nah... nevermind OM... you're missing my point... I never said or inferred that you should be quiet about your experiences... just that I didn't understand why you spoke the way you did, or felt the need to speak about other people's experiences...
if you just said "I never saw that or experienced that", that would be different, but you take it further to the point of inferring doubt and inferring that folks should just get over it... whatever it is...
that's all... and that's a lot different than saying "hey OM, you can't talk"... you just dont' get it, you haven't here and haven't on other threads... so, you've said your piece, I've said mine... let's have a cervesa...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on January 15, 2004 at 18:09.]
Oldies, you said that *it`s not a true statement* from your point of view....that is just a sneaky way of saying that because you didn`t experience the same ... what we said was a lie....real slick.
It DID happen...it IS truth...whether you ever saw or experienced such.
It WOULD be possible for you to say your piece about what you experienced without calling us liars...you COULD also state your position without minimalising the abuses some of us endured ...without trying to shut us up .... pointing the finger at us and telling us we are whiney victims and we would be JUST fine if we would *get over it*....
But you don`t .... Are you doing it on purpose?
You seem to want to preserve the believe that it was a Godly organisation to the point of calling we who saw the satanic influence liars.
ie ... evil couldn`t coexist with the good there for we must be mistaken in what we percieved our experiences to be eh?
Do you really need for twi to be good to the point that you have to make us out to be liars, or accuse us of greatly exagerating the abuse...or as victims who just want to wallow in self pitty?
Self pity and desire for attention is SO not what this is all about.
om--wake up!!! we KNOW your opinion, we have heard it for the last 3+ years...
THE FRICKING POINT IS....you DON'T NEED to reiterate it every damn time someone is sharing their pain in a way you never experienced....capiche??? ya know, better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.....ymmv....
Those who use the "word" to control (and you two or three or so here know who you are)...
All over the place these same people are admitting to their own lack of willingness to do something (as in when somebody admitted they didn't abundantly share for years) but then turn around and demand that others do something.
Just like in TWI..when TWI leadership demanded things...like...
"homos" be purged from the ranks...then turned around and placed a homosexual pedophile as a branch leader who eventually went to prison for his crimes.
wives submit unto their husbands...then turned around and told those same wives to turn away from their husbands and sleep with the "real" heads...the "leadership".
people give their lives to servitude in "the ministry"...then turned around and refused to serve.
people choose between "natural man" colleges and twi colleges...then turned around and put their own children in "natural man" colleges.
everthing be kept "in house" and that no man take a brother before a "natural man" court or laws...then turned around and used those very courts and laws against people.
Maybe this post should have gone on the what is way brain thread...
It IS about someone taking something that should have been good , wholesom, a means of getting to know God and live a life that was pleasing to him.....and instead using it to manipulate us into untenable situations.
Oldies, I am talking about men women and children...we were forced to completely bury our true selves, our true desires, comply with at times unendurable situations by the brandishing the scriptures.
It isn`t a guy or girl or a victim thing ...it is about being damn mad about the *WORD* being USED to control!
How about the verses where it talks about when you're married, your body is no longer your own? So even if your ....ed at your spouse, they can do to you what they want. After all, its their body now.
Female leadership taught married women to use sex to manipulate their husbands. There is no scriptural basis for this, but VPW did say the way to a man's heart was through something below the stomach.
Both men and women in leadership positions counselled wives if the men were abusive, it was because the woman wasn't a Proverbs style wife.
They took verses about men being the head and taught the practical application was control, the men were to control the wives. I wasn't allowed to invite anyone in or out of TWI into my home without first calling my husband at work to get his "blessing". If they showed up unexpectedly, I was to leave them on the front portch until I reached him. The leadership knew this was what my husband decided and they backed him up on it.
I was spit on, shoved, verbally abused, had things thrown at me - leadership knew it all. Yet, I couldn't call them for help without getting his permission first. If I did, I got reproved.
Now, for Oldiesman, I will show the other side.
I know now, though it has taken me a while to figure it out beyond a doubt, my ex would have been abusive in or out of TWI. That he was abusive is his fault. That they exacerbated the problem and prevented him from getting help (worldly counsellors not being believers and all) is TWI's fault.
I also know now, I allowed it to happen. I played a role in the "dance". However, I would never have played the role as well or as long, if my heart had not been so invested in God. I believed what they taught was God's instruction to us. I put up with it because I thought I was doing "The Word". This is very much TWI's fault, because they are the ones who taught me that.
Was I gullible for believing it? Perhaps. But it doesn't lessen their responsibility. And to be sure, I am not so gullible anymore, I have taken responsibility for my part. Question is, will they ever own up to their part?
Not likely.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
one of my biggest fears here.... being thought of as a poor little victim or the patron saint of sexual abuse (ha ha ha ha ha that one still cracks me up)
it's hard to explain
ya feel small, like total crap and then people think, you know, you're trying to call attention to yourself
Actually I think it's not the Word of God that controls people, but rather (men's interpretation of) the bible. If God's Word is pure and wholesome, it does not "control" anyone.
"i don't deny anyone their good godly happenings in twi. i had many of them
but i had lots of bad stuff happen that i bought into (in my young already bruised self)
i hate the "either" "or" position although i might be a hypocrite because maybe oldies isn't taking the either or thing either"
Here's my test, would I want my kids involved? No f'ing way!
Yeah, I had some good experiences in TWI, very good. I even learned some valuable things from TWI. But the cost was way too high and I'm not talking about the money.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
Tom, so then I should just be quiet when somebody says "we complied through fear ... " etc.? It's not a true statement from my viewpoint and doesn't apply to me
I know what you're trying to say Oldies, but the statement "we complied through fear ... " isn't being given through your viewpoint, but another's...so how can you even have an opinion on it? The poster is writing about her experience, not yours. Howe can you say that her statement is false? You weren't where she was. Not everyone experienced the same things.
quote:so should I just be quiet? That's what you're asking me to do. I don't want to beat a dead horse, but again state my viewpoint that I think the open exchange of ideas is best for everyone. What happens if, when somebody says something I don't like, I ask them to be quiet?
lol...
Yeah...be quiet :D--> (kidding). Look at the flip side, what if every time you related some incident about something that happened to you, good or bad, somebody chimed in with "that's not my experience", implying that it never happened?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
quote:I know what you're trying to say Oldies, but the statement "we complied through fear ... " isn't being given through your viewpoint, but another's...so how can you even have an opinion on it? The poster is writing about her experience, not yours. Howe can you say that her statement is false? You weren't where she was. Not everyone experienced the same things.
Oaks, had the statement been "I complied through fear", it would have been saying that that person, speaking for herself, complied through fear. By saying "we", it infers that all of us, every one of us, not just that person, complied through fear. That statement does not apply to me, at least not to any great extent, which was why I spoke up.
Perhaps if folks would just relay their own experiences and not speak for others, we'd all understand each other better? I don't need folks to try to psycho-analyze what I experienced...I know myself what I experienced.
quote:.... pointing the finger at us and telling us we are whiney victims and we would be JUST fine if we would *get over it*....
Rascal, you have a way about your writing that is very accusatory. As you may recall, I was commenting on Ginger's post about victim mentality and I conferred with her that it existed, then quoted something from Naomi Judd. You're taking this way too far. I'm just expressing an opinion. If there is such a thing as victim mentality and being a wound addict, and it doesn't apply to you, FANTASTIC! I'm very glad.
*I* am taking this way to FAR?????? Me?????....whew...but then again...what CAN you expect from a probably lying...at least overexagerating, completely unthankfull, eternally whining victim who choses to ever wallow in her wounds and never move on ????...........One who doesn`t have the BRAINS to be apreciative of the good that someone ELSE might have gleaned from vpw.???
My GOD why can`t I just be content knowing that our minor discomforts experienced were an acceptable price to pay so that the REST of you could *recievethewordlikeithasntbeenknownsincethefirstcentury*?.
I beg your forgivness for my inapropriate and miserable whining being an annoyance to you friend.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 16, 2004 at 10:48.]
Excathedra...I sure hear you about being afraid of being branded an attention seeking victim....it bothers me whenever I post.
It is very hard to talk about this stuff and then someone points a finger n says...oh you just like wallowing in it...you VICTIM you...everything would be JUST fine if you weren`t such a whiner....God you feel like crap all over again.
Shoot it isn`t about seeking attention or sympathy ...I am determined that nobody will shame me into being quiet again.
quote:It is very hard to talk about this stuff and then someone points a finger n says...oh you just like wallowing in it...you VICTIM you...everything would be JUST fine if you weren`t such a whiner....God you feel like crap all over again.
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oldiesman
On second thought Tom, please keep quiet, ok? Perhaps you should take a break from Greasespot?...I will feel a whole lot better if you do.
lol...
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Tom Strange
nah... nevermind OM... you're missing my point... I never said or inferred that you should be quiet about your experiences... just that I didn't understand why you spoke the way you did, or felt the need to speak about other people's experiences...
if you just said "I never saw that or experienced that", that would be different, but you take it further to the point of inferring doubt and inferring that folks should just get over it... whatever it is...
that's all... and that's a lot different than saying "hey OM, you can't talk"... you just dont' get it, you haven't here and haven't on other threads... so, you've said your piece, I've said mine... let's have a cervesa...
... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
[This message was edited by Tom Strange on January 15, 2004 at 18:09.]
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rascal
Oldies, you said that *it`s not a true statement* from your point of view....that is just a sneaky way of saying that because you didn`t experience the same ... what we said was a lie....real slick.
It DID happen...it IS truth...whether you ever saw or experienced such.
It WOULD be possible for you to say your piece about what you experienced without calling us liars...you COULD also state your position without minimalising the abuses some of us endured ...without trying to shut us up .... pointing the finger at us and telling us we are whiney victims and we would be JUST fine if we would *get over it*....
But you don`t .... Are you doing it on purpose?
You seem to want to preserve the believe that it was a Godly organisation to the point of calling we who saw the satanic influence liars.
ie ... evil couldn`t coexist with the good there for we must be mistaken in what we percieved our experiences to be eh?
Do you really need for twi to be good to the point that you have to make us out to be liars, or accuse us of greatly exagerating the abuse...or as victims who just want to wallow in self pitty?
Self pity and desire for attention is SO not what this is all about.
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alfakat
om--wake up!!! we KNOW your opinion, we have heard it for the last 3+ years...
THE FRICKING POINT IS....you DON'T NEED to reiterate it every damn time someone is sharing their pain in a way you never experienced....capiche??? ya know, better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt.....ymmv....
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excathedra
alfie how are ya ?
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CoolWaters
Those who use the "word" to control (and you two or three or so here know who you are)...
All over the place these same people are admitting to their own lack of willingness to do something (as in when somebody admitted they didn't abundantly share for years) but then turn around and demand that others do something.
Just like in TWI..when TWI leadership demanded things...like...
Maybe this post should have gone on the what is way brain thread...
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alfakat
hey, excie, doin fine...was thinking of using the old "I command you to wake up" trick from that guy Evan's employee used to work for....
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rascal
It IS about someone taking something that should have been good , wholesom, a means of getting to know God and live a life that was pleasing to him.....and instead using it to manipulate us into untenable situations.
Oldies, I am talking about men women and children...we were forced to completely bury our true selves, our true desires, comply with at times unendurable situations by the brandishing the scriptures.
It isn`t a guy or girl or a victim thing ...it is about being damn mad about the *WORD* being USED to control!
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CoolWaters
Well said, rascal.
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excathedra
alf
you're too much !as far as the subject of using "god's word" for what you wanna get outta people, i don't feel like talking about it....
but i appreciate those who are talking
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Abigail
Ok Exie, you want others to talk? I'll talk.
How about the verses where it talks about when you're married, your body is no longer your own? So even if your ....ed at your spouse, they can do to you what they want. After all, its their body now.
Female leadership taught married women to use sex to manipulate their husbands. There is no scriptural basis for this, but VPW did say the way to a man's heart was through something below the stomach.
Both men and women in leadership positions counselled wives if the men were abusive, it was because the woman wasn't a Proverbs style wife.
They took verses about men being the head and taught the practical application was control, the men were to control the wives. I wasn't allowed to invite anyone in or out of TWI into my home without first calling my husband at work to get his "blessing". If they showed up unexpectedly, I was to leave them on the front portch until I reached him. The leadership knew this was what my husband decided and they backed him up on it.
I was spit on, shoved, verbally abused, had things thrown at me - leadership knew it all. Yet, I couldn't call them for help without getting his permission first. If I did, I got reproved.
Now, for Oldiesman, I will show the other side.
I know now, though it has taken me a while to figure it out beyond a doubt, my ex would have been abusive in or out of TWI. That he was abusive is his fault. That they exacerbated the problem and prevented him from getting help (worldly counsellors not being believers and all) is TWI's fault.
I also know now, I allowed it to happen. I played a role in the "dance". However, I would never have played the role as well or as long, if my heart had not been so invested in God. I believed what they taught was God's instruction to us. I put up with it because I thought I was doing "The Word". This is very much TWI's fault, because they are the ones who taught me that.
Was I gullible for believing it? Perhaps. But it doesn't lessen their responsibility. And to be sure, I am not so gullible anymore, I have taken responsibility for my part. Question is, will they ever own up to their part?
Not likely.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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excathedra
thank you ab
see here's the thing
i don't deny anyone their good godly happenings in twi. i had many of them
but i had lots of bad stuff happen that i bought into (in my young already bruised self)
so i talk about it....
i hate the "either" "or" position although i might be a hypocrite because maybe oldies isn't taking the either or thing either
just don't deny me my life's experiences and they are not warped. what i experienced with the wierwille mangod happened plain and simple
was i stupid ? OF COURSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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excathedra
dear oldies, sorry for talking "about" you, i should talk "to" you
it's just hard for me
working on it....
okay ?
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excathedra
post post post script
to no one in particular
one of my biggest fears here.... being thought of as a poor little victim or the patron saint of sexual abuse (ha ha ha ha ha that one still cracks me up)
it's hard to explain
ya feel small, like total crap and then people think, you know, you're trying to call attention to yourself
it sucks
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CKnapp3
Actually I think it's not the Word of God that controls people, but rather (men's interpretation of) the bible. If God's Word is pure and wholesome, it does not "control" anyone.
I don't need no stinkin' crown!
Chuck
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Abigail
"i don't deny anyone their good godly happenings in twi. i had many of them
but i had lots of bad stuff happen that i bought into (in my young already bruised self)
i hate the "either" "or" position although i might be a hypocrite because maybe oldies isn't taking the either or thing either"
Here's my test, would I want my kids involved? No f'ing way!
Yeah, I had some good experiences in TWI, very good. I even learned some valuable things from TWI. But the cost was way too high and I'm not talking about the money.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Oakspear
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Oakspear
Anarchists unite!
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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oldiesman
Oaks, had the statement been "I complied through fear", it would have been saying that that person, speaking for herself, complied through fear. By saying "we", it infers that all of us, every one of us, not just that person, complied through fear. That statement does not apply to me, at least not to any great extent, which was why I spoke up.
Perhaps if folks would just relay their own experiences and not speak for others, we'd all understand each other better? I don't need folks to try to psycho-analyze what I experienced...I know myself what I experienced.
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oldiesman
Rascal, you have a way about your writing that is very accusatory. As you may recall, I was commenting on Ginger's post about victim mentality and I conferred with her that it existed, then quoted something from Naomi Judd. You're taking this way too far. I'm just expressing an opinion. If there is such a thing as victim mentality and being a wound addict, and it doesn't apply to you, FANTASTIC! I'm very glad.
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rascal
*I* am taking this way to FAR?????? Me?????....whew...but then again...what CAN you expect from a probably lying...at least overexagerating, completely unthankfull, eternally whining victim who choses to ever wallow in her wounds and never move on ????...........One who doesn`t have the BRAINS to be apreciative of the good that someone ELSE might have gleaned from vpw.???
My GOD why can`t I just be content knowing that our minor discomforts experienced were an acceptable price to pay so that the REST of you could *recievethewordlikeithasntbeenknownsincethefirstcentury*?.
I beg your forgivness for my inapropriate and miserable whining being an annoyance to you friend.
[This message was edited by rascal on January 16, 2004 at 10:48.]
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rascal
Excathedra...I sure hear you about being afraid of being branded an attention seeking victim....it bothers me whenever I post.
It is very hard to talk about this stuff and then someone points a finger n says...oh you just like wallowing in it...you VICTIM you...everything would be JUST fine if you weren`t such a whiner....God you feel like crap all over again.
Shoot it isn`t about seeking attention or sympathy ...I am determined that nobody will shame me into being quiet again.
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Tom Strange
OM:
Perhaps if you would just relay your experience and not pass judgement on other's experience...Then please quit doing that to everyone else (who shares an experience you didn't) on this thread...... I've been here and I've been there and I've been in between...
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oldiesman
Yes, you're taking this too far...
Do you have a Type A personality?
Relax...
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