I'm still trying to figure out some innocuous meaning behind what he said, but I just don't see how anyone can refer to Hitler as God's avenger gone too far.
To be clear, Leonard never said Hitler should have stopped at 3 million. That was my snippy interpretation of what he DID say, which was, "the avenger went beyond his allotted task, defying the Almighty in doing so...cut off for doing so."
quote:...VPW ... started a ministry to abuse people. So, we got saved and were immediately escourted in to depravity, abuse and oppression. VPW was the counterfiet sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ.
Good Lord. I think if the Devil Himself were writing this, He couldn't put his thoughts any more bold and blatant.
I profoundly disagree with these words and do not relate or acknowledge these words or experiences in any way in my time in TWI-1. They are lies, lies from the fiery pit of hell. Railing bold words of evil designed to falsely accuse one of God's children from someone who apparently thinks they are the Searcher of Hearts.
WOW, what boldness!
It demonstrates how hatred of a person, in this case VPW, blinds and distorts anything and everything VPW ever did.
Geeze no wonder why the Wierwille's don't post on here. Goodness gracious.
Dot, thanks for the "sweet heart" compliment, but I think you're missing my point.
First, the man didn't get robbed. The point was his attitude and reaction, not the woulda coulda shouldas.
Second, I want to respond to a couple things you said:
1. "VPW stole the man's lifetime work, then started a ministry to abuse people. So, we got saved and were immediately escourted in to depravity, abuse and oppression."
I already said that VPW shouldn't have plagiarized in one of my earlier posts in this thread. But I have a few problems with the rest of this. For instance:
A. You don't know that VPW's purpose for starting a ministry was "to abuse people." No one except God knows what his heart and intent were when he started out. We can criticize what we observed and knew about him, but I think to state your opinion about his purpose as fact is presuming to know what only God can know.
B. The vast majority of us were certainly not "immediately escorted into depravity, abuse and oppression."
Immediately? All of us? That's simply not true.
If only one person was abused (and I certainly know some were), that was way too many, but why exaggerate this? Your words would have much more credibility if you just stuck to the facts.
2. "VPW was the counterfiet sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ."
Now this is just out-and-out melodrama. Are you trying to say you know that the Devil sent VPW and you even know why?? Sheesh, Dot. I really avoided spiritualizing in twi. I don't get why you want to do it now.
I knew many, many people whose lives were not rendered impotent by their involvement in twi but were improved. I've said this over and over: God's hands were not tied by VPW or anyone else. You give the Devil too much credit, IMO.
Linda Z
[This message was edited by Linda Z on November 09, 2003 at 8:40.]
Imablvr, I used to think I didn't mind paying for a Bible class, but my thinking on that has changed. I used to question it sometimes, but then I fell back into line and justified it because I bought into the "Students won't be committed to finishing PFAL if it doesn't cost them something" rap.
I have no problem with ministries selling tapes or books for what they cost to produce. I do have a problem with them profiting from them. If you want to be an author, fine, be an author. If you want to make money on tapes, then get a band together. But if you want to be a minister, then minister. That's my philosophy today, anyway. It's changed before and it could change again. :)-->
Sorry for the derail. I think I took a wrong turn at the "What CG charges to run his class" thread!
Yes, I do believe ALL of us were escourted to impotency. Although, not all remained impotent. And some fought it. (Yes-men, and frightened believers, seduced/drugged sexually abused women sure have a hard time walking for Christ)
I believe the only thing that brought any GOOD to us came for God and BG Leonard. TWI was there to take our search away, not to develop us to serve God but to get us to COMMIT to the corps, the WOW field or local leadership.
The GOOD you experienced was NOT provided by VPW or TWI it was provided by God but it seems perhaps God, VPW and TWI are so woven together by some, they cannot be seperated and examined independantly.
I do believe people took PFAL and may have had some good weeks, years or times. But those GOOD times usually only happened to those who were not close to HQS. or VPW or the corps.
I do not argue that some people had some good things happened while searching and comming in contact with TWI. It depends on how close you were to the monster to see his real agenda.
If any of us had a good time or a period of growth it was because of God, Leonard and Stiles. VPW was not there to bring us the good stuff, but to bring "good stuff" to himself.
IMO, I do believe VPW was there to wisk all of us to his cult immediately, which upon examination proves to be a horror story. If you were not wisked away immediately PRAISE GOD!
But I think it was intended for all of us to be wisked away to VPW's halls of hell.
You do not give evil enough credit, or look at it seperately as an agenda, as an end to a means, or as part of a strategy to stop us from growing.
We will NEVER agree. Because I unravel the elements to examine what worked, what hurt, what healed, and what destroyed. I do not just say "because there were a few good things that happened to me durring my stay at TWI" - there must be some good in VPW. You may think I am dramatic but I think your view to be shallow and short sighted.
I say thank GOD for any good that happened, praise God for Leonard's work; and may VPW have a special place in hell for all the lives he destroyed.
I am not saying anything definitively but, IMO, you were soft selling VPW's bullsh--t as something we should perhaps accept because maybe someone got saved. Like God would need a sex pervert to help in our salvation.
You can call it melodrama. You can say what ever you you want to say. Your viewpoint and mine are different. I think VPW and his ethics were belched up from the pit of hell.
You guys think he may have been okay and gotten tricked. We are at an impass.
It is okay if you think I am wrong, it is okay if you think what I am saying is lies. I see you as naive and unwilling to take the blinders off, Oldies. I may seem evil to you but you seem stupid to me.
And Oldies who says Weirwille was one of GOD's children? Which God?
Again my posts are my opinions which I made clear. I am not declaring a "truth" but my opinion about what happened to us.
I think we were sucked in by a FALSE prophet, that is my opinion.
Just like you have opinions.
And by the way, FALSE prophets were not sent to us by GOD! (the devil quoted scripture to Jesus...)
Get a clue.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 11:29.]
quote:We can criticize what we observed and knew about him, but I think to state your opinion about his purpose as fact is presuming to know what only God can know.
So Linda, are you saying that Dot or anyone else should not state their opinion on this? That becasaue we cannot see VP's "heart" that we best keep it to ourselves? I think not.
What about "For every tree is known by his own fruit." or "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"
I believe that there is plenty of evidence to form an opinion concerning VPW's possible purposes. And I certainly think we out to be free to express it here.
Dot posted:
quote:But it was bigger than that; VPW stole the man's lifetime work, then started a ministry to abuse people. So, we got saved and were immediately escourted in to depravity, abuse and oppression.
Linda replied:
quote: "...The vast majority of us were certainly not "immediately escorted into depravity, abuse and oppression.
Immediately? All of us? That's simply not true.
If only one person was abused (and I certainly know some were), that was way too many, but why exaggerate this? Your words would have much more credibility if you just stuck to the facts.
I do not think that this is an exaggeration at all and that the VPW did indeed at least attempt to lead us (all of us) into "depravity, abuse and oppression". Depravity (moral corruption), abuse both spiritual and physical, and oppression were all built into the master plan of PFAL and TWI. He got those that he could get. This is my OPINION.
Sticking to "facts" is one thing. But what are the facts for if not to form opinions from? But it seems that you would supress those opinions and charge those that have them "with presuming to know what only God can know". Why?
BTW, Dot did not state that as a "fact". Like many statements here it was her opinion - based upon facts and observations. We should not have to preface every statement with "IMO" in order to qualify it as an opinion from a fact. I find her words (opinion) quite credibile.
However, your "opinion" that we should "stick to the facts" and not form opinions, expecially those that question the purpose and intentions of VPW and TWI, and to do so is playing God and medodrama - I find well, less than credible or incredible.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
quote: However, your "opinion" that we should "stick to the facts" and not form opinions, expecially those that question the purpose and intentions of VPW and TWI, and to do so is playing God and medodrama - I find well, less than credible.
I'm still hoping for a copy of, say, BG Leonard's definition of "word of knowledge".
I want to compare his with vpw's, and cg's also. If anyone has the wap version, I'd
like to see that also. What the heck.
Mainly, I want to see if the things I had issues with were added by vpw, or were lifted
from Leonard.
The gift of the word of knowledge is the God-given ability to take unto yourself, at your own volition, a word of knowledge (that is, a revelation of facts concerning things about which it would be humanly impossible for you to know anything at all).
it is a fact (NOT my opinion) that the good doctor spent a few years counseling me about the love of god and the way of a man with a maiden. i've told this too many times. he one-on-one taught me about how wrong it was for me to have been sexually abused as a kid and why he should show me what "real" love was all about
okay, i told him i could NOT handle this stuff and he went on to why i should be meek and open to deliverance
i finally got delivered ha ha ha ha ha ha when he finally got me but i was not in my right state of mind. after that time he would not give me the time of day. probably because it's no fun being with a dead (well almost unconscious) person
i myself honestly do not care about bg leonard. if i NEVER meet a man of god again, it will be too soon. would this have happened to me under leonard's "ministry"???? how the heck do i know? i never met the guy
as far as the "no wonder wierwille kids don't come on here" or however that was said (it's not a direct quote), i could care less about that. i do care for them as fellow human beings and abuse victims survivors whatever
but i'm not here to protect them although my heart very much goes out to them
so what am i saying ?? veepee phucked my head and broke my heart. period.
it feels like my fault at times for having been so naive and so ummmmmmmmmmmm stupid. but hey live and learn.
Some might get a hard shell around them. But most are needy.
TWI seemed like it had answers and could provide deliverance from the hurts and insecurities of past abuse.
I know, because I was psychologically abused in childhood and psychologically abused again in TWI. I was "blessed" at first (by BG's ministry) and then I stayed because I was afraid of depression or worse in the world.
I still believe in God, and like to read books, and go to Church here and there.
quote:I was "blessed" at first (by BG's ministry)...
Imablvr, you were blessed at and by TWI, if you were there. Admit it, people at TWI were part of that process. Unless you were actively involved in the real BG's ministry, your statement (you were blessed by BG's ministry) is a result of another lie, that the blessings we had were there "only because of God and B.G. Leonard." What nonsense! That's a lie, similar to the lie that VPW was a child of the devil, and has a place in hell. These are lies from the Father of Lies, spewed with bold spittle from someone who demonstratively thinks only evil about VPW. Believing these lies causes you to denounce where you were even!
IMO, due to the words of Dot Matrix folks should get out their Spiritual Halitosis meter and start using it.
I'm sorry, dear Excathie, if you've somehow interpreted what I've said as any kind of excusing or ignoring the wrong that was done to you or anyone else. That wasn't my purpose at all. Nothing I said was intended to defend or explain away anything VPW did wrong.
Goey and Dot:
Of course we're all free to have our opinions. But when I see someone stating as fact something that there's no way to know, I'm just as free to state my opinion about that, am I not?
It's one thing to say "VPW was a bad guy. I can tell from his fruit." That's something that can be known for sure. It's totally different to say, "VPW was the counterfeit sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ." That wasn't stated as an opinion ("I think he was the counterfeit...."); it was stated as a fact ("He was the counterfeit....").
For one thing, many of us found Christ way before we ever heard of VPW or TWI, and no, not everyone was rendered impotent. I know for a fact many, many people who were not.
I've said repeatedly that's because of the greatness of God, because He can perform wondrous things in spite of what men do. His hands are not tied. It was possible to know God and His Son despite anything that was wrong with twi.
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Diazbro
GRRREEEEAAATTT Point!!!!
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TheInvisibleDan
Rafael,
Which Leonard work is that bizarre stuff from?
Thanks.
Danny
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Raf
Danny,
Positive Prayer, pp 25-26.
I'm still trying to figure out some innocuous meaning behind what he said, but I just don't see how anyone can refer to Hitler as God's avenger gone too far.
To be clear, Leonard never said Hitler should have stopped at 3 million. That was my snippy interpretation of what he DID say, which was, "the avenger went beyond his allotted task, defying the Almighty in doing so...cut off for doing so."
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oldiesman
Good Lord. I think if the Devil Himself were writing this, He couldn't put his thoughts any more bold and blatant.
I profoundly disagree with these words and do not relate or acknowledge these words or experiences in any way in my time in TWI-1. They are lies, lies from the fiery pit of hell. Railing bold words of evil designed to falsely accuse one of God's children from someone who apparently thinks they are the Searcher of Hearts.
WOW, what boldness!
It demonstrates how hatred of a person, in this case VPW, blinds and distorts anything and everything VPW ever did.
Geeze no wonder why the Wierwille's don't post on here. Goodness gracious.
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vickles
Gosh you must be pretty blind, oldiesman, or pretty gullible.
Ok!! I will not try to be a nice person...ok? I will not!!
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WordWolf
Oldies,
Some people had some truly horrific experiences at twi.
You didn't and I didn't.
Go review the audio clips if you think this is just hearsay.
Donna blamed someone's religious affiliation for their death, and so on.
I'm still hoping for a copy of, say, BG Leonard's definition of "word of knowledge".
I want to compare his with vpw's, and cg's also. If anyone has the wap version, I'd
like to see that also. What the heck.
Mainly, I want to see if the things I had issues with were added by vpw, or were lifted
from Leonard. If I were to make a wild guess, I'd guess that they were a distortion of
Leonard. However, that's a wild guess.
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Linda Z
Dot, thanks for the "sweet heart" compliment, but I think you're missing my point.
First, the man didn't get robbed. The point was his attitude and reaction, not the woulda coulda shouldas.
Second, I want to respond to a couple things you said:
1. "VPW stole the man's lifetime work, then started a ministry to abuse people. So, we got saved and were immediately escourted in to depravity, abuse and oppression."
I already said that VPW shouldn't have plagiarized in one of my earlier posts in this thread. But I have a few problems with the rest of this. For instance:
A. You don't know that VPW's purpose for starting a ministry was "to abuse people." No one except God knows what his heart and intent were when he started out. We can criticize what we observed and knew about him, but I think to state your opinion about his purpose as fact is presuming to know what only God can know.
B. The vast majority of us were certainly not "immediately escorted into depravity, abuse and oppression."
Immediately? All of us? That's simply not true.
If only one person was abused (and I certainly know some were), that was way too many, but why exaggerate this? Your words would have much more credibility if you just stuck to the facts.
2. "VPW was the counterfiet sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ."
Now this is just out-and-out melodrama. Are you trying to say you know that the Devil sent VPW and you even know why?? Sheesh, Dot. I really avoided spiritualizing in twi. I don't get why you want to do it now.
I knew many, many people whose lives were not rendered impotent by their involvement in twi but were improved. I've said this over and over: God's hands were not tied by VPW or anyone else. You give the Devil too much credit, IMO.
Linda Z
[This message was edited by Linda Z on November 09, 2003 at 8:40.]
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Linda Z
Mike, year2027, and Raf, thanks.
Imablvr, I used to think I didn't mind paying for a Bible class, but my thinking on that has changed. I used to question it sometimes, but then I fell back into line and justified it because I bought into the "Students won't be committed to finishing PFAL if it doesn't cost them something" rap.
I have no problem with ministries selling tapes or books for what they cost to produce. I do have a problem with them profiting from them. If you want to be an author, fine, be an author. If you want to make money on tapes, then get a band together. But if you want to be a minister, then minister. That's my philosophy today, anyway. It's changed before and it could change again.
:)-->
Sorry for the derail. I think I took a wrong turn at the "What CG charges to run his class" thread!
Linda Z
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IMF777
I found this comparison of B.G. Leonard's ministry and V.P. Wierwille's enlightening. It is located at: http://www.waychrist.com/BG%20V.%20VPW.htm
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Dot Matrix
Linda and oldies
I PROFOUNDLY disagree.
Yes, I do believe ALL of us were escourted to impotency. Although, not all remained impotent. And some fought it. (Yes-men, and frightened believers, seduced/drugged sexually abused women sure have a hard time walking for Christ)
I believe the only thing that brought any GOOD to us came for God and BG Leonard. TWI was there to take our search away, not to develop us to serve God but to get us to COMMIT to the corps, the WOW field or local leadership.
The GOOD you experienced was NOT provided by VPW or TWI it was provided by God but it seems perhaps God, VPW and TWI are so woven together by some, they cannot be seperated and examined independantly.
I do believe people took PFAL and may have had some good weeks, years or times. But those GOOD times usually only happened to those who were not close to HQS. or VPW or the corps.
I do not argue that some people had some good things happened while searching and comming in contact with TWI. It depends on how close you were to the monster to see his real agenda.
If any of us had a good time or a period of growth it was because of God, Leonard and Stiles. VPW was not there to bring us the good stuff, but to bring "good stuff" to himself.
IMO, I do believe VPW was there to wisk all of us to his cult immediately, which upon examination proves to be a horror story. If you were not wisked away immediately PRAISE GOD!
But I think it was intended for all of us to be wisked away to VPW's halls of hell.
You do not give evil enough credit, or look at it seperately as an agenda, as an end to a means, or as part of a strategy to stop us from growing.
We will NEVER agree. Because I unravel the elements to examine what worked, what hurt, what healed, and what destroyed. I do not just say "because there were a few good things that happened to me durring my stay at TWI" - there must be some good in VPW. You may think I am dramatic but I think your view to be shallow and short sighted.
I say thank GOD for any good that happened, praise God for Leonard's work; and may VPW have a special place in hell for all the lives he destroyed.
I am not saying anything definitively but, IMO, you were soft selling VPW's bullsh--t as something we should perhaps accept because maybe someone got saved. Like God would need a sex pervert to help in our salvation.
You can call it melodrama. You can say what ever you you want to say. Your viewpoint and mine are different. I think VPW and his ethics were belched up from the pit of hell.
You guys think he may have been okay and gotten tricked. We are at an impass.
It is okay if you think I am wrong, it is okay if you think what I am saying is lies. I see you as naive and unwilling to take the blinders off, Oldies. I may seem evil to you but you seem stupid to me.
And Oldies who says Weirwille was one of GOD's children? Which God?
Again my posts are my opinions which I made clear. I am not declaring a "truth" but my opinion about what happened to us.
I think we were sucked in by a FALSE prophet, that is my opinion.
Just like you have opinions.
And by the way, FALSE prophets were not sent to us by GOD! (the devil quoted scripture to Jesus...)
Get a clue.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 09, 2003 at 11:29.]
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Vickles
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Goey
Linda,
You posted:
So Linda, are you saying that Dot or anyone else should not state their opinion on this? That becasaue we cannot see VP's "heart" that we best keep it to ourselves? I think not.What about "For every tree is known by his own fruit." or "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:"
I believe that there is plenty of evidence to form an opinion concerning VPW's possible purposes. And I certainly think we out to be free to express it here.
Dot posted:
Linda replied:
I do not think that this is an exaggeration at all and that the VPW did indeed at least attempt to lead us (all of us) into "depravity, abuse and oppression". Depravity (moral corruption), abuse both spiritual and physical, and oppression were all built into the master plan of PFAL and TWI. He got those that he could get. This is my OPINION.
Sticking to "facts" is one thing. But what are the facts for if not to form opinions from? But it seems that you would supress those opinions and charge those that have them "with presuming to know what only God can know". Why?
BTW, Dot did not state that as a "fact". Like many statements here it was her opinion - based upon facts and observations. We should not have to preface every statement with "IMO" in order to qualify it as an opinion from a fact. I find her words (opinion) quite credibile.
However, your "opinion" that we should "stick to the facts" and not form opinions, expecially those that question the purpose and intentions of VPW and TWI, and to do so is playing God and medodrama - I find well, less than credible or incredible.
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Goey
I thought I was allowed to have an opinion.
And yes, you see what I am saying -- it was VPW's intent to zip us away to his "cult"
If it did not happen immediately it is the grace of God and some truths we got from hearing Leonard's work.
IMO VPW is evil.
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Dot Matrix
Goey:
AMEN!!!
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Raf
The gift of the word of knowledge is the God-given ability to take unto yourself, at your own volition, a word of knowledge (that is, a revelation of facts concerning things about which it would be humanly impossible for you to know anything at all).
B.G. Leonard.
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excathedra
facts.... opinions....
ohman
it is a fact (NOT my opinion) that the good doctor spent a few years counseling me about the love of god and the way of a man with a maiden. i've told this too many times. he one-on-one taught me about how wrong it was for me to have been sexually abused as a kid and why he should show me what "real" love was all about
okay, i told him i could NOT handle this stuff and he went on to why i should be meek and open to deliverance
i finally got delivered ha ha ha ha ha ha when he finally got me but i was not in my right state of mind. after that time he would not give me the time of day. probably because it's no fun being with a dead (well almost unconscious) person
i myself honestly do not care about bg leonard. if i NEVER meet a man of god again, it will be too soon. would this have happened to me under leonard's "ministry"???? how the heck do i know? i never met the guy
as far as the "no wonder wierwille kids don't come on here" or however that was said (it's not a direct quote), i could care less about that. i do care for them as fellow human beings and abuse victims survivors whatever
but i'm not here to protect them although my heart very much goes out to them
so what am i saying ?? veepee phucked my head and broke my heart. period.
it feels like my fault at times for having been so naive and so ummmmmmmmmmmm stupid. but hey live and learn.
?
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excathedra
oh ***** it
[This message was edited by excathedra on November 09, 2003 at 14:56.]
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excathedra
does it make me mad or ill at times ?
duh
YES
?
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excathedra
AND IF YOU THINK I WAS UNIQUE, then you really have your head up his a$$
?
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CircleGame
((((excathedra))))
Anyone who has been abused is vulnerable.
Some might get a hard shell around them. But most are needy.
TWI seemed like it had answers and could provide deliverance from the hurts and insecurities of past abuse.
I know, because I was psychologically abused in childhood and psychologically abused again in TWI. I was "blessed" at first (by BG's ministry) and then I stayed because I was afraid of depression or worse in the world.
I still believe in God, and like to read books, and go to Church here and there.
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excathedra
oh thank you for the hugs, you're a darling.
?
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oldiesman
Imablvr, you were blessed at and by TWI, if you were there. Admit it, people at TWI were part of that process. Unless you were actively involved in the real BG's ministry, your statement (you were blessed by BG's ministry) is a result of another lie, that the blessings we had were there "only because of God and B.G. Leonard." What nonsense! That's a lie, similar to the lie that VPW was a child of the devil, and has a place in hell. These are lies from the Father of Lies, spewed with bold spittle from someone who demonstratively thinks only evil about VPW. Believing these lies causes you to denounce where you were even!
IMO, due to the words of Dot Matrix folks should get out their Spiritual Halitosis meter and start using it.
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Linda Z
I'm sorry, dear Excathie, if you've somehow interpreted what I've said as any kind of excusing or ignoring the wrong that was done to you or anyone else. That wasn't my purpose at all. Nothing I said was intended to defend or explain away anything VPW did wrong.
Goey and Dot:
Of course we're all free to have our opinions. But when I see someone stating as fact something that there's no way to know, I'm just as free to state my opinion about that, am I not?
It's one thing to say "VPW was a bad guy. I can tell from his fruit." That's something that can be known for sure. It's totally different to say, "VPW was the counterfeit sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ." That wasn't stated as an opinion ("I think he was the counterfeit...."); it was stated as a fact ("He was the counterfeit....").
For one thing, many of us found Christ way before we ever heard of VPW or TWI, and no, not everyone was rendered impotent. I know for a fact many, many people who were not.
I've said repeatedly that's because of the greatness of God, because He can perform wondrous things in spite of what men do. His hands are not tied. It was possible to know God and His Son despite anything that was wrong with twi.
Linda
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excathedra
linzee, i love you. i know where you're coming from
oldies, not sure about you
;)--> 
;)-->
i'm getting too old for this sh!t
mwahssssssssssss
?
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