1. The state or quality of being entire or complete; wholeness; entireness; unbroken state; as, the integrity of an empire or territory.
2. Moral soundness; honesty; freedom from corrupting influence or motive; -- used especially with reference to the fulfillment of contracts, the discharge of agencies, trusts, and the like; uprightness; rectitude.
3. Unimpaired, unadulterated, or genuine state; entire correspondence with an original condition; purity.
Did VPW, LCM, & RFR have integrity?
doctor's degree
n : one of the highest academic degrees conferred by a university
Did VPW get a doctor's degree from a "university"?
u·ni·ver·si·ty
1. An institution for higher learning with teaching and research facilities constituting a graduate school and professional schools that award master's degrees and doctorates and an undergraduate division that awards bachelor's degrees.
Does this sound like Pikes Peak Seminary?
[This message was edited by Golfie on February 01, 2004 at 1:49.]
I suggest you turn your super powers of "comprehensive, thorough evaluation and assessment" on the man called David in the Old Testament of your Bible. He was a murderer, among other things. Does he pass your integrity test? God entrusted His Word to him anyway. Maybe you should reprove God.
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in ang get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
Thanks for clarifying things. I keep hearing things about "the fraudulant degree" but in a real sense, it was NOT fraudulent. Pike's Peak was a seminary, and granted degrees at the time. I find the opinions of those who turn the issue around (negate that at the time, it was NOT a degree mill) as worthless as they find the teachings of VPW.
I believe he did become corrupt. I do not believe he started out that way. But I find nothing noteworthy in debasing someone with fraudulent information. There's enough that is factual that can be used. Anyone who takes the time to find out what Research Geek shared will probably believe more in VPW than someone who has distorted the facts.
And why doesn't anyone ever discuss his Master's Degree at Princeton. Just how do you think he got into that papermill school.
Pointing out someone's corruptness with facts is a lot different than being like a lynch mob that has to dehumanize someone in order to make their case. In the end, it makes the underdog appear more worthty of sympathy.
David: The Word of God records that David repented of his sins before the Lord and was truly contrite.
Wierwille: No record exists anywhere that VPW repented of the sins he committed while supposedly acting as the "Man of God".
Didn't Wierwille himself say that when David was off gallivanting around with Bathsheba that he was out of fellowship, and only when he asked forgiveness was he the Man of God again?
As for the plagiarism charges, the texts that Dr used from other men actually belonged to God. God gave them to the other writers. God told Dr to use those texts. The other writers were only preparing the texts for Dr’s use to give to us.
How do you feel about God telling Joshua to claim the land that was occupied by others for 400 years? In the sense knowledge worldly perspective you come from, that would be stealing. But God REALLY owned that land, in spite of the ungodly squatters who were there. If you have a beef with Dr using those texts, you should feel just as outraged at Joshua, and at God, again.
Here are some passages from an old SNS tape where Dr stated how he was given access to the right men at the right time:
***
“And so I’d read the Word; I’d read it––I’d read it. Then I’d work, start looking––start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light––men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others––many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it.”
***
“But there was a hunger in my heart and God said He’d teach me the Word if I’d teach it, but I had to study, I had to work. And revelation begins––this is why I know this so well––revelation begins where the senses cease. What you can know by your senses, God expects you to know. He expects you to study the work that have already been worked out. Men like Bulinger; men like Stevie Ginsberg; God expected me to work those men and countless others. But, He taught me how to get the error out when there was any. And out of that process He taught me then, what was truth. And when there was no way of knowing it, and I’d researched to my fullest ability––tried to find out, then, if there is no other way, He showed it to me by direct revelation. Time and time again, He’d take the scripture and make it this big. I’m reading along in a verse and all at once there it is, two words, this big, for instance. Well, you have to be stupid to miss it, you know.”
I think you are avoiding one small aspect of VPW. If the man was so in tuned with God, and recieved so much Godly revelation, then why, why, WHY, did he put LCM in as President of the Way?? You know God, knowing what would happen to so many of us, would NOT have told VPW to let LCM take over the Way. Prove how Godly it was for him to put LCM in charge. That was his last official act as THE Man of God? If he had asked forgiveness for that, I am sure LCM would not have stayed in that position.
The plagairism charge is in place not only because he used someone elses work, but that he claimed it was HIS only, that was given to him by God. So you are basing the fact that the men in the Old Testament screwed up, just to justify VPWs screw up, is not even level. And just because other men wrote what VPW claimed word for word, as what God gave him, is absolutely on the other side of the fence! Nothing you can ever try to say is going to convince me that VPW was not a phoney for the most part.
The very fact that he dropped the ball into LCMs lap, prooves that. How could any man of God with half as much revelation, ever have picked LCM?? They can't and niether did VPW. He gave it to LCM probably because LCM knew what he was all about, but still remained his most loyal follower. VPW probably shared his women with him to. Probably where LCM learned it.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"..........but hey, I love to see a good Clothesline once in a while!
Is there ever going to be any hope for you to get the facts straight? :D-->
Decoding and coding abilities aren’t your strongest suit, certainly, not the most conspicuous character trait :D-->
You are certainly a wonderful and interesting person who is well intentioned and quite capable on being moderately comical in his literary compositions. On the other hand, some time ago, I quickly lose interest in reading your writings because they lack systemization and preciseness.
Do you actually think I am going to read your writings in this thread/site?
Friend, knock yourself out, although you run the risk in getting too obsessed with me ;)-->
Wayull, what a soo-prize, smikeol comes around to stick up for his idol (and I don't use that word lightly). If docvic(praise be his name) were still alive, he would never need toilet paper, because smikeol would always be right back there, kissing away.
That "Princeton" where docvic(praise be his name) got his master's is ABSOLUTELY NOT what we refer to as Princeton University, the prestigious Ivy League school. docvic(praise be his name) went to Princeton Theological Cemetery.
No Mike, you don't know if Wierwille repented. But there is ample evidence that he DIDN'T.
If the POP paper is to be believed at all, there is no record of VPW confessing his sin in this area, or of teaching anyone that TWI should quit with the sexual and emotional abuse stuff.
Sexual and verbal impropriety DEFINED the administration of Craig Martindale. If Wierwille ever repented, he certainly didn't make it clear enough to the second President of The Way that Craig would clean up his act.
Part of repentance is making restitution wherever possible. I don't recall excathedra or valerie or Dot or ANYONE telling us that they received a phone call from the man to say he was sorry for what he had done. I know I didn't in the small situation that I had with him. To the contrary, he wanted to put blame on me. And yet he had plenty of public opportunities to set the record straight. Had he opened his mouth, people would have hung on every word.
Mike, you have often tried to equate VPW's walk with God with that of David, and yet VP himself said that David was not in fellowship with God when he was out having Uriah killed. Yet VPW produced his books and classes WHILE he was giving his whole life over to his lusts. His was not the "oopsie, making a mistake" kind of sinning, but living knee-deep in sin and for sin.
Even if, on his deathbed, VPW suddenly saw the light and repented, then thank God, but it does not somehow purify the error-filled teachings he plagiarized and make them become God-breathed. It does not retroactively elevate him to MOG status. If God was talking to Victor Paul during those years, it was to say, "Stop hurting my children!"
I have been combing the records of what Dr DID teach and the record he left us for the past 6 years now.
There are many things that you all have forgotten or never picked up. At some time I will post some of the items you all THINK don't exist.
My interest on the sex angle is not paramount in my mind, although in the minds of most people here it is, or seems to be.
I know someone who has access to the CF&S class on tape. Either he or I may report on it's actual contents someday, rather than the contents of faulty memory.
I will throw this hint out now. There is a very revealing article Dr put in the Way Magazine in the year 1983. Anyone who has those 6 issues has the opportunity to find what I’m talking about. I know the exact issue and page, but I’m not saying what they are right now, here. I want those who have the issues, and the heart to search the actual printed records, to do that searching and find this item for themselves. They will, in the search process, find lots of other things they either forgot or never absorbed the first time around.
There are MANY things Dr said and printed where we all did NOT hang on his every word. By 1982 most of us were in an extreme habit of blowing off most EVERYTHING he said. The fact that his last teaching was lost on all the leadership and lost to most of the rest of us is but one example of this process of forsaking him. We did it to him the same way Paul was forsaken in the first century. Our acceptance of Dr in those final years was surface, senses, and for show only.
I challenge you all to actually get serious about these things, instead of shooting from the hip.
To discredit a person...discredit their abilities...discredit their work...discredit their moral fiber...to do this is a weak tool of debate or "proof" in debate.
When dealing with way-brain, discrediting vpw, lcm et al may serve to awaken one from the "fog" of following such persons.
However, the very foundation of way-brain is "having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."
Which means that unless one faces one's own willingness to follow whomever one feels has the advantage, one will never be free from being a follower.
In other words, convincing someone that vpw, lcm, et al were reprobate does nothing to convince someone to cease being a follower.
To address the thinking processes that brought someone to follow such persons...now there's a strike at the heart of the matter...imo...
One of the reasons I'm short on time for this thread is because I want to get back to your thread on the forest. I still haven't had time to read yesterday's posts much, much less respond.
I'm never quite sure what you like best - VPW, VPW's teachings, or God.
If I were to answer my own question (above) based on the material you post, it would appear that your allegiances fall in the order I have listed them. I do recognize that appearances aren't always valid, but we were taught to be careful about even "the appearance of evil". So, be careful, Mike. I mean it.
Could it be that Brady's topic of VPW's integrity has affected you, like it has so many of us? We all know he lied. (But everybody lies). Did he lie to YOU too?
And Brady,
It's a good point you make about "integrity" and VPW, since he spoke so much about integrity himself. Still, like Mike said, none of us know whether he asked forgiveness at the end, or not. TWI never taught much about forgiveness. So you gotta wonder. -Pat
Many times I've posted that when he was alive, I slightly disliked the man VPW at times.
In the past 6 years I have come to see that his WRITTEN teachings TO US are not his, but God's.
God's Word is as much God as God is God.
The order in my heart is:
1 - God/God's Word
2 - The written revealed Word
3 - The Word made flesh, Jesus Christ.
The reason I put Jesus last was not to antagonize the religious, but to indicate that without the written Word, Jesus could not have been the man he became, and without the written Word we will not be able to tell the difference between him and the antichrist.
The man VPW, with his strengths and weaknesses, is not even on the list, but I did admire his strengths and am thankful for his work that so greatly benefited me. His weaknesses, the few I saw first hand, were just as stinky as my old man nature (with a different variety of odor). What do yours smell like? You don’t have to answer that. It’s just rhetorical.
If I had known VPW better, I may have admired him more, or I may have had more stench to overcome. I don’t know. It’s impossible to get WHAT IFs straight.
I KNOW I don’t idolize him. I worship the God Who gave him an abundance of revelations sot that WE can benefit. Dr himself said on tape, wrote on paper, and chiseled in stone that he himself did not benefit from his own writings as much as we can benefit from them.
He said, printed, and chiseled: “I wish I were the man I KNOW to be.”
If that’s not what you folks are looking for in a plain admission of guilt, nothing will satisfy you.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Plus, I saw in a movie once, that love means never having to say you're sorry. That settles it! ;)-->
It's a good point you make about "integrity" and VPW, since he spoke so much about integrity himself. Still, like Mike said, none of us know whether he asked forgiveness at the end, or not. TWI never taught much about forgiveness. So you gotta wonder. –Pat
Hello Pat,
Even if VPW asked for forgiveness at the end, it doesn’t negate the fact that he lacked “integrity” throughout his life. That’s the main point and purpose of my letter.
Very little integrity was shown by vp..in the senses realm..he decietfully used the bible to sate his lusts...manipulated folks through their love for God...
Why would I believe that his representation of the bible or spiritual realm had any integrity?
Even the newest of newbies upon hearing lcm teach, or meeting him..... had the perception to recognise a blow heart and bully....
His choice of lcm as successor screams volumes about his spiritual *discernment* abilities...
We couldn`t trust his choice in successor in *Gods* minisry...How in the heck could we ever trust that he was any sharper when it came to discerning what God wanted us to know?
If you can`t love each other whom you CAN see .... How can you claim to love God?
In adition to his lack of integrety...he had a little trouble in THIS area as well
All things considered...he was unworthey of our trust, respect or prayers or love.
If what Wierwille taught had any value, it would stand on its own merits despite any sins, failures, shortcomings, abuses, what have you, of Wierwille himself. In fact, there are posters here who do believe that there was value, in whole or in part, in PFAL.
Believing that PFAL is "god-breathed", and thus inerrant, is absurd.
The veneration that most of us gave the man and everything that came out of his mouth while we were "in" was absurd.
While plagarism does not necessarily taint the material, it does taint the man.
Putting this con man on a pedestal with full knowledge of his character is to excuse and support his abuses.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
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integrity
1. The state or quality of being entire or complete; wholeness; entireness; unbroken state; as, the integrity of an empire or territory.
2. Moral soundness; honesty; freedom from corrupting influence or motive; -- used especially with reference to the fulfillment of contracts, the discharge of agencies, trusts, and the like; uprightness; rectitude.
3. Unimpaired, unadulterated, or genuine state; entire correspondence with an original condition; purity.
Did VPW, LCM, & RFR have integrity?
doctor's degree
n : one of the highest academic degrees conferred by a university
Did VPW get a doctor's degree from a "university"?
u·ni·ver·si·ty
1. An institution for higher learning with teaching and research facilities constituting a graduate school and professional schools that award master's degrees and doctorates and an undergraduate division that awards bachelor's degrees.
Does this sound like Pikes Peak Seminary?
[This message was edited by Golfie on February 01, 2004 at 1:49.]
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ex10
Hi Brady
Thank you so much for speaking your mind.
Love and hugs to you!
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Mike
Brady,
I suggest you turn your super powers of "comprehensive, thorough evaluation and assessment" on the man called David in the Old Testament of your Bible. He was a murderer, among other things. Does he pass your integrity test? God entrusted His Word to him anyway. Maybe you should reprove God.
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Mike
posted on the thread titled "Why lie?"
*************************************************************
by Research Geek
Doctor shmocker?
I'm not trying to defend vpw, but I do think that the facts need to be made straight. vpw did get a masters at Princeton which is not too shabby and he did go to Pikes Peak Seminary. I saw the home moves of his graduation. There were a number of people in his class. My wife and I searched for the place and found it when we visited Colorado. We drove up to it on a hill and were looking at the building when the owner of the house came out. We said hi and explained what we were doing and he invited us in and showed us around. The owner said that indeed the Seminary operated out of that building and even showed us a picture of the place years ago taken from across the valley. It was in a frame and mounted on the wall. The owner said that it was a condition of the house purchase agreement that the picture remain with the building. We took photos and showed them to vpw. He remembered the picture on the wall.
The main problem was that Pikes Peak Seminary utilized an "experimental" kind of education method. Because of that, its coursework was not accepted by many other institutions. vpw did put in the time and did get a doctors degree. But few institutions recognized it. Later the seminary fell into disrepute and its degree granting authority was abused and became a place where you could write in ang get a degree, similar to what you can now do on the Internet. That fact made his degree even more difficult to legitimize. I think that he kept the title obstinately, in spite of the criticism because he had done the work and put in the time. Unfortunately for him, he chose the wrong institution for the effort.
So it was not a lie. He believed that he had earned the title. Perhaps his decision to go was unwise. I think that if I was going to put in the effort, I would have chosen an institution with better credentials.
posted October 04, 2002 08:58
*************************************************************
posted by justwannabeme
vpw's credentials
Research Geek:
Thanks for clarifying things. I keep hearing things about "the fraudulant degree" but in a real sense, it was NOT fraudulent. Pike's Peak was a seminary, and granted degrees at the time. I find the opinions of those who turn the issue around (negate that at the time, it was NOT a degree mill) as worthless as they find the teachings of VPW.
I believe he did become corrupt. I do not believe he started out that way. But I find nothing noteworthy in debasing someone with fraudulent information. There's enough that is factual that can be used. Anyone who takes the time to find out what Research Geek shared will probably believe more in VPW than someone who has distorted the facts.
And why doesn't anyone ever discuss his Master's Degree at Princeton. Just how do you think he got into that papermill school.
Pointing out someone's corruptness with facts is a lot different than being like a lynch mob that has to dehumanize someone in order to make their case. In the end, it makes the underdog appear more worthty of sympathy.
posted October 06, 2002 22:36
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Zixar
Let's see...
David: The Word of God records that David repented of his sins before the Lord and was truly contrite.
Wierwille: No record exists anywhere that VPW repented of the sins he committed while supposedly acting as the "Man of God".
Didn't Wierwille himself say that when David was off gallivanting around with Bathsheba that he was out of fellowship, and only when he asked forgiveness was he the Man of God again?
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Mike
Zixar,
You haven't access to the records of Dr's relationship with God and all it's INs and OUTs.
That's a private deal between him and God.
If not, then I want access to YOUR records.
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Mike
Brady,
As for the plagiarism charges, the texts that Dr used from other men actually belonged to God. God gave them to the other writers. God told Dr to use those texts. The other writers were only preparing the texts for Dr’s use to give to us.
How do you feel about God telling Joshua to claim the land that was occupied by others for 400 years? In the sense knowledge worldly perspective you come from, that would be stealing. But God REALLY owned that land, in spite of the ungodly squatters who were there. If you have a beef with Dr using those texts, you should feel just as outraged at Joshua, and at God, again.
Here are some passages from an old SNS tape where Dr stated how he was given access to the right men at the right time:
***
“And so I’d read the Word; I’d read it––I’d read it. Then I’d work, start looking––start working, and as we began working this Word of God, is when light began to dawn. And wonderful things that God did for us, He brought men and women across our paths who came just at the right time to help us in our light––men who had gone so far, but no further. But God brought these men so that we could go further because these men brought light. Men like Rufus Mosely; men like E. Stanley Jones; men like Albert Cliff; men like Star Daley; God brought all of these men and others––many of them, across our pathways, just at the right time to add to this revelation and enable us to walk on the Word and understand it.”
***
“But there was a hunger in my heart and God said He’d teach me the Word if I’d teach it, but I had to study, I had to work. And revelation begins––this is why I know this so well––revelation begins where the senses cease. What you can know by your senses, God expects you to know. He expects you to study the work that have already been worked out. Men like Bulinger; men like Stevie Ginsberg; God expected me to work those men and countless others. But, He taught me how to get the error out when there was any. And out of that process He taught me then, what was truth. And when there was no way of knowing it, and I’d researched to my fullest ability––tried to find out, then, if there is no other way, He showed it to me by direct revelation. Time and time again, He’d take the scripture and make it this big. I’m reading along in a verse and all at once there it is, two words, this big, for instance. Well, you have to be stupid to miss it, you know.”
************************************************************
So, Dr credits many of these men with having received revelation here.
God is the real owner.
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WrestlenotAgainst
I think you are avoiding one small aspect of VPW. If the man was so in tuned with God, and recieved so much Godly revelation, then why, why, WHY, did he put LCM in as President of the Way?? You know God, knowing what would happen to so many of us, would NOT have told VPW to let LCM take over the Way. Prove how Godly it was for him to put LCM in charge. That was his last official act as THE Man of God? If he had asked forgiveness for that, I am sure LCM would not have stayed in that position.
The plagairism charge is in place not only because he used someone elses work, but that he claimed it was HIS only, that was given to him by God. So you are basing the fact that the men in the Old Testament screwed up, just to justify VPWs screw up, is not even level. And just because other men wrote what VPW claimed word for word, as what God gave him, is absolutely on the other side of the fence! Nothing you can ever try to say is going to convince me that VPW was not a phoney for the most part.
The very fact that he dropped the ball into LCMs lap, prooves that. How could any man of God with half as much revelation, ever have picked LCM?? They can't and niether did VPW. He gave it to LCM probably because LCM knew what he was all about, but still remained his most loyal follower. VPW probably shared his women with him to. Probably where LCM learned it.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood"..........but hey, I love to see a good Clothesline once in a while!
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Brady
Dearest Mike,
Is there ever going to be any hope for you to get the facts straight?
:D-->
Decoding and coding abilities aren’t your strongest suit, certainly, not the most conspicuous character trait
:D-->
You are certainly a wonderful and interesting person who is well intentioned and quite capable on being moderately comical in his literary compositions. On the other hand, some time ago, I quickly lose interest in reading your writings because they lack systemization and preciseness.
Do you actually think I am going to read your writings in this thread/site?
Friend, knock yourself out, although you run the risk in getting too obsessed with me
;)-->
Happy writings
:D-->
Brady
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GarthP2000
Brady,
ROFLMAO!!!
:D--> 
:D--> ... That's a classic! I love it!
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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outofdafog
"You haven't access to the records of Dr's relationship with God and all it's INs and OUTs.
That's a private deal between him and God."
Neither do you Mike, although you spend alot of time here trying to convince us of that.
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Steve!
Wayull, what a soo-prize, smikeol comes around to stick up for his idol (and I don't use that word lightly). If docvic(praise be his name) were still alive, he would never need toilet paper, because smikeol would always be right back there, kissing away.
That "Princeton" where docvic(praise be his name) got his master's is ABSOLUTELY NOT what we refer to as Princeton University, the prestigious Ivy League school. docvic(praise be his name) went to Princeton Theological Cemetery.
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shazdancer
No Mike, you don't know if Wierwille repented. But there is ample evidence that he DIDN'T.
If the POP paper is to be believed at all, there is no record of VPW confessing his sin in this area, or of teaching anyone that TWI should quit with the sexual and emotional abuse stuff.
Sexual and verbal impropriety DEFINED the administration of Craig Martindale. If Wierwille ever repented, he certainly didn't make it clear enough to the second President of The Way that Craig would clean up his act.
Part of repentance is making restitution wherever possible. I don't recall excathedra or valerie or Dot or ANYONE telling us that they received a phone call from the man to say he was sorry for what he had done. I know I didn't in the small situation that I had with him. To the contrary, he wanted to put blame on me. And yet he had plenty of public opportunities to set the record straight. Had he opened his mouth, people would have hung on every word.
Mike, you have often tried to equate VPW's walk with God with that of David, and yet VP himself said that David was not in fellowship with God when he was out having Uriah killed. Yet VPW produced his books and classes WHILE he was giving his whole life over to his lusts. His was not the "oopsie, making a mistake" kind of sinning, but living knee-deep in sin and for sin.
Even if, on his deathbed, VPW suddenly saw the light and repented, then thank God, but it does not somehow purify the error-filled teachings he plagiarized and make them become God-breathed. It does not retroactively elevate him to MOG status. If God was talking to Victor Paul during those years, it was to say, "Stop hurting my children!"
Shaz
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Mike
I'm short on time to respond here.
I have been combing the records of what Dr DID teach and the record he left us for the past 6 years now.
There are many things that you all have forgotten or never picked up. At some time I will post some of the items you all THINK don't exist.
My interest on the sex angle is not paramount in my mind, although in the minds of most people here it is, or seems to be.
I know someone who has access to the CF&S class on tape. Either he or I may report on it's actual contents someday, rather than the contents of faulty memory.
I will throw this hint out now. There is a very revealing article Dr put in the Way Magazine in the year 1983. Anyone who has those 6 issues has the opportunity to find what I’m talking about. I know the exact issue and page, but I’m not saying what they are right now, here. I want those who have the issues, and the heart to search the actual printed records, to do that searching and find this item for themselves. They will, in the search process, find lots of other things they either forgot or never absorbed the first time around.
There are MANY things Dr said and printed where we all did NOT hang on his every word. By 1982 most of us were in an extreme habit of blowing off most EVERYTHING he said. The fact that his last teaching was lost on all the leadership and lost to most of the rest of us is but one example of this process of forsaking him. We did it to him the same way Paul was forsaken in the first century. Our acceptance of Dr in those final years was surface, senses, and for show only.
I challenge you all to actually get serious about these things, instead of shooting from the hip.
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CoolWaters
To discredit a person...discredit their abilities...discredit their work...discredit their moral fiber...to do this is a weak tool of debate or "proof" in debate.
When dealing with way-brain, discrediting vpw, lcm et al may serve to awaken one from the "fog" of following such persons.
However, the very foundation of way-brain is "having men's persons in admiration because of advantage."
Which means that unless one faces one's own willingness to follow whomever one feels has the advantage, one will never be free from being a follower.
In other words, convincing someone that vpw, lcm, et al were reprobate does nothing to convince someone to cease being a follower.
To address the thinking processes that brought someone to follow such persons...now there's a strike at the heart of the matter...imo...
?????????????
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Mike
Hi CW,
:)-->
One of the reasons I'm short on time for this thread is because I want to get back to your thread on the forest. I still haven't had time to read yesterday's posts much, much less respond.
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Mike
shaz,
Here I am caught up in responding in spite of my tight schedule.
On the “Forest” thread I posted that in times of stress and temptation I can sometimes slip in and out of fellowship several times in one minute.
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Schwaigers
Mike,
I'm never quite sure what you like best - VPW, VPW's teachings, or God.
If I were to answer my own question (above) based on the material you post, it would appear that your allegiances fall in the order I have listed them. I do recognize that appearances aren't always valid, but we were taught to be careful about even "the appearance of evil". So, be careful, Mike. I mean it.
Could it be that Brady's topic of VPW's integrity has affected you, like it has so many of us? We all know he lied. (But everybody lies). Did he lie to YOU too?
And Brady,
It's a good point you make about "integrity" and VPW, since he spoke so much about integrity himself. Still, like Mike said, none of us know whether he asked forgiveness at the end, or not. TWI never taught much about forgiveness. So you gotta wonder. -Pat
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Mike
Schwaigers,
Many times I've posted that when he was alive, I slightly disliked the man VPW at times.
In the past 6 years I have come to see that his WRITTEN teachings TO US are not his, but God's.
God's Word is as much God as God is God.
The order in my heart is:
1 - God/God's Word
2 - The written revealed Word
3 - The Word made flesh, Jesus Christ.
The reason I put Jesus last was not to antagonize the religious, but to indicate that without the written Word, Jesus could not have been the man he became, and without the written Word we will not be able to tell the difference between him and the antichrist.
The man VPW, with his strengths and weaknesses, is not even on the list, but I did admire his strengths and am thankful for his work that so greatly benefited me. His weaknesses, the few I saw first hand, were just as stinky as my old man nature (with a different variety of odor). What do yours smell like? You don’t have to answer that. It’s just rhetorical.
If I had known VPW better, I may have admired him more, or I may have had more stench to overcome. I don’t know. It’s impossible to get WHAT IFs straight.
I KNOW I don’t idolize him. I worship the God Who gave him an abundance of revelations sot that WE can benefit. Dr himself said on tape, wrote on paper, and chiseled in stone that he himself did not benefit from his own writings as much as we can benefit from them.
He said, printed, and chiseled: “I wish I were the man I KNOW to be.”
If that’s not what you folks are looking for in a plain admission of guilt, nothing will satisfy you.
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Plus, I saw in a movie once, that love means never having to say you're sorry. That settles it!
;)-->
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Mike
OK everyone.
I'm taking over this thread. It's mine now.
I'm on top.
You all have to respond to me now.
Brady's been dethroned.
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Brady
Hello Pat,
Even if VPW asked for forgiveness at the end, it doesn’t negate the fact that he lacked “integrity” throughout his life. That’s the main point and purpose of my letter.
Brady
:)-->
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rascal
Very little integrity was shown by vp..in the senses realm..he decietfully used the bible to sate his lusts...manipulated folks through their love for God...
Why would I believe that his representation of the bible or spiritual realm had any integrity?
Even the newest of newbies upon hearing lcm teach, or meeting him..... had the perception to recognise a blow heart and bully....
His choice of lcm as successor screams volumes about his spiritual *discernment* abilities...
We couldn`t trust his choice in successor in *Gods* minisry...How in the heck could we ever trust that he was any sharper when it came to discerning what God wanted us to know?
If you can`t love each other whom you CAN see .... How can you claim to love God?
In adition to his lack of integrety...he had a little trouble in THIS area as well
All things considered...he was unworthey of our trust, respect or prayers or love.
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Oakspear
If what Wierwille taught had any value, it would stand on its own merits despite any sins, failures, shortcomings, abuses, what have you, of Wierwille himself. In fact, there are posters here who do believe that there was value, in whole or in part, in PFAL.
Believing that PFAL is "god-breathed", and thus inerrant, is absurd.
The veneration that most of us gave the man and everything that came out of his mouth while we were "in" was absurd.
While plagarism does not necessarily taint the material, it does taint the man.
Putting this con man on a pedestal with full knowledge of his character is to excuse and support his abuses.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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excathedra
?
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