Any "group" has a level of group think. Boundries, rules, mottos, creeds, by laws, ummm... CES is NOT way lite. If you're looking for the perfect group dream on.
HEY... here's an idea... start your own!
I am surprised about the "marriage" thing. Sounds real twi ish and I hope that mentality is an isolated incident. CES has helped 100's, 1000's of ex wayers over the last 18 ish years and without obligation or money being extorted. I do wish them well.
Difference is, I don't walk around calling myself "reverend" the way someone walked around calling himself "doctor." I don't pretend to be ordained the way he pretended to be a researcher.
Why are you befuddled?
---
I see you edited your post.
I do not perform weddings as a "goof."
I got the ordination as a goof. A close friend asked me to perform her wedding, I said I couldn't because of the ordination issue, and did a little research into it. I found out that getting ordained is, in the eyes of the law, remarkably easy. I checked it out and, sure enough, was ordained within 10 minutes. I thought it was funny.
Months after telling that story, two other friends were getting married and asked me to perform the ceremony. After a long discussion weighing why they would want such a thing, I agreed. I was honored to do it. But the decision was not made lightly.
I used the word "floored" once, in a whole different context. I was floored at hearing that it was a top CES person who told Georgio marriage was only for Christians. I'm still floored by that. And no, I do not support it. Non-Christians can marry. There's nothing uniquely Christian about marriage.
As far as I am aware, there is no list of qualifications to perform a wedding ceremony in the Bible. A city clerk can do it. A justice of the peace can do it. Not too far from wear I'm working, you can do it at a drive thru. And it's legal. If someone wants me to perform a wedding, I will make sure they understand the nature of my legal qualification to do so, and let them decide whether it's what they really want. If it is, so be it.
quote:Before I check my pt, I want ya to know I respect your words.
Well, it hasn't seemed like it over the last couple of days, but I'll take your word for it.
I think I remember a teaching given (by John Lynn, *I think*) while I was involved with CES a few years back, that marriages was designed for those who believed God/were believers/Christians, but it was done from a doctrinal stance supposedly showing that 'true godly believers' were the ones for whom marriage worked out the best for, yadayada.
Yeah, and they have found the holy grail too. -->
Since there has been so relatively few really successful marriages over the centuries, and since the ones that are/were have crossed so many religious/social boundaries, it puts more holes in that teaching than would sink the Titanic.
'Nuff said.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
I think it's one thing to say that God designed marriage and, as such, marriage in theory should work best for those who are closest to God.
It's quite another thing to say marriage is only for God's people, not for anyone else. Even in the Genesis account, Cain took a wife. God did not seem to discourage this activity.
Good point about Cain. Thanks for being a rational voice in several discussions. I haven't disagreed with you yet but think we could still have a decent exchange of ideas if I did. Glad you're here.
I have some involvement in CES and some in CFF. I don't have any in CBC. Just for the record, while I was with CFF there was a clique, so to speak, of higher echelon believers you had to please. They did not force anything on anybody but some of them did quite frankly try to take over independent fellowships. CES is different. I have spoken with John Lynn, Mark Graeser, and John Schoenheit off and on since 1988 while I was still in the Way. They never once pressured anything or asked anything. They were pretty up front and honest. Sometimes too honest. Nothing behind your back. I learned to trust them. My wife and I are kind of looking forward to some fellowshipping with them. We plan to look into it after the New Year. I am sure they have their opinions and doctrines like everybody else. The difference was the lack of smugness, the lack of legalism, and the free will to be called upon or left alone. It is unfair to put CES on the same level as TWI. CES has them beat hands down. And I am not even trying to promote them. I am sure there are even churches out there just like CES that are quite refreshing.
Yeah I have to second what Marked and Avoided said. There is a church just several blocks away from me that I thought looked rather intriguing. It's a "Christadelphia Church"
I did a quick search on the internet and found a couple similiarities. Non trinitarians. They have home fellowships, in fact, this little church was one of the few real buildings they had in this country it seems. They mostly operated through home fellowships. (I think they started in England)
Now ya gotta remember, this was several years ago when I was still struggling a LOT with Waybrain, and I was searching for something similar to the Way.
I remember calling JL (I had attended a couple of CES functions) and asking him if he knew about them. He said yeah, and he said they have some questionable doctrine, they don't believe in the devil, for one. They think all evil is a result of man or something. But he told me whether or not I go is my decision, if I want to check it out, then check it out.
Well, I did some more checking on that little church, I decided not too go. But I thought his response was refreshing. Gee, he's actually encouraging me to use my own brain on this? I was almost taken aback. I didn't even think I knew how to anymore!
Garth said "Since there has been so relatively few really successful marriages over the centuries, and since the ones that are/were have crossed so many religious/social boundaries, it puts more holes in that teaching than would sink the Titanic."
Garth man, please elaborate. Could you be projecting the divorce & non-marriage trends of today onto yesteryear. Or is the key your understanding of "really successful"?
My marriage of 22 years, though not without problems, is really successful. I would venture that something approaching half the posters here would testify likewise. Okay, wild guess.
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Al Poole
Any "group" has a level of group think. Boundries, rules, mottos, creeds, by laws, ummm... CES is NOT way lite. If you're looking for the perfect group dream on.
HEY... here's an idea... start your own!
I am surprised about the "marriage" thing. Sounds real twi ish and I hope that mentality is an isolated incident. CES has helped 100's, 1000's of ex wayers over the last 18 ish years and without obligation or money being extorted. I do wish them well.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
oh my, my thoughts take me to pikes peak...
the similarity of it all befuddles me & especially to perform weddings as a goof...
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wyteduv58
I was also at that meeting at the ROA, I was appalled and I
wondered if they got that guy back and if he went wow.
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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Raf
STRS,
Actually, I was going to make the same joke.
Difference is, I don't walk around calling myself "reverend" the way someone walked around calling himself "doctor." I don't pretend to be ordained the way he pretended to be a researcher.
Why are you befuddled?
---
I see you edited your post.
I do not perform weddings as a "goof."
I got the ordination as a goof. A close friend asked me to perform her wedding, I said I couldn't because of the ordination issue, and did a little research into it. I found out that getting ordained is, in the eyes of the law, remarkably easy. I checked it out and, sure enough, was ordained within 10 minutes. I thought it was funny.
Months after telling that story, two other friends were getting married and asked me to perform the ceremony. After a long discussion weighing why they would want such a thing, I agreed. I was honored to do it. But the decision was not made lightly.
And I don't care whether you approve or not.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I don't think it's a joke
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Raf
Weren't you walking away from this thread?
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
walking away and walked away are two different things with many meanings...
one wedding so far eh
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Raf
Sounds like TWI doubletalk to me.
pthpthpthpth!
Sorry, I misspelled that. I meant to say, check your pt, check your pt.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I Give...
BUT what befuddles me, again, is that you were floored by something you had no clue, but yet support such a thing...
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Sir,
Before I check my pt, I want ya to know I respect your words.
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Raf
I used the word "floored" once, in a whole different context. I was floored at hearing that it was a top CES person who told Georgio marriage was only for Christians. I'm still floored by that. And no, I do not support it. Non-Christians can marry. There's nothing uniquely Christian about marriage.
As far as I am aware, there is no list of qualifications to perform a wedding ceremony in the Bible. A city clerk can do it. A justice of the peace can do it. Not too far from wear I'm working, you can do it at a drive thru. And it's legal. If someone wants me to perform a wedding, I will make sure they understand the nature of my legal qualification to do so, and let them decide whether it's what they really want. If it is, so be it.
Well, it hasn't seemed like it over the last couple of days, but I'll take your word for it.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
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GarthP2000
I think I remember a teaching given (by John Lynn, *I think*) while I was involved with CES a few years back, that marriages was designed for those who believed God/were believers/Christians, but it was done from a doctrinal stance supposedly showing that 'true godly believers' were the ones for whom marriage worked out the best for, yadayada.
Yeah, and they have found the holy grail too.
-->
Since there has been so relatively few really successful marriages over the centuries, and since the ones that are/were have crossed so many religious/social boundaries, it puts more holes in that teaching than would sink the Titanic.
'Nuff said.
My own secret sign-off ====v,
Rational logic cannot have blind faith as one of its foundations.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Raf
I think it's one thing to say that God designed marriage and, as such, marriage in theory should work best for those who are closest to God.
It's quite another thing to say marriage is only for God's people, not for anyone else. Even in the Genesis account, Cain took a wife. God did not seem to discourage this activity.
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excathedra
georgio jessio, that would have really hurt my feelings
?
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JustThinking
Rafael,
Good point about Cain. Thanks for being a rational voice in several discussions. I haven't disagreed with you yet but think we could still have a decent exchange of ideas if I did. Glad you're here.
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Raf
The day is young.
:)-->
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JustThinking
R,
:-) I guess we could go for sports teams, politics, etc.
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MarkedAndAvoided
I have some involvement in CES and some in CFF. I don't have any in CBC. Just for the record, while I was with CFF there was a clique, so to speak, of higher echelon believers you had to please. They did not force anything on anybody but some of them did quite frankly try to take over independent fellowships. CES is different. I have spoken with John Lynn, Mark Graeser, and John Schoenheit off and on since 1988 while I was still in the Way. They never once pressured anything or asked anything. They were pretty up front and honest. Sometimes too honest. Nothing behind your back. I learned to trust them. My wife and I are kind of looking forward to some fellowshipping with them. We plan to look into it after the New Year. I am sure they have their opinions and doctrines like everybody else. The difference was the lack of smugness, the lack of legalism, and the free will to be called upon or left alone. It is unfair to put CES on the same level as TWI. CES has them beat hands down. And I am not even trying to promote them. I am sure there are even churches out there just like CES that are quite refreshing.
Marked and Avoided
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah I have to second what Marked and Avoided said. There is a church just several blocks away from me that I thought looked rather intriguing. It's a "Christadelphia Church"
I did a quick search on the internet and found a couple similiarities. Non trinitarians. They have home fellowships, in fact, this little church was one of the few real buildings they had in this country it seems. They mostly operated through home fellowships. (I think they started in England)
Now ya gotta remember, this was several years ago when I was still struggling a LOT with Waybrain, and I was searching for something similar to the Way.
I remember calling JL (I had attended a couple of CES functions) and asking him if he knew about them. He said yeah, and he said they have some questionable doctrine, they don't believe in the devil, for one. They think all evil is a result of man or something. But he told me whether or not I go is my decision, if I want to check it out, then check it out.
Well, I did some more checking on that little church, I decided not too go. But I thought his response was refreshing. Gee, he's actually encouraging me to use my own brain on this? I was almost taken aback. I didn't even think I knew how to anymore!
GRRRL POWER!
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TheEvan
Garth said "Since there has been so relatively few really successful marriages over the centuries, and since the ones that are/were have crossed so many religious/social boundaries, it puts more holes in that teaching than would sink the Titanic."
Garth man, please elaborate. Could you be projecting the divorce & non-marriage trends of today onto yesteryear. Or is the key your understanding of "really successful"?
My marriage of 22 years, though not without problems, is really successful. I would venture that something approaching half the posters here would testify likewise. Okay, wild guess.
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farout
Spirit and Truth Fellowship International sounds like an expanded version of The Way International.
Truth fellowship sounds like twig fellowship.
International is a dead give away that it is an offspring of twi.
"Going to fellowship" and "Going to International Headquarters" jargon is around the old curve.
"International Outreach" and a "Bible over the Continents" coming out of that camp next?
I would think that a ministry or church should have a name that is identifying and seling. My favorite local church name is -
Everybodys Tabernacle.
CES was original and unique.
STFI is pedaling backwards.
I didn't write the book!
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Ginger Tea
I really enjoyed that post!
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Al Poole
Yea*....
*t really does smack of tw* * just can't *elp *t.
"everybody's fellows**p" l*ke *t!
We *ave a "Regular Bapt*st C*urc*" * l*ke t*at!
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