Just yesterday I was listening to an old SNS tape and heard Dr talking about the ?Mountaintop Checkbook.? He said on that tape that he forgot where he had ?picked up? the ideas for it, but he DID ADMIT that he got those ideas from elsewhere. He admitted that he did not ?originate? them, whatever that means.
This is probably the one hundredth such admission on tape I?ve heard, not to mention the book and magazine versions of same.
If Dr had not mentioned BG Leonard, none of us would have ever heard of him. Dr admitted that it was BG that helped him a lot in various aspects of the class.
Anyone who thinks Dr committed plagiarism, in the face of SO MANY of Dr?s admissions of finding the material, either was not paying attention or has selective memory.
I see your continual plagiarism charges to be a hysterical desperation to condemn. Your religion of hate will not do you ANY good!
Dot Matrix is one of the most loving people I've had the privilege to encounter. Accusations of religion of hate are completely WRONG!!!!!!
Perhaps some people only see what they want to see while they disregard some people's experiences of hurt and pain. It's idolatry of a man that makes some people so cold-hearted and accusative.
You're back! How's the apartment? We were thinking of you in light of the fires.
Mike, your argument does not stand up in court.
And Mike, VPW did convey the message that while he learned from other men, their work was so flawed it took divine revelation from God for VPW to deliver the real truth....
I don't think hate has anything to do with it. Coming to terms with just how badly we were burned by "the ministry" is the way to heal and move on...everyone at their own pace...
quote: Anyone who thinks Dr committed plagiarism, in the face of SO MANY of Dr?s admissions of finding the material, either was not paying attention or has selective memory.
I used to have a similar opinion as this. Then Rafael explained the specific details to me with very sound reasoning from a professional who knows his trade as to why it does amount to plagiarism. The fact that VPW mentioned B.G. Leonard and E.W. Bullinger in his teachings doesn't negate this fact in the least.
Face it chief. Your 'father in the Word' committed plagiarism, despite whatever truths he might have taught. Your blind obedience and loyalty to VPW is at best irrelevent to and at worst a detriment to any objective and rational opinion you might have on the matter.
And if the 'One True God' is the source for this 'God breathed' factor of PFAL, then all I have to say to that is your deity is seriously f'd up. Or, to paraphrase George Carlin, "This isn't the kind of stuff that belongs on a resume of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of crap that you'd get from an office temp with a bad attitude! ... And in any decently run universe, this guy would be out on his all-powerful a** a long time ago."
You should educate yourself on Plagiarism before making the claim,
quote:I see your continual plagiarism charges to be a hysterical desperation to condemn. Your religion of hate will not do you ANY good!
I don't think you KNOW what it is. Victor Wierwille did NOT clearly acknowledge the source of his information. Saying something in a tape does not make it right. What makes it right, is accurate footnotes. EVERY place that he references someone's work. Privately the staff at HQ knew it was plagiarism. You seem to be one of the few individuals in the TWI/exTWI community that is unaware of it. And YET, you insist spewing statements like, "your religion of hate" to individuals that are just stating facts that are true. Below is a link to a university website. You can go to Google and get plenty more. I would look in the mirror to find out who really has an "hysterical desperation."
quote: Plagiarism is using others' ideas and words without clearly acknowledging the source of that information.
quote:Anyone who thinks Dr committed plagiarism, in the face of SO MANY of Dr?s admissions of finding the material, either was not paying attention or has selective memory.
...I see your continual plagiarism charges to be a hysterical desperation to condemn. Your religion of hate will not do you ANY good!
I see you have computer privilleges at the nut house again.
He took another man's work and put his name on it, he did not even change the name of the characters in the class.
Mike, I thought we agreed not to talk to each other. I am off of your threads and you can stay off of mine.
Once again, DO NOT SPEAK TO ME and I will not to you.
I do very well know what plagiarism is. It occurs in the academic environment and in the marketplace. When it comes to the way of a Father with His family it has no place, because God is the true owner of all. This is not recognized in the marketplace and in academic institutions. I do recognize it.
I don?t believe Dr was competing in the academic realm, nor was he competing in the marketplace. When it does come to that marketplace, Dr most certainly BOOSTED the sales of Keyon, Bullinger, and Leonard. None of those guys had the believing or know-how to distribute their works to the many thousands of 1970?s hippies that Dr reached.
The purpose of Dr collecting (by revelation) and correcting (by revelation) the materials that God had inspired in others was to BLESS US! I did get blessed.
To hold Dr to academic standards is ludicrous. The academic standards are there to keep in line a bunch of God rejecters. Dr blessed us with a wonderful collection of truths for our own benefit. To say that tape admissions aren?t enough, but you also have to bend over and kiss butt of God rejecters is hysterical desperation. He DID put it in writing, but I?m sure someone can find a way that?s not enough too.
The very idea that ?origination? should be worshipped is devilish. No one originates anything that?s good. It all comes from God. If anyone has a new idea, it?s from God, and they didn?t originate it at all. Originality is an illusion that?s fostered in the devil?s world, but it has no place in God?s family.
Dr often stated ?I didn?t write the book!? and I know he often downplayed the idea of origination. He was totally honest and up front with us, and any one of us could have looked deeper and objected then, but all were silent. All these recently acquired standards of scholarship, and its rules and regulations demonstrate to me a desperation to find a villain to take all the blame.
I thank God for Dr?s work of putting it all together.
Mike- AS one mike to another you need to get some help dude! HONESTLY if you would have taken the time to get to know Dot you would never say such a thing. It is unfortunate for you that you will never get that chance now, but you brought it on yourself. It is your loss perhaps when you look in that mirror you will learn from this mistake.
We're supposed to be a FAMILY, not an academic institution.
I have a message of good cheer for the family: God succeeded in His work with Dr to bless us FAR MORE than we could ever guess. God gave us His WORD in a far more powerful way than antiquity could.
We could fuss over what did NOT go right back then, or we can celebrate God's success in blessing us.
To bring up the subject of "origination" to cloud this wonderful truth of God's success is not good.
We have better things to discuss than piddly "origination" issues, or ?who poked whom."
No amount of focus on sex or plagiarism will ever bring healing, only more suffering.
Only by focusing on God and His Son via HIS Word will bring deliverance.
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Roy
I understand WHY you do not want to judge, but there is nothing wrong with being a fruit inspector.
Mathew 7: 15-20
15. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17. Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
One man brother Leonard had a generous ministry of helping God's people.
Another used the first's class to entice people to give him money, power, worship and lurid sex both by seduction and force.
You do not need a background in agriculture to look over the fruit...
Roy, I do not expect you to agree with my posts.
But being as you seem to still be very open to learning, you may want to get some of Leonard's books, I think you would enjoy them.
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Mike
Dot,
Just yesterday I was listening to an old SNS tape and heard Dr talking about the ?Mountaintop Checkbook.? He said on that tape that he forgot where he had ?picked up? the ideas for it, but he DID ADMIT that he got those ideas from elsewhere. He admitted that he did not ?originate? them, whatever that means.
This is probably the one hundredth such admission on tape I?ve heard, not to mention the book and magazine versions of same.
If Dr had not mentioned BG Leonard, none of us would have ever heard of him. Dr admitted that it was BG that helped him a lot in various aspects of the class.
Anyone who thinks Dr committed plagiarism, in the face of SO MANY of Dr?s admissions of finding the material, either was not paying attention or has selective memory.
I see your continual plagiarism charges to be a hysterical desperation to condemn. Your religion of hate will not do you ANY good!
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diazbro
Mike said:
This is probably the one hundredth such admission on tape I?ve heard, not to mention the book and magazine versions of same.
>>
Dude it doesn't matter. Verbal attribution
is NOT sufficient. All scholarly and academic
works MUST be presented to a publisher with
the implicit understanding that all "borrowed"
ideas ,even paraphrased ones, need to be acknowledged in writing in compliance with
the format of the paper/style (Chicago,etc).
NOT to do so is plagiarism and will get your
a$$ booted from any reasonable institution/
university in the land. That you don't know
this is your problem.
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Nottawayfer
Dot Matrix is one of the most loving people I've had the privilege to encounter. Accusations of religion of hate are completely WRONG!!!!!!
Perhaps some people only see what they want to see while they disregard some people's experiences of hurt and pain. It's idolatry of a man that makes some people so cold-hearted and accusative.
Laughter is a tranquilizer with no side effects.
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karmicdebt
Mike,
You're back! How's the apartment? We were thinking of you in light of the fires.
Mike, your argument does not stand up in court.
And Mike, VPW did convey the message that while he learned from other men, their work was so flawed it took divine revelation from God for VPW to deliver the real truth....
I don't think hate has anything to do with it. Coming to terms with just how badly we were burned by "the ministry" is the way to heal and move on...everyone at their own pace...
Peace
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GarthP2000
Smikeol,
I used to have a similar opinion as this. Then Rafael explained the specific details to me with very sound reasoning from a professional who knows his trade as to why it does amount to plagiarism. The fact that VPW mentioned B.G. Leonard and E.W. Bullinger in his teachings doesn't negate this fact in the least.
Face it chief. Your 'father in the Word' committed plagiarism, despite whatever truths he might have taught. Your blind obedience and loyalty to VPW is at best irrelevent to and at worst a detriment to any objective and rational opinion you might have on the matter.
And if the 'One True God' is the source for this 'God breathed' factor of PFAL, then all I have to say to that is your deity is seriously f'd up. Or, to paraphrase George Carlin, "This isn't the kind of stuff that belongs on a resume of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of crap that you'd get from an office temp with a bad attitude! ... And in any decently run universe, this guy would be out on his all-powerful a** a long time ago."
You just can't win here, pal.
Prophet Emeritus of THE,
and Wandering CyberUU Hippie,
Garth P.
www.gapstudioweb.com
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pawtucket
Mike,
You should educate yourself on Plagiarism before making the claim,
I don't think you KNOW what it is. Victor Wierwille did NOT clearly acknowledge the source of his information. Saying something in a tape does not make it right. What makes it right, is accurate footnotes. EVERY place that he references someone's work. Privately the staff at HQ knew it was plagiarism. You seem to be one of the few individuals in the TWI/exTWI community that is unaware of it. And YET, you insist spewing statements like, "your religion of hate" to individuals that are just stating facts that are true. Below is a link to a university website. You can go to Google and get plenty more. I would look in the mirror to find out who really has an "hysterical desperation."
From this Plagiarism Article
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Dot Matrix
I see you have computer privilleges at the nut house again.
He took another man's work and put his name on it, he did not even change the name of the characters in the class.
Mike, I thought we agreed not to talk to each other. I am off of your threads and you can stay off of mine.
Once again, DO NOT SPEAK TO ME and I will not to you.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks and (((()))) to Paw, Garth, Wayfernot, Karm and Diazbro!
We cannot have an intellectual debate with Mike as he comes to the debate unarmed.
Its okay, soon one of his nurses will take the computer away.
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Dot Matrix
Roy dear,
Private Topic
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Dot Matrix
(((ROY)))
Check PT again please
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Mike
Paw et all,
I do very well know what plagiarism is. It occurs in the academic environment and in the marketplace. When it comes to the way of a Father with His family it has no place, because God is the true owner of all. This is not recognized in the marketplace and in academic institutions. I do recognize it.
I don?t believe Dr was competing in the academic realm, nor was he competing in the marketplace. When it does come to that marketplace, Dr most certainly BOOSTED the sales of Keyon, Bullinger, and Leonard. None of those guys had the believing or know-how to distribute their works to the many thousands of 1970?s hippies that Dr reached.
The purpose of Dr collecting (by revelation) and correcting (by revelation) the materials that God had inspired in others was to BLESS US! I did get blessed.
To hold Dr to academic standards is ludicrous. The academic standards are there to keep in line a bunch of God rejecters. Dr blessed us with a wonderful collection of truths for our own benefit. To say that tape admissions aren?t enough, but you also have to bend over and kiss butt of God rejecters is hysterical desperation. He DID put it in writing, but I?m sure someone can find a way that?s not enough too.
The very idea that ?origination? should be worshipped is devilish. No one originates anything that?s good. It all comes from God. If anyone has a new idea, it?s from God, and they didn?t originate it at all. Originality is an illusion that?s fostered in the devil?s world, but it has no place in God?s family.
Dr often stated ?I didn?t write the book!? and I know he often downplayed the idea of origination. He was totally honest and up front with us, and any one of us could have looked deeper and objected then, but all were silent. All these recently acquired standards of scholarship, and its rules and regulations demonstrate to me a desperation to find a villain to take all the blame.
I thank God for Dr?s work of putting it all together.
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WhiteDove
Mike- AS one mike to another you need to get some help dude! HONESTLY if you would have taken the time to get to know Dot you would never say such a thing. It is unfortunate for you that you will never get that chance now, but you brought it on yourself. It is your loss perhaps when you look in that mirror you will learn from this mistake.
Without Coffee
I Would Have No Personality At All
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karmicdebt
it's "et al.," professor...
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excathedra
?
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RottieGrrrl
When people say stuff like "I didn't write the book!" or, "God said it not me," I usually want to punch them in the face.
BECAUSE they are usually twisting scripture and trying to make it sound like it came from God, and it's not their own private, narrow minded opinion.
...Ain't no grave, gonna hold this body down..when I hear that trumpet sound...
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Steve!
Mike - YOU, sir, are a DISGRACE.
( * )
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Mike
We're supposed to be a FAMILY, not an academic institution.
I have a message of good cheer for the family: God succeeded in His work with Dr to bless us FAR MORE than we could ever guess. God gave us His WORD in a far more powerful way than antiquity could.
We could fuss over what did NOT go right back then, or we can celebrate God's success in blessing us.
To bring up the subject of "origination" to cloud this wonderful truth of God's success is not good.
We have better things to discuss than piddly "origination" issues, or ?who poked whom."
No amount of focus on sex or plagiarism will ever bring healing, only more suffering.
Only by focusing on God and His Son via HIS Word will bring deliverance.
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QamiQazi
So Mike, why do you think VPW focused on those two things so much? Take those away and you'd have to wonder what he did with most of his time.
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insurgent
Once again a perfectly good thread ruined. Please don't feed the monster anymore.
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QamiQazi
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Raf
Insurgent:
You won a convert.
:)-->
Raf
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excathedra
?
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excathedra
sorry dottie. hey that is so cool about someone sending you BG Leonard's book !!!!!
?
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