I am very thankful for PFAL and a little thankful for TWI.
I dont care where VPW got his information. Good information is still good information.
I fullwell realize that as a man, he had issues and he hurt people. He also helped thousands.
Studying the Bible is good (at least in my 'book'). It certainly makes more sense than did anything that I had learned while in the Baptist church or the Methodist. TWI did not have the corner on the market for abusing people. In terms of abusing people, TWI is a fledgling.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
quote:. In terms of abusing people, TWI is a fledgling.
oh that's nice, galen. do you think jesus christ would agree ? i don't know, i think there's something about him feeling strongly about one little lamb
Hmmm...I guess the challenge is to see how many different ways we can analogize our twi experience effectively.
Wierwille was a grifter and a circus carney rolled into one, his "class" consisted of plagiarized work and sophmoric "research" and perpetrated massive and manipulative biblical error.
Perhaps more than anything else, it was the way twi "formatted" this class. No questions allowed, strict 10 minute breaks, 3 hour sessions with a barrage of "grads" "undersheparding" the new recruits. The isolation from their friends and family began early...
This "class" that so many of you think is so wonderful was the "entry point" of an indoctrination process. This is the place where you turned in your individuality for a nametag. This is where "waybrain" began to infest your mind...like maggotts on spoiled meat.
If you "found Christ" through that "class"...you did it in SPITE of pfal not because of it.
quote:i don't know, i think there's something about him feeling strongly about one little lamb
So true.
Galen, TWI may have been a fledgling at abuse. My wife says we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us. (she's a very forgiving woman) I say, we left before I had a chance to be really mean to them. But that's just me. It was better to walk away.
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
"galen. do you think jesus christ would agree ? i don't know, i think there's something about him feeling strongly about one little lamb"
I am sure that our Lord and Savior cares deeply about each and every one of us.
I also think that in a greater scope of things, there have been far worse violators and miscredants that Jesus also cared for.
Cocks-
"Galen, TWI may have been a fledgling at abuse. My wife says we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us. (she's a very forgiving woman) I say, we left before I had a chance to be really mean to them. But that's just me. It was better to walk away."
And may our Heavenly Father bless you for that, perhaps you were able to get the most out of TWI from a shorter exposure to them, whereas others needed more time.
To is truly a shame that so many got hurt. I am sorry.
It would be nice if a loving and godly organization had lured us, without any men of evil intent. But alas, heaven has not yet arrived.
There really are people out there, who practice what they preach. Seems to me, their words should carry more weight than someone who left a wake of pain, hurt, and destruction.
It's really not that hard to get up in front of a crowd, or a video camera and spout off a bunch of "principles." :)-->
"Galen, TWI may have been a fledgling at abuse. My wife says we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us. (she's a very forgiving woman) I say, we left before I had a chance to be really mean to them. But that's just me. It was better to walk away."
My new login name!
I hear ya. He might have been getting tired of kicking my butt, so He just gave it one last good one. :)-->
To be perfectly honest what began my planned exit was mistreatment of my wife - a deliberate, prideful and malicious attempt to belittle and hurt her. And she was hurt by the incident, face to face with people we once considered friends - "leaders" in the Way. You could say I got a little peeved. Words were exchanged. And that was that. It was the last time we ever went to New Knoxville.
After that I started a full time job with a new company, worked my *** off to get a promotion and in 3 months did, leading to a move. The first step out. We started over in a new community with a twig and I began to decompress my way out of the Way. My wife forgave. I did too, but committed to working my way out of mental and spiritual dependency on the Way for both of us. About 3 years later POP hit the ministry, but it was like a flat tire finally peeling off it's hub. It only showed openly, finally, how destitute the Way was. Between Geer and the Trustees, they all got what they earned. God does make a way when there seems to be no way. They had each other for breakfast.
***Edited to keep it clean*** :D-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
[This message was edited by socks on February 26, 2004 at 1:39.]
HELO IMF777 I do not known your background with the ministry, but for myself I know that the CLASS saved my life, and I know it did the same for others, as for myself it was the plain truth that was taught that kept me around the years that I did stay, far as V.P, I believe that he did the best he had available to him, he also said on several occasions that with more research Pass teachings could be changed, also far as part of the foundation class being Vauge, these truths or expound upon in the advanced class, by the way when I speak of the CLASS I am referring to classes before Craig's classes. But nevertheless to each his own, although after having been taught certain things I would say it's pretty evident that the Bible definitely backs up negative and positive believing
I know that you were hurt, and I know that many others were hurt as well. I do not mean to negate your hurt, or in anyway say anything negative about it. I fully realize that for many people their hurt is very real.
I am simply an outsider in that context. I was only in TWI from 1979 - 1997, and I had very limited exposure to 'leadership'. The few times that I was exposed to Limb Coordinators, generally I found them to be egotistical, boot-licking, narrow-minded idiots.
I truly pray that some day those who expereinced so much hurt will be able to heal.
From my position I have also seen great damage done to the christian community in other churches as well, TWI has certainly not been unique, nor the only example of it.
I (and well as many others) did however find many of the things taught within PFAL, to be helpfull.
Can a priest accidentaly teach truth while he is torturing a faithful beleiver during the inquisition? Perhaps, I dont know.
To my direct personal experience the only real mean nasty evil behavior that I was a victim of was done by Corpse-nazis. People obviously drawn to power, and without any real 'heart' for people or God's Word.
"i just can't figure how he could be a godly loving person but this is due to my time spent with him and his sharing of his "logic" "Love" and all that"
There are things in life for which I have no answer, I am sorry.
I always (well, most of the time) like reading you... there were good and bad everywhere... as I sit here looking through the rear view mirror of life, hearing about the "corpse-nazis" I can't help but wonder, who taught them to be that way? who were they trying to emulate? who did they want to impress?
know what I mean?
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
"hey there Galen... I always (well, most of the time) like reading you... there were good and bad everywhere... as I sit here looking through the rear view mirror of life, hearing about the "corpse-nazis" I can't help but wonder, who taught them to be that way? who were they trying to emulate? who did they want to impress? know what I mean?"
I certainly do.
Were they sitting around the feet of their master? absorbing everything they saw? mimicing every move?
Did VPW act at every moment the way that so many corpse-nazis did when they were out on the field among us pessants?
I dont know. Please dont take this offensively. I never met VPW, I dont know how he acted day in and day out.
I was just a Twig Coordinator. If he was that abuse of everyone he met and came into contact with, I would have thought that he would never have been able to pastor a congregation in VanWert.
But I dont know. Obviously he abused some. (I am not making any efforts here to say he did not, nor to discredit his victims, though my comments are often taken as insulting to his victims.)
Jumping to conclusions, screaming in the faces of their followers, declaring that this 10-year beleiver is a 'seed-boy', or that 20-year beleiver possessed. Demanding every minute of your day for the ministry. . . . . Was that VPW's presentation of himself? I dont know.
I heard him on audio cassettes of PFAL for years, saw him on video at 'renewed mind' classes, 'intermediate' classes and all the various video classes. I saw him on video when I went through the advanced class. VPW did not present himself in such a manner in those videos. Which I would have to assume is where most of us got their impression of the man and what he was like. Not exactly a duplicate of what we saw in the behavior of many corpse-nazis, soon after VPW died.
I dont know, but I think they got acting that way from LCM.
I have to admit Galen, I keyed in on the same phrase that rascal did:
quote:If he was that abuse of everyone he met and came into contact with, I would have thought that he would never have been able to pastor a congregation in VanWert.
and had the same thoughts in response...
I mentioned on another thread about the Public/Published "Dr" and the Private "Dr"... and I'm fully aware that was your exposure, there was a big difference... most of the time.
Granted, LCM took it to a new level, but it all had the same origin...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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oldiesman
Dr. Wierwille was completely faithful in teaching the biblical truths on how folks are reconciled to God.
Thank goodness we weren't a group something like the moonies, who taught that Sun Young Moon was the Second Coming...
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Bluzeman
George, I'm highly offended by your last post!
We all KNOW Bigfoot is real!
:D-->
Rick
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Galen
I am very thankful for PFAL and a little thankful for TWI.
I dont care where VPW got his information. Good information is still good information.
I fullwell realize that as a man, he had issues and he hurt people. He also helped thousands.
Studying the Bible is good (at least in my 'book'). It certainly makes more sense than did anything that I had learned while in the Baptist church or the Methodist. TWI did not have the corner on the market for abusing people. In terms of abusing people, TWI is a fledgling.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
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excathedra
?
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Groucho
Hmmm...I guess the challenge is to see how many different ways we can analogize our twi experience effectively.
Wierwille was a grifter and a circus carney rolled into one, his "class" consisted of plagiarized work and sophmoric "research" and perpetrated massive and manipulative biblical error.
Perhaps more than anything else, it was the way twi "formatted" this class. No questions allowed, strict 10 minute breaks, 3 hour sessions with a barrage of "grads" "undersheparding" the new recruits. The isolation from their friends and family began early...
This "class" that so many of you think is so wonderful was the "entry point" of an indoctrination process. This is the place where you turned in your individuality for a nametag. This is where "waybrain" began to infest your mind...like maggotts on spoiled meat.
If you "found Christ" through that "class"...you did it in SPITE of pfal not because of it.
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socks
So true.
Galen, TWI may have been a fledgling at abuse. My wife says we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us. (she's a very forgiving woman) I say, we left before I had a chance to be really mean to them. But that's just me. It was better to walk away.
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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excathedra
i think it's always better to walk away before you become what hurts you
?
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Golfie
quote:i don't know, i think there's something about him feeling strongly about one little lamb
------------------------------------------------------------
Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
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wyteduv58
Golfie, Did they bury VP in the sea? thousands have inquiring minds want to know. lol
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... too dumb to post pics http://gscafe.com/groupee/forums?s=9716057...a&ul=4846073735
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Galen
excathedra:
"galen. do you think jesus christ would agree ? i don't know, i think there's something about him feeling strongly about one little lamb"
I am sure that our Lord and Savior cares deeply about each and every one of us.
I also think that in a greater scope of things, there have been far worse violators and miscredants that Jesus also cared for.
Cocks-
"Galen, TWI may have been a fledgling at abuse. My wife says we left before they had a chance to be really mean to us. (she's a very forgiving woman) I say, we left before I had a chance to be really mean to them. But that's just me. It was better to walk away."
And may our Heavenly Father bless you for that, perhaps you were able to get the most out of TWI from a shorter exposure to them, whereas others needed more time.
To is truly a shame that so many got hurt. I am sorry.
It would be nice if a loving and godly organization had lured us, without any men of evil intent. But alas, heaven has not yet arrived.
Bless you
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excathedra
galen, i love you and how you always answer people
you found pfal better than methodist or baptist i think you said
i have a hard time with how deeply hurt i was by the person who taught pfal
i just can't figure how he could be a godly loving person but this is due to my time spent with him and his sharing of his "logic" "Love" and all that
?
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ex10
There really are people out there, who practice what they preach. Seems to me, their words should carry more weight than someone who left a wake of pain, hurt, and destruction.
It's really not that hard to get up in front of a crowd, or a video camera and spout off a bunch of "principles."
:)-->
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socks
My new login name!
I hear ya. He might have been getting tired of kicking my butt, so He just gave it one last good one.
:)-->
To be perfectly honest what began my planned exit was mistreatment of my wife - a deliberate, prideful and malicious attempt to belittle and hurt her. And she was hurt by the incident, face to face with people we once considered friends - "leaders" in the Way. You could say I got a little peeved. Words were exchanged. And that was that. It was the last time we ever went to New Knoxville.
After that I started a full time job with a new company, worked my *** off to get a promotion and in 3 months did, leading to a move. The first step out. We started over in a new community with a twig and I began to decompress my way out of the Way. My wife forgave. I did too, but committed to working my way out of mental and spiritual dependency on the Way for both of us. About 3 years later POP hit the ministry, but it was like a flat tire finally peeling off it's hub. It only showed openly, finally, how destitute the Way was. Between Geer and the Trustees, they all got what they earned. God does make a way when there seems to be no way. They had each other for breakfast.
***Edited to keep it clean***
:D-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
[This message was edited by socks on February 26, 2004 at 1:39.]
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Tom Strange
socks mah boy... it's always such a pleasure to read you... I'm thinking next time I'm in the bay area maybe I'll buy you a beer or two...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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socks
Well, thanks Tom, likewise. And that would be nice.
The rusted chains of prison moons
Are shattered by the sun.
I walk a road, horizons change
The tournament's begun.
The purple piper plays his tune,
The choir softly sing;
Three lullabies in an ancient tongue,
For the court of the crimson king.
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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Tom Strange
Now you're talkin' Socks!
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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greg
HELO IMF777 I do not known your background with the ministry, but for myself I know that the CLASS saved my life, and I know it did the same for others, as for myself it was the plain truth that was taught that kept me around the years that I did stay, far as V.P, I believe that he did the best he had available to him, he also said on several occasions that with more research Pass teachings could be changed, also far as part of the foundation class being Vauge, these truths or expound upon in the advanced class, by the way when I speak of the CLASS I am referring to classes before Craig's classes. But nevertheless to each his own, although after having been taught certain things I would say it's pretty evident that the Bible definitely backs up negative and positive believing
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Galen
socks:
I apologize I sometimes type without looking, I did not mean for that to happen.
Please dont take insult, I did not intend to imply anything, nor to say 'that'.
Ooops.
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Tom Strange
hmmmm.... freudian slip perhaps?
:D-->
just kiddin' guys!
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Galen
excathedra:
I know that you were hurt, and I know that many others were hurt as well. I do not mean to negate your hurt, or in anyway say anything negative about it. I fully realize that for many people their hurt is very real.
I am simply an outsider in that context. I was only in TWI from 1979 - 1997, and I had very limited exposure to 'leadership'. The few times that I was exposed to Limb Coordinators, generally I found them to be egotistical, boot-licking, narrow-minded idiots.
I truly pray that some day those who expereinced so much hurt will be able to heal.
From my position I have also seen great damage done to the christian community in other churches as well, TWI has certainly not been unique, nor the only example of it.
I (and well as many others) did however find many of the things taught within PFAL, to be helpfull.
Can a priest accidentaly teach truth while he is torturing a faithful beleiver during the inquisition? Perhaps, I dont know.
To my direct personal experience the only real mean nasty evil behavior that I was a victim of was done by Corpse-nazis. People obviously drawn to power, and without any real 'heart' for people or God's Word.
"i just can't figure how he could be a godly loving person but this is due to my time spent with him and his sharing of his "logic" "Love" and all that"
There are things in life for which I have no answer, I am sorry.
My prayers this evening will be for you.
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Tom Strange
hey there Galen...
I always (well, most of the time) like reading you... there were good and bad everywhere... as I sit here looking through the rear view mirror of life, hearing about the "corpse-nazis" I can't help but wonder, who taught them to be that way? who were they trying to emulate? who did they want to impress?
know what I mean?
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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Galen
Tom Strange:
"hey there Galen... I always (well, most of the time) like reading you... there were good and bad everywhere... as I sit here looking through the rear view mirror of life, hearing about the "corpse-nazis" I can't help but wonder, who taught them to be that way? who were they trying to emulate? who did they want to impress? know what I mean?"
I certainly do.
Were they sitting around the feet of their master? absorbing everything they saw? mimicing every move?
Did VPW act at every moment the way that so many corpse-nazis did when they were out on the field among us pessants?
I dont know. Please dont take this offensively. I never met VPW, I dont know how he acted day in and day out.
I was just a Twig Coordinator. If he was that abuse of everyone he met and came into contact with, I would have thought that he would never have been able to pastor a congregation in VanWert.
But I dont know. Obviously he abused some. (I am not making any efforts here to say he did not, nor to discredit his victims, though my comments are often taken as insulting to his victims.)
Jumping to conclusions, screaming in the faces of their followers, declaring that this 10-year beleiver is a 'seed-boy', or that 20-year beleiver possessed. Demanding every minute of your day for the ministry. . . . . Was that VPW's presentation of himself? I dont know.
I heard him on audio cassettes of PFAL for years, saw him on video at 'renewed mind' classes, 'intermediate' classes and all the various video classes. I saw him on video when I went through the advanced class. VPW did not present himself in such a manner in those videos. Which I would have to assume is where most of us got their impression of the man and what he was like. Not exactly a duplicate of what we saw in the behavior of many corpse-nazis, soon after VPW died.
I dont know, but I think they got acting that way from LCM.
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rascal
Ummm wouldn`t be able to pastor a congregation?? Galen..He wasn`t...he was fired.... Guess why??
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Tom Strange
I have to admit Galen, I keyed in on the same phrase that rascal did:
and had the same thoughts in response...I mentioned on another thread about the Public/Published "Dr" and the Private "Dr"... and I'm fully aware that was your exposure, there was a big difference... most of the time.
Granted, LCM took it to a new level, but it all had the same origin...
I'm on the outside, looking inside, what do I see? Much confusion, disillusion, all around me.
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