MHO, here...and I don't claim to be the expert at VP, but if I'm not mistaken, both BG Leonard and Bullinger were not Arian. VP was. If he merely taught from their lessons, he wouldn't have been able to put his Arian spin on it.
Once again, imho, that Arianism was a central necessity to his (VP's) ego-centric philosophy. Incorporating the Arian heresy into the philsophy he taught, allowed him to place himself at the same level as Christ and to make himself worthy of the same level of adoration.
But, once again, this is all IMHO...I don't claim to be the authority on the subject. It's just something that I haven't seen posted in this forum.
I think it runs even deepr Pat tha vpw worship , it is about self worship .
He taught about the higher powers and the special force of the Way corps. It never sold as a service to the world at large but rather to the individual and the ministry almost exclusivly.
At first it was immature young people leaving home, drug addicts and very troubled looking for acceptence many took the class because we didnt have the rules church demanded everything was grace and it didnt matter..
Then as time went on those who like to have the authority over others and liked manipulation and power trips and people pleasing gained in numbers and power in the ministry.
They learned how to "make friends and influence people" the vpw way and it became a cult . I heard more clergy threaten and fight and agrue with one another not over helping someone over controling people and situations . They enjoyed the worship fame of twi brought from the people for their own selfs.
the mogfot replaced Jesus as head of the body in TWI. Who says he was absent, VeePee the clown trying to take the savior's place?
How can you be an ambassador for Christ if he was absent? As an ambassador in real life, you have an on going relationship with who you represent, right? How can you deal with someone not there?
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
the mogfot replaced Jesus as head of the body in TWI.
That's my point. That's the crux of Arianism.
quote:Who says he was absent, VeePee the clown trying to take the savior's place?
How can you be an ambassador for Christ if he was absent? As an ambassador in real life, you have an on going relationship with who you represent, right? How can you deal with someone not there?
Well, ambassador for Christ is a separate issue. Up until the modern day of communication, ambassadors had pretty sweeping authority and responsibility...they weren't able to check with the boss before they could take a leak. But, again, that is part of the fraud. With TWI, you had to check. Otherwise, you'd get it whacked. Again, its part of the fraud.
Two points on the comparison you did with VPW and BG Leonard:
In LCM's class, the "born again" session was moved to 7 versus 12. It doesn't change your point though.
The "hands on" training was done at my advanced class in the 80s which was still the one done by VPW. I couldn't say if that has continued or even done again. However, I haven't studied any of Brother Leonard's material so I am not in a position to compare.
The hands on training of B.G.Leonard's class was that you actually ministered healing to someone at an evening service on several occasions during the class schedule with the class instructor guiding you through what was the revelation and what was your own thoughts.
An example with me was the instructor would say, do you see this or that, and would guide you to look closer at that part of what was being said or if you were making it up, the instructor would call you on it.
I had TWI's advanced class 3 times, the last in 1982? and never had the instructor lay hands on someone with me in ministering.
As far as being born again, it was a requirement that you were already proficient in the 3 worship gifts before taking B.G. Leonard's class. The beginning of each day started with us each in turn manifesting the worship gifts.
B.G. said it was impossible to understand scripture without having the guidance of holy spirit in the person studying...
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
[This message was edited by pjroberge on March 08, 2004 at 7:20.]
quote:My question is this: If the material in Piffle has some good in it, perhaps that part is what VeePee didn't mess up when he stole it from others. Why not study the genuine article from the original writers instead of VeePee's bad counterfeit?
Hi Pat, I'm with you that we should study works of B.G. Leonard, Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon. BUT they weren't around and didn't reach me when I needed to hear the Word...TWI was. We learned about them through TWI. The real issue is whether or not it's the rightly divided Word and that part that was was a blessing. That part that wasn't, wasn't.
Still working on the Heavenly Sperm Bank teaching?
I don't see why some people find amusement in a theory I postulated many years ago. It was a theory and one that I think better explains Jesus conception versus VeePee's Mary having sex with God or the other variations of it.
For the record my theory was:
While writing a book (which I haven't finished), I had a theory about God not creating life more than once.
Examples included creating Adam, then not creating Eve, but taking genetic material (a rib) from Adam to make Eve.
Then when all life was to be wiped out by the flood, life was preserved in an ark with Noah.
My theory about Mary's conception was that God removed sperm from Adam in the garden before the fall of man (maybe at the same time as the rib), and preserved it in a frozen state. The only parts of the human body that can be frozen and brought back to life are sperm and eggs.
It's like we do with cow and horse sperm for future impregnation. Because the earth was covered by a flood, I think God only had space (where HE lives) left as a viable place where it could be kept frozen for future implantation into Mary.
Then, Jesus would have been fathered by Adam, and maybe that is why Jesus was called the 2nd Adam, and that might have more significance than people realized.
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
quote:Pat said: My question is this: If the material in Piffle has some good in it, perhaps that part is what VeePee didn't mess up when he stole it from others.
Why not study the genuine article from the original writers instead of VeePee's bad counterfeit?
I couldn't agree more on that and have suggested it myself.
quote:MJ said: He taught about the higher powers and the special force of the Way corps. It never sold as a service to the world at large but rather to the individual and the ministry almost exclusivly.
That's not true (from my experience, maybe your's was different). It was 'sold' as a service to God, His people in the world and the ministry, at least back in the 70's. The key word being 'sold'. As with any endeavor, some folks had a different agenda both the teachers and the students.
She's the kind of a girl that makes the "News of the World" Yes you could say she was attractively built.
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on March 08, 2004 at 12:10.]
Well this is all well and good but there seem to be people who don't care one iota about VPW's
poor scholarship and plagiarism (even if it took a while for them to finally admit it)preferring to point out that they were "saved","rescued" by those words and the The Way Ministry therefore
nothing else matters. Such people exist here
on these boards.
But to this I say thats fine - have your bliss, even if its based in willful ignorance, though don't criticize those who saw the astonishing lack of "integrity" that VPW liked to talk about so much. I don't know if these people are
so much VPW worhsippers as they are preservationists who are nostalgic for their
youth and the good times they had at that point in their lives. Its like after TWI they have
no interest in moving forward or establishing new goals except perhaps to defend their investment in TWI.
So even if you get some of these people to admit that VPW was a shoddy student and a womanizer it won't make much difference to them. They don't want to let go of their cherished memories of a time that was supposedly so innocent and pure.
Remember that book "The Way Living In Love" ?
Nice book huh ? Its my favorite piece of Way fiction. It was supposed to be an accurate representation of what was happening.
Lots of people talked it up and used it as an example. But you know... I never saw The Way that was described in that book. Sure I knew some of the people some of the locales but
despite my best efforts I could never find
any Twig, Branch, Limb where people were
getting delivered, healed, and all was
merry throughout the land. The book glossed over all the normal and mundane things that
people had to do just to get to Twig.
Anyway - I'm convinced that lots of Way diehards still read this book as they drift off
to sleep yearning for those "good ole days"
when so and so fell asleep on bless patrol
only to be awakened by the snoring of rev so-and so. Ha , Ha, Ha, What great times. Well I won't ask anyone to stop enjoying their memories though I would ask them not to allow their interest in nostlagia to overshadow reality.
[This message was edited by diazbro on March 08, 2004 at 12:00.]
"My theory about Mary's conception was that God removed sperm from Adam in the garden before the fall of man (maybe at the same time as the rib), and preserved it in a frozen state."
quote:It was a theory and one that I think better explains Jesus conception versus VeePee's Mary having sex with God or the other variations of it.
Victor Paul Wierwille NEVER taught that God had sex with Mary. Here's what he said...
quote:This child would not be conceived in her by a man, but by God, the Holy Spirit. Therefore the child would be called the Son of God.
In verse 31 (of Luke 1), the angel said that Mary would conceive in her womb. The "womb" figuratively" represents all the internal female organs associated with reproduction by the figure of speech synecdoche. "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee" simply expresses the truth that God, not a man, would impregnate the egg in Mary by creating a sperm within her fallopian tube at the proper moment of ovulation so that fertilization would occur.
Creating a sperm in a fallopian tube does NOT mean God had sex with Mary.
JCOP p. 158.
I can't find my copy of The Word's Way, but he does not say in that book that God had sex with Mary. Wierwille taught enough things inaccurately without having to buy into the hysterical claims of anti-cultists who wouldn't believe VPW if he said "good morning."
The problem with the "sperm in space" theory is that it would have been so thoroughly irradiated by gamma rays that it would be nothing but a coagulated protein smear in a very short time. Plus, it's the old Superman/Lois Lane problem (Larry Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" problem) If Adam's pelvic muscles could launch that one sperm into orbit, he'd have blown Eve's head off the first time they mated. Plus, you still have to have some sort of antifreeze solution to keep the sperm in so that ice crystals don't form inside the cell membrane and rupture it.
Then, there's also that it would make all the genealogies in the Bible that traced Jesus' lineage down through the intervening bloodline into complete lies.
No, there's just too much hassle that God would have to go through in order to preserve one of Adam's sperm cells. Besides, Jesus is the Son of GOD, and only the long descendant of Adam, so it's perfectly believable that God, as Jesus' True Father would be quite justified in making His own special sperm to get the job done, without resorting to comic-book physics.
quote:Plus, you still have to have some sort of antifreeze solution to keep the sperm in so that ice crystals don't form inside the cell membrane and rupture it.
We freeze human sperm and eggs all the time today in liquid nitrogen, so that part of the theory is ok. The space irradiation is a good point zixar.
The phrase 2nd adam referring to Jesus still needs a better explanation I think. It is an unusual thing to say about Jesus.
1Cor.15
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
Pat: Yes, the gametes can be frozen in LN, but a small amount of an antifreeze agent is mixed in with the sample before it's frozen, much like anti-clotting agents are added to donated blood.
As far as "Adam" goes, it is, after all, the generic Hebrew term for the word "man", so that verse may not have anything to do with calling Jesus a second Adam, just the second "man".(Yes, Paul wrote it in Greek, but he was a Pharisee after all.) "The first [man] was made a living soul, the second [man] was made a quickening spirit."
I think it runs even deepr Pat tha vpw worship , it is about self worship .
You're right, but what about the MOGFOT issue? The MOGFOT says something and the "believers" turn off their brains.
But, the bottom line is egotism.
I know I was right there and I did it as well and even woman who where only twig leadersseemed intimidating.
It is people pleasing and gaining our approval from sources Other than the One that that matters the most .
People need to fill our esteem from somewhere and often it isnt even our own "self " we attempt to gain feel good feelings from "other" sources the MOG fits that idea, we think we are ok and good by the size of house we own, if our kids love us , If it is a good hair day , the education we have, our money and the relationships we have with others. the list is endless..
We can link our own personal feeling about who we are to other esteems ,Instead of knowing your a good kind honest person and building a life from the truth we can set our eyes on what another or even the society or community at large may tell us about ourself.
Relgious people get "other esteem" from being linked to a group that tells them they are loved by God more than the average person etc.
other esteem can fill the need of approval for us, yet it often fails us at some point as not being enough. As in twi . the MOG was link for many of esteem I had a conversation with a friend once while in TWI ( he is still in and always will be) I told him a story of a dinner I had with Rev cummings and he was acting like I was speaking to God himself and thought it was so great.
Like people did with MIke Jackson or anyone who build some fame others can try to link on that fame and "feel good" and build esteem ironicly the cost is often a true knowledge of your own self and inability to be your own person in the relationship because of your lack of genuine self esteem.
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vickles
Amen and Amen!!! I agree totally. Good post!!!!
If you do not tell the truth about yourself you can not tell it about other people.
virginia woolfe
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markomalley
MHO, here...and I don't claim to be the expert at VP, but if I'm not mistaken, both BG Leonard and Bullinger were not Arian. VP was. If he merely taught from their lessons, he wouldn't have been able to put his Arian spin on it.
Once again, imho, that Arianism was a central necessity to his (VP's) ego-centric philosophy. Incorporating the Arian heresy into the philsophy he taught, allowed him to place himself at the same level as Christ and to make himself worthy of the same level of adoration.
But, once again, this is all IMHO...I don't claim to be the authority on the subject. It's just something that I haven't seen posted in this forum.
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pjroberge
Mark:
An interesting viewpoint that should be included in the topic of VeePee......
Here's a little comparison I did comparing B.G. Leonard's ministry and VeePee's business called The Way International, Inc.
http://www.waychrist.com/BG%20V.%20VPW.htm
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.
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mj412
I think it runs even deepr Pat tha vpw worship , it is about self worship .
He taught about the higher powers and the special force of the Way corps. It never sold as a service to the world at large but rather to the individual and the ministry almost exclusivly.
At first it was immature young people leaving home, drug addicts and very troubled looking for acceptence many took the class because we didnt have the rules church demanded everything was grace and it didnt matter..
Then as time went on those who like to have the authority over others and liked manipulation and power trips and people pleasing gained in numbers and power in the ministry.
They learned how to "make friends and influence people" the vpw way and it became a cult . I heard more clergy threaten and fight and agrue with one another not over helping someone over controling people and situations . They enjoyed the worship fame of twi brought from the people for their own selfs.
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pjroberge
mj412:
You may find this comparison enjoyable. I edited my previous post with the link but your post was already up.
http://www.waychrist.com/BG%20V.%20VPW.htm
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.
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markomalley
But, the bottom line is egotism.
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pjroberge
the mogfot replaced Jesus as head of the body in TWI. Who says he was absent, VeePee the clown trying to take the savior's place?
How can you be an ambassador for Christ if he was absent? As an ambassador in real life, you have an on going relationship with who you represent, right? How can you deal with someone not there?
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.
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markomalley
Well, ambassador for Christ is a separate issue. Up until the modern day of communication, ambassadors had pretty sweeping authority and responsibility...they weren't able to check with the boss before they could take a leak. But, again, that is part of the fraud. With TWI, you had to check. Otherwise, you'd get it whacked. Again, its part of the fraud.
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JustThinking
PJ,
Two points on the comparison you did with VPW and BG Leonard:
In LCM's class, the "born again" session was moved to 7 versus 12. It doesn't change your point though.
The "hands on" training was done at my advanced class in the 80s which was still the one done by VPW. I couldn't say if that has continued or even done again. However, I haven't studied any of Brother Leonard's material so I am not in a position to compare.
JT
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pjroberge
JT:
The hands on training of B.G.Leonard's class was that you actually ministered healing to someone at an evening service on several occasions during the class schedule with the class instructor guiding you through what was the revelation and what was your own thoughts.
An example with me was the instructor would say, do you see this or that, and would guide you to look closer at that part of what was being said or if you were making it up, the instructor would call you on it.
I had TWI's advanced class 3 times, the last in 1982? and never had the instructor lay hands on someone with me in ministering.
As far as being born again, it was a requirement that you were already proficient in the 3 worship gifts before taking B.G. Leonard's class. The beginning of each day started with us each in turn manifesting the worship gifts.
B.G. said it was impossible to understand scripture without having the guidance of holy spirit in the person studying...
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
[This message was edited by pjroberge on March 08, 2004 at 7:20.]
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oldiesman
Hi Pat, I'm with you that we should study works of B.G. Leonard, Bullinger, Stiles, Kenyon. BUT they weren't around and didn't reach me when I needed to hear the Word...TWI was. We learned about them through TWI. The real issue is whether or not it's the rightly divided Word and that part that was was a blessing. That part that wasn't, wasn't.
Still working on the Heavenly Sperm Bank teaching?
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pjroberge
Oldiesman:
I don't see why some people find amusement in a theory I postulated many years ago. It was a theory and one that I think better explains Jesus conception versus VeePee's Mary having sex with God or the other variations of it.
For the record my theory was:
While writing a book (which I haven't finished), I had a theory about God not creating life more than once.
Examples included creating Adam, then not creating Eve, but taking genetic material (a rib) from Adam to make Eve.
Then when all life was to be wiped out by the flood, life was preserved in an ark with Noah.
My theory about Mary's conception was that God removed sperm from Adam in the garden before the fall of man (maybe at the same time as the rib), and preserved it in a frozen state. The only parts of the human body that can be frozen and brought back to life are sperm and eggs.
It's like we do with cow and horse sperm for future impregnation. Because the earth was covered by a flood, I think God only had space (where HE lives) left as a viable place where it could be kept frozen for future implantation into Mary.
Then, Jesus would have been fathered by Adam, and maybe that is why Jesus was called the 2nd Adam, and that might have more significance than people realized.
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
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Tom Strange
She's the kind of a girl that makes the "News of the World" Yes you could say she was attractively built.
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on March 08, 2004 at 12:10.]
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diazbro
Well this is all well and good but there seem to be people who don't care one iota about VPW's
poor scholarship and plagiarism (even if it took a while for them to finally admit it)preferring to point out that they were "saved","rescued" by those words and the The Way Ministry therefore
nothing else matters. Such people exist here
on these boards.
But to this I say thats fine - have your bliss, even if its based in willful ignorance, though don't criticize those who saw the astonishing lack of "integrity" that VPW liked to talk about so much. I don't know if these people are
so much VPW worhsippers as they are preservationists who are nostalgic for their
youth and the good times they had at that point in their lives. Its like after TWI they have
no interest in moving forward or establishing new goals except perhaps to defend their investment in TWI.
So even if you get some of these people to admit that VPW was a shoddy student and a womanizer it won't make much difference to them. They don't want to let go of their cherished memories of a time that was supposedly so innocent and pure.
Remember that book "The Way Living In Love" ?
Nice book huh ? Its my favorite piece of Way fiction. It was supposed to be an accurate representation of what was happening.
Lots of people talked it up and used it as an example. But you know... I never saw The Way that was described in that book. Sure I knew some of the people some of the locales but
despite my best efforts I could never find
any Twig, Branch, Limb where people were
getting delivered, healed, and all was
merry throughout the land. The book glossed over all the normal and mundane things that
people had to do just to get to Twig.
Anyway - I'm convinced that lots of Way diehards still read this book as they drift off
to sleep yearning for those "good ole days"
when so and so fell asleep on bless patrol
only to be awakened by the snoring of rev so-and so. Ha , Ha, Ha, What great times. Well I won't ask anyone to stop enjoying their memories though I would ask them not to allow their interest in nostlagia to overshadow reality.
[This message was edited by diazbro on March 08, 2004 at 12:00.]
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dmiller
"My theory about Mary's conception was that God removed sperm from Adam in the garden before the fall of man (maybe at the same time as the rib), and preserved it in a frozen state."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would that "frozen state" be MINNESOTA?!?
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TheInvisibleDan
Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this more or less along the lines of what VP taught on "soul-life"?
Though I can't recall precisely where he taught this (perhaps in Piffle?).
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Raf
Victor Paul Wierwille NEVER taught that God had sex with Mary. Here's what he said...
Creating a sperm in a fallopian tube does NOT mean God had sex with Mary.
JCOP p. 158.
I can't find my copy of The Word's Way, but he does not say in that book that God had sex with Mary. Wierwille taught enough things inaccurately without having to buy into the hysterical claims of anti-cultists who wouldn't believe VPW if he said "good morning."
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Zixar
The problem with the "sperm in space" theory is that it would have been so thoroughly irradiated by gamma rays that it would be nothing but a coagulated protein smear in a very short time. Plus, it's the old Superman/Lois Lane problem (Larry Niven's "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" problem) If Adam's pelvic muscles could launch that one sperm into orbit, he'd have blown Eve's head off the first time they mated. Plus, you still have to have some sort of antifreeze solution to keep the sperm in so that ice crystals don't form inside the cell membrane and rupture it.
Then, there's also that it would make all the genealogies in the Bible that traced Jesus' lineage down through the intervening bloodline into complete lies.
No, there's just too much hassle that God would have to go through in order to preserve one of Adam's sperm cells. Besides, Jesus is the Son of GOD, and only the long descendant of Adam, so it's perfectly believable that God, as Jesus' True Father would be quite justified in making His own special sperm to get the job done, without resorting to comic-book physics.
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Trefor Heywood
I clearly recall that God created in the sperm that fertilised Mary's egg and that it had "only dominant characteristics."
Brigham Young, the second leader of the Mormon church taught the doctrine that God had sex with Mary, but Mormons believe that God has a body.
VPW clearly taught that God is spirit so this would have made it more difficult
:D-->
Trefor Heywood
"Cymru Am Byth!"
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pjroberge
Zixar said:
We freeze human sperm and eggs all the time today in liquid nitrogen, so that part of the theory is ok. The space irradiation is a good point zixar.
The phrase 2nd adam referring to Jesus still needs a better explanation I think. It is an unusual thing to say about Jesus.
1Cor.15
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
"A battle of wits is hardly enjoyable when the other party is unarmed"
Copyright 2004 by the author.All rights reserved. Duplication prohibited
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Zixar
Pat: Yes, the gametes can be frozen in LN, but a small amount of an antifreeze agent is mixed in with the sample before it's frozen, much like anti-clotting agents are added to donated blood.
As far as "Adam" goes, it is, after all, the generic Hebrew term for the word "man", so that verse may not have anything to do with calling Jesus a second Adam, just the second "man".(Yes, Paul wrote it in Greek, but he was a Pharisee after all.) "The first [man] was made a living soul, the second [man] was made a quickening spirit."
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Tom Strange
Zixar, couldn't he do whatever he wanted because he was God and not subject to the laws of physics?
She's the kind of a girl that makes the "News of the World" Yes you could say she was attractively built.
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mj412
I know I was right there and I did it as well and even woman who where only twig leadersseemed intimidating.
It is people pleasing and gaining our approval from sources Other than the One that that matters the most .
People need to fill our esteem from somewhere and often it isnt even our own "self " we attempt to gain feel good feelings from "other" sources the MOG fits that idea, we think we are ok and good by the size of house we own, if our kids love us , If it is a good hair day , the education we have, our money and the relationships we have with others. the list is endless..
We can link our own personal feeling about who we are to other esteems ,Instead of knowing your a good kind honest person and building a life from the truth we can set our eyes on what another or even the society or community at large may tell us about ourself.
Relgious people get "other esteem" from being linked to a group that tells them they are loved by God more than the average person etc.
other esteem can fill the need of approval for us, yet it often fails us at some point as not being enough. As in twi . the MOG was link for many of esteem I had a conversation with a friend once while in TWI ( he is still in and always will be) I told him a story of a dinner I had with Rev cummings and he was acting like I was speaking to God himself and thought it was so great.
Like people did with MIke Jackson or anyone who build some fame others can try to link on that fame and "feel good" and build esteem ironicly the cost is often a true knowledge of your own self and inability to be your own person in the relationship because of your lack of genuine self esteem.
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Dot Matrix
Pat
I am glad you showed up with these comparisons to BG Leonard I marked one of your studies down in doctrinal cause I likes it.
Some folks here that worshop VP need to hear this stuff. Thanks for sharing.
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