Just thinking about this great verse and what we can initiate in a persons life.
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Isreel, and strangers from the covenents of promise, HAVING NO HOPE AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD.
I never understood this very well, when in the Way, but when we speak to people who are without God, we are actually giving them HOPE.
Maybe, they do not believe in God, maybe they hate God, maybe they are suffering with a deadly sickness. We can give them hope. Many times they, who have no hope have to start with a hope, which then can develop into believing.
When I see someone that is manifesting an illness, I have no problem mentioning to them that God wants to heal them. Maybe they have never heard this before, and if they have not, it can give them hope, when priviously, there was no hope. Hope is a good thing. When someone gets hope, they now have a goal which they can start to believe.
I never understood this before, but now I do not any longer have a desire to give up on people. Unbelief is just not having hope. Just give them something to hope for, and if it takes hold, they can believe.
I love what you said about the life of the spirit being in the blood of Jesus Christ. Thank you for that, Roy.
Yeah, CW, the breathing thing. I gotta think about that one for a while. :)-->
And freaky and Lightside,
Much to think about, yeah! Ya know, Lightside, healing IS for everyone, but sometimes it doesn't look like what we think it should. I only say this because I seem to have the knack for praying with people and being with them at the time their life as they know it, is coming to an end. Even if someone is drawing their last breath, we can still offer them the hope that is in Jesus Christ. Or at least remind them of it, and bring comfort and peace. Assuage the fear...
Geeeze, I sound like the angel of death or something... But I'm not, I promise!
[This message was edited by ex10 on February 19, 2004 at 22:22.]
From what I've read in the gospels, Jesus describes the holy spirit as the Comforter and the Counsellor, who will lead, guide, and convict.
In TWI, we were taught that the holy spirit was a gift, that we operated at will. Somehow this teaching doesn't fit with the words of Jesus in the gospels.
I'm putting this topic here instead of in the doctrinal forum because I'm not so interested in a chapter and verse dissection of the subject, just wondering what others think about it.
Any thoughts anyone?
Word of Knowledge is your operaton ofthe God Given ability to recieve from God by his reveiling it to you..............acurate and perfect Counsel which will lead, guide, and convict.
Toungues with interpretation and prohecy were tought to give exhortation and comfort.
But Ralph my friend, the holy spirit is referred to as "The Comforter," by Jesus himself.
It makes me wonder, could all the evidences, gifts, manifestations, whatever you want to call them, be for comfort? mainly? Lord knows we need a little of that in this life.
It makes me wonder, could all the evidences, gifts, manifestations, whatever you want to call them, be for comfort? mainly? Lord knows we need a little of that in this life.
To me it is obvious that what was sent after christ ascended was for comfort...of self and of others.
What is disease if not simply dis (or "un") ease? Healings overcome the discomfort that causes sickness.
What is faith if not simply a state of calm? Faith overcomes the discomfort of fear.
What are miracles if not simply affirmations of faith? Miracles overcome the discomfort of doubt.
What is knowledge if not simply a source of strength? Knowledge overcomes the discomfort of weakness.
What is wisdom if not simply successful use of knowledge? Wisdom overcomes the discomfort of failure-related shame.
What is discerning of spirits if not simply the successful use of wisdom? Discerning of spirits overcomes the discomfort of being trapped in cyclic dysfunction.
What is prophecy if not simply the right thing said at the right time? Prophecy overcomes the discomfort of anxiety.
What is interpretation of tongues if not simply an expression of understanding? Interpretation of tongues overcomes the discomfort of discord.
What is tongues if not simply a tool to quiet the mind? Tongues overcomes the discomfort of inner turmoil.
All of this is as I understand in my life. I do not offer any of this for doctrine or for teaching...but simply for consideration.
I have been thinking about the bread and wine we use in remembrance of Christ
The wheat gives up its plant life so we can have food for the body = the bread
The grape gives up its plant life so we can have drink for the body = wine
Jesus gave up his soul life so we could have the food of Christ in us and the drink of Christ in us
quote:John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
quote:It makes me wonder, could all the evidences, gifts, manifestations, whatever you want to call them, be for comfort? mainly? Lord knows we need a little of that in this life.
I hear ya, ex10. One little part of this that hits me when I read the gospels is how much the disciples loved Jesus and He loved them. They had a really close relationship. Almost extraordinary the way they hooked up and lived together, and kept coming back to one another. They struggled with what He taught, asked questions, argued about it all, had high expectations one minute, were scratching their heads the next and through it all there's that loving friendship growing and growing.
It must have fried their brains, seeing Him riff with the Pharisees. Here these Starched Ones had hassled everyone all their lives and Jesus deals with them like their chopped liver. You can imagine the way they felt - as long as Jesus was on the case, 'sall good.
The disciples seemed so distraught at the idea that he was leaving them, going somewhere. "Where?", "Can we come?", "Which one of us will be Top Dog when we're all together, y'know, later on?" He tells them don't worry, I'm going away but I'll send a Comforter.
Why the comfort? A part of it had to be that the one they had loved and followed was leaving, and apparently before all the Big Plans came about. Their friend, leader, teacher, was going away. But the Comforter would come, He wouldn't leave them alone. And remember this............"I'll be BACK!" :)-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
[This message was edited by socks on February 21, 2004 at 3:14.]
And the amazing thing is that he gave us a Comforter so that he can be present in our lives as our Lord, leader, teacher, friend. As in where two or more of you are gathered in my name, etc. We can KNOW him intimately, and know how he works in our hearts, in our lives, in his church. He shows us how to "do the workds that he did, and greater..." by the promise of the Comforter and Counsellor.
Why, I think we've stumbled upon the missing link in Wierwillian Theology of the holy spirit... ;)-->
VPW said the gift of prophey or Tongues with interpretations is to be used only when three or more are there or at least that what most people believe it is teaching us
But I say no and yes
Does not make sence both answers yes
Here is why
The context is while in a Church which here is group come together for family worship
In this case yes because it keeps order within the group
But when not in a church group these verses are not in use
Many OT believers receive prophecy all alone and if you can receive prophecy all alone so can you receive tongues in interpretation all alone or faith
You see faith is in the list too and you can build faith in a group or all alone
I believe alot of believers miss out on things because they are afraid to do them all alone
The more I read these days in the New Testament, the more I see Him. That probably sounds stupid to some, but I guess I'm a slow learner. Better late than never, maybe.
Side-ways point:
Pauls talks in Romans 2 about the "gentiles" and how when those who don't have the Mosaic law and it's promises act according to their conscience, they are in fact more obedient to "the law" than those of Israel, the Jews, who have the law given to them but don't do it. Within those verses it seems to say the conscience provides the means to obey the essence of the law of God and can provide those who seek to do right a way to know right and wrong.
I've been reading some things about this, trying to get a feel for it. It's common for Christians to view the "unbeliever" (gentile) as having no moral center, no means of knowing right from wrong without "the bible". But Paul paints this idea that in fact the essence of what the law required in action could be observed by responding to the conscience.
Which is kind of leading me to believe that Paul recognizes that there is a moral center in the soul of humanity, God-given, that can know right from wrong in the same sense that the O.T. law dealt with it.
He also addresses the consistency of a sinful nature in all mankind, Jew or Gentile, but this is interesting to me. It seems to make sense and would account for the ability common to all to respond to God's redemptive plan and a feel a need for a larger "good" if you will.
Hmmm. So that's made me think about holy spirit and what we have generated in our lives through Christ.
If it's not by works of the law that our faith is made acceptable, but by Christ, it stands that other "good" works of moral/conscience follow suit. Good works, stuff we do to be "good" go to a point and stop, regardless of where they come from, the law or conscience. Acceptance of Christ's completed works pick up at that point, doing what we can't-we're not even supposed to. From there, what we do follows God's plan in Christ, the church, one body, etc. all the things that Ephesians says about it.
So, long story long, the real difference between what a person with holy spirit does and someone who doesn't have it is focused on Christ. The character of that spirit is Christ Himself, "Christ in us". Our works and stuff can now be acceptable because they progress out from that h.s. , our new "conscience", moral sense. Within that is the capability for altruism and love without hypocrisy because it flows from Him in us. He has that demonstrated and continued capability and quality as seen in the gospels. We are connected to Him in a unique way that opens Him up to us.
Just thinking, Ephesians seems to say most of this. Guess I'm just thinking it over. Make any sense?
_
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
_
James Taylor
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
Explains why non-Judeo-Christian types throughout history have understood things like compassion and love, offer their lives as sacrifices, and even perform miracles and get visions and so forth. God is not a racist, after all!
There is a form of love and spirit that is demonstrated by the Christ of the Bible, recognizable to all, regardless of what evil things are done in his name.
Exactly, socks. And this is where the idea of "power" enters in. The holy spirit is also "the power from on high, the promise of the Father" (the ultimate "power") We can't skip Jesus as Lord and think we have it.
The tragic flaw of the way......skip Jesus, just show me the power, that I can use, to do MY will, etc.
You still with me?
Sir guess, exactly why those who misuse "the power" become so despicable. ;)-->
Thanks, sir! I've really been trying to go over the moral ground the bible presents. God so love "the world". Granted He doesn't love the enmity between Himself and mankind, but it's obvious He knew we were at worst an accident waiting to happen. Even if I view the biblical records as a filter, a way of recording things from our perspective only, "God" as written about appears to have offered choices - life is one choice after another. Wouldn't there have to be a means of making that choice between good and evil, right/wrong, Jesus/no Jesus? If we were absolutely empty of any ability to know right from wrong we'd never "learn", we'd only survive, maybe, and there'd be no way to recognize "light" or right.
I read a piece that described that part in Romans 2 as the answer to the question "but what about the people in (BumFlock) who never hear about Jesus?" People will be judged at the base level of how they responded to that inner sense of right and wrong and how they lived. "Conscience". Interesting read. Can't find it now, it was in a series of online searches I was doing. It's not a new idea I guess.
Don't beat me, ex10! I'll get on topic, promise! :D-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
Hey it ain't you. I spent the day at church and it put me in a mood, and has brought out my inner "know it all smart aleck." Please do me a favor and totally ignore everything I say tonight. :P-->
And also in my defense, my dearly beloved rented "The Three Amigos" and is forcing me to watch it with him. :D-->
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Lightside
Great thought, Colleen
Just thinking about this great verse and what we can initiate in a persons life.
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Isreel, and strangers from the covenents of promise, HAVING NO HOPE AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD.
I never understood this very well, when in the Way, but when we speak to people who are without God, we are actually giving them HOPE.
Maybe, they do not believe in God, maybe they hate God, maybe they are suffering with a deadly sickness. We can give them hope. Many times they, who have no hope have to start with a hope, which then can develop into believing.
When I see someone that is manifesting an illness, I have no problem mentioning to them that God wants to heal them. Maybe they have never heard this before, and if they have not, it can give them hope, when priviously, there was no hope. Hope is a good thing. When someone gets hope, they now have a goal which they can start to believe.
I never understood this before, but now I do not any longer have a desire to give up on people. Unbelief is just not having hope. Just give them something to hope for, and if it takes hold, they can believe.
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year2027
Hi All
After reading what JezusFreaky and LightSide said I rember somthing that happen coming back from HQ
I was with S.S. and F.B. coming back from HQ and we stop at a rest stop
I said
to some one I did not know
The man was blessed because he had a heart attack a week or to ago and he had stop and was worried about things
We pray for him and it blessed him big
With love and peace Roy
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ex10
Roy
I love what you said about the life of the spirit being in the blood of Jesus Christ. Thank you for that, Roy.
Yeah, CW, the breathing thing. I gotta think about that one for a while.
:)-->
And freaky and Lightside,
Much to think about, yeah! Ya know, Lightside, healing IS for everyone, but sometimes it doesn't look like what we think it should. I only say this because I seem to have the knack for praying with people and being with them at the time their life as they know it, is coming to an end. Even if someone is drawing their last breath, we can still offer them the hope that is in Jesus Christ. Or at least remind them of it, and bring comfort and peace. Assuage the fear...
Geeeze, I sound like the angel of death or something...
But I'm not, I promise!
[This message was edited by ex10 on February 19, 2004 at 22:22.]
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Ralph Snyder
Word of Knowledge is your operaton ofthe God Given ability to recieve from God by his reveiling it to you..............acurate and perfect Counsel which will lead, guide, and convict.
Toungues with interpretation and prohecy were tought to give exhortation and comfort.
UT1
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ex10
But Ralph my friend, the holy spirit is referred to as "The Comforter," by Jesus himself.
It makes me wonder, could all the evidences, gifts, manifestations, whatever you want to call them, be for comfort? mainly? Lord knows we need a little of that in this life.
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CoolWaters
To me it is obvious that what was sent after christ ascended was for comfort...of self and of others.
What is disease if not simply dis (or "un") ease? Healings overcome the discomfort that causes sickness.
What is faith if not simply a state of calm? Faith overcomes the discomfort of fear.
What are miracles if not simply affirmations of faith? Miracles overcome the discomfort of doubt.
What is knowledge if not simply a source of strength? Knowledge overcomes the discomfort of weakness.
What is wisdom if not simply successful use of knowledge? Wisdom overcomes the discomfort of failure-related shame.
What is discerning of spirits if not simply the successful use of wisdom? Discerning of spirits overcomes the discomfort of being trapped in cyclic dysfunction.
What is prophecy if not simply the right thing said at the right time? Prophecy overcomes the discomfort of anxiety.
What is interpretation of tongues if not simply an expression of understanding? Interpretation of tongues overcomes the discomfort of discord.
What is tongues if not simply a tool to quiet the mind? Tongues overcomes the discomfort of inner turmoil.
All of this is as I understand in my life. I do not offer any of this for doctrine or for teaching...but simply for consideration.
?????????????
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year2027
Hi Cool Waters
Thanks for the loving words earier but the last post you wrote where you said
I just love it because it was so simple and true so I have save it in Word Perfect to think on at times
Thanks that blesses me a lot
With love and peace Roy
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year2027
Hi All
I have been thinking about the bread and wine we use in remembrance of Christ
The wheat gives up its plant life so we can have food for the body = the bread
The grape gives up its plant life so we can have drink for the body = wine
Jesus gave up his soul life so we could have the food of Christ in us and the drink of Christ in us
Alot to think but I am just thinking out loud
With love and peace Roy
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socks
Flipped up stuff on this thread!
:)-->
I hear ya, ex10. One little part of this that hits me when I read the gospels is how much the disciples loved Jesus and He loved them. They had a really close relationship. Almost extraordinary the way they hooked up and lived together, and kept coming back to one another. They struggled with what He taught, asked questions, argued about it all, had high expectations one minute, were scratching their heads the next and through it all there's that loving friendship growing and growing.
It must have fried their brains, seeing Him riff with the Pharisees. Here these Starched Ones had hassled everyone all their lives and Jesus deals with them like their chopped liver. You can imagine the way they felt - as long as Jesus was on the case, 'sall good.
The disciples seemed so distraught at the idea that he was leaving them, going somewhere. "Where?", "Can we come?", "Which one of us will be Top Dog when we're all together, y'know, later on?" He tells them don't worry, I'm going away but I'll send a Comforter.
Why the comfort? A part of it had to be that the one they had loved and followed was leaving, and apparently before all the Big Plans came about. Their friend, leader, teacher, was going away. But the Comforter would come, He wouldn't leave them alone. And remember this............"I'll be BACK!"
:)-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
[This message was edited by socks on February 21, 2004 at 3:14.]
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ex10
Yeah, socks.
And the amazing thing is that he gave us a Comforter so that he can be present in our lives as our Lord, leader, teacher, friend. As in where two or more of you are gathered in my name, etc. We can KNOW him intimately, and know how he works in our hearts, in our lives, in his church. He shows us how to "do the workds that he did, and greater..." by the promise of the Comforter and Counsellor.
Why, I think we've stumbled upon the missing link in Wierwillian Theology of the holy spirit...
;)-->
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year2027
Hi All
VPW said the gift of prophey or Tongues with interpretations is to be used only when three or more are there or at least that what most people believe it is teaching us
But I say no and yes
Does not make sence both answers yes
Here is why
The context is while in a Church which here is group come together for family worship
In this case yes because it keeps order within the group
But when not in a church group these verses are not in use
Many OT believers receive prophecy all alone and if you can receive prophecy all alone so can you receive tongues in interpretation all alone or faith
You see faith is in the list too and you can build faith in a group or all alone
I believe alot of believers miss out on things because they are afraid to do them all alone
With love and peace Roy
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socks
dubble bubble post!
[This message was edited by socks on February 21, 2004 at 21:11.]
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socks
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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sirguessalot
That is good news, Socks.
Explains why non-Judeo-Christian types throughout history have understood things like compassion and love, offer their lives as sacrifices, and even perform miracles and get visions and so forth. God is not a racist, after all!
There is a form of love and spirit that is demonstrated by the Christ of the Bible, recognizable to all, regardless of what evil things are done in his name.
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ex10
Exactly, socks. And this is where the idea of "power" enters in. The holy spirit is also "the power from on high, the promise of the Father" (the ultimate "power") We can't skip Jesus as Lord and think we have it.
The tragic flaw of the way......skip Jesus, just show me the power, that I can use, to do MY will, etc.
You still with me?
Sir guess, exactly why those who misuse "the power" become so despicable.
;)-->
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ex10
OK, we interrupt this thread, for an altar call, we all fall on our faces and REPENT, singing "Just AS I AM."
Next song is "I Surrender All." We all cry, cleanse ourselves, breathe in deeply, and carry on.
:D-->
Gosh, I love you guys.
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socks
Thanks, sir! I've really been trying to go over the moral ground the bible presents. God so love "the world". Granted He doesn't love the enmity between Himself and mankind, but it's obvious He knew we were at worst an accident waiting to happen. Even if I view the biblical records as a filter, a way of recording things from our perspective only, "God" as written about appears to have offered choices - life is one choice after another. Wouldn't there have to be a means of making that choice between good and evil, right/wrong, Jesus/no Jesus? If we were absolutely empty of any ability to know right from wrong we'd never "learn", we'd only survive, maybe, and there'd be no way to recognize "light" or right.
I read a piece that described that part in Romans 2 as the answer to the question "but what about the people in (BumFlock) who never hear about Jesus?" People will be judged at the base level of how they responded to that inner sense of right and wrong and how they lived. "Conscience". Interesting read. Can't find it now, it was in a series of online searches I was doing. It's not a new idea I guess.
Don't beat me, ex10! I'll get on topic, promise!
:D-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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ex10
I know, socks, I jumped ahead. Sorry.
:(-->
It's the "oldest child" in me coming out. Do it my way or else..........you're wrong.
:D-->
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socks
"I knelt that night. I don't often kneel when I pray but that night I did and..."
Well, love you too!
:)--> Is this a teaching thread?
Sorry, I can't resist beating a dead horse.
:D-->
Nothing to do with this thread. I'll settle down.
Sorta.
Not at all. Jump ahead. I'm the middle child. I get it coming and going!
:D-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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ex10
ROFL socks!
Hey it ain't you. I spent the day at church and it put me in a mood, and has brought out my inner "know it all smart aleck." Please do me a favor and totally ignore everything I say tonight.
:P-->
And also in my defense, my dearly beloved rented "The Three Amigos" and is forcing me to watch it with him.
:D-->
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socks
Aaaaah. A CLASSIC! Is it a guy thing? Like the 3 Stooges? I love that movie.
We're watching Austin City Limits here in an hour or so. Our local PBS is re-showing a Jackson Browne concert. LOVE ACL. Down your way!
:D-->
In line, in line, it's all in a line. My ducks are all in a row.
They do not change, they do not move. They have nowhere to go.
James Taylor
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ex10
It's definitely a guy thing. Oh, The things we do for love....
:)-->
I'm hearing stains of Rock Me On The Water...in the background here.
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WordWolf
Ex?
Do you have many of these videos?
Might you even say you have a "plethora" of these videos?
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year2027
Hi All
I have been enjoying this post and its been helping me understand the holy breath more perfect
I have been trying to take every piece of what other have been saying and put it together in a whole and more perfect understanding of it
So I look forward to reading it every day
Thanks
With love and peace Roy
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