lifted straight from 50s and early 60s pop psychology which included books by norman Vincent Peale, Dale Carnegie, Earl Nightingale, and Mazwell Maltz. Postive thinking was
hardly a new idea by the time PFAL hit
the streets. VPW did introduce the idea
that you could have fear in your life which
could kill your children - how whacked was
that ?
And well before session 12 I asked legit questions about VPW's academic background since he made authoritative references to the "original texts" and how the bible was originally organized. I was more or less scorned for my conerns."Well he IS a DOCTOR - shouldn't that good enough for you ?". Yea. but where did he study ? How many languages does he speak ? Where is his doctoral thesis ? With whom did he study ? I was given the run-a-round and politely asked to keep quiet in front of the other students who were approaching the class with "meekness" whereas I was not.
Oh yea and LONG before session 12 , like years,
I ran into a group of charismatic christians whose whole purpose was to intoduce people into
manfiestations - It was like they would talk to you for a while, discuss the new birth and if you responded positivley they would lead you into SIT. Or they would just give you this very small phamplet which had some instructions on how to do it. No donations requested, no address on the phamplet, - just passing along the info. I guess I disappointed my class leader
when I told her that I was already SITing long
before I had even heard of PFAL. She was dubious
and had that look in here eye like I was possessed or something but later she didn't doubt it.
For many years I've seen PFAL as a mish-mash of
different styles. VPW wanted to be respected like some master teacher who had the inside
track on god when in fact he was cobbling together teachings by others (only diehard VPW loyalists deny this) and attempted to marktet it as the be all , end all self improvement class.
And even that was a lie because before you took
PFAL they were telling you that that was the
pinnacle of learning the HOW of the abundant lfe. Imagine my disappointment at hearing that
I had to take the supporting classes , go WOW, and then go to the Advanced class before I could
REALLY live the abundant life. It was basically
a pyramid scheme. Take more clases which cost more money while pulling in others to take the same classes.
At least with amway you knew what you were getting.
The goals of pfal were never attainable if you used it's system of thinking. Always a class or program away. The elusive "walk with God" only got further away.
Funny - life is a whole lot simpler with out all that stuff to remember.
I truly dont see that 'PFAL' had a spell over me, that needed to be broken.
I read things here. Some things I agree with, other things I do not agree with.
I like PFAL.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
There are some parts of pfal that aren't too bad but as a whole I reject it's teachings and it's message. And I reject it's teacher. A loveless bastard who only promoted himself and his selfish greeds.
You like pfal. OK
I do not.
The only way anything good happened in twi was because of other people who truly loved God or at least actually cared about the well being of others.
[This message was edited by Vertical Limit on July 30, 2003 at 2:06.]
quote:What are some of the things you have seen or learned that helped you to see that pfal isn't or wasn't all it claimed to be?
Good question, VL.
Heerz my take on it.
It helped me to see that vpw/twi/pfal was really a small part of a larger movement in Christianity.
About a century ago, as publishing modernized, the availability of reference books increased. What was once the arcane realm of theological academia became every wannabe prophet’s fantasy. Like a gold rush, the non-denominational movement was on. Traditional back-woods bible-thumpers (bless their heart) found a new tool to “really really really unlock the secrets of the bible universe.” Laymen who weren’t learning from tradition saw a way to start their own thing. An already-fractured protestant Christianity bubbled with new independent bible studies, groups, camps, and universities. The increased availability of things like radio, film, and tape blurred previous denominational lines to mud. Mix this with the veritable zoo of non-bible spiritual/psychological movements and publications, and a quite ecclectic Christianity was born--a grass-roots holy spirit free-for-all. VPW was surfing its waves to pseudo-independence. You know, “I wanna be different, like everyone else.”
Then the counter-culture of the 50s and 60s must have really whipped it all into a frenzy of non-conformity. And then you throw in Christian bookstores, strip-mall fellowships, video and cheap rent-a-halls, and a wide variety of MOGFODATs popped up. So many, I would say that they were largely ignorant of all the other claims of MOGFODAT-hood. And since then, the age of information has really muddied the waters even further.
In short, it seems like a few generations of bible hacks and faith-based Ponzi schemes had all discovered books at once…and simply spazzed out.
btw – I try not to place a value of good or evil on this “reformation” as a whole. I think both hurt and harm comes out of societal shake-ups--regardless of any of the “shakers” quality or intentions. There are always genuine teachers with hearts of gold, tho few and far between, as it usually is with gold. Another topic, I suppose.
Another thing that helped me understand that PFAL wasn't all that was the Private Interpreatation teaching by VPW in PFAL.
II Peter 1:20 (KJV)
"Knowing this first that no prophecy of the sctripture is of any private interpretation."
Wierwille tells us in the class that neither you nor I dare interpret scripture.
He then goes on and tells us what the scripture means throughout the rest of the class!
This "teaching" on P.I. had many in TWI fear that they might mishandle Gods word. Therefore most in TWI left the interpreation of scripture up to VPW or other "leaders".
Because of this P.I "teaching" many in TWI were afraid to attempt to interpret scripture and just bought into what VPW came up.
Now look at the NIV translation of this verse. II Peter 1:20;
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of the scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation."
When I read this translation, I understand that it's not talking about those who read the scripture. It's talking about the men who wrote the scripture. They wrote it by revelation from God. In other words they didn't make it up. It wasn't the prophets own interpreation.
Even in the context of this verse it's clear to me they're talking about the origin of scripture not the interpretation of it.
We are supposed to be workmen of the word and study to show ourselves approved etc.
But instead many of us in TWI just bought into VPW telling us that we dare not interpret it, and therefore allowed VPW or others to interpret scripture for us.
I'm not saying that we are to make up our own interpretation of scripture, or mishandle the word, but at least for me the understaning of II Peter 1:20 helped free me of completely buying into VPW's interpretations.
Yeah! That 2 Peter 1:20 thing certainly worked to Wierwielle's advantage.
And thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Not trying to close it (like that works) but just because I don't comment on the comments doesn't mean I don't like 'em. You all knew that anyway.
The biggest thing I have learned is that I'm not going to always get what I want. PFAL indoctornated in me that all I had to do was believe God "get my believing UP there) speak in tongues and get mind pics of what I want and I'll get it.
It took me over 20 years to understand that sometimes the direction I'm pointing myself towards isn't always the direction that God is pointing me to.
I think many people were manipulated by "The Way" this way, or thinking that they had rotten believing when their hearts were telling them that He would work through a situation another way,which wasn't always proper protocal, according to the wayfers. Or hell, other peoples opinions period for that matter.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
Yeah, Rottie, PFAL pretended to be more than it was or could be. People have said that the attitude of "I've got the answers!" that VP ridiculed in the class WAS HIS attitude for years, but, even though I've been away from TWI for eight years now (gosh that's not really very long compared to the 25 or so years I was in), I've come to see it in a bigger way.
"It's no disgrace to know, err, to not know [VP's Freudian slip, not mine - i.e, it's no disgrace to have all the answers - maybe he felt subconscious guilt for being a pompous a$$ fraud, even back then]. It's a disgrace to indicate that you know when you do not know [OMG, I have this whole freakin tape almost word for word still in my mind]. It's no disgrace to be stupid [ha, seems like a character trait of VP, Craig, & yes, Mike to call everyone who doesn't believe like they do stupid], it's a disgrace to stay stupid when the class on Power for Abundant Living is..."
(deep breath - deep sigh)
So, PFAL has all the answers to give you all the promises that are on the green card & more - all the answers to rescue you from your stupidity in any category so you don't have to be the stupid a$$ that you are. May God forgive us, we voluntarily subjected ourselves to this degrading abusive bull$hit.
So, here comes this kid - 14, maybe 13 years old, whatever. His parents are alcoholics maybe, abusive, divorced. The kid hasn't an example one on how to form a stable relationship with a friend, a lover, how to be a parent - nothing. He or she is a CHILD, maybe a young youth, maybe 40 years old, but doesn't know jack about how to live life. Tada! here comes PFAL to save the day. And this guy with a thin black tie, who smokes menthol shorties like he'll die if he doesn't do it everywhere all the time and has subservients wherever he goes trained to feed him Drambuie when no one is looking, who has a lifelong habit of abandoning his children to...while he... - what's the difference? This pathetic, abusive man teaches this poor kid who is looking for answers and deliverance from abuse that he is an a$$hole who can be smart if he learns PFAL - that all the answers are there. AND (here is the clincher) he will continue to be an a$$hole if he doesn't pick up on this opportunity. Only now he'll be a disgraced a$$hole because he could have gotten his answers in PFAL. Okay, just take the concept of responsibility for all ones actions being on the individaul and stick it someplace dark for a minute or two. Does this kid have any chance in hell of being able to deal with these issues responsibly that all his roll models have cratered to? No, he has no answers.
What a motivator! Talk about appealing to fear. VP did it better than anyone he talked about in American society.
This person doesn't have answers. He can't. He is not responsible. He has no guilt in this regard unless someone shows him answers and he refuses them.
Did VP have anything to offer this kid? Did PFAL? Did VP first partake of the fruit of the wisdom of PFAL and now enjoy a loving relationship with his wife? His sons? His daughters?
How about his disciple chosen to receive his mantle, Craig? How about his disciple, Mike?
Aw, that's okay VP, Craig, Mike, Donna, Rosalie, whoever abides under the mantle. It is no disgrace to not know.
Ah, yes, but it is a disgrace to indicate that you know when you do not know. PFAL can do no more for others than it did for you.
Jesus, on the other hand, can deliver to the uttermnost, those that come to him.
That realization did a lot to break the spell of PFAL for me.
Tom (I'm not going to go back & spellcheck - okay?)
It was VPW's "Ha, I told you so!" to his old teachers and church leaders.
It was VPW's excuse to drink and smoke and be un-faithful to his wife, to lie and cheat and steal from faithful followers; and still call him self Christian. Why? Because it's only your body that is sinning not your Spirit.
It was a waste of 36 hours of my life every time I took it. (More when I was on the class crew)
It was a source of pain and confusion for many years.
It is probly the best recording of mind-control and cult-indoctrination ever developed and it should be studied by universities around the world.
I had never looked at this thread until today, when I saw this, posted August 1.
quote:Originally posted by Ginger Tea:
I wonder how Long Gone would weigh in on this?
Hi Long Gone ~ wave
Wave back.
I guess I’ll have to weigh in.
I was never under the spell of PFAL. I was under the spell of the people of TWI and the illusion of love I desperately wanted to believe was real. I never believed much of TWI’s spiel, but I tried to, because I would have happily believed a delusion if that would have made the illusion I chased real to me.
As for PFAL:
The very first thing that struck me was Wierwille’s claim that the Bible was either God’s Word from Genesis through Revelation, or it wasn’t God’s Word anywhere. I knew a little about how the Protestant canon came about, and I knew that wasn’t logical or necessarily true. The next thing I noticed was Wierwille using individual verses out of context to support points they didn’t support. I noticed a lot of other problems, as well, but I quickly learned to keep them to myself. (The “love” cooled quickly when I mentioned them to others.) All of that was the first time I took PFAL. As time went on, those things became more problematic for me, as did many other things. However, the illusion was more attractive than reality, so I continued to pursue it for years. Finally, I decided I’d had enough. I’ll take reality, with all its ugliness.
quote:Vertical said: There are patterns in the class that got us to logically conclude that Wierwille was the man of god of the world and a bunch of other garbage.
You mean like when the Doctor was in Jabbapore on the train after all the great miracles and the Mayor came to see "the mawn of God in his car" to offer him the keys to the City? :D-->
quote:Irregardless of what VPW meant, my current belief on what the Abundant LIfe Jesus came to bring is a lot of life, or eternal life.
Outin88,
Funny you bring that up because your current belief was VPW's belief when he wrote that on page 9 of Jesus Christ is not God in the introduction. I was surprised reading that, because before that, we were taught that the abundant life meant "life in all of its manifestations", physical, material, spiritual, etc. What a surprise to learn that Dr. was adding a wholly different twist to it. Today, I concur and believe what you believe and what VP wrote in JCING.
quote:I truly dont see that 'PFAL' had a spell over me, that needed to be broken...I read things here. Some things I agree with, other things I do not agree with....I like PFAL.
Galen,
I'm with you, I like PFAL too and thought it was excellent. A few things now stick out like a sore thumb, such as the purported "law of believing" and "Christians Believe The Preposterous"; but other things so overwhelmingly made up for that: Jesus is Lord, Christ in You the Hope of Glory, Salvation by Grace, being sealed with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc. I'm very glad TWI (VPW and many others) were around to teach those things.
I realized PFAL and the way was ate up with the dumb *** when my ***-*** husband left me after emotional abuse of 3 years. I "beleived God" in all the ways I was taught and got married to Hasatan......
PFAL was well designed to lead you down the garden path of blind obedience.
It was touted as "a class on keys", a way for you to be able to read and understand the bible without having to depend on what "Right Rev. so-and-so" said, or what was written in commentaries.
But it was, in reality, an introduction to taking what Wierwille said as gospel.
Oh, you didn't do that? You actually checked out those translations of Aramaic words and verified the translations according to usage? You found independent verification of his definitions of Greek words?
Wierwille does a good job in spots, especially early in the class, of letting the bible speak for itself. He points out differences between the clear reading of the bible and what tradition teaches. He starts off by documenting biblically most of what he says.
Little by little he starts moving away from that. While reading the King James, he continually tells us what the words really mean, and throws out definitions that occur nowhere else. Because he started out plainly reading what was written and taught us some pretty straightforward "keys", we swallowed what he taught without question.
Whether or not you still like PFAL, whether or not you saw any good in it, whether or not you thought it accomplished a godly purpose, the PFAL class was designed to put you under a "spell", to captivate you and cause you to accept without critical thinking.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
I think there was some good bible taught in the class. And a lot of self-promotion and teachings that served the teacher rather than the Lord. And Yes it did cast a "spell" on many. When 1 thing is proved wrong in the class, other parts are on shakey ground also.
For me I had to take it apart in my mind then reboot in order to prove to myself what was the good I got from the class. It seems there was a few good things in it, in my opinion.
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diazbro
Even back in 76 I pointed out to my local
leaders that the "law of believing" was
lifted straight from 50s and early 60s pop psychology which included books by norman Vincent Peale, Dale Carnegie, Earl Nightingale, and Mazwell Maltz. Postive thinking was
hardly a new idea by the time PFAL hit
the streets. VPW did introduce the idea
that you could have fear in your life which
could kill your children - how whacked was
that ?
And well before session 12 I asked legit questions about VPW's academic background since he made authoritative references to the "original texts" and how the bible was originally organized. I was more or less scorned for my conerns."Well he IS a DOCTOR - shouldn't that good enough for you ?". Yea. but where did he study ? How many languages does he speak ? Where is his doctoral thesis ? With whom did he study ? I was given the run-a-round and politely asked to keep quiet in front of the other students who were approaching the class with "meekness" whereas I was not.
Oh yea and LONG before session 12 , like years,
I ran into a group of charismatic christians whose whole purpose was to intoduce people into
manfiestations - It was like they would talk to you for a while, discuss the new birth and if you responded positivley they would lead you into SIT. Or they would just give you this very small phamplet which had some instructions on how to do it. No donations requested, no address on the phamplet, - just passing along the info. I guess I disappointed my class leader
when I told her that I was already SITing long
before I had even heard of PFAL. She was dubious
and had that look in here eye like I was possessed or something but later she didn't doubt it.
For many years I've seen PFAL as a mish-mash of
different styles. VPW wanted to be respected like some master teacher who had the inside
track on god when in fact he was cobbling together teachings by others (only diehard VPW loyalists deny this) and attempted to marktet it as the be all , end all self improvement class.
And even that was a lie because before you took
PFAL they were telling you that that was the
pinnacle of learning the HOW of the abundant lfe. Imagine my disappointment at hearing that
I had to take the supporting classes , go WOW, and then go to the Advanced class before I could
REALLY live the abundant life. It was basically
a pyramid scheme. Take more clases which cost more money while pulling in others to take the same classes.
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George Aar
Diazbro,
"It was basically
a pyramid scheme. Take more clases which cost more money while pulling in others to take the same classes."
Reality is a harsh taskmaster, isn't it?
The realization that TWI was simply a religion-flavored Amway really took me up short for a while...
geo.
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Vertical Limit
At least with amway you knew what you were getting.
The goals of pfal were never attainable if you used it's system of thinking. Always a class or program away. The elusive "walk with God" only got further away.
Funny - life is a whole lot simpler with out all that stuff to remember.
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fortunateone
My observation is that PFAL teaches
fear better than believing.
And THE CULT of THE WAY became "the controlling fears of the various taskmasters of leadership."
LCM's class [thank God I can't
remember the name of that one anymore]
is different in that it confuses sex with God.
More faults major travesty.
FORTUNATEONE to be out of TWI
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Galen
I truly dont see that 'PFAL' had a spell over me, that needed to be broken.
I read things here. Some things I agree with, other things I do not agree with.
I like PFAL.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
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Vertical Limit
There are some parts of pfal that aren't too bad but as a whole I reject it's teachings and it's message. And I reject it's teacher. A loveless bastard who only promoted himself and his selfish greeds.
You like pfal. OK
I do not.
The only way anything good happened in twi was because of other people who truly loved God or at least actually cared about the well being of others.
[This message was edited by Vertical Limit on July 30, 2003 at 2:06.]
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sirguessalot
Heerz my take on it.
It helped me to see that vpw/twi/pfal was really a small part of a larger movement in Christianity.
About a century ago, as publishing modernized, the availability of reference books increased. What was once the arcane realm of theological academia became every wannabe prophet’s fantasy. Like a gold rush, the non-denominational movement was on. Traditional back-woods bible-thumpers (bless their heart) found a new tool to “really really really unlock the secrets of the bible universe.” Laymen who weren’t learning from tradition saw a way to start their own thing. An already-fractured protestant Christianity bubbled with new independent bible studies, groups, camps, and universities. The increased availability of things like radio, film, and tape blurred previous denominational lines to mud. Mix this with the veritable zoo of non-bible spiritual/psychological movements and publications, and a quite ecclectic Christianity was born--a grass-roots holy spirit free-for-all. VPW was surfing its waves to pseudo-independence. You know, “I wanna be different, like everyone else.”
Then the counter-culture of the 50s and 60s must have really whipped it all into a frenzy of non-conformity. And then you throw in Christian bookstores, strip-mall fellowships, video and cheap rent-a-halls, and a wide variety of MOGFODATs popped up. So many, I would say that they were largely ignorant of all the other claims of MOGFODAT-hood. And since then, the age of information has really muddied the waters even further.
In short, it seems like a few generations of bible hacks and faith-based Ponzi schemes had all discovered books at once…and simply spazzed out.
btw – I try not to place a value of good or evil on this “reformation” as a whole. I think both hurt and harm comes out of societal shake-ups--regardless of any of the “shakers” quality or intentions. There are always genuine teachers with hearts of gold, tho few and far between, as it usually is with gold. Another topic, I suppose.
Todd
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alfakat
very insightful, sirg--sounds like a good summation of how we got good ole twi...
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Vertical Limit
galen-
Even after I left twi i thought pfal was right but then some things started to be very clear.
I don't mean to attack you. My apologies if it came across like that.
sirguessalot-
Were we among those who spazzed out? Maybe to some degree huh.
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sirguessalot
Thanks alfakat.
VL, yeah.
I know I spazzed a bit.
I'm sure others did too.
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Outin88!
Another thing that helped me understand that PFAL wasn't all that was the Private Interpreatation teaching by VPW in PFAL.
II Peter 1:20 (KJV)
"Knowing this first that no prophecy of the sctripture is of any private interpretation."
Wierwille tells us in the class that neither you nor I dare interpret scripture.
He then goes on and tells us what the scripture means throughout the rest of the class!
This "teaching" on P.I. had many in TWI fear that they might mishandle Gods word. Therefore most in TWI left the interpreation of scripture up to VPW or other "leaders".
Because of this P.I "teaching" many in TWI were afraid to attempt to interpret scripture and just bought into what VPW came up.
Now look at the NIV translation of this verse. II Peter 1:20;
"Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of the scripture came about by the prophets own interpretation."
When I read this translation, I understand that it's not talking about those who read the scripture. It's talking about the men who wrote the scripture. They wrote it by revelation from God. In other words they didn't make it up. It wasn't the prophets own interpreation.
Even in the context of this verse it's clear to me they're talking about the origin of scripture not the interpretation of it.
We are supposed to be workmen of the word and study to show ourselves approved etc.
But instead many of us in TWI just bought into VPW telling us that we dare not interpret it, and therefore allowed VPW or others to interpret scripture for us.
I'm not saying that we are to make up our own interpretation of scripture, or mishandle the word, but at least for me the understaning of II Peter 1:20 helped free me of completely buying into VPW's interpretations.
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Vertical Limit
Yeah! That 2 Peter 1:20 thing certainly worked to Wierwielle's advantage.
And thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Not trying to close it (like that works) but just because I don't comment on the comments doesn't mean I don't like 'em. You all knew that anyway.
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RottieGrrrl
The biggest thing I have learned is that I'm not going to always get what I want. PFAL indoctornated in me that all I had to do was believe God "get my believing UP there) speak in tongues and get mind pics of what I want and I'll get it.
It took me over 20 years to understand that sometimes the direction I'm pointing myself towards isn't always the direction that God is pointing me to.
I think many people were manipulated by "The Way" this way, or thinking that they had rotten believing when their hearts were telling them that He would work through a situation another way,which wasn't always proper protocal, according to the wayfers. Or hell, other peoples opinions period for that matter.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
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Tom
Yeah, Rottie, PFAL pretended to be more than it was or could be. People have said that the attitude of "I've got the answers!" that VP ridiculed in the class WAS HIS attitude for years, but, even though I've been away from TWI for eight years now (gosh that's not really very long compared to the 25 or so years I was in), I've come to see it in a bigger way.
"It's no disgrace to know, err, to not know [VP's Freudian slip, not mine - i.e, it's no disgrace to have all the answers - maybe he felt subconscious guilt for being a pompous a$$ fraud, even back then]. It's a disgrace to indicate that you know when you do not know [OMG, I have this whole freakin tape almost word for word still in my mind]. It's no disgrace to be stupid [ha, seems like a character trait of VP, Craig, & yes, Mike to call everyone who doesn't believe like they do stupid], it's a disgrace to stay stupid when the class on Power for Abundant Living is..."
(deep breath - deep sigh)
So, PFAL has all the answers to give you all the promises that are on the green card & more - all the answers to rescue you from your stupidity in any category so you don't have to be the stupid a$$ that you are. May God forgive us, we voluntarily subjected ourselves to this degrading abusive bull$hit.
So, here comes this kid - 14, maybe 13 years old, whatever. His parents are alcoholics maybe, abusive, divorced. The kid hasn't an example one on how to form a stable relationship with a friend, a lover, how to be a parent - nothing. He or she is a CHILD, maybe a young youth, maybe 40 years old, but doesn't know jack about how to live life. Tada! here comes PFAL to save the day. And this guy with a thin black tie, who smokes menthol shorties like he'll die if he doesn't do it everywhere all the time and has subservients wherever he goes trained to feed him Drambuie when no one is looking, who has a lifelong habit of abandoning his children to...while he... - what's the difference? This pathetic, abusive man teaches this poor kid who is looking for answers and deliverance from abuse that he is an a$$hole who can be smart if he learns PFAL - that all the answers are there. AND (here is the clincher) he will continue to be an a$$hole if he doesn't pick up on this opportunity. Only now he'll be a disgraced a$$hole because he could have gotten his answers in PFAL. Okay, just take the concept of responsibility for all ones actions being on the individaul and stick it someplace dark for a minute or two. Does this kid have any chance in hell of being able to deal with these issues responsibly that all his roll models have cratered to? No, he has no answers.
What a motivator! Talk about appealing to fear. VP did it better than anyone he talked about in American society.
This person doesn't have answers. He can't. He is not responsible. He has no guilt in this regard unless someone shows him answers and he refuses them.
Did VP have anything to offer this kid? Did PFAL? Did VP first partake of the fruit of the wisdom of PFAL and now enjoy a loving relationship with his wife? His sons? His daughters?
How about his disciple chosen to receive his mantle, Craig? How about his disciple, Mike?
Aw, that's okay VP, Craig, Mike, Donna, Rosalie, whoever abides under the mantle. It is no disgrace to not know.
Ah, yes, but it is a disgrace to indicate that you know when you do not know. PFAL can do no more for others than it did for you.
Jesus, on the other hand, can deliver to the uttermnost, those that come to him.
That realization did a lot to break the spell of PFAL for me.
Tom (I'm not going to go back & spellcheck - okay?)
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Outin88!
"Jesus, on the other hand, can deliver to the uttermnost, those that come to him.
That realization did a lot to break the spell of PFAL for me."
Amen Tom.
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Seth
Here is what I think of PFAL, in a nutshell.
It was VPW's "Ha, I told you so!" to his old teachers and church leaders.
It was VPW's excuse to drink and smoke and be un-faithful to his wife, to lie and cheat and steal from faithful followers; and still call him self Christian. Why? Because it's only your body that is sinning not your Spirit.
It was a waste of 36 hours of my life every time I took it. (More when I was on the class crew)
It was a source of pain and confusion for many years.
It is probly the best recording of mind-control and cult-indoctrination ever developed and it should be studied by universities around the world.
It was my introduction to Christian superstition.
Seth
"Is that a real poncho or a Sears poncho?"
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LG
I had never looked at this thread until today, when I saw this, posted August 1.
Wave back.I guess I’ll have to weigh in.
I was never under the spell of PFAL. I was under the spell of the people of TWI and the illusion of love I desperately wanted to believe was real. I never believed much of TWI’s spiel, but I tried to, because I would have happily believed a delusion if that would have made the illusion I chased real to me.
As for PFAL:
The very first thing that struck me was Wierwille’s claim that the Bible was either God’s Word from Genesis through Revelation, or it wasn’t God’s Word anywhere. I knew a little about how the Protestant canon came about, and I knew that wasn’t logical or necessarily true. The next thing I noticed was Wierwille using individual verses out of context to support points they didn’t support. I noticed a lot of other problems, as well, but I quickly learned to keep them to myself. (The “love” cooled quickly when I mentioned them to others.) All of that was the first time I took PFAL. As time went on, those things became more problematic for me, as did many other things. However, the illusion was more attractive than reality, so I continued to pursue it for years. Finally, I decided I’d had enough. I’ll take reality, with all its ugliness.
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Jbarrax
"I'll take reality with all its ugliness."
Well said Long Gone. Truth is neither pretty nor comfortable.
JerryB
MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!!
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BelieversTrumpet
You mean like when the Doctor was in Jabbapore on the train after all the great miracles and the Mayor came to see "the mawn of God in his car" to offer him the keys to the City?
:D-->
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oldiesman
Outin88,
Funny you bring that up because your current belief was VPW's belief when he wrote that on page 9 of Jesus Christ is not God in the introduction. I was surprised reading that, because before that, we were taught that the abundant life meant "life in all of its manifestations", physical, material, spiritual, etc. What a surprise to learn that Dr. was adding a wholly different twist to it. Today, I concur and believe what you believe and what VP wrote in JCING.
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oldiesman
Galen,
I'm with you, I like PFAL too and thought it was excellent. A few things now stick out like a sore thumb, such as the purported "law of believing" and "Christians Believe The Preposterous"; but other things so overwhelmingly made up for that: Jesus is Lord, Christ in You the Hope of Glory, Salvation by Grace, being sealed with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, etc. I'm very glad TWI (VPW and many others) were around to teach those things.
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valerie52
I realized PFAL and the way was ate up with the dumb *** when my ***-*** husband left me after emotional abuse of 3 years. I "beleived God" in all the ways I was taught and got married to Hasatan......
Believing does NOT equal receiving......
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Oakspear
PFAL was well designed to lead you down the garden path of blind obedience.
It was touted as "a class on keys", a way for you to be able to read and understand the bible without having to depend on what "Right Rev. so-and-so" said, or what was written in commentaries.
But it was, in reality, an introduction to taking what Wierwille said as gospel.
Oh, you didn't do that? You actually checked out those translations of Aramaic words and verified the translations according to usage? You found independent verification of his definitions of Greek words?
Wierwille does a good job in spots, especially early in the class, of letting the bible speak for itself. He points out differences between the clear reading of the bible and what tradition teaches. He starts off by documenting biblically most of what he says.
Little by little he starts moving away from that. While reading the King James, he continually tells us what the words really mean, and throws out definitions that occur nowhere else. Because he started out plainly reading what was written and taught us some pretty straightforward "keys", we swallowed what he taught without question.
Whether or not you still like PFAL, whether or not you saw any good in it, whether or not you thought it accomplished a godly purpose, the PFAL class was designed to put you under a "spell", to captivate you and cause you to accept without critical thinking.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Vertical Limit
Well said Oakspear.
I think there was some good bible taught in the class. And a lot of self-promotion and teachings that served the teacher rather than the Lord. And Yes it did cast a "spell" on many. When 1 thing is proved wrong in the class, other parts are on shakey ground also.
For me I had to take it apart in my mind then reboot in order to prove to myself what was the good I got from the class. It seems there was a few good things in it, in my opinion.
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