Proving plagiarism in the United States requires the plaintiff to show that 1) the defendant had access to the earlier work [in the Wierwille/Stiles case, this has already been established - Raf] and 2) the defendant's work bears a "substantial similarity" to the plaintiff's original. It sounds like a legal blur because it is. Different courts have different opinions on what constitutes "substantial similarity." For example, jazz drummer Bernard "Pretty" Purdie filed a copyright-infringement suit against a rapper who lifted a lone cymbal crash from one of Purdie's recordings. He claims that his cymbal crash--a single beat--is so recognizably his that any use of it violates his copyright.
Anytime you quote, summarize or paraphrase, you must acknowledge the original source. Even if you summarize or paraphrase, if you do not directly credit your source through a citation YOU ARE PLAGIARIZING!!!
If you quote a source, you must quote exactly, word for word. Cite the source in the paper with a footnote or parenthetical citation. (See How to Cite Sources.)
Summaries and paraphrasing must also be cited. Cite these exactly as you would a quote. Summaries and paraphrasing are merely condensed versions of someone else's work! You must give them credit for the information.
Simply put, PARAPHRASING is putting an author's work into your own words. Although the information is in your own words, it is still the original author's work. You have merely rephrased it! SUMMARIZING is writing out the main points of someone else's work in your own words. Once again, this is not information which you have created, therefore it is to be cited.
similar to the late 50s/early 60s pop psyschology offerred by authors such as Norman Vincent Peale, Maxwell Maltz, Dale Carnegie, and Earl Nightingale. Some of these guys still have lasting influence even today.
Most of this material was aimed squarely at salesmen and those in a position to deal with the public. My dad had books and records by all of the authors mentioned above which is how I came to learn about them. Not all of them were strictly christian in their approach. NVP was probably the most concerned with believing relative to christianity though all of them used biblical references.
Maltz's "PsychoCybernetics" did suggest
that a person with a negative self image could
in fact sabotage his own life though there
was nothing about being able to bring down ruin on someone else via one's negative
believing. Of course VPW clearly taught that
a worriesome Mother was responsible for the
death of her child. That never made any sense
to me and I never bought it then and I don't
buy it now.
Anyway the point is that I knew that the teachings on believing did not represent new
material. Frankly I'm amazed that more people
don't recognize VPWs teachings on believing
as being influnced from those popular books which
were published well in advance of PFAL and
supporting material. I know some of you are certainly old enough (not trying to rile anyone *laff*).
I'm a fan of maintaining a postive self-image if
for no other reason that it results in better
morale and optimism. Even if it does nothing beyond that then I'm happy.
Speaking of BG Leonard's class, I had a question earlier that apparently got lost in all the yelling. And since several people have taken his class, I think someone might have the answer.
How much did he charge (and how much do his successors charge) for his class? I think that's a fair question. Anyone want to answer?
I went to the Web site but couldn't find how much it costs.
Now, I can only hope that some of you who think I'm one of them pesky "Wierwille apologists" when I don't squeal with delight and clap my hands when I hear stuff like "he was sent by the devil" or was a "child of the devil" might get where I'm coming from if I try to explain myself in a new way. I have my doubts, but here goes:
I have not hooked up with CFF, though I know many of them to be wonderful people, because of their dogged adherence to how things were done in twi and by VPW. Believe it or not, there are many things that were taught in PFAL that I never believed, and the list has grown some since I left. Some things I still hold true. It really has nothing to do with where I heard them.
I also never hooked up with CES because I believe it was founded on pointing fingers at others' sins when some of the pointers were pretty robust sinners too.
In other words, I'm my own person, with my own mind. I don't want/need another ministry to follow, and I wasn't a very obedient follower the first time around, so why should I?
If I raise a flag of caution about jumping on BG Leonard's bandwagon, or anyone else's, it's not because I'm defending Victor Paul Wierwille or trying to justify/excuse anything he did wrong in his life. But I feel my point about bandwagons (though I didn't use that word, that WAS my point) was lost in the knee-jerk reaction to what I said.
The fact that I don't speculate about VPW's eternal destination, that I have not grown to hate him, and that I question whether anyone is qualified to say that he was a counterfeit sent by the devil does not automatically mean I'm an idiot wearing blinders.
Just because I choose not to talk at length about the wrongs of others doesn't mean I am a "shallow person" (thanks, though, Dot, for your expert assessment of me) or blind or stupid or in denial or any of the other accusations that seem to get thrown around when anyone has a different viewpoint than "it was all evil always."
I also (in case anyone gives a dammmm about what I really think rather than what you think I think), strongly take issue with Oldiesman's renewed cavalier attitude toward those who have been used and abused. I thought you were past this. What gives?
And Kit, yes, I'd have been angry too if anyone had stolen my Bible. But that little sweet old man turned lemons into lemonade by the purity of his heart. Period. That was my point in telling that story.
That dear old man could have stood in church and ranted and raved and cursed the SOB who stole his Bible every Sunday and Wednesday for the next 10 years. But he chose instead to hope the person might get saved. I call that a pure heart of forgiveness. (And before anyone pounces on me for that, here's my forgiveness disclaimer: I figure if I forgive someone, that doesn't let him off God's hook; it just frees my heart for some more enjoyable and useful emotions than hate. I try to keep my own sins to a minimum and let God sort out everyone else's.)
So anyhow, I was trying to provoke some thought and insert some objectivity. I must not express myself well, because apparently only a handful got it. Oh well, *shrug*, I knew what I meant.
money to cover costs and paying for materials though I think PFAL was a bit pricey. At the time one of the class leaders said "well we have
to cover the cost of renting the room and the refreshments". At the time I kind of bought so
I didn't really put up much fuss about it.
I remember someone telling me that PFAL was
once like $300 ! I would have had no problems
walking from that. I wonder how many people
worldwide signed on for that price ? Guess
thats when they bought some aviation equipment
huh ?
I can't remember the last time I laid out money
for a church related class or seminar though when I've felt inclined I've certainly thrown some dough into an offerring plate. I have spent money at the bookstore on audio tapes and books but thats hardly a class.
That was my last post to Oldiesman before he went on some kind of cafe hiatus. If you'll recall, I made reference to that earlier on this thread when I told him that similarities prove plagiarism regardless of dissimilarities that may also exist. This time he responded that I'd made a good point and he's considering it. I don't think, if he's being honest, that he'll come to a conclusion different from mine. But I have to sit back and let him reach that conclusion on his own.
I'm going back to page 3 to Shazzy's post because it really hit me between the eyes...
quote:VPW offered the works of others in The Way bookstore, but he conveniently left out those specific works he stole from.
and
Wierwille never offered B.G. Leonard's work in The Way bookstore as far as I know, and I go back to 1971. Why did he offer some of the works of Kenyon, Bullinger, etc.? I would guess that he simply wanted to flesh out his bookstore and earn more profit! When he had written more of his own stuff, I noticed the works of others just sort of dried up.
That is such a great observation. Why didn't he have Stiles and Leonard's books in the bookstore? They probably weren't as academic as Kenyon, Bullinger and Lamsa - us hippies would have figured out the incredible similarities! I remember reading "How to Enjoy the Bible" and thinking the teachings were a lot like PFAL, just more complicated. I never thought about plagiarism because in PFAL, VP made sure everyone got a look at the "Four Crucified" appendix in "The Companion Bible" and Bullinger was verbally credited.
There was also some fuzzy stories about VP figuring all this stuff out himself and then discovering Bullinger and others later. How amazing! What a MOG!
He gave just enough credit to others for me to believe that that was all he got from others. Does that make sense?
Evan - I remember LCM spewing all kinds of viscious goo about Steve & Suzie S. taking BG's classes and (*gasp*) promoting them! I also seem to recall that Craiggers was really miffed that someone got HEALED from BG's teachings or by BG himself (don't remember which).
I also remember thinking it was strange. Shouldn't we be glad that someone was healed, period?
Didn't BG come to VP's memorial service? What's the story on that?
Hey everyone, get this: Remember, I'm not quoting VPW at all, not a single word. I want you to remember that while reading pgs. 35-41 of the Green Book.
quote:I have gone to the altar again and again, and received nothing. I have sought and cried after God...
Did you ever realize that salvation is a gift, that it is not necessary that you go any place to get it?...
It is a gift from the Father's heart to you...
I have always heard that one must DO and GIVE UP a lot of things...
Turn with me, if you will, to Isaiah 53:6...
He is describing you. You have turned to your own way...
This requires nothing on your part, does it?...
Notice the next scripture, John 3:16...
Let us look at these verses carefully. 'That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord...' [Rafael's note: please observe that this is a misquote of the King James, which says "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus..."]...
That is easy to do...Does that mean I am a child of God now?...
How do you know you are born of God?
Because the Word says I am... I must be His child. The Word declares I am. What about receiving Eternal Life?
I John 5:13...Do you believe on the Name of Jesus?
I certainly do.
Then what have you?
I have eternal life... This is wonderful, but I have heard you speak so many times about Righteousness, the ability to stand in God's presence without the sense of guilt or inferiority. When does one get that?...
Isn't this wonderful? Has it all been given to me freely?
Eph. 2:8-10 (he quotes it here)...
I never dreamed that is could be as easy as that... I have been created in Christ Jesus. I am a New Creation... How I praise Him! How I thank Him through Jesus, my new, wonderful Lord!
Mind you, I did not quote the Green Book a single time.
Check it out: I'm not quoting Wierwille again. Specifically, I'm not quoting Living Victoriously, pages 150-151
quote:Mental assent is one of the most dangerous of the enemies of a life of faith. It looks and sounds so religious. It will go as far as to say, "I believe in the verbal inspiration of the Bible. I am contending for the faith once delivered to the saints." Yet they dare not act on the Word; they do not give it its place, they merely talk about its integrity...
The greatest battle that any child of God will ever fight is the battle of Faith.
We often wonder why it is so hard to believe God.
The reason is that we are surrounded by an antagonistic atmosphere that is presided over by the enemy of all righteousness...
If you think VPW plagiarized Leonard, you should see what he did to Kenyon.
quote:The Word takes the place of the unseen Christ.
And thank you for your observations of me as well. They got me all warm and fuzzy...
;)-->
You said I was melodramatic, I said I THINK YOUR VIEW to be shallow and short sighted.
"You may think I am dramatic but I think your view to be shallow and short sighted."
I never called you stupid nor did I call you blind, after Oldies went off on me, I did tell him I saw him that way -- that was a LONG time in the making, not just a result of his post to me. But his post to me was the final button pushed.
For the RECORD, once again I did not say VPW was a child of the devil.
I do THINK he was a false prophet.
I listed the things VPW did, to back up my statement that I thought he was a counterfiet.
You said:
"Now this is just out-and-out melodrama. Are you trying to say you know that the Devil sent VPW and you even know why?? Sheesh, Dot. I really avoided spiritualizing in twi. I don't get why you want to do it now."
Sorry, Linda I did not get the memo saying we could not spiritualize or have an opinion? :)-->
You said:
"But when I see someone stating as fact something that there's no way to know"
It was an opinion, if you read what I wrote I have IMO in there, but as Goey pointed out, I do not have to write it each time to have an opinion.
If somehow, you thought I was stating a FACT, even though I said IMO, then it was missed communication.
Your response to my opinion was very strong and demeaning to me, in my opinion, as well.
I believe we can be fruit inspectors and pretty well guess if a person was DOING evil they probably had evil in their heart. Again my opinion.
I thought perhaps you were viewing things through rose colored glasses. If that offended you then I apologize.
As I said. We disagree. -->
Your post did explain your view and you do have a sweet heart. Thanks for taking the time to post it. :)-->
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 13, 2003 at 18:11.]
I always thought that section seemed out of place in the Green Book. It seemed so disimilar in tone to the articles around it.
Thanks for the thread Dot. and thanks Raf for your input. This is very interesting material, and does help put the ministry's benefits vs. its abuses into perspective.
That makes me feel better seeing it as unseen rather than absent. Inseen tells me he is there but I just cannot SEE him. Absent made me feel more abandoned. So, VPW took the line and changed it from "Unseen" to Absent!
WOW.....
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 11, 2003 at 3:52.]
Yes, Leonard was there, along with Mrs. Leonard. But not at the funeral, but that next Racca Ages. Or mebbe it was just for Score week. Mrs. Leonard said it was surreal. They put them up in a trailer on grounds. They had a session in the BRG hosted byPam Craley, the historian. She asked them questions of interest to Way history which they answered kindly and circumspectly. BG's answers were more preaching than simply story telling. I asaw a video of this session.
There was a steady stream of people going to the trailer at all hours for healing. When the Great Fore Head heard of this a sentry was posted there to keep people away! So they'd sneak in the back door. I recall there were lots of health problems at HQ in those days. Hmmm.
This was the very Score Week during which the Fore Skin went ballistic on Leonard & the region leader. I'm hoping the Leonard's were already gone!
A word on Leonard. He and Mrs. stayed in our home for nearly 3 weeks. BG was very old and not fully with it. And he needed a good deal of 'personal assistance'. Whie I think one could rightly call him a bit of a "crank" in some ways and holding some curious views, he was an incredibly humble & gracious guest, always preferring to cause no trouble, draw no attention to himself. He loved children and loved just sitting with our kids around the kitchen table. His demeanor was my idea of Christian. Quite a contrast to Wayfer prima donnas.
Besides Leonard's teachings & books he also wrote poetry, wicked satire under a funny nom de plumme, and hundreds of hymns of remarkably high quality, including perhaps a hundred in Spanish.
I've seen the tape of the Leonard's at TWI as well. It's sometimes (usually?) shown during "the Gifts of the Spirit" class. I think this practice is done when classes are mostly made up of ex-wayfers, I'm not sure.
My understanding is that Martindale ordered the tape to be destroyed because it was full of lies and it wasn't "on the word". (Brother Leonard kept referring to the TWI-verbaged "manifestations" as the biblically-accurate, "gifts of the Spirit".) Only problem is, Craig forgot about the tape that was given to the Leonard's when they left TWI the day after the taping. (Warned of God according to Sis. Evelyn) Anyway, upon leaving TWI the Leonard's conducted a class in Montana or Idaho I think, and didn't return to Brownsville for about three weeks. When they returned, their house had been broken into and ransacked, though nothing was found to be missing. Amazing Coincidence?
One of the great truths mentioned in this thread is that fact that Jesus said you would know men "by their fruits". When I met Bro. Leonard he was pretty much bed-ridden although he did attend a few Sunday services with us and an occasional dinner. He was 93 going on 94 I believe. What struck me most about him was the fact that... HE PRAYED ALL DAY LONG! For real. All day long you could hear him singing, praising God, praying, prophesying etc. Definitely a positive, lasting impression.
You are right. It did set us up for Mog's and Wog's. Kinda like a catholic priest - the go to person -- with Christ being absent.
I recently spoke with a wonderful man who knows of PFAL, sat through it but never got into TWI. Instead, he is a minister else where. He also studied under Leonard and brought a fresh perspective to me about VPW being a False Prophet. He asked me where Jesus was in my life and I said pretty much a tag on the end of a prayer.
When I stopped believing in the trinity it became confusing on how to talk to God and Jesus. Before I figured when I spoke with one the other was in on it as they "were one".
In the Way, IMO, they pushed Jesus into the background, I believe it was to promote the seperation of God and Jesus as most of us had been trinitarians if we came to TWI as Chritians.
Also, I was told of a "Jesus Spirit" which was a counterfiet and that was also a determining factor on TWI's involvement with Jesus. (Or at least the public explaination)
So, we went through some scripture and talked. He said something like, "What do you think of a ministry which pushes Christ out-of-the-way?"
Then, we talked about the false prophets and how in TWI Jesus was pushed into the background as Moggie got the front seat.
He read some scripture on "anti-Christs", false prophets, etc. And with what *I* know to be true, it all started to line up. I knew we were in a cult but I was unwilling to think of VPW as a false prophet. Sometimes fresh eyes can really open things up for one.
That is when I saw, IN MY OPINION, that we were not just in a little cult in Ohio. We were in a cult talked about in the Bible. False prophets; anti-christs. (For the nit-pickers, I said "A" cult like one of many, "A" false prophet, not THE false prophet. Anti-christs not "THE" Anit-Christ.)
And how when Jesus was knocked back a bit we did then go to "leadership" as the head of the body. The moggies. Not to say that men do not have ministries and we should not go to them, but the Bible does clearly warn us about false prophets. We are to "test" them -check them out.
Well, VIP and Forehead do not pass the smell test, IMO. I was floored at how genuinely tricked I really had been.
IMO, it WAS so much bigger than I had ever thought. The devil was so much more slick that I anticipated. And I had done a disservice to God by buying into something and staying in something I eventually KNEW was not right. Praise God I left! Praise God you did TOO!
(So, in an effort to be pragmatic let me say this now - I DO NOT care if you are offended. I do not have to run to get permisson from anyone to post this opinion. So, go balistic. If you do not see it as FACT, well when I post facts you don't like that either. :)-->)
Reach your own conclusions. I might be right, I might not.
Mathew 7: 15-20
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Evan- Thanks for your sharing. It was heartfelt and gives us a little insight into BG Leonard. Thank you!
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 11, 2003 at 16:32.]
"Leonard's conducted a class in Montana or Idaho I think, and didn't return to Brownsville for about three weeks. When they returned, their house had been broken into and ransacked, though nothing was found to be missing. Amazing Coincidence?"
Greek2me- I am not surprised but continually "awakened" I guess is the word.
How did Leonard view VPW? As a fellow Christian? Or a nemisis?
Don't know that I can answer that. In the tape made at TWI, Bro. Leonard called him
"a very apt student" or "a very capable student" I don't recall the exact phrasing. He was speaking to Mrs. Weirwille at the time who appeared briefly on the end of the tape.
Apart from that, I never heard Bro. Leonard express an opinion about VP.
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Good Post Kit!
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Dot Matrix
Raf posted this on another thread, I feel it helpful:
Some useful info, from a variety of sources...
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proving plagiarism in the United States requires the plaintiff to show that 1) the defendant had access to the earlier work [in the Wierwille/Stiles case, this has already been established - Raf] and 2) the defendant's work bears a "substantial similarity" to the plaintiff's original. It sounds like a legal blur because it is. Different courts have different opinions on what constitutes "substantial similarity." For example, jazz drummer Bernard "Pretty" Purdie filed a copyright-infringement suit against a rapper who lifted a lone cymbal crash from one of Purdie's recordings. He claims that his cymbal crash--a single beat--is so recognizably his that any use of it violates his copyright.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Slate.com
I would htink that one cymbal crash is a little extreme. But that's music, and irrelevant to this discussion.
Plagiarism means the existence of similarities that are "beyond probability or coincidence.? I lost the source of that quote.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anytime you quote, summarize or paraphrase, you must acknowledge the original source. Even if you summarize or paraphrase, if you do not directly credit your source through a citation YOU ARE PLAGIARIZING!!!
If you quote a source, you must quote exactly, word for word. Cite the source in the paper with a footnote or parenthetical citation. (See How to Cite Sources.)
Summaries and paraphrasing must also be cited. Cite these exactly as you would a quote. Summaries and paraphrasing are merely condensed versions of someone else's work! You must give them credit for the information.
Simply put, PARAPHRASING is putting an author's work into your own words. Although the information is in your own words, it is still the original author's work. You have merely rephrased it! SUMMARIZING is writing out the main points of someone else's work in your own words. Once again, this is not information which you have created, therefore it is to be cited.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Plagiarism.org
Feel free to peruse the following Web site as well: Defining Plagiarism
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 11, 2003 at 2:59.]
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diazbro
Even when I had PFAL for the first time I
noticed that the teachings on believing were
similar to the late 50s/early 60s pop psyschology offerred by authors such as Norman Vincent Peale, Maxwell Maltz, Dale Carnegie, and Earl Nightingale. Some of these guys still have lasting influence even today.
Most of this material was aimed squarely at salesmen and those in a position to deal with the public. My dad had books and records by all of the authors mentioned above which is how I came to learn about them. Not all of them were strictly christian in their approach. NVP was probably the most concerned with believing relative to christianity though all of them used biblical references.
Maltz's "PsychoCybernetics" did suggest
that a person with a negative self image could
in fact sabotage his own life though there
was nothing about being able to bring down ruin on someone else via one's negative
believing. Of course VPW clearly taught that
a worriesome Mother was responsible for the
death of her child. That never made any sense
to me and I never bought it then and I don't
buy it now.
Anyway the point is that I knew that the teachings on believing did not represent new
material. Frankly I'm amazed that more people
don't recognize VPWs teachings on believing
as being influnced from those popular books which
were published well in advance of PFAL and
supporting material. I know some of you are certainly old enough (not trying to rile anyone *laff*).
I'm a fan of maintaining a postive self-image if
for no other reason that it results in better
morale and optimism. Even if it does nothing beyond that then I'm happy.
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Linda Z
Speaking of BG Leonard's class, I had a question earlier that apparently got lost in all the yelling. And since several people have taken his class, I think someone might have the answer.
How much did he charge (and how much do his successors charge) for his class? I think that's a fair question. Anyone want to answer?
I went to the Web site but couldn't find how much it costs.
Now, I can only hope that some of you who think I'm one of them pesky "Wierwille apologists" when I don't squeal with delight and clap my hands when I hear stuff like "he was sent by the devil" or was a "child of the devil" might get where I'm coming from if I try to explain myself in a new way. I have my doubts, but here goes:
I have not hooked up with CFF, though I know many of them to be wonderful people, because of their dogged adherence to how things were done in twi and by VPW. Believe it or not, there are many things that were taught in PFAL that I never believed, and the list has grown some since I left. Some things I still hold true. It really has nothing to do with where I heard them.
I also never hooked up with CES because I believe it was founded on pointing fingers at others' sins when some of the pointers were pretty robust sinners too.
In other words, I'm my own person, with my own mind. I don't want/need another ministry to follow, and I wasn't a very obedient follower the first time around, so why should I?
If I raise a flag of caution about jumping on BG Leonard's bandwagon, or anyone else's, it's not because I'm defending Victor Paul Wierwille or trying to justify/excuse anything he did wrong in his life. But I feel my point about bandwagons (though I didn't use that word, that WAS my point) was lost in the knee-jerk reaction to what I said.
The fact that I don't speculate about VPW's eternal destination, that I have not grown to hate him, and that I question whether anyone is qualified to say that he was a counterfeit sent by the devil does not automatically mean I'm an idiot wearing blinders.
Just because I choose not to talk at length about the wrongs of others doesn't mean I am a "shallow person" (thanks, though, Dot, for your expert assessment of me) or blind or stupid or in denial or any of the other accusations that seem to get thrown around when anyone has a different viewpoint than "it was all evil always."
I also (in case anyone gives a dammmm about what I really think rather than what you think I think), strongly take issue with Oldiesman's renewed cavalier attitude toward those who have been used and abused. I thought you were past this. What gives?
And Kit, yes, I'd have been angry too if anyone had stolen my Bible. But that little sweet old man turned lemons into lemonade by the purity of his heart. Period. That was my point in telling that story.
That dear old man could have stood in church and ranted and raved and cursed the SOB who stole his Bible every Sunday and Wednesday for the next 10 years. But he chose instead to hope the person might get saved. I call that a pure heart of forgiveness. (And before anyone pounces on me for that, here's my forgiveness disclaimer: I figure if I forgive someone, that doesn't let him off God's hook; it just frees my heart for some more enjoyable and useful emotions than hate. I try to keep my own sins to a minimum and let God sort out everyone else's.)
So anyhow, I was trying to provoke some thought and insert some objectivity. I must not express myself well, because apparently only a handful got it. Oh well, *shrug*, I knew what I meant.
Linda Z
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Goey
Nice Post Linda,
Thanks
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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diazbro
Also. Relative to paying for biblical/religious
classes. I don't have a problem with kicking in
money to cover costs and paying for materials though I think PFAL was a bit pricey. At the time one of the class leaders said "well we have
to cover the cost of renting the room and the refreshments". At the time I kind of bought so
I didn't really put up much fuss about it.
I remember someone telling me that PFAL was
once like $300 ! I would have had no problems
walking from that. I wonder how many people
worldwide signed on for that price ? Guess
thats when they bought some aviation equipment
huh ?
I can't remember the last time I laid out money
for a church related class or seminar though when I've felt inclined I've certainly thrown some dough into an offerring plate. I have spent money at the bookstore on audio tapes and books but thats hardly a class.
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Linda Z
Thanks back at ya, Goey.
Linda
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Raf
Dot,
That was my last post to Oldiesman before he went on some kind of cafe hiatus. If you'll recall, I made reference to that earlier on this thread when I told him that similarities prove plagiarism regardless of dissimilarities that may also exist. This time he responded that I'd made a good point and he's considering it. I don't think, if he's being honest, that he'll come to a conclusion different from mine. But I have to sit back and let him reach that conclusion on his own.
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Hope R.
I'm going back to page 3 to Shazzy's post because it really hit me between the eyes...
That is such a great observation. Why didn't he have Stiles and Leonard's books in the bookstore? They probably weren't as academic as Kenyon, Bullinger and Lamsa - us hippies would have figured out the incredible similarities! I remember reading "How to Enjoy the Bible" and thinking the teachings were a lot like PFAL, just more complicated. I never thought about plagiarism because in PFAL, VP made sure everyone got a look at the "Four Crucified" appendix in "The Companion Bible" and Bullinger was verbally credited.
There was also some fuzzy stories about VP figuring all this stuff out himself and then discovering Bullinger and others later. How amazing! What a MOG!
He gave just enough credit to others for me to believe that that was all he got from others. Does that make sense?
Evan - I remember LCM spewing all kinds of viscious goo about Steve & Suzie S. taking BG's classes and (*gasp*) promoting them! I also seem to recall that Craiggers was really miffed that someone got HEALED from BG's teachings or by BG himself (don't remember which).
I also remember thinking it was strange. Shouldn't we be glad that someone was healed, period?
Didn't BG come to VP's memorial service? What's the story on that?
Hope R. color>size>face>
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Raf
Leonard was there? Interesting.
Hey everyone, get this: Remember, I'm not quoting VPW at all, not a single word. I want you to remember that while reading pgs. 35-41 of the Green Book.
Mind you, I did not quote the Green Book a single time.
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Raf
E.W. Kenyon, the true father of the Word-Faith movement.
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Raf
Check it out: I'm not quoting Wierwille again. Specifically, I'm not quoting Living Victoriously, pages 150-151
If you think VPW plagiarized Leonard, you should see what he did to Kenyon.
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Dot Matrix
WOW
IT sounds just like some stuff I heard once upon a time.
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Dot Matrix
Nice post Linda
And thank you for your observations of me as well. They got me all warm and fuzzy...
You said I was melodramatic, I said I THINK YOUR VIEW to be shallow and short sighted.
"You may think I am dramatic but I think your view to be shallow and short sighted."
I never called you stupid nor did I call you blind, after Oldies went off on me, I did tell him I saw him that way -- that was a LONG time in the making, not just a result of his post to me. But his post to me was the final button pushed.
For the RECORD, once again I did not say VPW was a child of the devil.
I do THINK he was a false prophet.
I listed the things VPW did, to back up my statement that I thought he was a counterfiet.
You said:
"Now this is just out-and-out melodrama. Are you trying to say you know that the Devil sent VPW and you even know why?? Sheesh, Dot. I really avoided spiritualizing in twi. I don't get why you want to do it now."
Sorry, Linda I did not get the memo saying we could not spiritualize or have an opinion?
:)-->
You said:
"But when I see someone stating as fact something that there's no way to know"
It was an opinion, if you read what I wrote I have IMO in there, but as Goey pointed out, I do not have to write it each time to have an opinion.
If somehow, you thought I was stating a FACT, even though I said IMO, then it was missed communication.
Your response to my opinion was very strong and demeaning to me, in my opinion, as well.
I believe we can be fruit inspectors and pretty well guess if a person was DOING evil they probably had evil in their heart. Again my opinion.
I thought perhaps you were viewing things through rose colored glasses. If that offended you then I apologize.
As I said. We disagree.
-->
Your post did explain your view and you do have a sweet heart. Thanks for taking the time to post it.
:)-->
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 13, 2003 at 18:11.]
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Dot Matrix
Raf
What is the word-faith MOVEMENT?
Was there a revival going on at that time?
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Dot Matrix
I remember reading "How to Enjoy the Bible" and thinking the teachings were a lot like PFAL
Hope, the same thing happened to me. I did not even consider it being stolen.
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Jbarrax
I always thought that section seemed out of place in the Green Book. It seemed so disimilar in tone to the articles around it.
Thanks for the thread Dot. and thanks Raf for your input. This is very interesting material, and does help put the ministry's benefits vs. its abuses into perspective.
JerryB
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Dot Matrix
Thanks JB!
Pretty eye opening stuff, isn't it?
Raf
You wrote:
The Word takes the place of the unseen Christ
That makes me feel better seeing it as unseen rather than absent. Inseen tells me he is there but I just cannot SEE him. Absent made me feel more abandoned. So, VPW took the line and changed it from "Unseen" to Absent!
WOW.....
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 11, 2003 at 3:52.]
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WordWolf
Right.
Calling him "absent" does him a disservice.
You think he's spent the last 2 millenia idle?
However, calling him "absent" makes it easier to suggest
that others are acting as his proxies.
(Like mogs.)
Before the cosmetic changes, the phraseologies of his
various "appropriations" (Acts of the Plagiarist) made a lot
more sense.
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TheEvan
Yes, Leonard was there, along with Mrs. Leonard. But not at the funeral, but that next Racca Ages. Or mebbe it was just for Score week. Mrs. Leonard said it was surreal. They put them up in a trailer on grounds. They had a session in the BRG hosted byPam Craley, the historian. She asked them questions of interest to Way history which they answered kindly and circumspectly. BG's answers were more preaching than simply story telling. I asaw a video of this session.
There was a steady stream of people going to the trailer at all hours for healing. When the Great Fore Head heard of this a sentry was posted there to keep people away! So they'd sneak in the back door. I recall there were lots of health problems at HQ in those days. Hmmm.
This was the very Score Week during which the Fore Skin went ballistic on Leonard & the region leader. I'm hoping the Leonard's were already gone!
A word on Leonard. He and Mrs. stayed in our home for nearly 3 weeks. BG was very old and not fully with it. And he needed a good deal of 'personal assistance'. Whie I think one could rightly call him a bit of a "crank" in some ways and holding some curious views, he was an incredibly humble & gracious guest, always preferring to cause no trouble, draw no attention to himself. He loved children and loved just sitting with our kids around the kitchen table. His demeanor was my idea of Christian. Quite a contrast to Wayfer prima donnas.
Besides Leonard's teachings & books he also wrote poetry, wicked satire under a funny nom de plumme, and hundreds of hymns of remarkably high quality, including perhaps a hundred in Spanish.
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Greek2me
I've seen the tape of the Leonard's at TWI as well. It's sometimes (usually?) shown during "the Gifts of the Spirit" class. I think this practice is done when classes are mostly made up of ex-wayfers, I'm not sure.
My understanding is that Martindale ordered the tape to be destroyed because it was full of lies and it wasn't "on the word". (Brother Leonard kept referring to the TWI-verbaged "manifestations" as the biblically-accurate, "gifts of the Spirit".) Only problem is, Craig forgot about the tape that was given to the Leonard's when they left TWI the day after the taping. (Warned of God according to Sis. Evelyn) Anyway, upon leaving TWI the Leonard's conducted a class in Montana or Idaho I think, and didn't return to Brownsville for about three weeks. When they returned, their house had been broken into and ransacked, though nothing was found to be missing. Amazing Coincidence?
One of the great truths mentioned in this thread is that fact that Jesus said you would know men "by their fruits". When I met Bro. Leonard he was pretty much bed-ridden although he did attend a few Sunday services with us and an occasional dinner. He was 93 going on 94 I believe. What struck me most about him was the fact that... HE PRAYED ALL DAY LONG! For real. All day long you could hear him singing, praising God, praying, prophesying etc. Definitely a positive, lasting impression.
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Dot Matrix
WW
You are right. It did set us up for Mog's and Wog's. Kinda like a catholic priest - the go to person -- with Christ being absent.
I recently spoke with a wonderful man who knows of PFAL, sat through it but never got into TWI. Instead, he is a minister else where. He also studied under Leonard and brought a fresh perspective to me about VPW being a False Prophet. He asked me where Jesus was in my life and I said pretty much a tag on the end of a prayer.
When I stopped believing in the trinity it became confusing on how to talk to God and Jesus. Before I figured when I spoke with one the other was in on it as they "were one".
In the Way, IMO, they pushed Jesus into the background, I believe it was to promote the seperation of God and Jesus as most of us had been trinitarians if we came to TWI as Chritians.
Also, I was told of a "Jesus Spirit" which was a counterfiet and that was also a determining factor on TWI's involvement with Jesus. (Or at least the public explaination)
So, we went through some scripture and talked. He said something like, "What do you think of a ministry which pushes Christ out-of-the-way?"
Then, we talked about the false prophets and how in TWI Jesus was pushed into the background as Moggie got the front seat.
He read some scripture on "anti-Christs", false prophets, etc. And with what *I* know to be true, it all started to line up. I knew we were in a cult but I was unwilling to think of VPW as a false prophet. Sometimes fresh eyes can really open things up for one.
That is when I saw, IN MY OPINION, that we were not just in a little cult in Ohio. We were in a cult talked about in the Bible. False prophets; anti-christs. (For the nit-pickers, I said "A" cult like one of many, "A" false prophet, not THE false prophet. Anti-christs not "THE" Anit-Christ.)
And how when Jesus was knocked back a bit we did then go to "leadership" as the head of the body. The moggies. Not to say that men do not have ministries and we should not go to them, but the Bible does clearly warn us about false prophets. We are to "test" them -check them out.
Well, VIP and Forehead do not pass the smell test, IMO. I was floored at how genuinely tricked I really had been.
IMO, it WAS so much bigger than I had ever thought. The devil was so much more slick that I anticipated. And I had done a disservice to God by buying into something and staying in something I eventually KNEW was not right. Praise God I left! Praise God you did TOO!
(So, in an effort to be pragmatic let me say this now - I DO NOT care if you are offended. I do not have to run to get permisson from anyone to post this opinion. So, go balistic. If you do not see it as FACT, well when I post facts you don't like that either.
:)-->)
Reach your own conclusions. I might be right, I might not.
Mathew 7: 15-20
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Evan- Thanks for your sharing. It was heartfelt and gives us a little insight into BG Leonard. Thank you!
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 11, 2003 at 16:32.]
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Dot Matrix
WOW
"Leonard's conducted a class in Montana or Idaho I think, and didn't return to Brownsville for about three weeks. When they returned, their house had been broken into and ransacked, though nothing was found to be missing. Amazing Coincidence?"
Greek2me- I am not surprised but continually "awakened" I guess is the word.
How did Leonard view VPW? As a fellow Christian? Or a nemisis?
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Greek2me
Dot,
Don't know that I can answer that. In the tape made at TWI, Bro. Leonard called him
"a very apt student" or "a very capable student" I don't recall the exact phrasing. He was speaking to Mrs. Weirwille at the time who appeared briefly on the end of the tape.
Apart from that, I never heard Bro. Leonard express an opinion about VP.
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