BINGO!!, shaz--you nailed it...how come vp couldn't a just pointed to Kenyon, Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, et al, and said "read their stuff, it's great, let's go teach people about God and His Son"???? Why, you ask?? I'll tell you--no adulation and worship in that for vp--nope, none at all...No "just write The Teacher" stuff, no first apostle since the first century malarkey... no "Ladies and gentlemen, the founder and President of The Way International, Inc., DR. Victor Paul Wierwille!!!!" intros, none of that smoke and mirrors baffle a-tall...
I've always said the question of plagiarism falls into two categories.
1. Did Wierwille plagiarize?
2. What difference does it make?
I understand that people harbor a wide variety of responses to the second question. If you really think plagiarism doesn't matter, I'm generally not going to argue the point with you. But to me, the answer to the FIRST question is inescapable. On this subject, I usually only get heated over the answer to the FIRST question because, frankly, anyone who doesn't see Wierwille's plagiarism is simply in denial.
So Oldiesman, if the Kenyon Gospel Publishing folk are content to see their author's work with someone else's byline, that's their business. I don't agree with them in the slightest: I don't think Kenyon would have been happy seeing his EXACT WORDS pilfered by an unscrupulous author whose photographic memory somehow fails to include the name on the book he's reading.
Concepts, yes. Kenyon would be thrilled to know that people are teaching on the difference between believing and mental assent, teaching on spiritual versus sense knowledge, teaching on the believer's power of attorney.
But I've always said "teaching the same thing" is not plagiarism. As Hagin said, if you teach on the new birth, and I teach on the new birth, we are of necessity going to cover the same ground. That's different from plagiarism, of which both Hagin and Wierwille are, in my opinion, guilty.
I understand where you're coming from and agree with what you're saying. VPW did plagiarize some things, there's really no question about it anymore.
But it doesn't bother me. He shouldn't have...but I don't take it personally or hate him for it. I don't feel hate towards VPW.
God will have to make it up to Leonard and others who got ripped off financially. On the other hand since Kenyon's stuff was in the Way bookstore, his ministry probably benefitted some financially from TWI folk like us. Stiles book wasn't there, so he lost out. On the other hand, there wasn't all that much there.
I don't know how Leonard really felt about it, but if he was really teed off at VP for using his material, he probably should have sued. That's what I would have done if I viewed it as that major an offense.
But I think God will make it up to him, at any rate.
Oldies, you don't have to hate docvic(praise be his name), no one is asking you to do that.
It is just very difficult for me to understand why you are clinging to any respect whatsoever for this man, given the voluminous data regarding his plagiarism and the numerous direct testimonies of his philandering and worse activities.
And again, if you go back and read a previous post, it said that BG did NOT copyright his works, therefore he COULD NOT HAVE SUED.
You seem to have this unshakeable idea in your head the docvic(praise be his name) is worthy of worship. It is my opinion that you really need to get over that.
Rascal I think olds meant God will make it up to Leonard if his stuff was stolen which olds admited to .
I will be unpopular now as well but I also do not hate vpw. On this site we have a group of people who want justice done in this day for the wrongs we all have faced. Vengenence is mine said the Lord I have learned to leave vengenence with the Lord.
God asks us to cling to what is good and I try to do that.. Rascal please understand that position doesnt negate your position of speaking out against what you believe needs to be known about Vpw.
I have learned in my life to not make judgements on any testimony I do not know as truth .
Because I do not know it as truth does NOT make it a lie for you understand?
We all do what we need to do in life and I think the best thing is to be honest with our own self and in what or who we answer to in life.
to put Love first means to me the ability to care and be concerned beyond what my own personal experience may be about a matter.
My peace comes from the fact God loves us all, and each one of us is still in the big time learning stage , on a very personal level. what you have learned is not going to be what I have learned in life and vice versa that is why we have different members etc... one doesnt lessen the other tho. I know my eye ball gets really angry at my nails when they need to get clipped by my hand ya know ? We work together and get the job done . I also can not decide who is the enemy as it is a spirtiual life we lead.
I don't hate VPW. But I used to respect him and his legacy. I no longer do.
He ran a Biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry.
His "research" was largely stolen. His teaching was no better than 90% of pastors I've heard since then. And his fellowship was predatory.
No, I don't hate him. Nor do I "like" him. To the extent that he indirectly led me to a better understanding of and appreciation for God, I'm grateful - TO GOD.
quote:Curiously...just WHY exactly is it God`s responsibility to *make it up* to folks when men steal and hurt in his name? Seriously, I am not asking this in a snotty way...I really want to know why you think this is true...and when can I/we expect recompense?
Rascal, I believe God is Just, and He will enact justice, either in this life or throughout eternity, in His Eternal Kingdom...
I thought I was on the same page as other folks on this, but I guess not...
quote:You seem to have this unshakeable idea in your head the docvic(praise be his name) is worthy of worship. It is my opinion that you really need to get over that.
Steve, some folks have had good experiences with VPW; I am one of them. I will admit to being a VPW-loyalist as a result of the godly experiences that he was a part of concerning my life. But I don't think my attitude is one of worship. Just how are you defining worship? I'll be happy to get over it if I can define it as something I'm doing that's ungodly.
You are on the same page as other folks. Just not ALL other folks.
Have you considered that you can praise God for every positive thing that happened in your life while simultaneously recognizing that VPW dishonestly presented other people's work as his own AND abused his position in the Body for his own perverse lusts (sexual and otherwise)?
But it doesn't bother me. He shouldn't have...but I don't take it personally or hate him for it. I don't feel hate towards VPW.
>>
Your responses (not just the one above)
suggest that there are only two choices
for those acknowledging VPW's plagiarism -
indifference or hatred.
But in reality those (such as myself) who feel that VPW should be held accountable don't "hate
him for it" either. But my principles won't allow me to let it slide since ,after all, he based his "ministry" on the works of someone else. Especially since VPW and TWI are supposed
to be all about "intergrity" and "god's matchless word".
It is frustrating when I encounter peope who
will tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't
even begin to tolerate in a family member, co-worker,or a close friend.
quote: I will admit to being a VPW-loyalist as a result of the godly experiences that he was a part of concerning my life.
Oldies, do you think that God expects this level of loyalty to VPW from you? That because he 'taught the Word' as it were, he should get a 'discount' on being held accountable for his actions, that nobody else would get? -->
"Sunday!! Sunday!! Beginning this weekend! Teach the Word like it hasn't been taught since the 1st Century, and get a 70% off discount coupon on catching hell for playing fast and loose with genuine research principles and showing disrespect towards your sisters-in-Christ! --- Non-transferable to other stores, and coupon expires on 12-31-03. Sales tax may apply. Please allow 2-4 weeks for delivery."
quote:It is frustrating when I encounter peope who will tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in a family member, co-worker,or a close friend.
MegaDittos. :)-->
Oldies, would you tolerate plagiarism and serial adultery from any other minister?
quote: do you think that God expects this level of loyalty to VPW from you? That because he 'taught the Word' as it were, he should get a 'discount' on being held accountable for his actions, that nobody else would get?
"Sunday!! Sunday!! Beginning this weekend! Teach the Word like it hasn't been taught since the 1st Century, and get a 70% off discount coupon on catching hell for playing fast and loose with genuine research principles and showing disrespect towards your sisters-in-Christ! --- Non-transferable to other stores, and coupon expires on 12-31-03. Sales tax may apply. Please allow 2-4 weeks for delivery."
What bothers me is each time it comes up that VP did something VERY wrong. The person who says so is slammed as a ?hater? ?evil? speaking for the father of lies, etc.
Ya know it is okay to pull apart someone?s ministry and look at it without the act of examination being thought of as awful, hateful or ungodly. We were taught in TWI not to speak negatives. But what they did with that was STOPPED us from speaking the truth, or sharing our take on something that was negative. There have been examples of people dying and the family could not discuss it or grieve as it was perceived to be negative. IT was a negative thing that happened, to talk about it is being true to self. So, a person takes a look at the NEGATIVES then all of a sudden they are viewed as negative cause they want to look/talk/discuss/or try to make conclusions about what happened.
We can talk about the evil stuff, we can conclude for ourselves, we can make the perp accountable for his sins, without *us* being evil.
You know why I think this? GOD DOES IT.
If one recognizes that the Bible is God?s book then one must also recognize that when he talks of his followers/leaders he/it lets it ALL hang out to be looked at and examined.
David was a man after God?s own heart. Yet, God allowed us to look at his adulterous and eventually murderous activity. Did David wake up and change his course - YES. So, God who loved him still allowed his AWFUL behavior to be examined and recorded for people all over the world to read for Years and Years and Years. This is the same God who FORGAVE HIM. He could have just left that little period of time with Bathsheba and Uriah unrecorded.
We have Anninas and Saphira. Not only did God strike them down for their activities of lying about money, he ?recorded? it in the same book. He showed us he does not tolerate these things. Also, I bet the believers were talking about it! And ol' Annias and Saphira were dead, and they were being talked about. Heck, I am talking about it right now.
When he says in I Timothy 5:19,20 24, 25
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
Those that are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
Some men?s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later.
Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.
I still think VPW was a false prophet and on Goey's thread in Doctrine he makes some strong points. I do think he had evil intentions, if one wants to extrapolate that to mean I am speaking for the Father of lies in a melodrama, I frankly do not care. It took years away from TWI to have clarity. And I do not think it "clarity" to advocate this kind of thinking: (again my opinion!)
The people who will tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in a family member, co-worker,or a close friend. (Which was a very good point. Thanks Diazbro)
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 13, 2003 at 18:08.]
About M. Scott Peck's work, I found this interesting:
?Since the primary motive of evil is disguise, one of the places evil people are most likely to be found is within the church.? ?Buber, Good and Evil
?Evil was defined as the use of power to destroy the spiritual growth of others for the purpose of defending and preserving the integrity of our own sick selves.?
Dear Dot, I know what you mean about not letting us be negative when something devestating happens, we need to talk about it.
I had a beautiful son that was hit and killed by a car in 1980.
He was only one month shy of his 10th birthday and I was devastated, I needed to talk about it to someone so desparately and because of the way-brained a$$ hole leaders that thought they were councellors my need to talk was snuffed out. I was told to go WOW and then into the corpse. That was supposed to heal me they said. So like good little wayfer I did it and suppressed my grief in front of others, cuz most of them didn't have a brain between all of them, but they were leaders and you don't question leaders, after all they have all the answers don't they? You know what one of them told me? He said my God let my boy die because he might grow up to be a homo or murderer or something worse, so God killed him to save him?
I can remember going out in the woods by myself behind our wow home and screaming at the top of my lungs just to releive the mental anguish I was going thru.
And the Corpse was even worse, trying to act happy all the time when I just wanted to scream at everyone "my son is dead" and you tell me to get over it like he was a dog or something.
When we got back home it was like walking into a nightmare, just seeing our house and neighbors and the "ghost" of my baby.
My mental health took a nose dive, but I still had to keep it in, then just over 2 years ago my little 4 year old grandaughter died after heart surgery. That did it for me. I went into a catatonic state and stayed there for about 3 months.
Thanks to a good "natural man" psyciatrist I've been able to work thru the oain and learn to handle it. Not get over it, that will never happen. You just learn how to handle it.
Now I'm able to help my son try to get his life back togather because I know what he is going thru and he will NOT have to do it alone like I did.
In my opinion any one of those so called counsellors in twi should be prosecuted for all the damage they did to so many of us. Not just me. Alot of people went thru something similar and got the same treatment I got which was nothing.
I just thank my God and my wonderful husband who stuck with me even when leaders told him to divorce me cuz they thought I was nuts.....well duh I wonder why? My hubby stuck with me and made sure I got the help I needed. I'm still going to my "shrink". and probably will for a long time. But I did get myself back when I left twi and even got a sense of humor to boot. I know this is a sad story but its true and I can finally talk about it without feeling guilty for being negative. You keep up the good work and speak your mind. Love ya girl
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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alfakat
BINGO!!, shaz--you nailed it...how come vp couldn't a just pointed to Kenyon, Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, et al, and said "read their stuff, it's great, let's go teach people about God and His Son"???? Why, you ask?? I'll tell you--no adulation and worship in that for vp--nope, none at all...No "just write The Teacher" stuff, no first apostle since the first century malarkey... no "Ladies and gentlemen, the founder and President of The Way International, Inc., DR. Victor Paul Wierwille!!!!" intros, none of that smoke and mirrors baffle a-tall...
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Linda Z
alfa, I'd add, and no money in it, either.
Linda Z
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diazbro
Ookspear said:
Did FCA use the athlete of the spirit as a metaphor for a Christian? Or did they use the popularity of athletes to further the Christian message?
>>
I haven't been active with FCA in at least
15 years so I don't know their current practices
but I remember the following:
FCA uses the medium of athletics to promote
Christ. They are interdenominational and there are no services. On occasion they certainly
have showcased high profile members (like
Tarkenton) to promote the cause. Most always
these people are current or former athletes.
When I was young I had several coaches who
were into FCA and they pointed out that the
best trained athletes had something in common
with JC - focus, perserverance, discipline,
and courage. Of course they advanced the idea
that the christian athlete could experience
a deeper sense of joy via a spiritual relationship with God. Additionally you would
be serving as an example to others.
It could be a drag- having to hear your coach
talk up the bible or making prayer mandatory at
sporting events but over all the message was
positive and I don't recall any of the coaches
getting carried away with it. In fact some could
preach the gospel to you before a game and
half an hour later be cussing you up and down
for dropping a pass.
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alfakat
yeah, Linda, that too---though there could have been a mark-up on others' items..
;)--> 
:D--> 
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Raf
Oldiesman,
I should clarify my response to your last post.
I've always said the question of plagiarism falls into two categories.
1. Did Wierwille plagiarize?
2. What difference does it make?
I understand that people harbor a wide variety of responses to the second question. If you really think plagiarism doesn't matter, I'm generally not going to argue the point with you. But to me, the answer to the FIRST question is inescapable. On this subject, I usually only get heated over the answer to the FIRST question because, frankly, anyone who doesn't see Wierwille's plagiarism is simply in denial.
So Oldiesman, if the Kenyon Gospel Publishing folk are content to see their author's work with someone else's byline, that's their business. I don't agree with them in the slightest: I don't think Kenyon would have been happy seeing his EXACT WORDS pilfered by an unscrupulous author whose photographic memory somehow fails to include the name on the book he's reading.
Concepts, yes. Kenyon would be thrilled to know that people are teaching on the difference between believing and mental assent, teaching on spiritual versus sense knowledge, teaching on the believer's power of attorney.
But I've always said "teaching the same thing" is not plagiarism. As Hagin said, if you teach on the new birth, and I teach on the new birth, we are of necessity going to cover the same ground. That's different from plagiarism, of which both Hagin and Wierwille are, in my opinion, guilty.
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oldiesman
Raf,
I understand where you're coming from and agree with what you're saying. VPW did plagiarize some things, there's really no question about it anymore.
But it doesn't bother me. He shouldn't have...but I don't take it personally or hate him for it. I don't feel hate towards VPW.
God will have to make it up to Leonard and others who got ripped off financially. On the other hand since Kenyon's stuff was in the Way bookstore, his ministry probably benefitted some financially from TWI folk like us. Stiles book wasn't there, so he lost out. On the other hand, there wasn't all that much there.
I don't know how Leonard really felt about it, but if he was really teed off at VP for using his material, he probably should have sued. That's what I would have done if I viewed it as that major an offense.
But I think God will make it up to him, at any rate.
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rascal
You THINK God is going to make it up to him??
Probably just as soon as he makes it up to all of the rest of the folks that were ripped off by their association with vp/twi...
Curiously...just WHY exactly is it God`s responsibility to *make it up* to folks when men steal and hurt in his name?
Seriously, I am not asking this in a snotty way...I really want to know why you think this is true...and when can I/we expect recompense?
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Steve!
Oldies, you don't have to hate docvic(praise be his name), no one is asking you to do that.
It is just very difficult for me to understand why you are clinging to any respect whatsoever for this man, given the voluminous data regarding his plagiarism and the numerous direct testimonies of his philandering and worse activities.
And again, if you go back and read a previous post, it said that BG did NOT copyright his works, therefore he COULD NOT HAVE SUED.
You seem to have this unshakeable idea in your head the docvic(praise be his name) is worthy of worship. It is my opinion that you really need to get over that.
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mj412
Rascal I think olds meant God will make it up to Leonard if his stuff was stolen which olds admited to .
I will be unpopular now as well but I also do not hate vpw. On this site we have a group of people who want justice done in this day for the wrongs we all have faced. Vengenence is mine said the Lord I have learned to leave vengenence with the Lord.
God asks us to cling to what is good and I try to do that.. Rascal please understand that position doesnt negate your position of speaking out against what you believe needs to be known about Vpw.
I have learned in my life to not make judgements on any testimony I do not know as truth .
Because I do not know it as truth does NOT make it a lie for you understand?
We all do what we need to do in life and I think the best thing is to be honest with our own self and in what or who we answer to in life.
to put Love first means to me the ability to care and be concerned beyond what my own personal experience may be about a matter.
My peace comes from the fact God loves us all, and each one of us is still in the big time learning stage , on a very personal level. what you have learned is not going to be what I have learned in life and vice versa that is why we have different members etc... one doesnt lessen the other tho. I know my eye ball gets really angry at my nails when they need to get clipped by my hand ya know ? We work together and get the job done . I also can not decide who is the enemy as it is a spirtiual life we lead.
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Raf
I don't hate VPW. But I used to respect him and his legacy. I no longer do.
He ran a Biblical research, teaching and fellowship ministry.
His "research" was largely stolen. His teaching was no better than 90% of pastors I've heard since then. And his fellowship was predatory.
No, I don't hate him. Nor do I "like" him. To the extent that he indirectly led me to a better understanding of and appreciation for God, I'm grateful - TO GOD.
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oldiesman
Rascal, I believe God is Just, and He will enact justice, either in this life or throughout eternity, in His Eternal Kingdom...
I thought I was on the same page as other folks on this, but I guess not...
Steve, some folks have had good experiences with VPW; I am one of them. I will admit to being a VPW-loyalist as a result of the godly experiences that he was a part of concerning my life. But I don't think my attitude is one of worship. Just how are you defining worship? I'll be happy to get over it if I can define it as something I'm doing that's ungodly.
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Raf
You are on the same page as other folks. Just not ALL other folks.
Have you considered that you can praise God for every positive thing that happened in your life while simultaneously recognizing that VPW dishonestly presented other people's work as his own AND abused his position in the Body for his own perverse lusts (sexual and otherwise)?
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diazbro
oldisesman said:
But it doesn't bother me. He shouldn't have...but I don't take it personally or hate him for it. I don't feel hate towards VPW.
>>
Your responses (not just the one above)
suggest that there are only two choices
for those acknowledging VPW's plagiarism -
indifference or hatred.
But in reality those (such as myself) who feel that VPW should be held accountable don't "hate
him for it" either. But my principles won't allow me to let it slide since ,after all, he based his "ministry" on the works of someone else. Especially since VPW and TWI are supposed
to be all about "intergrity" and "god's matchless word".
It is frustrating when I encounter peope who
will tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't
even begin to tolerate in a family member, co-worker,or a close friend.
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GarthP2000
Oldies, do you think that God expects this level of loyalty to VPW from you? That because he 'taught the Word' as it were, he should get a 'discount' on being held accountable for his actions, that nobody else would get?
-->
"Sunday!! Sunday!! Beginning this weekend! Teach the Word like it hasn't been taught since the 1st Century, and get a 70% off discount coupon on catching hell for playing fast and loose with genuine research principles and showing disrespect towards your sisters-in-Christ! --- Non-transferable to other stores, and coupon expires on 12-31-03. Sales tax may apply. Please allow 2-4 weeks for delivery."
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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Raf
MegaDittos.
:)-->
Oldies, would you tolerate plagiarism and serial adultery from any other minister?
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oldiesman
The questions on this thread are good ones and I'll consider and examine them and how they relate to my thought processes.
Thanks...
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Dot Matrix
Garth, So well stated:
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Dot Matrix
What bothers me is each time it comes up that VP did something VERY wrong. The person who says so is slammed as a ?hater? ?evil? speaking for the father of lies, etc.
Ya know it is okay to pull apart someone?s ministry and look at it without the act of examination being thought of as awful, hateful or ungodly. We were taught in TWI not to speak negatives. But what they did with that was STOPPED us from speaking the truth, or sharing our take on something that was negative. There have been examples of people dying and the family could not discuss it or grieve as it was perceived to be negative. IT was a negative thing that happened, to talk about it is being true to self. So, a person takes a look at the NEGATIVES then all of a sudden they are viewed as negative cause they want to look/talk/discuss/or try to make conclusions about what happened.
We can talk about the evil stuff, we can conclude for ourselves, we can make the perp accountable for his sins, without *us* being evil.
You know why I think this? GOD DOES IT.
If one recognizes that the Bible is God?s book then one must also recognize that when he talks of his followers/leaders he/it lets it ALL hang out to be looked at and examined.
David was a man after God?s own heart. Yet, God allowed us to look at his adulterous and eventually murderous activity. Did David wake up and change his course - YES. So, God who loved him still allowed his AWFUL behavior to be examined and recorded for people all over the world to read for Years and Years and Years. This is the same God who FORGAVE HIM. He could have just left that little period of time with Bathsheba and Uriah unrecorded.
We have Anninas and Saphira. Not only did God strike them down for their activities of lying about money, he ?recorded? it in the same book. He showed us he does not tolerate these things. Also, I bet the believers were talking about it! And ol' Annias and Saphira were dead, and they were being talked about. Heck, I am talking about it right now.
When he says in I Timothy 5:19,20 24, 25
Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses.
Those that are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
Some men?s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later.
Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.
I still think VPW was a false prophet and on Goey's thread in Doctrine he makes some strong points. I do think he had evil intentions, if one wants to extrapolate that to mean I am speaking for the Father of lies in a melodrama, I frankly do not care. It took years away from TWI to have clarity. And I do not think it "clarity" to advocate this kind of thinking: (again my opinion!)
The people who will tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in a family member, co-worker,or a close friend. (Which was a very good point. Thanks Diazbro)
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 13, 2003 at 18:08.]
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Dot Matrix
The People of the lie
About M. Scott Peck's work, I found this interesting:
?Since the primary motive of evil is disguise, one of the places evil people are most likely to be found is within the church.? ?Buber, Good and Evil
?Evil was defined as the use of power to destroy the spiritual growth of others for the purpose of defending and preserving the integrity of our own sick selves.?
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wyteduv58
Dear Dot, I know what you mean about not letting us be negative when something devestating happens, we need to talk about it.
I had a beautiful son that was hit and killed by a car in 1980.
He was only one month shy of his 10th birthday and I was devastated, I needed to talk about it to someone so desparately and because of the way-brained a$$ hole leaders that thought they were councellors my need to talk was snuffed out. I was told to go WOW and then into the corpse. That was supposed to heal me they said. So like good little wayfer I did it and suppressed my grief in front of others, cuz most of them didn't have a brain between all of them, but they were leaders and you don't question leaders, after all they have all the answers don't they? You know what one of them told me? He said my God let my boy die because he might grow up to be a homo or murderer or something worse, so God killed him to save him?
I can remember going out in the woods by myself behind our wow home and screaming at the top of my lungs just to releive the mental anguish I was going thru.
And the Corpse was even worse, trying to act happy all the time when I just wanted to scream at everyone "my son is dead" and you tell me to get over it like he was a dog or something.
When we got back home it was like walking into a nightmare, just seeing our house and neighbors and the "ghost" of my baby.
My mental health took a nose dive, but I still had to keep it in, then just over 2 years ago my little 4 year old grandaughter died after heart surgery. That did it for me. I went into a catatonic state and stayed there for about 3 months.
Thanks to a good "natural man" psyciatrist I've been able to work thru the oain and learn to handle it. Not get over it, that will never happen. You just learn how to handle it.
Now I'm able to help my son try to get his life back togather because I know what he is going thru and he will NOT have to do it alone like I did.
In my opinion any one of those so called counsellors in twi should be prosecuted for all the damage they did to so many of us. Not just me. Alot of people went thru something similar and got the same treatment I got which was nothing.
I just thank my God and my wonderful husband who stuck with me even when leaders told him to divorce me cuz they thought I was nuts.....well duh I wonder why? My hubby stuck with me and made sure I got the help I needed. I'm still going to my "shrink". and probably will for a long time. But I did get myself back when I left twi and even got a sense of humor to boot. I know this is a sad story but its true and I can finally talk about it without feeling guilty for being negative. You keep up the good work and speak your mind. Love ya girl
Dovey....proud owner of two low riders...Dovey's Doxies...... Dovey
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excathedra
darling darling dovey i have no words....
your heart, your life, your soul....
i am so moved and so.... oh god i don't know....
you give me courage to face pain i never thought i could face
i love you
i'm sorry i can't say more.... right now....
ohgod
you are an amazing soul and so is your husband and son
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excathedra
my boy is 9
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excathedra
if ANYONE tells YOU or ME or DOT or ....... that we're NOT ALLOWED to talk about WHATEVER WE FRIKKIN NEED TO
i will do that combustible thing
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excathedra
NO ONE in the way ministry was allowed to GRIEVE ANYTHING
IS THE LOSS OF A CHILD, THE LOSS OF A CHILDHOOD, THE LOSS OF (YOU SAY IT HERE) not important enough to a GOD YOU LOVE AND SERVE
PPPHUUUCCCKKKK ME
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