Thanks, it made sense to me. It enabled me to seperate the good from the bad. Without knowledge of the class being Leonard's then we are stuck trying to believe God had to use a sexual predator to help us get saved...
Now Dot, if you still have one, go get your blue book, "The Bible tells me so" and read chapter one, "Release from your prisons", in light of your last post.
Enlightening, at the least.
Have been hearing this from believer all around the country.
Since leaving the way, we are being released from a heavy duty prison.
VPW said: "We must believe the Word of God which is truth and them we must know the Son who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. In following God's Word and in knowing His Son, we will not only be free, but we shall be free indeed."
I don't doubt that BG Leonard was a swell guy, but let me ask this: How much were his classes? Did I read right earlier that they were $150 per and that there were about 30 of them?
If that's the case, I'd say VP copied more from him than material for his books and classes.
I think it was wrong for VPW to charge money for PFAL (they should have let people donate if they wanted to--really donate, not be forced to pay for a class and call it a donation), and, I think it also was wrong for BG Leonard.
I've no reason to doubt that BG Leonard was sincere, but I believe if someone has a genuine ministry, he or she doesn't have to charge for ministering and shouldn't.
Did George Mueller charge the orphans for the food he gave them? Why should anyone charge, then, for the "bread of life"?
Linda Z
PS. I have a pretty laissez faire attitude toward the offshoots, but those that are carrying on the twi tradition of taping class after class and charging money for them and expecting people to spend half their lives sitting on their a$$es staring at a tv screen are missing the boat.
If ya ask me. the sponteneity of really walking with God and serving people where they live instead of expecting them to come to you is a whole lot more exciting!
Before I went to my first twi fellowship I went for a while to a little church that had a lot of very sweet, loving people in its congregation (despite an obnoxious, hellfire-preaching minister). One day this little old man (he looked about 95) stood up to share something during the Wed. night prayer fellowship.
He said, "I left my Bible on the front seat of my car while I ran an errand, and someone stole it. They shouldn't have stolen it, but I'm glad they did. I hope they read it and get saved."
That's how I feel about the VPW plagiarism stuff. He shouldn't have done it, definitely, but if those he stole from were so sure of the deliverance in their messages, I think they should have been happy to have it spread further.
To me it's sorta like that "I praise God whether Christ be preached in sincerity or out of contention" verse.
Dot - thank you for this thread - it sure is interesting!! I loved your long post about why TWI is both good and bad - due to the uncredited influence of BGL and the over credit of VPW. Shows a lot of thinking and heart..
To Linda Z, Year2027 and others -
I don't mind paying for a Bible Class --
The Bible is free to read
I can go to Church for free and hear the sermon or teaching and a lot of Churches have additional meetings besides Sunday church
I could have just gone to twig and branch, however I was immediately interested in taking PFAL because I liked the title, and I wanted to be like the other "grads"
Paying for classes is not paying for the Word of God, as you already have it in the Bible, it's paying for books, and it pays for the research time and public time of the teacher. He takes time away from work in order to do this. And I don't mind paying.
I like BG Leonard - calling it gifts of the Spirt. I bet he and followers don't say - "All nine all of the time" That was arrogant and inaccurate as no one can be in fellowship "all of the time" (especially the abusive people).
The word "manifestation" implies man-made effort. If God doesn't give you Word of Knowledge - you use your own common sense. I bet BG's group doesn't have "leaders" telling you what to do because God doesn't "waste" revelation!! (yikes - that used to get me when I was in TWI)
Your point should be made repeatedly. It's not one I've tried to ignore, but I'm always glad to hear it stated, and glad to state it:
The issue of plagiarism being established, the real question becomes, "what does this do to the quality of that which is taught?" The accuracy (or inaccuracy) of what was taught exists independently of whether someone else deserves credit for the words, phrases or paragraphs.
I could look at the phrase: "The Word of God is the Will of God," and approach it several ways. I could say, "that was a favorite expression of Wierwille's." I could say, "Wierwille copied that expression from Leonard." Or I could say "that's a true statement."
None of those statements are wrong (in my opinion). I would be right, regardless of how I approached that phrase. But each approach serves a different purpose. And the purpose of appreciating the wisdom of the Bible is best served by the last approach, "that is a true statement." It is true regardless of the fact that Wierwille said it. It is true regardless of the fact that Leonard said it first.
Of course, some nonsense should never be plagiarized...
quote:Hitler, making reference to attempts on his life, declared: "No man can destroy me before I have completed the work I was raised up to perform." This was true. He was a man of destiny, predestined to fulfill the prophecies of the Scriptures relative to God's judgments being poured out upon the sinning nations. So also in the days of Sennacherib. However, in both cases, the avenger went beyond his allotted task, defying the Almighty in doing so. In both cases these leaders were cut off for doing so.
I guess Leonard believes Hitler should have stopped at 3 million Jews. I don't know. Hitler: God's Avenger.
That may seem kinda anti-Semitic to some folks. As if were God's will to wipe out millions of Jews at the hands of Hitler.
-------------------------------------------
The more I read some of Leonard's stuff the more I see how he influcenced Wierwille. It seems that some terms used by TWI were coined or previously taught by Leonard - like "gift ministry".
quote:"I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE that any person who has received (or will receive) the Baptism of the Spirit, and the Spiritual Gifts, will be led into his/her gift ministry during the two-weeks course;" (B.G. Leonard)
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
When we are discussing Wierwille's plagerism, supporters of the godliness and "accuracy" of PFAL itself often chime in with "reminders" that Wierwille's plagerism does not affect the content of the class itself.
That isn't the issue. The supposeded accuracy and godly worth of PFAL isn't what is being addressed when allegations of plagerism come up.
The point of spotlighting plagerism by Wierwille is to show how this reflects on his character, not his self-proclaimed research skills.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
quote:When we are discussing Wierwille's plagerism, supporters of the godliness and "accuracy" of PFAL itself often chime in with "reminders" that Wierwille's plagerism does not affect the content of the class itself.
Yes this often happens, the same as when someone starts a discussion of the good stuff. Some of us will chime in with the same kind of "yes, but..." as we see here in this thread.
Statement: "Wierwille Plagiarized Lenard and Stiles"
Reply: "Yes, but that does not mean it was wrong."
Statement: "Folks got delivered via PFAL"
Reply: "Yes but, that does not mean it is all doctrinally correct"
Funny how it works both ways, huh?
Oak, I know that this can be annoying at times but perhaps it brings some "balance" to the discussion. What do ya think?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
I think there is a sweet heart behind what you are saying.
But the guy who had his Bible stolen? If someone got saved and that was the end of it -- okay.
But if the old man's address was in the book and the thief came and stole his car, would he have said, "Well, at least he doesn't have to walk anymore."
If VPW was a sweet little minister who lacked the skills to put together a church and stole someone elses work and it got people saved I could stop at your post and say yeah, she's right, the heck with things. VPW made a mistake and some good cane out of it.
But it was bigger than that; VPW stole the man's lifetime work, then started a ministry to abuse people. So, we got saved and were immediately escourted in to depravity, abuse and oppression.
VPW was the counterfiet sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ.
There is a difference.
IMO
VPW made a calculated decision of evil and evil was the result. Any good came via Leonard's hard work and because God loved us.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 08, 2003 at 16:01.]
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Dot Matrix
Hahahahaha
You are on a roll tonight!
Hahahaha
Lol
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Dot Matrix
Raf
Are you eating brownies?
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Steve!
Dot, your post about being in BG Leonard's ministry and not docvic's (praise be his name) is perfect. Perfect.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks, it made sense to me. It enabled me to seperate the good from the bad. Without knowledge of the class being Leonard's then we are stuck trying to believe God had to use a sexual predator to help us get saved...
That was just TOO hard to believe...
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excathedra
seriously dottie, thank you, i mean it
?
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Dot Matrix
You are welcome.
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Steve!
Your tagline there, "Intimacy means IMing spouse", I can see that. Holy cr@p, 3 thousand Plus posts?
Get a life!
Ummm, just teasing.
Exie, I won't EVEN comment about your almost 5400 posts!
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excathedra
bite me
?
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Dot Matrix
Ex has a thread called "calling or vocation."
I never had a calling until I started to post...
It's my calling.....
Not a great gift, but it keeps me out of the bars...
(Just kidding, I don't drink
:D-->)
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Dot Matrix
You are in a hot new relationship Steve, so you do more activity in a different room than I do!!
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jardinero
Thanks Dottie! Loved your post. Your loving honesty always provides a great perspective.
Thanks for being you!
J.
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Lightside
Now Dot, if you still have one, go get your blue book, "The Bible tells me so" and read chapter one, "Release from your prisons", in light of your last post.
Enlightening, at the least.
Have been hearing this from believer all around the country.
Since leaving the way, we are being released from a heavy duty prison.
VPW said: "We must believe the Word of God which is truth and them we must know the Son who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. In following God's Word and in knowing His Son, we will not only be free, but we shall be free indeed."
We in the Way, never knew the Son.....
Outcome: Big, Big prison.......
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Linda Z
I don't doubt that BG Leonard was a swell guy, but let me ask this: How much were his classes? Did I read right earlier that they were $150 per and that there were about 30 of them?
If that's the case, I'd say VP copied more from him than material for his books and classes.
I think it was wrong for VPW to charge money for PFAL (they should have let people donate if they wanted to--really donate, not be forced to pay for a class and call it a donation), and, I think it also was wrong for BG Leonard.
I've no reason to doubt that BG Leonard was sincere, but I believe if someone has a genuine ministry, he or she doesn't have to charge for ministering and shouldn't.
Did George Mueller charge the orphans for the food he gave them? Why should anyone charge, then, for the "bread of life"?
Linda Z
PS. I have a pretty laissez faire attitude toward the offshoots, but those that are carrying on the twi tradition of taping class after class and charging money for them and expecting people to spend half their lives sitting on their a$$es staring at a tv screen are missing the boat.
If ya ask me. the sponteneity of really walking with God and serving people where they live instead of expecting them to come to you is a whole lot more exciting!
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Linda Z
Before I went to my first twi fellowship I went for a while to a little church that had a lot of very sweet, loving people in its congregation (despite an obnoxious, hellfire-preaching minister). One day this little old man (he looked about 95) stood up to share something during the Wed. night prayer fellowship.
He said, "I left my Bible on the front seat of my car while I ran an errand, and someone stole it. They shouldn't have stolen it, but I'm glad they did. I hope they read it and get saved."
That's how I feel about the VPW plagiarism stuff. He shouldn't have done it, definitely, but if those he stole from were so sure of the deliverance in their messages, I think they should have been happy to have it spread further.
To me it's sorta like that "I praise God whether Christ be preached in sincerity or out of contention" verse.
Just a thought.
Linda
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Mike
Linda Z,
I think you're on the right track here. Others should try and bring in the love of God to this discussion like you just did.
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CircleGame
Some comments:
Dot - thank you for this thread - it sure is interesting!! I loved your long post about why TWI is both good and bad - due to the uncredited influence of BGL and the over credit of VPW. Shows a lot of thinking and heart..
To Linda Z, Year2027 and others -
I don't mind paying for a Bible Class --
The Bible is free to read
I can go to Church for free and hear the sermon or teaching and a lot of Churches have additional meetings besides Sunday church
I could have just gone to twig and branch, however I was immediately interested in taking PFAL because I liked the title, and I wanted to be like the other "grads"
Paying for classes is not paying for the Word of God, as you already have it in the Bible, it's paying for books, and it pays for the research time and public time of the teacher. He takes time away from work in order to do this. And I don't mind paying.
I like BG Leonard - calling it gifts of the Spirt. I bet he and followers don't say - "All nine all of the time" That was arrogant and inaccurate as no one can be in fellowship "all of the time" (especially the abusive people).
The word "manifestation" implies man-made effort. If God doesn't give you Word of Knowledge - you use your own common sense. I bet BG's group doesn't have "leaders" telling you what to do because God doesn't "waste" revelation!! (yikes - that used to get me when I was in TWI)
Great thread everyone!!
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Raf
Linda Z,
Your point should be made repeatedly. It's not one I've tried to ignore, but I'm always glad to hear it stated, and glad to state it:
The issue of plagiarism being established, the real question becomes, "what does this do to the quality of that which is taught?" The accuracy (or inaccuracy) of what was taught exists independently of whether someone else deserves credit for the words, phrases or paragraphs.
I could look at the phrase: "The Word of God is the Will of God," and approach it several ways. I could say, "that was a favorite expression of Wierwille's." I could say, "Wierwille copied that expression from Leonard." Or I could say "that's a true statement."
None of those statements are wrong (in my opinion). I would be right, regardless of how I approached that phrase. But each approach serves a different purpose. And the purpose of appreciating the wisdom of the Bible is best served by the last approach, "that is a true statement." It is true regardless of the fact that Wierwille said it. It is true regardless of the fact that Leonard said it first.
Thanks for the reminder.
Raf
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Raf
Of course, some nonsense should never be plagiarized...
I guess Leonard believes Hitler should have stopped at 3 million Jews. I don't know. Hitler: God's Avenger.
Sick.
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Goey
Hmm?
That may seem kinda anti-Semitic to some folks. As if were God's will to wipe out millions of Jews at the hands of Hitler.
-------------------------------------------
The more I read some of Leonard's stuff the more I see how he influcenced Wierwille. It seems that some terms used by TWI were coined or previously taught by Leonard - like "gift ministry".
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Oakspear
When we are discussing Wierwille's plagerism, supporters of the godliness and "accuracy" of PFAL itself often chime in with "reminders" that Wierwille's plagerism does not affect the content of the class itself.
That isn't the issue. The supposeded accuracy and godly worth of PFAL isn't what is being addressed when allegations of plagerism come up.
The point of spotlighting plagerism by Wierwille is to show how this reflects on his character, not his self-proclaimed research skills.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is
Oakspear
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Goey
By Oakspear:
Yes this often happens, the same as when someone starts a discussion of the good stuff. Some of us will chime in with the same kind of "yes, but..." as we see here in this thread.
Statement: "Wierwille Plagiarized Lenard and Stiles"
Reply: "Yes, but that does not mean it was wrong."
Statement: "Folks got delivered via PFAL"
Reply: "Yes but, that does not mean it is all doctrinally correct"
Funny how it works both ways, huh?
Oak, I know that this can be annoying at times but perhaps it brings some "balance" to the discussion. What do ya think?
Goey
"Most of my fondest memories in TWI never really happened"
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Dot Matrix
Linda
I think there is a sweet heart behind what you are saying.
But the guy who had his Bible stolen? If someone got saved and that was the end of it -- okay.
But if the old man's address was in the book and the thief came and stole his car, would he have said, "Well, at least he doesn't have to walk anymore."
If VPW was a sweet little minister who lacked the skills to put together a church and stole someone elses work and it got people saved I could stop at your post and say yeah, she's right, the heck with things. VPW made a mistake and some good cane out of it.
But it was bigger than that; VPW stole the man's lifetime work, then started a ministry to abuse people. So, we got saved and were immediately escourted in to depravity, abuse and oppression.
VPW was the counterfiet sent to make sure those that were looking were rendered impotent shortly after finding Christ.
There is a difference.
IMO
VPW made a calculated decision of evil and evil was the result. Any good came via Leonard's hard work and because God loved us.
[This message was edited by Dot Matrix on November 08, 2003 at 16:01.]
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Dot Matrix
P.S.
My present Baptist church runs seminars all the time and there is ALWAYS a registration fee.
I do not mind paying for a class.
Church was free, fellowship is free, but I can understand charging for a seminar or class.
Just my opinion.
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diazbro
I'm not so sure that VPW is off the
hook simply by suggesting that because he taught what some feel to be right-on stuff that this somehow makes his acts of plagiarism
insignificant. This is like saying that a person who steals only precious art is somehow not really a criminal since he has good taste.
Vic made money off those books and classes by claiming to be the originator of that material.
He lied and deceived and put his baggage on someone's train and got a free ride out of it.
Hold Vic responsible for his plagiarism and separately examine the quality (or lack thereof) of the content of Leonard & Stiles).
Frankly I'm not sure that thats even "right-on"
but I'm certainly willing to give it a more
serious consideration since they are presumably
the original authors of the material presented.
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