEELS! This way on Sunday afternoon if it was their turn to chicken-dinnerize the pastor, they'd simply wheel the tree into the back bedroom. She said they'd do practice drills to see how fast they could remove all Christmas decoration evidence in case of an unexpected visit from the pastor.
We were both in tears laughing whenever this topic came up while working together those years.
The Christmas story doesn't end there, though.
She said Dr went through a BIG change when he started speaking in tongues in the early 1950's.
My co-worker would nod her head and say things like:
"You know how he mentions in the class how SIT will build love and fruit, well Dr is THE prime example of that. Dr changed a lot with SIT. He really mellowed out and developed a lot of love like Uncle Harry. He went through a MASSIVE set of changes in those early fifties, and still is changing. He amazes me. So does his wife. She has to be a very special kind of person to put up with him the way she does."
When sexual things popped up a bit in SNS tapes she'd get a little nervous and say "I wish he wouldn't get that way." We both wished he were the man he knew to be. We wished we were too. I'm finding out how to be the man I know to be in coming back to PFAL.
It was bigger than Dr; PFAL was a team effort of many others who also had the same spirit connection to God that Dr had. The lady who told me those stories helped set things for me. She was walking with God.
Another team member in the production of PFAL was Uncle Harry. My co-worker told me how he would balance off Dr's rough edges often. I saw this in my stay at HQ myself. She told me how the Christmas story got balanced in the earlier years by Uncle Harry. One year, at a holiday party Uncle Harry showed up in a Santa Clause suit and handed candy canes out to all the kids. He did this in defiance of Dr's anti-Christmas stance, and helped force a bit of balance back into the mix. The early ministry was a mix of many people getting many revelations. Dr was the ring leader. God was working it all in spite of the frailties of all the participants. The PFAL revelations were put into writing as a team effort.
I've posted here before about how all the bad stories about Dr are actually mitigated, softened with the knowledge of how he had IMPROVED his life in these categories. His slip-ups are well documented, but we know nothing of how many temptations he resisted to revert to his old man ruffian past habits. I'm told by my co-worker his walk was a massive change for the better.
Dr’s sins are rare enough to have many say of their stay at HQ "I never saw anything myself, but..." This is by far the most common testimony of those who worked on the team that produced the PFAL writings.
I'd like to close here with this:
May I inject some thoughts that I NEVER hear passed about? In the liberal/conservative debate over gun control, liberals often cite statistics of gun deaths to support their side. Usually conservatives are less eloquent in their argument, but now and again someone will challenge the gun-death statistics with a question like "How many deaths and robberies are prevented because of the likely existence of a gun being owned by an intended victim?" Of course, a statistic like this is very hard to discern, but it COULD be far greater than the liberal statistics.
Likewise with Dr, for every story of sin held in the heart about Dr, how many stories of him RESISTING temptation are held? None I’ll bet. Who could know of the resistance? This is a statistic that is impossible for anyone but God to discern! If it's the case that Dr's resistance record is FAR GREATER than his sin record, then what kind of re-evaluation is deserved here?
Pray don't find fault with the man
who limps or stumbles along the road
Unless you have worn the shoes he wears,
or struggled beneath his load.
There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt,
though hidden away from view,
Or the burden he bears...placed on your back,
might cause you to stumble too.
Don't sneer at the man who's down today,
unless you have felt the blow
That caused his fall or felt the shame
that only the fallen know.
You may be strong, but still the blows that were his...
"The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary...coursework was not accepted by many other institutions...few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into (MORE)disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in ang get a degree"
Obviously, other educational institutions (universities) knew more about Pikes Peak Seminary than Mike does.
"still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...lie la lie, lie la lie lie lie la lie" --Paul Simon
Gawd mike, have you read about the symptoms and background of a sociopath? The description of what that lady told you fits perfectly with one. Pretty scary if you ask me.
I think you really need to think about this.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
If you had a description of the Apostle Paul, prior to his Road to Damascus conversion, you would surely come up with some a similar pyscho-babble. I know MANY people who insist that even Paul’s POST conversion story is psychotic.
I’ve seen a description, very generic and general, of Jesus Christ’s life, and it sounds to the reader as if he was a total failure. Have you seen that?
You have reason to be scared. Your world will come crashing down on you when you see Christ in his glory. It’s not too late to change.
I happen to KNOW you really need to think about THIS.
I truely hate to say this but, God forgives us as he forgives VPW. Remember hate the sin not the sinner. I have openly voiced my dislike of VPW. And it took alot of my husbands teachings on the subject to finally swallow my pride and admit that he is right, so I have decided to forgive VPW (even tho he never asked me to).
God I hate being wrong, thats one of many things I am guitly of.
And I still hate what he did to my beautiful sisters in the word.
ok mike thats ok if you want to believe that. I was only remarking to you about the sociopath side. I have done some studying in this area of psychiatry and thought (however foolishly) that you might be interested in checking on this.
But I have nothing against what you believe if that is what you choose to believe in. Its just something I'm not interested in whatsover.
If you want to believe that I live in fear and that I'll be scared when JC comes back, will that is your problem not mine. But, by trying with words to put fear in me just won't work. But I guess you can try.
I just think its really sad for someone to put all that time and worship in a man that was just a man. Nothing more. And a man that did the evil things he did.
By you saying that was ok he was still the mog really makes me not want to follow any of your posting simply because if you think this is all ok then it tells me that its ok for you. You know?
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
A closer analogy possibly could be made between Jeroboam the son of Nebat (1 Kings 12:26-31), who for political and personal reasons drew Israel into idolatry, and Wierwille, who developed a group of fawning adherents by making grandiose claims and promoting himself and his false teachings in a heretical and bastardized alternative to biblical Christianity.
I agree with wyteduv58’s approach. I posted earlier that I didn’t like VPW at times, but that I belive in God’s abundant forgiveness, and that He gave Dr the revelations to put into writing that became the PFAL series of books.
Like wyteduv58 posted, I hate what went wrong in Dr’s life, but I thank God for what went right. What I meant about Jesus Christ’s appearing was that if you want to maintain that what got printed in those books was tainted, then by what is written in I John 2:28, you will be not so happy to see Christ endorsing the contents of PFAL.
Even VPW will face the consequences of I John 2: 28 for his personal life, just like I will too. I have come to see that as I separate my opinions of VPW’s flesh from the contents of the books, then I have something good to latch onto in those contents. I do NOT latch onto the man VPW, nor do I idolize him. I praise the God who had such abundant grace and mercy to work with VPW in spite of his flesh, and Who works with me and you in spite of our flesh.
Thank you for the humor compliment. :)-->
I'm trying to ne more friendly, even in the debating.
That was a very good post. Thank you. Please thank your husband for me. I just want to quote it for clarity.
You wrote: “I truely hate to say this but, God forgives us as he forgives VPW. Remember hate the sin not the sinner. I have openly voiced my dislike of VPW. And it took alot of my husbands teachings on the subject to finally swallow my pride and admit that he is right, so I have decided to forgive VPW (even tho he never asked me to). __
God I hate being wrong, thats one of many things I am guitly of. __ And I still hate what he did to my beautiful sisters in the word.”
I used to think of that kind of possibility. I stopped when I finally came back to PFAL and started reading. As I found wonderful light that gave glory to God and helped me immensely in my life I changed and stopped thinking of that possibility. I now know that, although the ministry belly flopped in most categories, the books are MORE than they were advertised. This is good news to all who will to open them and read.
[This message was edited by Mike on February 02, 2004 at 3:02.]
Do you maintain that Wierwille's account in The Word's Way about Christ's birth being ever-available since the Fall, but held off while God waited for a woman to arise who would believe he could inseminate her miraculously is inerrant and God-breathed?
Mike, you post writings which VPW wrote were words from God. How do you know what God told VPW to do?
Shame on VPW's god as well as LCM's for telling them to do the evil things they did. And, shame on the COD's god for telling them to do what they are doing.
Mike, IMO, VPW could easily make "Ripleys Believe It or Not." Why don't you try entering him for a world record...god's revelations, lies, sex....take your pick...
mike said: "When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it."
I think you might be right about that in your situation. Christ will be holding a PFAL book (your god) with both hands as he smacks you with it for your idolatry, and then throws it into the lake of fire.
If Christ is holding and teaching from a pfal book at the return...seriously.....FIRST thing that I`d tell him is that I`d PREFER to be in Hell....please!
You wrote: “Do you maintain that Wierwille's account in The Word's Way about Christ's birth being ever-available since the Fall, but held off while God waited for a woman to arise who would believe he could inseminate her miraculously is inerrant and God-breathed?”
Could you tell me which pages you are referring to in WWAY? Also, have you done an exhaustive search of all the appearances of this topic in Dr's writings to us? If not, then your question is incomplete.
I've learned that such exhaustive searches are necessary in properly discussing a topic of choice. We were taught that this is necessary in the class. It's pretty logical to see that any one topic may have crucial elements located in other places. Finding them all requires a serious effort, i.e., mastery. Isolating only one passage and forming an opinion is doomed to lead not where the original Author (God) would lead.
I am not a master of these writings, but I am working on it. Because of the incomplete state of my knowledge, I refrain from premature crystallization on many such topics. There are only a few that I feel , after 6 years of study, to bet my life on my understanding being full.
How complete is your study on this topic? It IS an interesting one. I’ve seen in my own life and in others that what we often call “believing” is an enthusiastic agreement or mental assent. This enthusiasm is mostly based on favorable circumstances surrounding the supposed “believing.” When the circumstances turn sour, the phrase “But, I WAS believing” is often heard. If it really was believing, like Shadrach’s, Mishaack’s, and Abendigo’s (please pardon my spelling), then it doesn’t flinch when the heat is turned up.
Very few people engage in REAL believing. For no women (or men) to believe some one extremely momentous promise of God for 4000 years is not so outrageous and assertion when seen in this light. Look at how we all, many thousands of us, were scattered and our “believing” dashed when the ministry melted down in the late 80’s.
Another thing to bring to the mix involving your question regarding the “women” preceding Mary is the figurative usage of the word woman. In God’s Word it’s often the case that “woman” refers to followers who could literally be of both sexes. One such example is all Israel being referred to as the “Bride of Christ.” This is an element I’d bring to the study of your topic, as well as anything else that God gave Dr to write on it in other places.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Mary was not an isolated individual. Her believing was a result of the overall support system that brought her up and taught her. It can be argued, to the appreciation of those feminists whose dandruff may get a little ruffed by your topic, that all the women that proceeded Mary were surrounded by defective support systems due to the neglect of the men in charge.
That Mary was the first to believe is the result of a VERY large number of favorable details finally lining up which were 4000 years in the making. That God would have been ready, willing, and able to pull off HIS end of the bargain in fulfilling Gen.3:16 should be comforting. That it took 4000 years for a woman to finally believe, REALLY believe, that promise should in NO WAY disparage the female sex. Without doing all the exhaustive research to answer your question, I CAN identify this one error (female disparagement) and cut it off at the pass.
As you master this subject and find all those references I’d be very interested in obtaining a list ot the page numbers.
he was a bad MAN who used GODS word to get what he wanted, money, power, and sex. we see it everyday and vpw, lcm, and the bot are no different than the others we see on t.v. or in the news.
why read PFAL when I can read the bible? why follow the teachings of a man when I can follow GODS words?
we all have shotcommings, but some people see them and try to improve. some people see them and use them to get what they want out of someone. vpw and lcm saw a multitude of people looking for the truth and used that against them to get what THEY wanted out of them. I was told how evil I was, how I couldn't make my own decissions about anything and that I should let my 'family coor' make them for me, how I was giving in to evil when I did certain things I enjoyed, how I was nothing without TWI. all this coming from people doing things much worse than I have ever done. the blind leading the blind but peeking from under their blindfold to steal from you?
some of you can hold vpw in awe as the 'mog' and thats ok if thats what you need to do to justify your life. but don't forget about how many people they hurt for their own uses. an affair (rape) that lcm had came to light and he was made to step down, but old vic did the same things and someone holds him in high places while shamming the other.
a ruffian then and never changed, only refined his art into a way of life that was rich while others truly did strive to make a difference and had to live on less than poverty level income and out of that support the 'ruffian'.
it's the same to me as the churches that build multi-million dollar buildings while preaching about how theres hungry poor people in their own community. tare down the buildings and feed the people.
I can forgive them, but I will always remember the evil that was done. that way I won't fall into their crap again.
love God, follow God, leave the vpw and lcm crap on the side of the road with the chaffe. stand with vpw and lcm and TWI or stand with God, it's up to you.
We're ALL bad men, just different varieties of evil. Those of us who think they are NOT bad are the worst! They suffer from the most insideous sin of pride. Even your KJV testifies to this.
The Bible versions you read had some very bad men involved in their production, even the original writers. Paul, when he was called Saul, was MUCH worse than a ruffian.
I do leave the crap behind, in spite of its continually being brought and posted here. The good part is worth clinging to. The books are pure and uncontaminated, thanks to God's mighty hand, with the issues that bother you.
You wrote: “If the integrity of vpw is (at best) questionable… __ Then, wouldn’t any “revelation” that vpw reported to have questionable? __ Also, why would God give the type of revelation that vpw is said to have received who has “integrity issues” along with “alleged", “indiscretions”? __ The Bible states the qualities that leadership is to have. IMO, VPW, LCM and others fall very short of the standard set.”
There is only one man who’s integrity is above question and that’s Jesus Christ.
All the writers of the Bible were sinners; some much worse than all the stories we’ve heard of Dr.
You should be questioning the writings of David and Solomon especially, if you maintain that attitude.
Did you read about the prophesy of Balaam, the prophet who was “crookeder than a dog’s hind legs” which I’ve posted much about here?
If you want to question God’s ability to get His revelations through to sinners, then you won’t be hearing much from above yourself.
I’m thankful that God can discern who can get His Word into written form, even though other areas of their lives may be quite untrustworthy. We are not able to make such a crucial call, so we play it safe and look for people who, on the surface, appear to have integrity before WE can entrust an important job to them This is an illusion, because we are often blind to the hidden flaws in those we think we can trust. God is capable of seeing deep. Sometimes a man’s flaws are VERY deep and we can’t see them.
Utilizing the “standard” you mention is the safest way we blind sense-knowledge humans can select other humans for important jobs. God is not blind and can see the deepest heart issues. God is capable of seeing that, though a man can’t be trusted in one area at all, in another area such as receiving revelation and putting it into written form, that same man CAN be trusted.
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Mike
Who would you rather be?
The swimmer who is...
a) nearly saved?
b) almost drowned?
*************************************************************
Who would you want to teach you?
The man who has...
a) low integrity but is increasing it daily?
b) high integrity but is decreasing it daily?
*************************************************************
Here’s a re-worked version of a posting I did on Dr’s youth.
On staff for two years, I worked with lady who had gone to high school with Dr, and I heard a lot of stories from her. We worked alone most of the time and had many day-long discussions of how Dr grew up and matured in his wisdom.
The stories I've heard! This woman give me great insights into the earlier phases of Dr's ministry.
When in high school, she told me, VPW was a very rough, tough, near hoodlum type of person. She told me he would crash parties he wasn't invited to just for spite. It was a common thing that he would start fights, and usually win. He could win with words and with his athletic prowess. He was a genius, ruffian, jock, bully.
To show off for the ladies and intimidate the guys, one of young Vic's tricks would be to blast through New Knoxville at fast speed very loudly on his motorcycle, STANDING on the back seat, arms stretched out crucifixion style.
When this young VPW went into the seminary, the townsfolk and county folk thought he was going there as a joke just to beat up the seminarians. This is one reason his ministry never got to reach out to these contemporaries of his.
She then told me stories of his young pastorate and how AGAIN he was a terror to those around him.
Remember, he opens up "Christian Family and Sex" with a story of how he was brought up so strict that looking at himself in a mirror naked would be considered sin. It was a medical doctor who challenged him to consider how the human body was awesomely constructed, and that it said so in the Bible.
In Dr's young pastorate he was a terror in legalistic strictness. It's funny how many of us go from one extreme to the other at times. I can relate to this.
Dr was so strict, she told me one day, trying so hard to control the laughter, that she couldn't finish the sentence. Regaining her composure, she looked around to make sure if the door was closed and our boss couldn't hear.
Just between us, Mike, she confided, I'm sworn to secrecy about this and she continued. Young pastor Vic was so strict about purging RC paganism from his church in the 1940's that he sent chills down people's spines if they dared to get Christmasy in December. Christmas trees were totally forbidden in the church building as if they were a Germanic phallic god. But a few couples founded a secret strategy for dealing with pastor Vic's violent temper, and they all swore to never tell on each other.
The statute of limitations on these secrets 1940's strategy has run out and they've been recently de-classified.
They method they'd devised for dealing with this very difficult young pastor's wrath was they mounted their Christmas trees ON WHEELS! This way on Sunday afternoon if it was their turn to chicken-dinnerize the pastor, they'd simply wheel the tree into the back bedroom. She said they'd do practice drills to see how fast they could remove all Christmas decoration evidence in case of an unexpected visit from the pastor.
We were both in tears laughing whenever this topic came up while working together those years.
The Christmas story doesn't end there, though.
She said Dr went through a BIG change when he started speaking in tongues in the early 1950's.
My co-worker would nod her head and say things like:
"You know how he mentions in the class how SIT will build love and fruit, well Dr is THE prime example of that. Dr changed a lot with SIT. He really mellowed out and developed a lot of love like Uncle Harry. He went through a MASSIVE set of changes in those early fifties, and still is changing. He amazes me. So does his wife. She has to be a very special kind of person to put up with him the way she does."
When sexual things popped up a bit in SNS tapes she'd get a little nervous and say "I wish he wouldn't get that way." We both wished he were the man he knew to be. We wished we were too. I'm finding out how to be the man I know to be in coming back to PFAL.
It was bigger than Dr; PFAL was a team effort of many others who also had the same spirit connection to God that Dr had. The lady who told me those stories helped set things for me. She was walking with God.
Another team member in the production of PFAL was Uncle Harry. My co-worker told me how he would balance off Dr's rough edges often. I saw this in my stay at HQ myself. She told me how the Christmas story got balanced in the earlier years by Uncle Harry. One year, at a holiday party Uncle Harry showed up in a Santa Clause suit and handed candy canes out to all the kids. He did this in defiance of Dr's anti-Christmas stance, and helped force a bit of balance back into the mix. The early ministry was a mix of many people getting many revelations. Dr was the ring leader. God was working it all in spite of the frailties of all the participants. The PFAL revelations were put into writing as a team effort.
I've posted here before about how all the bad stories about Dr are actually mitigated, softened with the knowledge of how he had IMPROVED his life in these categories. His slip-ups are well documented, but we know nothing of how many temptations he resisted to revert to his old man ruffian past habits. I'm told by my co-worker his walk was a massive change for the better.
Dr’s sins are rare enough to have many say of their stay at HQ "I never saw anything myself, but..." This is by far the most common testimony of those who worked on the team that produced the PFAL writings.
I'd like to close here with this:
May I inject some thoughts that I NEVER hear passed about? In the liberal/conservative debate over gun control, liberals often cite statistics of gun deaths to support their side. Usually conservatives are less eloquent in their argument, but now and again someone will challenge the gun-death statistics with a question like "How many deaths and robberies are prevented because of the likely existence of a gun being owned by an intended victim?" Of course, a statistic like this is very hard to discern, but it COULD be far greater than the liberal statistics.
Likewise with Dr, for every story of sin held in the heart about Dr, how many stories of him RESISTING temptation are held? None I’ll bet. Who could know of the resistance? This is a statistic that is impossible for anyone but God to discern! If it's the case that Dr's resistance record is FAR GREATER than his sin record, then what kind of re-evaluation is deserved here?
Pray don't find fault with the man
who limps or stumbles along the road
Unless you have worn the shoes he wears,
or struggled beneath his load.
There may be tacks in his shoes that hurt,
though hidden away from view,
Or the burden he bears...placed on your back,
might cause you to stumble too.
Don't sneer at the man who's down today,
unless you have felt the blow
That caused his fall or felt the shame
that only the fallen know.
You may be strong, but still the blows that were his...
if dealt to you,
In the selfsame way at the selfsame time
might cause you to stagger too.
Don't be too harsh with the man who sins
or pelt him with word or stone
Unless you are sure...yea doubly sure
that you have no sins of your own...
For you know...perhaps if the tempters
voice should whisper...as softly to you
As it did to him...when he went astray
could cause you to falter too.
Author Unknown
.
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Oakspear
I'd prefer to be taught by someone with high integrity who seeks to maintain it.
But while in TWI I was taught by someone with low integrity who got progressively lower.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Golfie
"The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary...coursework was not accepted by many other institutions...few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into (MORE)disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in ang get a degree"
Obviously, other educational institutions (universities) knew more about Pikes Peak Seminary than Mike does.
"still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest...lie la lie, lie la lie lie lie la lie" --Paul Simon
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vickles
Gawd mike, have you read about the symptoms and background of a sociopath? The description of what that lady told you fits perfectly with one. Pretty scary if you ask me.
I think you really need to think about this.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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Mike
vickles,
If you had a description of the Apostle Paul, prior to his Road to Damascus conversion, you would surely come up with some a similar pyscho-babble. I know MANY people who insist that even Paul’s POST conversion story is psychotic.
I’ve seen a description, very generic and general, of Jesus Christ’s life, and it sounds to the reader as if he was a total failure. Have you seen that?
You have reason to be scared. Your world will come crashing down on you when you see Christ in his glory. It’s not too late to change.
I happen to KNOW you really need to think about THIS.
****************************************************************
Golfie,
I think you need to take your beef to Research Geek. He’s the one who first posted that.
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vickles
guffaw....why do you think that somehow your God told you I need to think about it? LOL I guess you know something about me that I don't know....hehe
I got to go, I'm lmao on this way too much.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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Mike
vickles,
When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it.
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wyteduv58
I truely hate to say this but, God forgives us as he forgives VPW. Remember hate the sin not the sinner. I have openly voiced my dislike of VPW. And it took alot of my husbands teachings on the subject to finally swallow my pride and admit that he is right, so I have decided to forgive VPW (even tho he never asked me to).
God I hate being wrong, thats one of many things I am guitly of.
And I still hate what he did to my beautiful sisters in the word.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... too dumb to post pics http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?s=9716057...a&ul=4846073735
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vickles
ok mike thats ok if you want to believe that. I was only remarking to you about the sociopath side. I have done some studying in this area of psychiatry and thought (however foolishly) that you might be interested in checking on this.
But I have nothing against what you believe if that is what you choose to believe in. Its just something I'm not interested in whatsover.
If you want to believe that I live in fear and that I'll be scared when JC comes back, will that is your problem not mine. But, by trying with words to put fear in me just won't work. But I guess you can try.
I just think its really sad for someone to put all that time and worship in a man that was just a man. Nothing more. And a man that did the evil things he did.
By you saying that was ok he was still the mog really makes me not want to follow any of your posting simply because if you think this is all ok then it tells me that its ok for you. You know?
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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vickles
oh and btw, I do love your sense of humor...
:D-->
And I'm not being facetious, I do truly mean it.
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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GarthP2000
Here is Yet Another Classic Gem from Smikeol, proving Yet Again that his brain is drizzling merrily down the drain:
Glaw-rey! So that is what's going to happen at the Return, eh? One giant video PFAL class with Jesus leading it.
I wonder how much He'll charge us to take it?
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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vickles
Garth, I think he was kidding.
You were kidding, right, mike?...
-->
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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WhiteDove
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Cynic
A closer analogy possibly could be made between Jeroboam the son of Nebat (1 Kings 12:26-31), who for political and personal reasons drew Israel into idolatry, and Wierwille, who developed a group of fawning adherents by making grandiose claims and promoting himself and his false teachings in a heretical and bastardized alternative to biblical Christianity.
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Mike
Hey! look who’s on top again!!!
I’m king of the mountain!!!
vickles,
I agree with wyteduv58’s approach. I posted earlier that I didn’t like VPW at times, but that I belive in God’s abundant forgiveness, and that He gave Dr the revelations to put into writing that became the PFAL series of books.
Like wyteduv58 posted, I hate what went wrong in Dr’s life, but I thank God for what went right. What I meant about Jesus Christ’s appearing was that if you want to maintain that what got printed in those books was tainted, then by what is written in I John 2:28, you will be not so happy to see Christ endorsing the contents of PFAL.
Even VPW will face the consequences of I John 2: 28 for his personal life, just like I will too. I have come to see that as I separate my opinions of VPW’s flesh from the contents of the books, then I have something good to latch onto in those contents. I do NOT latch onto the man VPW, nor do I idolize him. I praise the God who had such abundant grace and mercy to work with VPW in spite of his flesh, and Who works with me and you in spite of our flesh.
Thank you for the humor compliment.
:)-->
I'm trying to ne more friendly, even in the debating.
**************************************************************
wyteduv58,
That was a very good post. Thank you. Please thank your husband for me. I just want to quote it for clarity.
You wrote: “I truely hate to say this but, God forgives us as he forgives VPW. Remember hate the sin not the sinner. I have openly voiced my dislike of VPW. And it took alot of my husbands teachings on the subject to finally swallow my pride and admit that he is right, so I have decided to forgive VPW (even tho he never asked me to). __
God I hate being wrong, thats one of many things I am guitly of. __ And I still hate what he did to my beautiful sisters in the word.”
****************************************************************
GarthP2000,
Ok.... ok... I could be wrong. In his glorious appearing Christ MAY teach us out of a “The Bible Tells Me So.”
*****************************************************************
WhiteDove,
I think he downloaded that CD of all Dr’s books that’s been circulating around.
*****************************************************************
Cynic,
I used to think of that kind of possibility. I stopped when I finally came back to PFAL and started reading. As I found wonderful light that gave glory to God and helped me immensely in my life I changed and stopped thinking of that possibility. I now know that, although the ministry belly flopped in most categories, the books are MORE than they were advertised. This is good news to all who will to open them and read.
[This message was edited by Mike on February 02, 2004 at 3:02.]
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Cynic
Mike,
Do you maintain that Wierwille's account in The Word's Way about Christ's birth being ever-available since the Fall, but held off while God waited for a woman to arise who would believe he could inseminate her miraculously is inerrant and God-breathed?
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sadie
Mike, you post writings which VPW wrote were words from God. How do you know what God told VPW to do?
Shame on VPW's god as well as LCM's for telling them to do the evil things they did. And, shame on the COD's god for telling them to do what they are doing.
Mike, IMO, VPW could easily make "Ripleys Believe It or Not." Why don't you try entering him for a world record...god's revelations, lies, sex....take your pick...
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IMF777
mike said: "When you see Christ in his glory he will be holding a PFAL book in his hand and teaching you from it."
I think you might be right about that in your situation. Christ will be holding a PFAL book (your god) with both hands as he smacks you with it for your idolatry, and then throws it into the lake of fire.
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rascal
If Christ is holding and teaching from a pfal book at the return...seriously.....FIRST thing that I`d tell him is that I`d PREFER to be in Hell....please!
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Zshot
Mike,
I have a question…
If the integrity of vpw is (at best) questionable…
Then, wouldn’t any “revelation” that vpw reported to have be questionable?
Can you expect a liar to tell the truth?
Also, why would God give the type of revelation that vpw is said to have received who has “integrity issues” along with “alleged", “indiscretions”?
The Bible states the qualities that leadership is to have. IMO, VPW, LCM and others fall very short of the standard set.
[This message was edited by Zshot on February 02, 2004 at 12:38.]
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Mike
Cynic,
You wrote: “Do you maintain that Wierwille's account in The Word's Way about Christ's birth being ever-available since the Fall, but held off while God waited for a woman to arise who would believe he could inseminate her miraculously is inerrant and God-breathed?”
Could you tell me which pages you are referring to in WWAY? Also, have you done an exhaustive search of all the appearances of this topic in Dr's writings to us? If not, then your question is incomplete.
I've learned that such exhaustive searches are necessary in properly discussing a topic of choice. We were taught that this is necessary in the class. It's pretty logical to see that any one topic may have crucial elements located in other places. Finding them all requires a serious effort, i.e., mastery. Isolating only one passage and forming an opinion is doomed to lead not where the original Author (God) would lead.
I am not a master of these writings, but I am working on it. Because of the incomplete state of my knowledge, I refrain from premature crystallization on many such topics. There are only a few that I feel , after 6 years of study, to bet my life on my understanding being full.
How complete is your study on this topic? It IS an interesting one. I’ve seen in my own life and in others that what we often call “believing” is an enthusiastic agreement or mental assent. This enthusiasm is mostly based on favorable circumstances surrounding the supposed “believing.” When the circumstances turn sour, the phrase “But, I WAS believing” is often heard. If it really was believing, like Shadrach’s, Mishaack’s, and Abendigo’s (please pardon my spelling), then it doesn’t flinch when the heat is turned up.
Very few people engage in REAL believing. For no women (or men) to believe some one extremely momentous promise of God for 4000 years is not so outrageous and assertion when seen in this light. Look at how we all, many thousands of us, were scattered and our “believing” dashed when the ministry melted down in the late 80’s.
Another thing to bring to the mix involving your question regarding the “women” preceding Mary is the figurative usage of the word woman. In God’s Word it’s often the case that “woman” refers to followers who could literally be of both sexes. One such example is all Israel being referred to as the “Bride of Christ.” This is an element I’d bring to the study of your topic, as well as anything else that God gave Dr to write on it in other places.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Mary was not an isolated individual. Her believing was a result of the overall support system that brought her up and taught her. It can be argued, to the appreciation of those feminists whose dandruff may get a little ruffed by your topic, that all the women that proceeded Mary were surrounded by defective support systems due to the neglect of the men in charge.
That Mary was the first to believe is the result of a VERY large number of favorable details finally lining up which were 4000 years in the making. That God would have been ready, willing, and able to pull off HIS end of the bargain in fulfilling Gen.3:16 should be comforting. That it took 4000 years for a woman to finally believe, REALLY believe, that promise should in NO WAY disparage the female sex. Without doing all the exhaustive research to answer your question, I CAN identify this one error (female disparagement) and cut it off at the pass.
As you master this subject and find all those references I’d be very interested in obtaining a list ot the page numbers.
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papajohn
he was a bad MAN who used GODS word to get what he wanted, money, power, and sex. we see it everyday and vpw, lcm, and the bot are no different than the others we see on t.v. or in the news.
why read PFAL when I can read the bible? why follow the teachings of a man when I can follow GODS words?
we all have shotcommings, but some people see them and try to improve. some people see them and use them to get what they want out of someone. vpw and lcm saw a multitude of people looking for the truth and used that against them to get what THEY wanted out of them. I was told how evil I was, how I couldn't make my own decissions about anything and that I should let my 'family coor' make them for me, how I was giving in to evil when I did certain things I enjoyed, how I was nothing without TWI. all this coming from people doing things much worse than I have ever done. the blind leading the blind but peeking from under their blindfold to steal from you?
some of you can hold vpw in awe as the 'mog' and thats ok if thats what you need to do to justify your life. but don't forget about how many people they hurt for their own uses. an affair (rape) that lcm had came to light and he was made to step down, but old vic did the same things and someone holds him in high places while shamming the other.
a ruffian then and never changed, only refined his art into a way of life that was rich while others truly did strive to make a difference and had to live on less than poverty level income and out of that support the 'ruffian'.
it's the same to me as the churches that build multi-million dollar buildings while preaching about how theres hungry poor people in their own community. tare down the buildings and feed the people.
I can forgive them, but I will always remember the evil that was done. that way I won't fall into their crap again.
love God, follow God, leave the vpw and lcm crap on the side of the road with the chaffe. stand with vpw and lcm and TWI or stand with God, it's up to you.
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Mike
papajohn,
We're ALL bad men, just different varieties of evil. Those of us who think they are NOT bad are the worst! They suffer from the most insideous sin of pride. Even your KJV testifies to this.
The Bible versions you read had some very bad men involved in their production, even the original writers. Paul, when he was called Saul, was MUCH worse than a ruffian.
I do leave the crap behind, in spite of its continually being brought and posted here. The good part is worth clinging to. The books are pure and uncontaminated, thanks to God's mighty hand, with the issues that bother you.
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Mike
Zshot,
You wrote: “If the integrity of vpw is (at best) questionable… __ Then, wouldn’t any “revelation” that vpw reported to have questionable? __ Also, why would God give the type of revelation that vpw is said to have received who has “integrity issues” along with “alleged", “indiscretions”? __ The Bible states the qualities that leadership is to have. IMO, VPW, LCM and others fall very short of the standard set.”
There is only one man who’s integrity is above question and that’s Jesus Christ.
All the writers of the Bible were sinners; some much worse than all the stories we’ve heard of Dr.
You should be questioning the writings of David and Solomon especially, if you maintain that attitude.
Did you read about the prophesy of Balaam, the prophet who was “crookeder than a dog’s hind legs” which I’ve posted much about here?
If you want to question God’s ability to get His revelations through to sinners, then you won’t be hearing much from above yourself.
I’m thankful that God can discern who can get His Word into written form, even though other areas of their lives may be quite untrustworthy. We are not able to make such a crucial call, so we play it safe and look for people who, on the surface, appear to have integrity before WE can entrust an important job to them This is an illusion, because we are often blind to the hidden flaws in those we think we can trust. God is capable of seeing deep. Sometimes a man’s flaws are VERY deep and we can’t see them.
Utilizing the “standard” you mention is the safest way we blind sense-knowledge humans can select other humans for important jobs. God is not blind and can see the deepest heart issues. God is capable of seeing that, though a man can’t be trusted in one area at all, in another area such as receiving revelation and putting it into written form, that same man CAN be trusted.
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