The verses are handled in Jesus Christ Our Passover, which claims verses 52 and 53 are interpolations. A couple of manuscripts omit them, and its a pretty significant event not to be mentioned ever again by the other gospel writers or Acts.
On the other hand, none of the other gospel writers or Acts ever mentions Lazarus, so who's to say?
This question was answered at 5:00 pm today in the parking lot where I work. The dead rose up from their cubicles and came streaming out, suddenly revitalized by the coming weekend! I saw it with my own eyes.
I was standing all alone against the world outside. You were searching for a place to hide....
Now I've found you, there's no more emptiness inside. When we're hungry love will keep us alive.
But it makes more sense to me than the "soul sleep" theory taught by VPW.
Regarding Matthew, even if true, it was only a temporary arrnagement in that presumeably they would have died again as would Lazarus, or anybody else the Bible records as having been raised from the dead with the single exception of Jesus.
18...God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (PLEASE READ vs 23 AGAIN BECAUSE TWI MADE US AFRAID TO WORSHIP (HONOR) JESUS TOO MUCH)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(I THINK THAT *IF* THESE DEAD WERE RAISED, THEN THEY WERE LIKE LAZURUS, NOT ETERNAL LIFE WITH AN INCORRUPTABLE BODY, BUT DIED AGAIN LATER.)
[This message was edited by Golfie on March 07, 2004 at 19:42.]
All around Jerusalem there are so many hills covered with old graves, I had thought that possibly during an earth quake say a dozen graves were un-earthed such that those bodies slid out, and down a hill side (possibly tumbling in the process) and a crowd of people were there frightened by the earthquake and doubly frightened at the sight of those bodies sliding and tumbling down the slope.
I could see that stories that would have circulated.
If this was the same quake that damaged the temple curtain, I could see accounting it to Phenominon.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
If Matt.27:52-53 is suspected to be an interpolation, then the question must at least be raised: why was it added?
What compelled the editors to insert this material here?
To specifically oppose the ideas relating to the doctrinal position of death as set forth in "Are the Dead Alive Now"? - that doesn't seem very likely or convincing.
Nor do I find convincing the theory of this pertaining to bodies rolling out the graves due to an earthquake, which rather are described as "rising" and "going out of the tombs" and "entering into the holy city".
This question was answered in GREAT detail by Daniel McConaughy in a Way Magazine GMIR article titled “Early Patristic Evidence for the Forgery of Matthew 27:52b and 53” in the May/June 1982 issue.
just musing here: One of the best ways to deprogram oneself is to learn to enjoy imagination - one's own and others. Your "correct" doctrine and the "Word's integrity" don't need no stinking help from nobody.
You got a problem with bodies rising up and entering the city? I think it’s great! (“gasp!”).
Yea, and I think saints in perfect form after a century or two of noncorruption is great too! (enjoying imagining discomforted fundamentalists, so keeps going, wickedly).
Yea, and I think Mel’s drop of water belongs in the Word of God too!
- right next to Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail!”
NOW I’ve gone too far? If you think so, YOU’RE RACIST! (just kidding)
(done with fundy baiting for tonight)
Don't take yourself and your God so seriously, remember this is the Bible that has Rachel bleeding on her dad's Gumby collection. This is one very funny book (though Psalms make me cry).
Juan, don't post this.. people without imagination are very sensitive. You will lose credibility. You come across as condescending and patronizing.
"Oh come on, the girls just wanna have fun."
No, you can't "bait" people regarding their religious beliefs.
But surely they can enjoy a bit of a laugh at their own expense? I promise they can make fun of me for something. How about: for reading the Bible every day without believing that it all "fits together" so nicely? You know what it is? It's Mike. He drives me crazy. I don't read his stuff..but just knowing he's out there, and he's serious. That's scary to me.
Well now, I think the two of you should sit down and have some Earl Gray.
No! I promise I'll be good!
Are the Dead Alive Now? (in case you forgot the opening of this post, I am here coming back to the topic again). Well, I do think of Mom everyday. Will I see her again? I'll leave that up to the Boss -but I DO want to see that twelve-fruited tree (Rev. 22:2). Don't tell me THAT is just a figure of speech. It's almost the only verse in the Bible I take literally. Does it have watermelons and pineapples? Or just a bunch of orientalisamish fruits that I’ve never heard of or, at least, have never bought in the produce section?
Lots of things to understand here. Do I? I don't know.
Gen 2:17 Eat of the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and you surely die.
From that point on physical death as well as spiritual for all until the accomplisments of Jesus Christ, but then "all?" taken up in the 1. gathering and 2. resurrected for the day of judgment, two events. I Thess 4:13-18 and John 5:28,29
Is it the accomplishment that Jesus Christ did, Romans 5 that allowed God who is LIFE (Old Testatment) to transfer LIFE, the authority of, to Jesus Christ (New Testament), John 5:26, thus allowing Jesus Christ to gather I Thess 4:13-18 and resurrect John 5: 28,29 all.
Is therefore the last enemy to be destroyed, death Rev 21:4 and what relationship does that have to do with the "second" death Rev 20:6,14 or after death one and two is there NO more death whether one or two.
If death is a bad thing and it separated us from God and it took the accomplishments of Jesus Christ to overcome. Then would it be death without the gathering and the resurrection that would re-unite people with God?
Oh Well, time to eat Sunday brunch. Comfort Food!!!!
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Raf
The verses are handled in Jesus Christ Our Passover, which claims verses 52 and 53 are interpolations. A couple of manuscripts omit them, and its a pretty significant event not to be mentioned ever again by the other gospel writers or Acts.
On the other hand, none of the other gospel writers or Acts ever mentions Lazarus, so who's to say?
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johniam
Those verses remind me of the video for "Thriller".
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templelady
Spirit never dies--It is the part that belongs to GOD
Flesh and BOne on the other hand returns to dust.
When you die your spirit returns to the spritual realm where it stays with all the other Spirits
WHen Christ Died He made it possible for us to be reunited with our Flesh and Blood bodies
When CHrist DIed on the Cross the Spirits of the dead were released
When Christ returns we will be rejoined, spirit an body to be judged.
After the judgement we will either have Eternal Life with jesus Christ and GOd
or we won't
MO
(who Used to be Maure)
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chwester
I dont believe those verses for a second. Sounds like some Catholic B.S.
They completely contradict ICor.15 and IThessalonians.
Proud to be an American
www.northpoint.org
www.anncoulter.org
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Oakspear
Right, and there's no other places where the bible contradicts itself
It doesn't matter if we turn to dust...guess I'll see you dancin' in the ruins tonight
Oakspear
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socks
This question was answered at 5:00 pm today in the parking lot where I work. The dead rose up from their cubicles and came streaming out, suddenly revitalized by the coming weekend! I saw it with my own eyes.
I was standing all alone against the world outside. You were searching for a place to hide....
Now I've found you, there's no more emptiness inside. When we're hungry love will keep us alive.
The Eagles
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WordWolf
We've discussed this before at the GSC.
Having weighed the evidence, I think the bulk of it supports this being a
deliberate addition, added "with the best of intentions".
Contact me if you want me to explain my conclusions. I really don't want to
get into another running debate about it.....
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The Skeptical Texan
Socks,
LOL
SkepTex
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Trefor Heywood
Temple Lady:
What you say is straight from the Book of Mormon
But it makes more sense to me than the "soul sleep" theory taught by VPW.
Regarding Matthew, even if true, it was only a temporary arrnagement in that presumeably they would have died again as would Lazarus, or anybody else the Bible records as having been raised from the dead with the single exception of Jesus.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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Golfie
Could it be what Jesus referred to in John 5:25?
18...God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (PLEASE READ vs 23 AGAIN BECAUSE TWI MADE US AFRAID TO WORSHIP (HONOR) JESUS TOO MUCH)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(I THINK THAT *IF* THESE DEAD WERE RAISED, THEN THEY WERE LIKE LAZURUS, NOT ETERNAL LIFE WITH AN INCORRUPTABLE BODY, BUT DIED AGAIN LATER.)
[This message was edited by Golfie on March 07, 2004 at 19:42.]
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
hey, i'm just still trying to walk on the water
and i will attempt such a feat all the days of my life
afterall, i am only 7/10th's a mile from the oceans edge
the surfers always have the best results
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JustThinking
Golfie,
I'm supposed to honor my father and mother too. I wouldn't put them on the same level as God or pray to them.
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Juan Cruz
Reality check time:
Doesn't humilty force us all to step back a second and admit that we haven't got a clue!?!
We might as well live as though we do (live forever) -you know courageously giving our hearts and all, and not being afraid to die.
AND as though we don't. "You only live once.
Go for the gusto."
So, I'm living as though I will
and I won't
I keep this schitzoid mindset to myself so nobody knows (until now, that is)
What were we talking about? Are they alive now?
Why does it matter? - oh, that's right, the inegrity of the Word. Is it so fragile it needs constant shoring up?
Well, since that issue no longer occupies my mind, I guess I really, really don't care about the health of the dead.
I do think that every psychic that has ever lived is a fraud.
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Juan Cruz
Can I reject a verse or two from Romans 1? They sound like Baptist B.S. to me.
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Trefor Heywood
I am starting to think that the question is a bit of a misnomer.
The dead are by definition, dead in the physical sense.
The question is whether or not they are conscious spiritual entities at this time or not.
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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metastic&ocular
"are the dead alive now?
is that not a question that answers itself?
dead is dead.
alive is alive.
it doesnt get any plainer than that.
a thing of beauty
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/vp_DEATH.htm
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Juan Cruz
Trefor,
Of course you're right but "Are The Dead Conscious Spiritual Entities At This Time?" would not look as good on the dust jacket.
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Nottawayfer
ROFLMAO!!
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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Galen
All around Jerusalem there are so many hills covered with old graves, I had thought that possibly during an earth quake say a dozen graves were un-earthed such that those bodies slid out, and down a hill side (possibly tumbling in the process) and a crowd of people were there frightened by the earthquake and doubly frightened at the sight of those bodies sliding and tumbling down the slope.
I could see that stories that would have circulated.
If this was the same quake that damaged the temple curtain, I could see accounting it to Phenominon.
Bless you, May our Heavenly Father bless you in everyway, in the wonderful name of His son and our brother Jesus.
Galen
ET1 SS - USN Retired,
Pilgrim of the Ancient Arabic Order Nobles of the mystic shrine.
and
'University of Life' Alumni
"I live in the spirit of prayer. I pray as I walk, when I lie down, and when I rise. And the answers are always coming. Tens of thousands of times have my prayers been answered. When once I am persuaded that a thing is right, I go on praying for it. the great point is never to give up till the answer comes. The great fault of the children of God is, they do not continue in prayer, they do not persevere. If they desire anything for God's glory, they should pray until they get it." - George Mueller
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TheInvisibleDan
If Matt.27:52-53 is suspected to be an interpolation, then the question must at least be raised: why was it added?
What compelled the editors to insert this material here?
To specifically oppose the ideas relating to the doctrinal position of death as set forth in "Are the Dead Alive Now"? - that doesn't seem very likely or convincing.
Nor do I find convincing the theory of this pertaining to bodies rolling out the graves due to an earthquake, which rather are described as "rising" and "going out of the tombs" and "entering into the holy city".
Seems a lot of activity for rotten corpses.
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Shellon
Seems to me, like twi, all this doesn't answer the questions either.
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Mike
This question was answered in GREAT detail by Daniel McConaughy in a Way Magazine GMIR article titled “Early Patristic Evidence for the Forgery of Matthew 27:52b and 53” in the May/June 1982 issue.
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Juan Cruz
As much as I hate to help anyone read TWI hate-laced literature, here are lengthy excerpts from that article http://www.geocities.com/fdocc3/mc.htm
just musing here: One of the best ways to deprogram oneself is to learn to enjoy imagination - one's own and others. Your "correct" doctrine and the "Word's integrity" don't need no stinking help from nobody.
You got a problem with bodies rising up and entering the city? I think it’s great! (“gasp!”).
Yea, and I think saints in perfect form after a century or two of noncorruption is great too! (enjoying imagining discomforted fundamentalists, so keeps going, wickedly).
Yea, and I think Mel’s drop of water belongs in the Word of God too!
- right next to Martin Luther King Jr.’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail!”
NOW I’ve gone too far? If you think so, YOU’RE RACIST! (just kidding)
(done with fundy baiting for tonight)
Don't take yourself and your God so seriously, remember this is the Bible that has Rachel bleeding on her dad's Gumby collection. This is one very funny book (though Psalms make me cry).
Juan, don't post this.. people without imagination are very sensitive. You will lose credibility. You come across as condescending and patronizing.
"Oh come on, the girls just wanna have fun."
No, you can't "bait" people regarding their religious beliefs.
But surely they can enjoy a bit of a laugh at their own expense? I promise they can make fun of me for something. How about: for reading the Bible every day without believing that it all "fits together" so nicely? You know what it is? It's Mike. He drives me crazy. I don't read his stuff..but just knowing he's out there, and he's serious. That's scary to me.
Well now, I think the two of you should sit down and have some Earl Gray.
No! I promise I'll be good!
Are the Dead Alive Now? (in case you forgot the opening of this post, I am here coming back to the topic again). Well, I do think of Mom everyday. Will I see her again? I'll leave that up to the Boss -but I DO want to see that twelve-fruited tree (Rev. 22:2). Don't tell me THAT is just a figure of speech. It's almost the only verse in the Bible I take literally. Does it have watermelons and pineapples? Or just a bunch of orientalisamish fruits that I’ve never heard of or, at least, have never bought in the produce section?
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Third of Four
Lots of things to understand here. Do I? I don't know.
Gen 2:17 Eat of the the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and you surely die.
From that point on physical death as well as spiritual for all until the accomplisments of Jesus Christ, but then "all?" taken up in the 1. gathering and 2. resurrected for the day of judgment, two events. I Thess 4:13-18 and John 5:28,29
Is it the accomplishment that Jesus Christ did, Romans 5 that allowed God who is LIFE (Old Testatment) to transfer LIFE, the authority of, to Jesus Christ (New Testament), John 5:26, thus allowing Jesus Christ to gather I Thess 4:13-18 and resurrect John 5: 28,29 all.
Is therefore the last enemy to be destroyed, death Rev 21:4 and what relationship does that have to do with the "second" death Rev 20:6,14 or after death one and two is there NO more death whether one or two.
If death is a bad thing and it separated us from God and it took the accomplishments of Jesus Christ to overcome. Then would it be death without the gathering and the resurrection that would re-unite people with God?
Oh Well, time to eat Sunday brunch. Comfort Food!!!!
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