I don't have a problem with CES either. (I don't think I'll get the hang of their new name) They helped me get over some of my wayfer thinking.
The only reason I'm not an active participant is pretty much the same reason as for all Ex-Twi groups. I just don't care to be involved in a group that revolves itself around classes anymore.
I've met some nice people in CES but I simply can't be jetting all over the country to attend their meetings.
If I ever get involved in a church again it would be something local, more social, and much less intense.
I guess I'm still looking for something out of Mayberry and the "All Souls" church that Andy attended.
I suppose the name change (whether you like the new one or not) is ok if they feel it's important. However, I have to wonder if anyone else cares.
True story:
A long time ago, there was a church up the street from me that split over some religious difference. Well, to make sure everyone knew they had a difference of opinion, one added "reformed" to their name. The other church not to be outdone hung a smaller sign underneath theirs that added "Reformed Evangelical." The other group then added a sign under theirs and so on. By the time they were done, each had FOUR signs "adding" new light on what they believed. Just to one up the other guy! We used to laugh at it every day on the way to work. Sometimes it can be just much ado about nothing.
Christian Educational Services actually seemed kind of normal sounding to me. This sounds too close to TWI thinking for me. (Spirit and Truth?) Maybe I'm being paranoid but it will move them to the bottom of the list of where I look after leaving TWI.
Mayberry's church was the "All souls" church. lol. Bit of Mayberry trivia for you there.
JT: that's a funny story.
CES's new name does sound like something from a church name generator. "All -souls -sacred blood- of -the -lamb -holy -ghost- power...good grief this could be neverending.
HEY, this reminds me that story about that guy who was going to commit suicide, and he said "God, if you don't want me to do this, give me a sign!" At that moment the phone rang and the caller ID said "Almighty God."
The guy was afraid to answer, but the next day called the number on the ID. It turns out it was a pastor from "Almighty God Tabernacle." The pastor realized he had called a wrong number when he was calling his wife the night before.
That is so funny! Your story reminds me of the time when my husband and I wanted to do something for Easter weekend but didn't have reservations anywhere so we just started to drive north and east and somehow ended up in Toledo. Just as we were entering the city, we saw a big sign on a building that read "HOLY GHOST HEADQUARTERS." We were laughing so hard...so glad we know where that is now!
As far as organizations go, you must have some order and rule, even a method of giving. For myself and my family, we like independence and being tangentially interconnected to various believers and groups, since we do not see a Way Tree in the Bible.
Spirit and Truth Fellowship International can be truncated. First, they can drop International. Then replace Spirit with God (because God is Spirit), replace Truth with Way (For I am the Way, the Truth and the Life) and Fellowship with People. Thus, the church name generator outputs "God's Way People". Sing it, Claudette!
I have to second Raf's sentiments. I've never heard the marriage is only for Christians thing, and I've never been sent any form to sign to be a "fellowship coordinator."
Here where we live, there is "no pressure" as Raf said. We are involved in a church, and receive CES materials, and well as things from "other ministries." I like what CES is doing, and the people involved, but I live rather far away from most functions.
Occasionally, we do something here in my neck of the woods, and it has always been a "blessing." I don't really have an opinion as far as the name change goes. Sounds ok to me.
I love what CES has done to correct the error of waythink. I'm grateful for that.
JT: How thoughtful! I love it! But I don't know what an "El Shaddai" is. I'm kind of a duhhead. Which is why I was never good in the Way classes.
WaterB: That is just priceless. Too bad you didn't take a picture of it. I love some of those small towns along the bible belt too. "Jesus lives in Dayton County!" or whatever. You would never see a sign like that out here.
STFI is funny. Figures Steve would be the one who would notice what he noticed. ;)-->
Yeah ex10 your right about them correcting the error of "Way walk" because they were the ONLY ones I would listen too, and even then it took awhile. Out here in Chicagoland they totally dis CES.
Sometimes I wonder if they're so bullheaded out here because they want to be the ones in charge out here. Which is foolish. This area is a lost cause as far as any impact the offshoots are making. It's the same ole people, same ole same ole. Yawn.
I know the local offshoot "pastor" even wrote his own book, called something like "One God, the unfinished Reformation" Or something like that.
I felt like asking him why he just didn't buy a copy of CES's book instead. Could have saved him the trouble. That's why I think it's more a power struggle and they really don't have peoples best interests in mind.
Well, I corespond with CES myself, and I purchase materials from them. Love them or hate them, at least they don't tell you you're gonna be a greasespot by midnight if you part ways with them. I think they do leave room for an individual's personal level of faith. I personally would have second thoughts about getting into Momentus myself, though I have heard both pro and con about the seminar. Other than that, I continue to check in from time to time, and I still recieve The Sower and have considered another subscription to their magazine The Contender. I wish them Godspeed in their quests.
Well first of all I AM a Christian whether CES says so or not. And indeed I was told by one of their founding members, who I have known for over 20 years, that marriage is for Christians only. If they are using this as a reason to not do my wedding , they are telling me they doubt my Christianity. That seriously ticked me off. How arrogant can you be?
I know I'm not a member and haven't taken their classes. But until that moment I respected that man as a man of God, even through his seriously weak times and poor human and spiritual performances towards his end of TWI1. He was vital in helping me see the light and get out of TWI. Now I'm not a Christian? Screw you buddy, I stood by you through it all and you turn your back on me for the biggest day of my life? I would have accepted any reason for him to not do my wedding, but the reason given was CULTish BS. Will the real me walk away? Yes!
And the new name is so awkward, I think it's lame. Why even use the words "International" and "Fellowship"? Sound familiar? What was wrong with the old name? Not to mention I don't want to be part of a church that can be pronounced "stiffy". I was already in a cult where the stiffy made the rules. no thanks.
But other than that I'm a happy, not bitter and Christian!
STFU---Now that reminds me of a story, a true one, actually. Some of you might have even been present when this went down: Rock of Ages, just before LCM cancelled the WOW program. There was a meeting held in the Living Room Tent for Twig Coordinators and persons interested in becoming one. LCM, Howard, and several big wigs were seated in wing chairs on the stage. There were teachings and "sharings" and, at the end, people were encouraged to line up at a microphone set up near the stage to share their thoughts on Twig Coordination. Quite a line formed and several folks got up and proceeded to kiss butt big time, telling LCM and the BOT how blessed they were to be leading God's people in such a wonderful mininstry, and "God Bless Rev. Martindale and the BOT", etc... --> A few had some simple and rather innocuous questions about the logistics of submitting certain forms, etc.
Then this one WOW came to the mike. He was wearing one of the arm bands they use to give to people who were committed to going WOW for the upcoming year. He got about six or seven words out of his mouth---something like, "We need to...(do such in such)". I didn't even understand the last couple of words, because LCM reared up and shouted into his mike, "SHUT THE FU#K UP!" An audible gasp rippled through the room. Then Craig went on to tell this guy that it was NOT this guy's place to say what "We needed to do"---it was his (Craig's) and the BOT's. Then he said a couple of other things that I don't quite remember. The room was so silent for a couple of seconds, you could hear a pin drop. But then the humiliated WOW recovered from his shock and got MAD! He tore off that arm band, threw it on the ground and stormed out of the tent. By now, waves of whispers and gasps were rippling throughout the room. People were honestly in total shock, because this whole scene just came out of nowhere. To say that this incident sent me into a spiritual and emotional tailspin, would be to put it lightly.
LCM motioned for John Reynolds (I think it was him) to go after this guy. Then LCM turned to address the room, which I'm sure he could see was still shell shocked. First, he apologized for his choice of language ("because there were children in the room"). Then he went on to elaborate upon why he had been totally right to shut this guy down. Needless to say, the meeting ended pretty soon after this.
This incident set off the single loudest alarm bell I had yet heard to ring through my head about the "rightness" of my involvement in The Way. Yet, it was several years later, before I got up the courage to actually leave.
So what does that have to do with CES's new name? Well, STFU could easily come to stand for "Shut The Fu#k up!" Any group---particularly a TWI offshoot---that operates under a format remotely resembling that of TWI's has my caution bells vibrating, if not ringing outright.
well raf, I've always agreed with you on most things but this name change just rings too weird and too close to what twi was and became. It does have warning bells on it.
Nothing personal to you, of course.
Also, another thing is because you haven't experienced what someone else has does not mean it isn't true. Does that sound familiar? Just think about it.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
I have to say that I am astonished at your account. Absolutely floored.
Vickles,
I'm afraid you have the wrong impression: I never said I liked the name change. In fact, it means very little to me. Someone else asked "why change the name at all?" The reason they gave is that they wanted it to be clear in the name that they were a "church," and "Christian Educational Services" doesn't convey that message.
Also, vick, I'm not saying that these things have not happened. I specifically said maybe I haven't heard of them because my involvement in CES is relatively light. If I were more closely allied with them, they might "require" more of me. Your note of caution is appreciated.
I don't have a problem with the name change. And I don't think it connotes cult.
I don't agree with everything CES teaches and promotes, but I like most of the material CES produces and teaches.
And I highly recommend to any ex-twi'ers to check out CES books and taped teachings, as they helped me become less "waybrained".
They have some excellent teachings correcting many of TWI's erroneous doctrines.
That being said, I've never thought CES should have fellowships exclusively under their group.
I prefer them to be what they started out as, a Christian educator.
To me Churches, independent fellowships, and home groups associated with Churches offer wonderful fellowship.
But sometimes these groups focus more on milky doctrines. To me thats where CES can play a role in supplementing a fellowship by teaching more meaty doctrines of the Word, by being a Christian educator.
Marriage is just for Christians? I don't recall ever hearing that from anyone at any time.
I won't officiate your wedding unless you join CES? Well, ask Steve! and chinson how I feel about that.
Sign this form if you want to be a fellowship coordinator? They've sent me no such form.
All of this may be because I don't associate myself with CES at the highest involvement level. But I'm surprised to hear a lot of this stuff.
Galen,
Some of the things you cited sound like they are motivated out of a pure heart but can too easily be abused or lead to rampant legalism. I pray CES as an organization (or STFI or whatever) has the integrity to resist the temptation that is certain to come of those efforts.
Is the new name more culty? I'm not really all that comfortable with it yet. Waiting for it to grow on me.
SRTS: If you're going to ask me something, ask me something. If you're going to walk away from the thread, walk away from the thread. Can't have it both ways.
***
R9, are you a Reverend?
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on December 18, 2003 at 16:22.]
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RottieGrrrl
Clunkiness. that's funny Dan.
I don't have a problem with CES either. (I don't think I'll get the hang of their new name) They helped me get over some of my wayfer thinking.
The only reason I'm not an active participant is pretty much the same reason as for all Ex-Twi groups. I just don't care to be involved in a group that revolves itself around classes anymore.
I've met some nice people in CES but I simply can't be jetting all over the country to attend their meetings.
If I ever get involved in a church again it would be something local, more social, and much less intense.
I guess I'm still looking for something out of Mayberry and the "All Souls" church that Andy attended.
GRRRL POWER!
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TheInvisibleDan
Rottiegrrl -
The "Mayberry Church", or the "First Church of Mayberry" - now that's a sure winner!
Danny
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JustThinking
I suppose the name change (whether you like the new one or not) is ok if they feel it's important. However, I have to wonder if anyone else cares.
True story:
A long time ago, there was a church up the street from me that split over some religious difference. Well, to make sure everyone knew they had a difference of opinion, one added "reformed" to their name. The other church not to be outdone hung a smaller sign underneath theirs that added "Reformed Evangelical." The other group then added a sign under theirs and so on. By the time they were done, each had FOUR signs "adding" new light on what they believed. Just to one up the other guy! We used to laugh at it every day on the way to work. Sometimes it can be just much ado about nothing.
Christian Educational Services actually seemed kind of normal sounding to me. This sounds too close to TWI thinking for me. (Spirit and Truth?) Maybe I'm being paranoid but it will move them to the bottom of the list of where I look after leaving TWI.
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RottieGrrrl
Mayberry's church was the "All souls" church. lol. Bit of Mayberry trivia for you there.
JT: that's a funny story.
CES's new name does sound like something from a church name generator. "All -souls -sacred blood- of -the -lamb -holy -ghost- power...good grief this could be neverending.
HEY, this reminds me that story about that guy who was going to commit suicide, and he said "God, if you don't want me to do this, give me a sign!" At that moment the phone rang and the caller ID said "Almighty God."
The guy was afraid to answer, but the next day called the number on the ID. It turns out it was a pastor from "Almighty God Tabernacle." The pastor realized he had called a wrong number when he was calling his wife the night before.
Story isn't true btw, but it's cute.
GRRRL POWER!
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waterbuffalo
Rottie Girl,
That is so funny! Your story reminds me of the time when my husband and I wanted to do something for Easter weekend but didn't have reservations anywhere so we just started to drive north and east and somehow ended up in Toledo. Just as we were entering the city, we saw a big sign on a building that read "HOLY GHOST HEADQUARTERS." We were laughing so hard...so glad we know where that is now!
WB
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JustThinking
Revealed
Omniscient
True
Temple
Is
El Shaddai
Church
What do you think? ROTTIE Church? My Christmas present to you. Now you're home. :-)
(Please don't ding me for Biblical accuracy. A name generator I'm not!)
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BelieversTrumpet
As far as organizations go, you must have some order and rule, even a method of giving. For myself and my family, we like independence and being tangentially interconnected to various believers and groups, since we do not see a Way Tree in the Bible.
Spirit and Truth Fellowship International can be truncated. First, they can drop International. Then replace Spirit with God (because God is Spirit), replace Truth with Way (For I am the Way, the Truth and the Life) and Fellowship with People. Thus, the church name generator outputs "God's Way People". Sing it, Claudette!
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Steve!
STFI reminds me too much of STFU, which stands for "Shut Up". Almost.
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ex10
I have to second Raf's sentiments. I've never heard the marriage is only for Christians thing, and I've never been sent any form to sign to be a "fellowship coordinator."
Here where we live, there is "no pressure" as Raf said. We are involved in a church, and receive CES materials, and well as things from "other ministries." I like what CES is doing, and the people involved, but I live rather far away from most functions.
Occasionally, we do something here in my neck of the woods, and it has always been a "blessing." I don't really have an opinion as far as the name change goes. Sounds ok to me.
I love what CES has done to correct the error of waythink. I'm grateful for that.
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TheInvisibleDan
ST(I)F(F)[Y]
The Bush Kangaroo
(International)
Sounds like SPAM.
I better STFU.
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RottieGrrrl
JT: How thoughtful! I love it! But I don't know what an "El Shaddai" is. I'm kind of a duhhead. Which is why I was never good in the Way classes.
WaterB: That is just priceless. Too bad you didn't take a picture of it. I love some of those small towns along the bible belt too. "Jesus lives in Dayton County!" or whatever. You would never see a sign like that out here.
STFI is funny. Figures Steve would be the one who would notice what he noticed.
;)-->
Yeah ex10 your right about them correcting the error of "Way walk" because they were the ONLY ones I would listen too, and even then it took awhile. Out here in Chicagoland they totally dis CES.
Sometimes I wonder if they're so bullheaded out here because they want to be the ones in charge out here. Which is foolish. This area is a lost cause as far as any impact the offshoots are making. It's the same ole people, same ole same ole. Yawn.
I know the local offshoot "pastor" even wrote his own book, called something like "One God, the unfinished Reformation" Or something like that.
I felt like asking him why he just didn't buy a copy of CES's book instead. Could have saved him the trouble. That's why I think it's more a power struggle and they really don't have peoples best interests in mind.
GRRRL POWER!
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CKnapp3
Well, I corespond with CES myself, and I purchase materials from them. Love them or hate them, at least they don't tell you you're gonna be a greasespot by midnight if you part ways with them. I think they do leave room for an individual's personal level of faith. I personally would have second thoughts about getting into Momentus myself, though I have heard both pro and con about the seminar. Other than that, I continue to check in from time to time, and I still recieve The Sower and have considered another subscription to their magazine The Contender. I wish them Godspeed in their quests.
Chuck
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George Aar
Why not just call it what it is?
"TWI Lite" - "NOW WITH 20% LESS CONEDEMNATION!"
geo.
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Georgio Jessio
Well first of all I AM a Christian whether CES says so or not. And indeed I was told by one of their founding members, who I have known for over 20 years, that marriage is for Christians only. If they are using this as a reason to not do my wedding , they are telling me they doubt my Christianity. That seriously ticked me off. How arrogant can you be?
I know I'm not a member and haven't taken their classes. But until that moment I respected that man as a man of God, even through his seriously weak times and poor human and spiritual performances towards his end of TWI1. He was vital in helping me see the light and get out of TWI. Now I'm not a Christian? Screw you buddy, I stood by you through it all and you turn your back on me for the biggest day of my life? I would have accepted any reason for him to not do my wedding, but the reason given was CULTish BS. Will the real me walk away? Yes!
And the new name is so awkward, I think it's lame. Why even use the words "International" and "Fellowship"? Sound familiar? What was wrong with the old name? Not to mention I don't want to be part of a church that can be pronounced "stiffy". I was already in a cult where the stiffy made the rules. no thanks.
But other than that I'm a happy, not bitter and Christian!
Glow-ry!
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Cherished Child
STFU---Now that reminds me of a story, a true one, actually. Some of you might have even been present when this went down: Rock of Ages, just before LCM cancelled the WOW program. There was a meeting held in the Living Room Tent for Twig Coordinators and persons interested in becoming one. LCM, Howard, and several big wigs were seated in wing chairs on the stage. There were teachings and "sharings" and, at the end, people were encouraged to line up at a microphone set up near the stage to share their thoughts on Twig Coordination. Quite a line formed and several folks got up and proceeded to kiss butt big time, telling LCM and the BOT how blessed they were to be leading God's people in such a wonderful mininstry, and "God Bless Rev. Martindale and the BOT", etc...
--> A few had some simple and rather innocuous questions about the logistics of submitting certain forms, etc.
Then this one WOW came to the mike. He was wearing one of the arm bands they use to give to people who were committed to going WOW for the upcoming year. He got about six or seven words out of his mouth---something like, "We need to...(do such in such)". I didn't even understand the last couple of words, because LCM reared up and shouted into his mike, "SHUT THE FU#K UP!" An audible gasp rippled through the room. Then Craig went on to tell this guy that it was NOT this guy's place to say what "We needed to do"---it was his (Craig's) and the BOT's. Then he said a couple of other things that I don't quite remember. The room was so silent for a couple of seconds, you could hear a pin drop. But then the humiliated WOW recovered from his shock and got MAD! He tore off that arm band, threw it on the ground and stormed out of the tent. By now, waves of whispers and gasps were rippling throughout the room. People were honestly in total shock, because this whole scene just came out of nowhere. To say that this incident sent me into a spiritual and emotional tailspin, would be to put it lightly.
LCM motioned for John Reynolds (I think it was him) to go after this guy. Then LCM turned to address the room, which I'm sure he could see was still shell shocked. First, he apologized for his choice of language ("because there were children in the room"). Then he went on to elaborate upon why he had been totally right to shut this guy down. Needless to say, the meeting ended pretty soon after this.
This incident set off the single loudest alarm bell I had yet heard to ring through my head about the "rightness" of my involvement in The Way. Yet, it was several years later, before I got up the courage to actually leave.
So what does that have to do with CES's new name? Well, STFU could easily come to stand for "Shut The Fu#k up!" Any group---particularly a TWI offshoot---that operates under a format remotely resembling that of TWI's has my caution bells vibrating, if not ringing outright.
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vickles
well raf, I've always agreed with you on most things but this name change just rings too weird and too close to what twi was and became. It does have warning bells on it.
Nothing personal to you, of course.
Also, another thing is because you haven't experienced what someone else has does not mean it isn't true. Does that sound familiar? Just think about it.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Raf
Georgio,
I have to say that I am astonished at your account. Absolutely floored.
Vickles,
I'm afraid you have the wrong impression: I never said I liked the name change. In fact, it means very little to me. Someone else asked "why change the name at all?" The reason they gave is that they wanted it to be clear in the name that they were a "church," and "Christian Educational Services" doesn't convey that message.
Also, vick, I'm not saying that these things have not happened. I specifically said maybe I haven't heard of them because my involvement in CES is relatively light. If I were more closely allied with them, they might "require" more of me. Your note of caution is appreciated.
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vickles
Thanks raf for understanding, wasn't meant for arguing and I'm glad you recognized that.
You are wonderful, as always!!!!!
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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Outin88!
I don't have a problem with the name change. And I don't think it connotes cult.
I don't agree with everything CES teaches and promotes, but I like most of the material CES produces and teaches.
And I highly recommend to any ex-twi'ers to check out CES books and taped teachings, as they helped me become less "waybrained".
They have some excellent teachings correcting many of TWI's erroneous doctrines.
That being said, I've never thought CES should have fellowships exclusively under their group.
I prefer them to be what they started out as, a Christian educator.
To me Churches, independent fellowships, and home groups associated with Churches offer wonderful fellowship.
But sometimes these groups focus more on milky doctrines. To me thats where CES can play a role in supplementing a fellowship by teaching more meaty doctrines of the Word, by being a Christian educator.
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Dot Matrix
C-child
WOW, your story has me all goose bumpy. that poor WOW to be and that EVIL loud mouthed big foreheaded fool!
I am proud of that WOW to be guy! That took some guts. To think of all the times I just slinked away....
Gosh - If you are out there WOW-to-be Please respond! I am so proud of you and so sorry he did that to you!
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Dot Matrix
Hate the new name. Sounds like they think they only have the truth or something.
I do not like CES just like some have their reasons FOR liking it, I have my reasons why I do not like it.
To each his own.
Georgio-
I am sorry that happed to you.
Screw them.
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JustThinking
CC,
I was there during that meeting and have thought about it several times while on this site.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
***
R9, are you a Reverend?
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on December 18, 2003 at 16:22.]
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BelieversTrumpet
There is more potential money and donations in being a certified church than in being a bookstore.
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