My problem isn't with the word itself perse, but with how a good number of people use it, and that a good number of times ignorantly, if not rather selectively. (How many times have I already stated this, fer crying out loud? <_< )
Ie., a fringe group (like TWI fer example) does certain behaviors (that supposedly define cult), and they are a 'cult'.
A mainstream group (like Catholics fer example; no offense Mark O., as this isn't a Catholic-specific rant mind you), does those same things, or those same things happen in the group, and the 'cult' label often doesn't get applied.
Or the high emotionalism (which seems suspiciously 'cult-like', hmmmm?) that anti-cult activists often exhibit whenever their preciousssss cause is questioned or challenged (like many people who show some sort of validation to what they believe to be true that they learned in TWI, rather than condemning the doctrine wholesale). Hey, I think that a lot of what TWI has taught sux too, but I'm not going to think that someone is brainwashed because they view the doctrine more favorably than I do (with the possible exception of Smikeol, who's brain is evidently fried).
All that, and the questionable science (and I'm being very charitable here) re: mind control and brainwashing, ... well you know, it tends to make one (me) rather skeptical of the anti-cult field in various respects.
Does that mean that I'm going on a "but I never saw it happen in TWI, therefore it didn't _really_ happen" song-and-dance, ala Oldies and others? No! I know better than that. But I also know that there are quite a number of questionable holes in the anti-cult side as well, and this is from someone who has totally given up on TWI and other fundy dogmas, so the 'Wierwille apologist' label doesn't apply. Others (like Linda Z, et al) have also expressed similar reservations about the 'cult & mind control' mindset, and I just happen to largely agree with them.
I call the duck what it is. I guess I am like Bliss. However, the koolaide was different in twi. :)
Anyway, I am not ashamed to say I was in a cult. Also, I am not ashamed to say that I learned from my time in the cult and that I wouldn't change a thing about my life. There were many things I wished never happened, but again, it adds to my life experiences. I think we are the people who can help others understand why we were involved with the group we were. I now understand Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other group who is considered a cult. I understand why they think they way they do, and I also understand that they are people who just want to do what they feel is best for their life. Who am I to judge? I am thankful that my family didn't judge me during my time in TWI. It left the door open for them to reach me, and it left the door open when I was ready to reach out to them.
In no way do I ever mean to say that Mormons and JWs are bad. I may disagree with their beliefs. Bad things may happen in their groups as did happen in TWI. But that does not make all the people in the group bad. There are a lot of good people in non-mainstream groups.
Misguided biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry formed as a BG Leonard offshoot resulting
in a dysfunctional denomination of chair stringers.
I supported TWI for over 20 years with time and cash. I did receive some worthwhile teaching. I also wasted much effort that properly belonged primarily to my wife and then our children. Any group that inserts its teachings as THE WAY to God instead of Jesus Christ is practicing idolatry. Hence maybe rather than being involved in a cult, I got tricked into idolatry. Substituting chair stringing and class promoting in place of real worship. Replacing wide lens truth with tunnel vision that could only see narrowly. Seeing the tree, but missing the forest. Looking for evil instead of good. Expecting God to treat me better than folks outside the TWI bucket, because of what it made me. Not accepting God loves equally - because TWI had The Answer Man who could get us more favorable treatment than a "simple" Christian due to our advanced spiritual understanding. What a misguided (and immature) man I was.
Today, I readily admit to being duped. I can admit I was duped by a cult leader. I can admit being a follower of a cult leader. I'm not ready to admit I was part of a cult - pride is perhaps the greatest reason.
But one day I can tell my grandchildren, "When i was a young man I was duped into joining a cult."
So if you don't go for the 'I was part of a cult', its because of pride? :unsure: You have already admitted to being 'duped' by TWI, and have evidently learned from it. Doesn't sound like a pride problem to me.
In general the word cult signifies an offense to God and destroying of lives from either a person or limited system of thinking that is detremental to one's health possessions and family. Often quite quickly equaled to the occult which is far more of a negative or "devilish" ringing in the ears of those that do not understand what the devil is and are themselves entrenched in doctrines that are not labeled as such.
One could label the place that I work at as a cult and it would fit. It is a public school. And basically required for every person that is of the age to attend and there are of course the exceptions, homeschooling and such but still a plan with goals.
It's a basic misunderstanding of patterns and systems and the enormous energy of the human mind to direct it self in one direction. But And a BIG BUT, is that the human mind has the power to direct it's energy in many directions and not be caught into a trap of one direction or another, but to stay itself on a path of growing and learning without committing itself to anything but learning and growing.
Many capitalize on the power of the mind to focus and know how to draw it's attention in one direction. Such is what happens in public schools to teach, yet they know and teach also that the mind must switch directions quite quickly as the next class is sometimes only 30 minutes away weith new directions and instruction.
And it's left to the individual to assimulate the information and decide for themselves or learn what has been taught without committing it's resources totally to them. Leaving much room for more learning and the mind itself exploring alternatives.
Freedom to think is the key to great thinking and great thoughts that have not been thought before. So you can go further then you were taught for sure, it's the whole point of learning.
Public school = cult! I know that Evan is gonna just _love_ that one.
Anywho, I've been browsing thru the archives a few minutes ago, and came across this little jewel by Linda Z (she usually puts things a lot better than I do. :))
still don't like the use of the word "cult" because it's too loaded--loaded with emotion and loaded with so many shades of meaning that it loses meaning and loaded with pseudo-psychological definitions from people who encourage thinking that, to my mind, is just as "cult-like" as any alleged cult members'.
I recently read an article by a prof from a local university, challenging a lot of the "cult" cliches. He suggested the use of a different term: "high-demand religion." That, to me, communicates what twi was (and is) a whole lot better than a word whose meaning is so subjective. To me it says clearly what was wrong with twi, without all the excess pseudo-psych baggage. I like it.
Just think about it for a moment. It is devoid of the high emotional hype, while still focusing on the abuses suffered.
But hey! If you want to go "Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! ... so THERE!! (((ppthttthhhtt)))" by all means, knock yourself out.
That is good "high demand religion" I think VP used to say the diff between a cult and religion is the size. That sorta made some sense, but this says it better. And if I tell someone I was in a high demand religion, they maybe won't hide their children from me and scurry away. lol
For the first few years (20-25 years ago) I'd just tell folks that I was in a 'Biblical Research and Teaching Ministry'... the Jim Jones thing was still fresh in peoples minds... then that evolved into 'I was in a BR&TM that some called a cult' (15-20 years ago) but I'd then go on to add that even the followers in the first centure were called 'the cult of Jesus Christ' (that's what veepee taught us)... of course, I didn't know of all the rottenness at the core... then I just shortened it all to 'I used to be in a cult' and if folks expressed interest or a desire to know more, I'd tell them about it... still not knowing of the rottenness at the core...
Nowadays... I still tell folks I was in a cult... because I was... and I feel that TWI fits all of the criteria for both being a cult and being an evil cult... with all of the negative connotations... I don't really care what anyone I might say that to might think, heck, most just laugh and say something like "oh really, now it all makes sense" and we have a laugh and leave it at that... for those who want to know more, I tell them.
I'm not ashamed to admit I got taken in because I got taken in with a good heart and good intentions (same as most, if not all, of the folks who frequent this board) and I'm of the opinion that's it's no sin to get taken in by someone or something but it is a sin if you continue with it once you know better...
*shrug* I use the term "high demand religion" after reading Linda's post.
I think it communicates well because it doesn't automatically conjure up pictures of handcuffs, cults, kool-aid and people wearing purple with black tennis shoes.
I think it communicates well because it doesn't automatically conjure up pictures of handcuffs, cults, kool-aid and people wearing purple with black tennis shoes.
...but that's what TWI was/is... they just dress better most of the time...
Here's a list of things that are apparent in cult movements:
1) There is a lack of authority over the leader of the group.
The teachings in cult groups usually center around one person. They establish themselves as the authority because of a special "gift " they have or a special enlightenment they recieved. (See 2Cor 10:10-11;11:5) for how the false teachers were attempting to winthe believers over by degrading Paul and setting themselves up as "super apostles"
2) There is a sence of great self-pride, particularly within the leadership of the group, as well to isolate their followers because of their "superior" knowledge. (see 2Cor 11:6)
3) There is a desire for money and power. (see vs. 20)
4) There is moral impuity. (see 1Cor 5:1-2) Where it indicates a moral looseness of a member of the church living with his fathers wife.
5) There is a strong resistance on the part of the leaders to any form of accountabilty.(see 2Cor 11:15)
6) There is always some type of a "works" program involved. (see Gal 5:1 : Eph 2:8-9)
7) There is a twisting of the Scriptures to make them fit their teaching (see Rom 16:17-19)
Thanks everyone for the input and humor too! I'm glad other folks have gone thru this same thought process. I'd like to go with "dysfunctional denomination of chair stringers" (rofl), but don't think anyone would understand that!
I like Garth's input regarding the word "cult" as well. I've been through the cult definition so many times in my mind and with other folks. In my experience (in the South anyway) many Christian folk consider any group that beleives JC is not God is a cult. (Hmm...wonder since I'm not a member of a specific group now if I'd be considered a cult. )
I asked my psychologist after I left TWI, "Was I brainwashed? Can anyone be brainwashed?" He prefers the terms abuse and manipulation. As far as, "Was I in a cult?" His opinion is that the word cult can be a loaded term, and the definition seems to be relative. His opinion is that isolation and control are key factors for determining an organization as a cult.
Tom Strange thanks for the overview of your personal evolution regarding this topic. That is probably what I am going through. And Rhino (LOL), I think maybe I have that same thought.
I guess for now my thoughts are:
What am I comfortable saying at this point? Answer: I was part of an abusive religious organization. And I will probably still use the term "cultish." If the discussion continues (which is has quite a few times since I left) we can then talk "cults," if it is pertinent to the person I'm having the conversation with.
Do I believe TWI is a cult (according to the current secular (not religious) definition)? Answer: Yes
Since I believe that (TWI is a cult), am I being "honest" by not just coming out and saying, "I was in a cult"? Answer: Yes. A cult is an abusive organization. Whoever I am conversing with can come to their own conclusions about what label they want to put on it.
So THANKS again :) .
The posts and pms have been very helpful.
I'm joyed beyond words to be free from the DDCS (see first paragraph).
I like to tell people that I went to a "bible college"...it seems to impress them...
...I never bring up the word "cult" in my conversations with them...nor do I ever put it on a job resume.
Were the people who bought Enron stock "brainwashed"?...naw, they just bought into something that wasn't quite the way they thought it was...they got conned....just like we did. Only the guy who conned us did it in God's name...makes it more personal...the lousy bas* tards.
In my humble opinion. . . all organized religion can be considered a cult. In the TWI, there was and probably still is brainwashing happening. I remember when I first took the PFAL class in 1986 that I felt as though I was being brainwashed, but I was messed up emotionally and was not able to think clearly.
The longer I was involved through way corps training, etc., I could feel the boundaries of my mnd and heart being moved but did not know how to stop it from happening. I was just not strong enough I suppose but there were definitely some very strange spiritual (for lack of a better word) things going on there. If there is a devil, I'm pretty sure he was one who was really running things around there.
My son thinks it is SO COOL that we used to be in a cult.<BR><BR>I'm not kidding.
A lot of times, I'll work "I was raised in a born again christian cult" into a conversation. It has great shock value without the immediate devil-worshipping conotations.
I've noticed that the Mormons are being regarded less and less as a 'cult' nowadays.
I wonder if being more 'mainstream' might have anything to do with that?
You have Donny and Marie to thank for that.
Seriously, when your religious group tends to be hard-working, positive, cheerful, low-pressure to convert (at least in my area and in my experience) and prosperous, most people tend to gloss over the more "non-mainline" beliefs.
Jeeesh!! :blink: The Mormons can't come up with a better example than Donnie and Marie Osmond?!
... low-pressure to convert (at least in my area and in my experience)
I take it you never had to deal with their 'Bobbsy Twins' style missionaries, ... and, as indicated elsewhere (by Oakspear, I believe), mainstream groups can have their own version of high-pressure convertors.
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GarthP2000
Groucho, Bliss, and the rest,
My problem isn't with the word itself perse, but with how a good number of people use it, and that a good number of times ignorantly, if not rather selectively. (How many times have I already stated this, fer crying out loud? <_< )
Ie., a fringe group (like TWI fer example) does certain behaviors (that supposedly define cult), and they are a 'cult'.
A mainstream group (like Catholics fer example; no offense Mark O., as this isn't a Catholic-specific rant mind you), does those same things, or those same things happen in the group, and the 'cult' label often doesn't get applied.
Or the high emotionalism (which seems suspiciously 'cult-like', hmmmm?) that anti-cult activists often exhibit whenever their preciousssss cause is questioned or challenged (like many people who show some sort of validation to what they believe to be true that they learned in TWI, rather than condemning the doctrine wholesale). Hey, I think that a lot of what TWI has taught sux too, but I'm not going to think that someone is brainwashed because they view the doctrine more favorably than I do (with the possible exception of Smikeol, who's brain is evidently fried).
All that, and the questionable science (and I'm being very charitable here) re: mind control and brainwashing, ... well you know, it tends to make one (me) rather skeptical of the anti-cult field in various respects.
Does that mean that I'm going on a "but I never saw it happen in TWI, therefore it didn't _really_ happen" song-and-dance, ala Oldies and others? No! I know better than that. But I also know that there are quite a number of questionable holes in the anti-cult side as well, and this is from someone who has totally given up on TWI and other fundy dogmas, so the 'Wierwille apologist' label doesn't apply. Others (like Linda Z, et al) have also expressed similar reservations about the 'cult & mind control' mindset, and I just happen to largely agree with them.
With no apologies,
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Nottawayfer
I call the duck what it is. I guess I am like Bliss. However, the koolaide was different in twi. :)
Anyway, I am not ashamed to say I was in a cult. Also, I am not ashamed to say that I learned from my time in the cult and that I wouldn't change a thing about my life. There were many things I wished never happened, but again, it adds to my life experiences. I think we are the people who can help others understand why we were involved with the group we were. I now understand Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, or any other group who is considered a cult. I understand why they think they way they do, and I also understand that they are people who just want to do what they feel is best for their life. Who am I to judge? I am thankful that my family didn't judge me during my time in TWI. It left the door open for them to reach me, and it left the door open when I was ready to reach out to them.
In no way do I ever mean to say that Mormons and JWs are bad. I may disagree with their beliefs. Bad things may happen in their groups as did happen in TWI. But that does not make all the people in the group bad. There are a lot of good people in non-mainstream groups.
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Mr. Pipes
Groucho, I'd like to mix your alternatives:
Misguided biblical research, teaching, and fellowship ministry formed as a BG Leonard offshoot resulting
in a dysfunctional denomination of chair stringers.
I supported TWI for over 20 years with time and cash. I did receive some worthwhile teaching. I also wasted much effort that properly belonged primarily to my wife and then our children. Any group that inserts its teachings as THE WAY to God instead of Jesus Christ is practicing idolatry. Hence maybe rather than being involved in a cult, I got tricked into idolatry. Substituting chair stringing and class promoting in place of real worship. Replacing wide lens truth with tunnel vision that could only see narrowly. Seeing the tree, but missing the forest. Looking for evil instead of good. Expecting God to treat me better than folks outside the TWI bucket, because of what it made me. Not accepting God loves equally - because TWI had The Answer Man who could get us more favorable treatment than a "simple" Christian due to our advanced spiritual understanding. What a misguided (and immature) man I was.
Today, I readily admit to being duped. I can admit I was duped by a cult leader. I can admit being a follower of a cult leader. I'm not ready to admit I was part of a cult - pride is perhaps the greatest reason.
But one day I can tell my grandchildren, "When i was a young man I was duped into joining a cult."
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GarthP2000
So if you don't go for the 'I was part of a cult', its because of pride? :unsure: You have already admitted to being 'duped' by TWI, and have evidently learned from it. Doesn't sound like a pride problem to me.
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dancing
In general the word cult signifies an offense to God and destroying of lives from either a person or limited system of thinking that is detremental to one's health possessions and family. Often quite quickly equaled to the occult which is far more of a negative or "devilish" ringing in the ears of those that do not understand what the devil is and are themselves entrenched in doctrines that are not labeled as such.
One could label the place that I work at as a cult and it would fit. It is a public school. And basically required for every person that is of the age to attend and there are of course the exceptions, homeschooling and such but still a plan with goals.
It's a basic misunderstanding of patterns and systems and the enormous energy of the human mind to direct it self in one direction. But And a BIG BUT, is that the human mind has the power to direct it's energy in many directions and not be caught into a trap of one direction or another, but to stay itself on a path of growing and learning without committing itself to anything but learning and growing.
Many capitalize on the power of the mind to focus and know how to draw it's attention in one direction. Such is what happens in public schools to teach, yet they know and teach also that the mind must switch directions quite quickly as the next class is sometimes only 30 minutes away weith new directions and instruction.
And it's left to the individual to assimulate the information and decide for themselves or learn what has been taught without committing it's resources totally to them. Leaving much room for more learning and the mind itself exploring alternatives.
Freedom to think is the key to great thinking and great thoughts that have not been thought before. So you can go further then you were taught for sure, it's the whole point of learning.
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GarthP2000
Public school = cult!
I know that Evan is gonna just _love_ that one.
Anywho, I've been browsing thru the archives a few minutes ago, and came across this little jewel by Linda Z (she usually puts things a lot better than I do. :))
Just think about it for a moment. It is devoid of the high emotional hype, while still focusing on the abuses suffered.
But hey! If you want to go "Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! Cult! ... so THERE!! (((ppthttthhhtt)))" by all means, knock yourself out.
Party on Wayne! Party on Garth!
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rhino
That is good "high demand religion" I think VP used to say the diff between a cult and religion is the size. That sorta made some sense, but this says it better. And if I tell someone I was in a high demand religion, they maybe won't hide their children from me and scurry away. lol
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GarthP2000
... which brings up Yet Another Reason as to the Downside of the term 'Cult': social stigma.
"((Gasp)) You were in a ... cult?!? uhh, ... yeah! See ya later, it's getting late!"
Almost like you have something horrid, and need to redeem yourself for it. Simply because you were part of a ... 'cult'!
<_<
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bliss
"HIGH DEMAND RELIGION, HIGH DEMAND RELIGION, HIGH DEMAND RELIGION, HIGH DEMAND RELIGION!!
Hummmmnnnn?????? Nah! I like what this comunicates to the "hearer". I think many people in many religions, CAN RELATE!!
But, I like to stick out from the crowd!
cult
LOL
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Tom Strange
For the first few years (20-25 years ago) I'd just tell folks that I was in a 'Biblical Research and Teaching Ministry'... the Jim Jones thing was still fresh in peoples minds... then that evolved into 'I was in a BR&TM that some called a cult' (15-20 years ago) but I'd then go on to add that even the followers in the first centure were called 'the cult of Jesus Christ' (that's what veepee taught us)... of course, I didn't know of all the rottenness at the core... then I just shortened it all to 'I used to be in a cult' and if folks expressed interest or a desire to know more, I'd tell them about it... still not knowing of the rottenness at the core...
Nowadays... I still tell folks I was in a cult... because I was... and I feel that TWI fits all of the criteria for both being a cult and being an evil cult... with all of the negative connotations... I don't really care what anyone I might say that to might think, heck, most just laugh and say something like "oh really, now it all makes sense" and we have a laugh and leave it at that... for those who want to know more, I tell them.
I'm not ashamed to admit I got taken in because I got taken in with a good heart and good intentions (same as most, if not all, of the folks who frequent this board) and I'm of the opinion that's it's no sin to get taken in by someone or something but it is a sin if you continue with it once you know better...
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Belle
*shrug* I use the term "high demand religion" after reading Linda's post.
I think it communicates well because it doesn't automatically conjure up pictures of handcuffs, cults, kool-aid and people wearing purple with black tennis shoes.
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Tom Strange
...but that's what TWI was/is... they just dress better most of the time...
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GarthP2000
... and what's wrong with black tennis shoes? I think that they're cool looking. Plus they easier to hide the dirt.
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dmiller
Grass stains still show up on them -- when ya mow the lawn!
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Sunnyfla
Here's a list of things that are apparent in cult movements:
1) There is a lack of authority over the leader of the group.
The teachings in cult groups usually center around one person. They establish themselves as the authority because of a special "gift " they have or a special enlightenment they recieved. (See 2Cor 10:10-11;11:5) for how the false teachers were attempting to winthe believers over by degrading Paul and setting themselves up as "super apostles"
2) There is a sence of great self-pride, particularly within the leadership of the group, as well to isolate their followers because of their "superior" knowledge. (see 2Cor 11:6)
3) There is a desire for money and power. (see vs. 20)
4) There is moral impuity. (see 1Cor 5:1-2) Where it indicates a moral looseness of a member of the church living with his fathers wife.
5) There is a strong resistance on the part of the leaders to any form of accountabilty.(see 2Cor 11:15)
6) There is always some type of a "works" program involved. (see Gal 5:1 : Eph 2:8-9)
7) There is a twisting of the Scriptures to make them fit their teaching (see Rom 16:17-19)
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rascal
That about sums up twi :(
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I Love Bagpipes
Thanks everyone for the input and humor too! I'm glad other folks have gone thru this same thought process. I'd like to go with "dysfunctional denomination of chair stringers" (rofl), but don't think anyone would understand that!
I like Garth's input regarding the word "cult" as well. I've been through the cult definition so many times in my mind and with other folks. In my experience (in the South anyway) many Christian folk consider any group that beleives JC is not God is a cult. (Hmm...wonder since I'm not a member of a specific group now if I'd be considered a cult.
)
I asked my psychologist after I left TWI, "Was I brainwashed? Can anyone be brainwashed?" He prefers the terms abuse and manipulation. As far as, "Was I in a cult?" His opinion is that the word cult can be a loaded term, and the definition seems to be relative. His opinion is that isolation and control are key factors for determining an organization as a cult.
Tom Strange thanks for the overview of your personal evolution regarding this topic. That is probably what I am going through. And Rhino (LOL), I think maybe I have that same thought.
I guess for now my thoughts are:
What am I comfortable saying at this point? Answer: I was part of an abusive religious organization. And I will probably still use the term "cultish." If the discussion continues (which is has quite a few times since I left) we can then talk "cults," if it is pertinent to the person I'm having the conversation with.
Do I believe TWI is a cult (according to the current secular (not religious) definition)? Answer: Yes
Since I believe that (TWI is a cult), am I being "honest" by not just coming out and saying, "I was in a cult"? Answer: Yes. A cult is an abusive organization. Whoever I am conversing with can come to their own conclusions about what label they want to put on it.
So THANKS again :) .
The posts and pms have been very helpful.
I'm joyed beyond words to be free from the DDCS (see first paragraph).
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GrouchoMarxJr
I like to tell people that I went to a "bible college"...it seems to impress them...
...I never bring up the word "cult" in my conversations with them...nor do I ever put it on a job resume.
Were the people who bought Enron stock "brainwashed"?...naw, they just bought into something that wasn't quite the way they thought it was...they got conned....just like we did. Only the guy who conned us did it in God's name...makes it more personal...the lousy bas* tards.
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ImSunny2
In my humble opinion. . . all organized religion can be considered a cult. In the TWI, there was and probably still is brainwashing happening. I remember when I first took the PFAL class in 1986 that I felt as though I was being brainwashed, but I was messed up emotionally and was not able to think clearly.
The longer I was involved through way corps training, etc., I could feel the boundaries of my mnd and heart being moved but did not know how to stop it from happening. I was just not strong enough I suppose but there were definitely some very strange spiritual (for lack of a better word) things going on there. If there is a devil, I'm pretty sure he was one who was really running things around there.
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def59
I'd be curious to see how the Mormons, JW's do on this list.
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GarthP2000
I've noticed that the Mormons are being regarded less and less as a 'cult' nowadays.
I wonder if being more 'mainstream' might have anything to do with that?
<_<
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bek
A lot of times, I'll work "I was raised in a born again christian cult" into a conversation. It has great shock value without the immediate devil-worshipping conotations.
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Kevlar2000
You have Donny and Marie to thank for that.
Seriously, when your religious group tends to be hard-working, positive, cheerful, low-pressure to convert (at least in my area and in my experience) and prosperous, most people tend to gloss over the more "non-mainline" beliefs.
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GarthP2000
I take it you never had to deal with their 'Bobbsy Twins' style missionaries, ... and, as indicated elsewhere (by Oakspear, I believe), mainstream groups can have their own version of high-pressure convertors.
<_<
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