Well, for me it was a slow realization that what was taught didn't always work. Like the fear doctrine and the all believing equals receiving doctrines.
I will qualify the above statement by saying that I believe that beleiving Gods promises will equal recieving them.
But it's Gods power not our mind power of believing in our beleiving or fearing our fears that make things happen. IMHO!!!
I first started to hear that there was erronious doctrines through CES, then LMCI (Dale Sides) and through various believers.
After hearing their teachings I started checking in the Word and see that some of these things were so.
There are two very good threads he at GS cafe called PFAL review by Jerry Barrax and Actual errors of PFAL by Rafael Olmeda.
I highly recommend reading those threads, they offer some great insight into variuos errors in PFAL.
I learned that: the LAW OF BELIEVING doesn't work (anyway you slice it, it's still B.S.),
God doesn't give me revelation (still, small voice or big booming one, it DOESN'T happen, [my fault? dunno]), miraculous healings DON'T happen (at least not in my life or of those I know), Jesus doesn't walk with me and talk with me along life's narrow way ("Oh, yes He does! You're just not listening!" - Bull$hit), prophecy or interpretation of tongues is bogus, and finally (fer now) The Bible DOES have contradictions - and they can't be explained away with a little convoluted Bullingerian logic, hence it CANNOT be trusted -
Wait a minute, I've just discovered a tremendous truth from The Class! "If it's wrong anywhere, you can't trust it anywhere, so we might as well just chuck the whole thing!"
The summer before I left TWI, my best friend left. I was told I was not allowed to see her anymore and that I should work the "not unequally yoked stuff" from LCM's last Rock of Ages teachings on Living Sanctified. I did. I discovered LCM taught it incorrectly (in my opinion).
After I left TWI, I held on to most of the teachings for a while, still believed them. Then I started going to a Vineyard church and to an in-home Bible study group with them. Some of their doctrine directly contradicts what we were taught in TWI, yet I could see from the Bible how they reached their conclusions.
Then I started working the stuff on Tithing/Abundant Sharing. I discovered what we were taught on this subject was wrong as well.
It pretty much all unraveled at that point. I still thing there were some truths taught, but now my beliefs aren't based upon PFAL or any other single source.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
The Actual Errors thread can get a little trivial at times if you don't keep its purpose in mind. I figure if you can't admit that at least one of those errors is, in fact, an error, then you're just not being honest. Once you admit to yourself that an error is an error, the thread has lost its function. Move on to something more substantive.
Read thru your writings on the Blue Book. Good job. I enjoyed them both.
One thing I did not agree with is the part where you say that VPW equates the more abundant life with materialism. I didnt see that at all. It seems that you "read into" his statement. He very well could have meant it in a material way, but never made it clear. "I looked around me and saw..." It makes sense that this would indicate he was talking about material possesionsl, but not necessarily. Maybe he saw more fulfilled relationships, better family lives, more fulfilled lives. I think your assesment is probably true, but it is still an assumption on your part.
Not trying to defend VPW and not trying to discredit you in any way. Just a little constructive critique. And I emphasize the word "constructive". AS I said before, both articles were excellent.
My copy of the blue book bit the dust. Wish I still had it. I tried to order it from the Way Bookstore,but they would not sell it to me because I no longer stand with the Way.
That's pretty bad when a ministry refuses to sell a book that will contribute to one's spiritual growth simply because one no longer is involved in that ministry.
The blue book seems to put all the responsibility for God doing anything onto the person. The first 5 chapters anyway.
One thing that helped me was seeing how some of the other high control groups or cults operated. Patterns of how to control people began to be evident. Pfal promoted a lot of the thinking that kept us following Wierwielle and then Martindale.
Originally we left the way mostly because we saw that they were teaching that if you don't give 10% of your money to the way then God won't protect you. And if you didn't give more you wouldn't have any spiritual understanding. I don't know...It finally dawned on me that that was bullsh!t.
pfal itself and then all my years in.... hard for me to separate them now
thinking back to the class almost 30 years ago, one thing i should have realized..... hold all your question 'til the end of the class because it will probably get answered
by the end of the class i felt peer pressure to be so excited and happy that i didn't want to hurt feelings or step on toes by handing in questions
and then i guess i felt if i kept going, intermediate, advanced, way corps school of prophets, eventually i would get my answers anyway.....
it really got worse the further i went along but by then i was hooked for some reason
We were told and told the new students that each session of pfal builds on the previous one. Yep-you got that right. Thats why if a session was missed you had to retake the entire class from the beginning. Other wise your thinking would not be where it's supposed to be.
There are patterns in the class that got us to logically conclude that Wierwille was the man of god of the world and a bunch of other garbage.
Just because it makes sense or logical that don't mean it's right.
It's intersting to me that so many who sat through the class got different meanings from the Abundant Life as taught by VPW.
I was always under the impression it meant material abundance. Health and Wealth!
I also know others that interpreted Wierwilles definiation of the Abundant Life as I did, meaning material abundance.
I just thought it was interesting that the supposed MOG and "teacher" of Gods word as is "hadn't been know since the 1st Century" didn't make it that clear to his students on what exactly he meant!
Irregardless of what VPW meant, my current belief on what the Abundant LIfe Jesus came to bring is a lot of life, or eternal life.
If I said I have an abundance of Oranges you would most likely undertand that I have a lot of oranges. And thats how I see that passge of scripture as a lot of, or eternal life.
I was checking the archives and found a few threads that discuss the "Abundant Life", if anyone cares to check em out, here ya go....
"I was always under the impression it meant material abundance. Health and Wealth!"
Absotively. What's "Christians Should be Prosperous" talking about? Spiritual prosperity? I think not.
Even when great material abundance wasn't directly taught, it was certainly insinuated.
Herr Doktor with his shiney, new Harley, motorcoach, airplane, and all the freaking outlandish clothing the man wore. You think he emulated the life of humility and restraint? Please...
Then all the anecdotes of the guy who "believed" for this or that thing - house, car, tuxedo, whatever to be given to him or somehow become his property without actually working for it. And I specifically remember LoyBoy promoting PFAL by telling about the former grad who made himself a millionaire by "applying the principles" in "The Class".
Yeah, sure...
In retrospect it amazes me how childish the appeal for "The Class" actually was - "Wishing will make it so". I'm glad we finally grew up a little. Well some of us, anyway...
Yeah, my impression for as long as I can remember was that the "more abundant life" meant prosperity in every realm, including the material realm. Now I believe Jesus meant an abundant life in the spiritual realm.
Isnt it in Hebrews where it talks about believers going around in sheepskins and living in caves etc, of whom the world was not worthy? Sounds like they were great believers, but definitely not living in great material abundance.
Raf-
Your articles of the pros and cons of the blue book should be read by anyone who left twi and is still interested in the Word. Your writing is very balanced.
Putting pfal through a reality check was a big deal for my life, and so vital to being able to learn to walk with the Holy Spirit.
I was able to see that a walk with the lord did not require memorizing pfal and sending tithe to twi:
:)-->When I realized that other Christian groups were indeed Christian.
:)-->When I read other writers, such as BG Leonard, Norman Vincent Peale, JE Stiles, Billy Graham (and many more) whose writing pre-dates PFAL, and they had said those things which vpw took credit for bringing into the world.
:)-->When I found that the other people who had written the pfal material also had a Holy Spirit power which was lacking in pfal.
:)-->When I found that in mainstream Christianity living the Christian principles of love and kindness to your fellow man were hallmarks of Christianity -- rather than a big pontificating mouth with big words sinful lifestyle -- commonly called hypocricy.
:)-->When I found that Holy Spirit still loved me, even though i had been kicked out of twi.
:)-->Trancechat / WayDale / Greasespot Cafe have played a big part in my reality check.
(THANK YOU Paul Allen, Pawtucket, John Juedes et al.)
This is my favorite topic, but alas, I have no time this week. Suffice to say PFAL started to unravel for me when I tried to use it to confront someone about the "faith of Jesus Christ" doctrine. I checked PFAL as my source and in the process, found that it contradicted Hebrews chapter 11. I decided to take a closer look at it, and it went downhill from there.
By the way, there's an updated version of the PFAL Review, with a linked index, on my current homepage. The url is http://home.insightbb.com/~gbarraxjr. One of the great things about the PFAL Review is it was a collaborative effort. Many people contributed, including Outin88, Evan, Rafael, Orange Cat, steve Lortz, Sunlight8, and even a couple of Smikeolian detractors who set a great example of how limiting "Waybrain" can be.
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Well, for me it was a slow realization that what was taught didn't always work. Like the fear doctrine and the all believing equals receiving doctrines.
I will qualify the above statement by saying that I believe that beleiving Gods promises will equal recieving them.
But it's Gods power not our mind power of believing in our beleiving or fearing our fears that make things happen. IMHO!!!
I first started to hear that there was erronious doctrines through CES, then LMCI (Dale Sides) and through various believers.
After hearing their teachings I started checking in the Word and see that some of these things were so.
There are two very good threads he at GS cafe called PFAL review by Jerry Barrax and Actual errors of PFAL by Rafael Olmeda.
I highly recommend reading those threads, they offer some great insight into variuos errors in PFAL.
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mj412
Whe I realized God loved me in spite of all I learned in pfal.
It is exactly how you say men vying for power .
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George Aar
Let's see,.
I learned that: the LAW OF BELIEVING doesn't work (anyway you slice it, it's still B.S.),
God doesn't give me revelation (still, small voice or big booming one, it DOESN'T happen, [my fault? dunno]), miraculous healings DON'T happen (at least not in my life or of those I know), Jesus doesn't walk with me and talk with me along life's narrow way ("Oh, yes He does! You're just not listening!" - Bull$hit), prophecy or interpretation of tongues is bogus, and finally (fer now) The Bible DOES have contradictions - and they can't be explained away with a little convoluted Bullingerian logic, hence it CANNOT be trusted -
Wait a minute, I've just discovered a tremendous truth from The Class! "If it's wrong anywhere, you can't trust it anywhere, so we might as well just chuck the whole thing!"
Doktor was right all along! Why didn't I listen?
geo.
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Vertical Limit
When we first quit twi, I thought the problem was local leadership. Then I found waydale and a few other websites.
Learning of all the adultery and the "all the women of the kingdom belong to the king" statement was the first clue for me.
Yeah-I read all the threads about errors in the class and the books. The pfal review can still be found at;
http://ourworld.cs.com/PFALREVIEW/
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Abigail
It was a combination of things.
The summer before I left TWI, my best friend left. I was told I was not allowed to see her anymore and that I should work the "not unequally yoked stuff" from LCM's last Rock of Ages teachings on Living Sanctified. I did. I discovered LCM taught it incorrectly (in my opinion).
After I left TWI, I held on to most of the teachings for a while, still believed them. Then I started going to a Vineyard church and to an in-home Bible study group with them. Some of their doctrine directly contradicts what we were taught in TWI, yet I could see from the Bible how they reached their conclusions.
Then I started working the stuff on Tithing/Abundant Sharing. I discovered what we were taught on this subject was wrong as well.
It pretty much all unraveled at that point. I still thing there were some truths taught, but now my beliefs aren't based upon PFAL or any other single source.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Raf
The Actual Errors thread can get a little trivial at times if you don't keep its purpose in mind. I figure if you can't admit that at least one of those errors is, in fact, an error, then you're just not being honest. Once you admit to yourself that an error is an error, the thread has lost its function. Move on to something more substantive.
The "Official" Actual Errors list
10 things I liked about the Blue Book.
10 problems I had with the Blue Book.
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Outin88!
I almost forgot Steve Lortz's thread;
PFAL Errors, Even deeper Do-Do;
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=1526090432
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chwester
Raf-
Read thru your writings on the Blue Book. Good job. I enjoyed them both.
One thing I did not agree with is the part where you say that VPW equates the more abundant life with materialism. I didnt see that at all. It seems that you "read into" his statement. He very well could have meant it in a material way, but never made it clear. "I looked around me and saw..." It makes sense that this would indicate he was talking about material possesionsl, but not necessarily. Maybe he saw more fulfilled relationships, better family lives, more fulfilled lives. I think your assesment is probably true, but it is still an assumption on your part.
Not trying to defend VPW and not trying to discredit you in any way. Just a little constructive critique. And I emphasize the word "constructive". AS I said before, both articles were excellent.
www.pullingdownstrongholds.com
www.anncoulter.org
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Raf
Wow. Thanks for the compliment.
And good point about "abundant life."
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chwester
My copy of the blue book bit the dust. Wish I still had it. I tried to order it from the Way Bookstore,but they would not sell it to me because I no longer stand with the Way.
That's pretty bad when a ministry refuses to sell a book that will contribute to one's spiritual growth simply because one no longer is involved in that ministry.
www.pullingdownstrongholds.com
www.anncoulter.org
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excathedra
i think i have a blue book around here and if i find it you can have it
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Lifted Up
Chwester reponded:
I remember that when discussing "But my God shall supply all your need" in PFAL, he noted "it didn't say greed".
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Raf
I remember that too.
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Vertical Limit
The blue book seems to put all the responsibility for God doing anything onto the person. The first 5 chapters anyway.
One thing that helped me was seeing how some of the other high control groups or cults operated. Patterns of how to control people began to be evident. Pfal promoted a lot of the thinking that kept us following Wierwielle and then Martindale.
Originally we left the way mostly because we saw that they were teaching that if you don't give 10% of your money to the way then God won't protect you. And if you didn't give more you wouldn't have any spiritual understanding. I don't know...It finally dawned on me that that was bullsh!t.
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excathedra
vertical, hi.
pfal itself and then all my years in.... hard for me to separate them now
thinking back to the class almost 30 years ago, one thing i should have realized..... hold all your question 'til the end of the class because it will probably get answered
by the end of the class i felt peer pressure to be so excited and happy that i didn't want to hurt feelings or step on toes by handing in questions
and then i guess i felt if i kept going, intermediate, advanced, way corps school of prophets, eventually i would get my answers anyway.....
it really got worse the further i went along but by then i was hooked for some reason
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Vertical Limit
hey ex!
Yeah... hooked for some reason.
Finding the reasons slowly.
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excathedra
make sure you let me know when you do
;)-->
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Vertical Limit
We were told and told the new students that each session of pfal builds on the previous one. Yep-you got that right. Thats why if a session was missed you had to retake the entire class from the beginning. Other wise your thinking would not be where it's supposed to be.
There are patterns in the class that got us to logically conclude that Wierwille was the man of god of the world and a bunch of other garbage.
Just because it makes sense or logical that don't mean it's right.
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Outin88!
It's intersting to me that so many who sat through the class got different meanings from the Abundant Life as taught by VPW.
I was always under the impression it meant material abundance. Health and Wealth!
I also know others that interpreted Wierwilles definiation of the Abundant Life as I did, meaning material abundance.
I just thought it was interesting that the supposed MOG and "teacher" of Gods word as is "hadn't been know since the 1st Century" didn't make it that clear to his students on what exactly he meant!
Irregardless of what VPW meant, my current belief on what the Abundant LIfe Jesus came to bring is a lot of life, or eternal life.
If I said I have an abundance of Oranges you would most likely undertand that I have a lot of oranges. And thats how I see that passge of scripture as a lot of, or eternal life.
I was checking the archives and found a few threads that discuss the "Abundant Life", if anyone cares to check em out, here ya go....
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=9586067761
http://www.gscafe.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc...42&m=7166029622
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George Aar
Outin88,
"I was always under the impression it meant material abundance. Health and Wealth!"
Absotively. What's "Christians Should be Prosperous" talking about? Spiritual prosperity? I think not.
Even when great material abundance wasn't directly taught, it was certainly insinuated.
Herr Doktor with his shiney, new Harley, motorcoach, airplane, and all the freaking outlandish clothing the man wore. You think he emulated the life of humility and restraint? Please...
Then all the anecdotes of the guy who "believed" for this or that thing - house, car, tuxedo, whatever to be given to him or somehow become his property without actually working for it. And I specifically remember LoyBoy promoting PFAL by telling about the former grad who made himself a millionaire by "applying the principles" in "The Class".
Yeah, sure...
In retrospect it amazes me how childish the appeal for "The Class" actually was - "Wishing will make it so". I'm glad we finally grew up a little. Well some of us, anyway...
geo.
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lindyhopper
totally true, geo.
It don't mean a thing, all you gotta do is swing.
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chwester
Yeah, my impression for as long as I can remember was that the "more abundant life" meant prosperity in every realm, including the material realm. Now I believe Jesus meant an abundant life in the spiritual realm.
Isnt it in Hebrews where it talks about believers going around in sheepskins and living in caves etc, of whom the world was not worthy? Sounds like they were great believers, but definitely not living in great material abundance.
Raf-
Your articles of the pros and cons of the blue book should be read by anyone who left twi and is still interested in the Word. Your writing is very balanced.
www.pullingdownstrongholds.com
www.anncoulter.org
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Kit Sober
Putting pfal through a reality check was a big deal for my life, and so vital to being able to learn to walk with the Holy Spirit.
I was able to see that a walk with the lord did not require memorizing pfal and sending tithe to twi:
(THANK YOU Paul Allen, Pawtucket, John Juedes et al.)
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Jbarrax
This is my favorite topic, but alas, I have no time this week. Suffice to say PFAL started to unravel for me when I tried to use it to confront someone about the "faith of Jesus Christ" doctrine. I checked PFAL as my source and in the process, found that it contradicted Hebrews chapter 11. I decided to take a closer look at it, and it went downhill from there.
By the way, there's an updated version of the PFAL Review, with a linked index, on my current homepage. The url is http://home.insightbb.com/~gbarraxjr. One of the great things about the PFAL Review is it was a collaborative effort. Many people contributed, including Outin88, Evan, Rafael, Orange Cat, steve Lortz, Sunlight8, and even a couple of Smikeolian detractors who set a great example of how limiting "Waybrain" can be.
Peace
JerryB
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